Whiff City
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Newman is an NBA PG. He doesn’t really have a future in the NBA as a 2 because of his size, so I am considering him a PG for this exercise. It actually benefits KU if others consider him a PG as well, because recruits will see a scoring PG at KU, which could lead to some recruiting currency later on. I hope Self has Newman playing on-ball at least 40% of the time, letting him run the show sometimes even with Devonte on the floor.
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I agree that Self has a reputation with PG’s that is hard to overcome when he’s recruiting the very best in the land. Dotson should be a player Self can get though. There has been a significant amount of time and effort placed on securing his commitment.
What is Mike White offering that Self can’t? Mike White certainly has even less of a reputation for putting his players into the NBA.
I would say Devon and his family putting his NBA future in the hands of Mike White is a far riskier move then Bill Self. And while Dotson has seen his stock rise considerably from where it was in the spring I wouldn’t consider him a 1st round type at the moment unless he magically becomes a better athlete and perimeter shooter. I would also question what Florida has put into the league that stands out at the point guard position?
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@BeddieKU23 I’m not going to say one way or another with Devon. - -I’m just going to have that old scenario wait and see approach I guess. - -I mean as is so typical after a visit these guys are going to put out nothing but positive things for their fans to read. - -99-100 they aren’t going to put out anything saying that a recruit says sorry but nope I’m am not interested in your school - -your school sucks or negative material like that. - I’m not saying obviously that’s what Devon said - -I’m not saying he didn’t say a lot of positive things about Florida - -chances are he did -what recruit doesn’t?
Almost any recruit even the recruits after they visit KU have nothing but good things to say about the school, it’s just the way it seems to go after a visit. - -So chances are he did tell this Insider positive things for Florida. -Let’s sit back for a couple of days and just watch - -see, I agree if it does turn out this way - - then I am stumped - -I just don’t get it, but we shall see. But for this guy sounds like he thumping his chest pretty hard about something happening within the week? - - umm I don’t know about all that. - -Something tells me we STILL aren’t in as bad as shape as some may think - might be wrong but. - - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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Let’s think of this like investments. In one case, you have an investor with a long track record, but it’s a record of mediocre returns with your type of product (i.e. PGs), even over a long term (i.e., lots of talent, just a few second round picks, or undrafted free agents after good college careers).
On the other hand, you have an investor with a much shorter high level track record who has never really done much at this level. On the one hand, you’re looking at the unknown. On the other hand, it’s the unknown against a record of underperformance in this particular area. In this situation, Mike White’s lack of history is actually a benefit in a direct competition against Self because he doesn’t have his past shortcomings weighing him down (something White has no doubt pointed out to Dotson and his family).
I’m not saying White is a better coach, obviously. Just that if you’re Dotson and you’re putting your draft future into one program or another, the program that hasn’t produced a first rounder with multiple McDs AAs and collegiate stars may not be your first choice because you can’t even argue that Self hasn’t had talent at the position, or that Self hasn’t had guys play well at the point. They just haven’t translated to the NBA.
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BeddieKU23 said:
I agree that Self has a reputation with PG’s that is hard to overcome when he’s recruiting the very best in the land. Dotson should be a player Self can get though. There has been a significant amount of time and effort placed on securing his commitment.
What is Mike White offering that Self can’t? Mike White certainly has even less of a reputation for putting his players into the NBA.
I would say Devon and his family putting his NBA future in the hands of Mike White is a far riskier move then Bill Self. And while Dotson has seen his stock rise considerably from where it was in the spring I wouldn’t consider him a 1st round type at the moment unless he magically becomes a better athlete and perimeter shