Bragg walks away from basketball.
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@jaybate-1-0 Right, I think Bragg is one of those folks that is highly dependent on weed. Some stories/rumors out there about his enjoyment of the substance. A bit like Greene. Personally, I think pot is a scourge much like alcohol. Lots of carnage to families and lives due to these substances. But some (most) can handle it fine and use it in a reasonable fashion. Some though have addictive personalities. If it’s something else with Bragg I’d be surprised.
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I want to pursue this with you, because you and I share a distrust of ingested, mind altering substances, like alcohol and pot, but, in contrast to me, you seem to be able to recognize behaviors from televised athletic performances that signal one player is enhanced, or unaffected by pot, while another is adversely affected, or likes it too much. I just don’t see these distinctions on the floor on television. All I see is a guy that gained 40-60 pounds and played like he was totally unfamiliar with his body after the weight gain, somewhat reminiscent of Jeff Withey before they let him slim back down. THAT weight things seems apparent to me. But you see, and confidently, too, that pot explains the rapid decline in his abilities. When I consider Bragg and pot, my hypothetical assumption would be that he had been smoking it for years, and had played as well as other players reputedly have under its influence. I’m not doubting you here. I’m trying to learn what is the tell you are seeing. I’m getting older and it wouldn’t surprise me that I miss this sort of thing. Just trying to figure out the tell.
FYI, I tried to use bold on the portions of your post below I responded to, and tried to fashion an arrow by my response.
HighEliteMajor said:
Right, I think Bragg is one of those folks that is highly dependent on weed.
–>Did he appear to you to suddenly grow dependent during that summer before his last season? Or did it appear to you that this was a pre-KU issue that Self recruited him with believing he could help Bragg resolve?
Some stories/rumors out there about his enjoyment of the substance.
–>Anything in particular other than reputed stories relating to off-court issues involving him and Josh Jackson?
Personally, I think pot is a scourge much like alcohol.
–>I agree about alcohol and would expect something similar with pot when legalized and accepted the way alcohol is, but I have not yet read any research confirming this expectation.
Thanks for weighting in and thanks in advance for any further insights you can share.
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I hesitate to say this, but I heard rumors Bragg had an issue with pills too. I really hope they were just that.
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@jaybate-1.0 well said dude, well said.
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While there is some evidence that marijuana might have some beneficial effect for things like pain and nausea control for conditions such as those resulting from chemotherapy and also conditions such as anxiety and bi-polar disorder, there is absolutely no doubt that it affects the mental and physical characteristics negatively.
Obviously different individuals will be affected differently, some more and some less, but the negative effect is undeniable. We have all seen people high on pot, does anyone believe that that individual’s mental and physical capabilities are enhanced? The answer is no, the “high” state results in a more “mellow” person with much slower mental and physical reactions and responses. Granted that the effect might be considerably less for am athlete in top physical form but evidence suggests that generally the effect of pot/marijuana will be negative with the only variable being the extent. The first link above describes in detail why people might think it is helping, but is really just changing perception, which might be fine for pain or anxiety management but not for athletic performance.
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@jaybate-1-0 Initially, I do not think that I am “able to recognize behaviors from televised athletic performances that signal one player is enhanced, or unaffected by pot, while another is adversely affected, or likes it too much.” That appears to be a premise of your inquiry.
What I think I do sometimes relatively effectively is take evidence, and reach a reasonable conclusion. Admittedly when you do not have all of the information, there is always varying degrees of speculation. Even someone that sees a video of a person being shot by another speculates to a decree because they cannot actually see the bullet. We take our experiences, the info we have, and then the result, and we reach speculative conclusion. Much like when you theorize or postulate. Puzzle pieces match up.
And here, the puzzle pieces seem to fit. When I see what @FarmerJayhawk mentioned about pills, it’s not surprising that something else could be in the mix. We don’t know for sure if that’s true, of course. But one thing we do know is that folks that abuse marijuana many times move to more significant and harmful drugs. Would not be a huge leap of faith.
When players step away, or someone takes a leave of absence, it could be many things. It could be cancer, it could be a dying grandma, etc. Many things.
But we do have some pieces fitting together -1) Bong in the room, 2) Decreased performance (meaning, the guy got worse), 3) Self not playing him, 4) the transfer, 5) the “chatter” about the affinity for weed (which I heard from have a kid attending KU, from a professional colleague who had some “insight” shall we say, and the normal social media stuff), 6) stepping away from the game (leave of absence), 7) no explanation given for the leave of absence, which signals a personal struggle (vs. “leaving to attend to a family matter”, etc.).
And yes, it is certainly possible that substance abuse issues manifest themselves at some point other than the exact initial point of abuse (your reference as to why it might have become more impactful after his freshman season). In fact, as the abuse and reliance deepens, the likelihood of the collapse increases.
But I think we’re all smart enough to know that “weed” might not be it. It could be something else that precipitated his leave of absence, or a combination of factors. We just have zero information on other possibilities, which permits the arrows to more reasonably point to weed (substance abuse).
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Thanks.
Glad I wasn’t missing something.
I have never met, nor read of, a pot user that suddenly became nonlinearly less functional only after several years of pot use.
You mention pot as a drug leading to other drugs. Is your dot connecting suggesting other drugs to be at the root of his problems?
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The question is whether Bragg has a personality that lends itself to addiction - be it pot, pills, alcohol, or something else. That is the danger for the young man, moreso than any argument we can have about the morality/danger of weed.
There is a certain percentage of people that have addictive personalities. For those people, it is always a risk that they may become addicted, whether it is to a substance, an activity, etc. They are always chasing and relying on that high.
I am concerned that Bragg may be one of those people, and I hope that he gets the help that he needs so that he doesn’t wind up as an alcoholic (whether functional or not), serial drug abuser, or otherwise. This isn’t really a basketball thing. This is this young man’s whole life we are talking about, even if he never takes another jumpshot or grabs another rebound.
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@jaybate-1-0 I think you are presuming his use of marijuana previously. Even with that, your premise presupposes that use, abuse and addiction can’t progress and get worse. Folks that use more and more marijuana become detached and more interested in pot, than the balance of their life. Same with other substances. So no, I’m not using other drugs as the dot connector. I am saying that (as a possibility) his marijuana use, solely, could be the issue an that it got to a crisis or critical level.
@justanotherfan Right on there. Excellent points. There are folks with those personalities and they are much different that those that are not.
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Vin Baker, who made almost 50 million dollars playing basketball is now a barista at Starbucks. Pot (and also alcohol) was his downfall. He admits it.
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Could it be that you are presuming pot is the issue and so setting the condition of this discourse fundamentally on that presumption?
Have you (or I) adequately characterized and documented pot dependence, to make it sufficiently meaningful to Bragg’s case? Or anyone else’s? I’m not sure on reconsideration.
In terms of medical science, pot dependence is reputedly quite unlike alcohol addiction, or heroin addiction. Many argue against it being an addictive substance at all. What does it mean to say pot dependence? Many none addictive issues, like massive weight gain, and weight gain supplements, are dots. Another dot is mental stress from a star confronting less than star success. Another dot is education and campus life waking a person up to a world full of more than basketball. These are REAL dots, not like reputed, vaguely defined pot dependence.
Could pot dependence not be Bragg’s problem at all? If there were a significant chance pot weren’t his actual problem, but just an excuse for something else, would it be okay to “presume” and explore that possibility without suggesting there is something flawed about one presumption, but not with another?
Could it be you are then compounding your original presumption by presuming another something that appears improbable? that a college basketball player that you presume to be pot dependent, what ever that exactly means in Bragg’s case, or at least somehow pot afflicted, is also presumed to have grown suddennly so, when pot usage among highschool basketball players from Bragg’s apparent socio-economic background is reputedly significant?
Which should we presume? That Bragg grew suddenly pot dependent at KU, or grew so over time? One or the other happened, based on your presumption, and IMHO it matters, because in one case a pot free kid came to Kansas basketball culture and got suddenly pot dependent from the pot available in our basketball culture. In that case KU WOULD SEEM TO HAVE SOME MORAL/ETHICAL obligation to stand by him -and help him, because as you indicate some just are vulnerable to pot dependence/affliction, others are not. KU Leadership realizing that would seem to have some responsibility to help Bragg. If he could stay pot free, or pot independent in his home culture, but not at KU, then KU needs to clean up the pot, right? Alternatively, if the pot dependence/affliction came with him to KU basketball cultur then KU would seem to bear less responsibility.
And here I am presuming that universities and their basketball programs should have some responsibility for the basketball pot culture they bring teenagers into. Not total, but some.
When I entered into your chain of presumptions I tried to introduce more probability to one link of your chain of presumptions to make your dot connecting a little stronger. I believe I pushed your presumptive dot connecting toward greater, not lesser fit. But nothing is certain life but death, taxes and and at least some presumption in analytic discussions of presumed pot dependence.
Rock Chalk!
What do you think the odds are that a KU basketball player from Braggs background of playing the game
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P.S.: Asserting it appears more likely for pot dependence to symptomize over time than suddenly is a logical inference qualified in terms of probability, not certainty, as based on my observations of other persons. You were apparently presuming I was doing otherwise. So: no I was not presuming at all on that count. My anecdotal survey may be unintentionally biased in sample, but presuming? Nope.
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Whatever the cause, both former Jayhawks Bragg and C J Giles have turned out to be huge losses to the program. Both players gifted with super talent and gifted with the opportunity to play meaningful roles in a historically monumental site; but self destructive habits seem to have blitzed their potentials. For decades, Jayhawk Hoops has moved forward as a type of pressure cooker which elevates the lives of many while concurrently boiling a few others to a state of mush. I feel for those kids…and wonder: if I possessed such tremendous potential, would I have held up under such heat? Quite possibly I would not have done so. Maybe even the likes of a Josh Jackson might have crashed and burned if he had faced such intense KU Hoops Heat for 4 challenging seasons. Roy and Bill are two very hardy individuals, maintaining their dominance year after scorching year. Life in the KU Basketball Program offers up a very challenging test for the creme de la creme.
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Y’all need to chill on the pot talk. It is an irrelevant topic, ESPECIALLY in the context of sports. You have to be naive if you think the majority pro athlete’s don’t smoke. I mean we’re talking about college right? The place you can get weed from any dorm, frat, apartment on campus. Do you really think that smoking hinders players success, the 08 champs would beg to differ.
Times are changing, even the ol NBA commissioner gets it. Here’s the link if your curious. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nba.com/amp/league/article/2017/10/25/david-stern-medical-marijuana-al-harrington
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Pierce was a huge pothead. Didn’t seem to hinder him, but maybe he could’ve been greater? Or maybe it leveled him out and allowed him to cope so he could be what he was?
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@jaybate-1-0 This is really pretty easy. Think of it as a pie chart. When speculating on what is the reason for him taking a leave of absence, the biggest slice of pie on the chart is marijuana issues. It’s the info that we have. It’s much like investigating a crime. There may be additional info that flows our way. You ask, “Could pot dependence not be Bragg’s problem at all?” Of course. It could be something completely unrelated, as mentioned before. It could be a drug or drugs more significant. It’s all speculation. The speculative conclusions, again, are based on the info at hand. The speculation that it is something else has no facts to support that conclusion at this moment.
Is it even disputed that folks that are potheads, alcoholics, addicted to meth, etc., as a group, are likely to have lower achievement that those that aren’t?
@RockChalkRedlock There is a big difference between smoking (or drinking) and abuse/dependence. Your assumption is because it is not an issue for some, it might not be an issue for a few. Wildly simplistic. So Y’all need to chill on the irrelevant topic stuff.
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I would argue that the biggest slice of pie with Bragg could be emotional issues (i.e. depression). Maybe he smokes when he’s down because it eases his mind. Perhaps he struggles with anxiety. Those are things I don’t know. But I agree with @jaybate-1-0 that weed could be more of a symptom than the underlying problem.
I talked about addiction initially because I know Bragg has been rumored to drink quite a bit sometimes. But even that could be symptomatic of underlying emotional issues.
This country as a whole hasn’t done well with de-stigmatizing emotional health issues in a way that allows people to get help. One such issue could be addiction. In Bragg’s case, I do not know. For others, substance dependence is a coping mechanism (self medication). Again, with Bragg, this is all just guessing from the outside. If Bragg is taking his time away to get some help for something like that, I applaud the young man for recognizing the issue and getting some help. As much as we in society tend to associate mental health issues with weakness, it takes an incredible amount of strength to recognize and admit that struggle, and then get some help.
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@justanotherfan I acknowledge it could very well be depression. However, when I talk about speculating on the biggest piece of the pie, I’m talking about using facts that we know. What information do you have at the moment that it is depression? There literally is none. Not to say that it might not be that, or that the speculation you suggest isn’t reasonable. I’m just talking the items we know. We do know a bong was found in his room. We do have significant chatter on the pot use. We do have a decline in performance. We do know that Self cut him loose (or, uh … he chose to leave).
We’ve heard no chatter about him being depressed, wanting to return to home, etc. I would speculate that a depressed individual might want to go closer to home (Ohio), not farther (ASU). On other hand, home might be the issue. We don’t know.
The reality is, as someone else mentioned, the answer is probably a combo of things. At the moment, as you mentioned, we’re guessing. My pie chart is just based on the bread crumbs we have so far.
Regardless, we can all hope he’s ok and bounces back as good as ever.
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I agree with your analysis. This is one situation where the Occam’s Razor principle would seem applicable.
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@RockChalkRedlock Read up on Vin Baker.
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Ralster used to be here, but has dropped I guess, but he had some good things to say from a medical perspective of the detrimental effects of pot.
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@HighEliteMajor Estimates range from, I believe, 30% to 75% of people habitually involved in substance abuse (drugs and alcohol) may be suffering from undiagnosed depression and engaged in “self-medication”.
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@mayjay Which came first, the chicken or the egg? Makes sense though.
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We have all talked about how “happy” Bragg seemed even off the court, even as he struggled with his play. Yet his play was uneven and inconsistent. A bong was found in his room. Rumors of drug use and some heavy drinking.
He leaves school, but rather than return home, he goes further away, both from home and from where he was.
When you look at the facts through this lens, that looks more like a potential mental health issue (anxiety? depression?) than substance abuse or dependency.
How many people that “looked” happy turned out to be depressed, anxious or stressed behind closed doors?
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@justanotherfan Ok … I’m not understanding how someone can see more evidence of something when no evidence of something exists. Could it be a mental health issue? Again, sure. But even in what you say the only real evidence is substance abuse. How many people looked happy and are happy?
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Here’s what drugs does to you: http://www.wafb.com/story/36758038/man-asks-deputies-to-unlock-car-gets-busted-for-drugs-inside
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I’m taking everything we know into account.
I’ve talked to mental health professionals over the last few years. One of the things they say is that we often look at the symptom (in Bragg’s case, substance use and possible substance abuse) and conclude that the symptom is the problem. We treat the symptom (substance use and abuse) through AA or other programs, but never deal with the root problem.
That often leads to a person that was previously coping through alcohol or drugs becoming unstable, and then people wonder why this person who “just got sober and had things looking up” had everything suddenly fall apart. It’s because the underlying issue (depression, anxiety, etc.) was never addressed. Just the thing that stuck out that everyone could see.
This knowledge has made me try to be much more aware of that, particularly in an industry (in my case, the legal field) where substance abuse is high and often masks underlying problems. We have to de-stigmatize mental health issues. It’s socially okay to go and get help for drug or alcohol use and abuse, but we poke fun at people that need help for depression, stress, anxiety, etc. That has to change.
Like I said before, I don’t know specifics on Bragg’s situation, but I see signs that suggest he may have some underlying issues that he is masking with drugs and drinking. Should he get help with the drugs and drinking? Of course! But he also needs help with any underlying issues he may have to be sure that the problems are not multiplied when he gets rid of his coping mechanism but feels the same way.
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Here’s a guy who says he’s used substances since he was in 7th grade, made his way to the pros, and it all caught up with him (@jaybate-1-0 ). No mental illness, depression, etc. was noted. (@justanotherfan).
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@HighEliteMajor @justanotherfan
For more information and thoughts regarding substance abuse, addiction, the complex factors involved in this issue, AND in the context of Josh Gordon’s history, you both may wish to read an article dating from last year. It is written by someone with years of experience in the field.
https://scout.com/nfl/browns/Article/Josh-Gordon-Understanding-Addiction-74959557
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Good grief, I’m shocked this thread is still alive. You don’t know shit, and it’s NOT YOUR PROBLEM, people.
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@DanR Isn’t your comment applicable to all threads? Makes me wonder …
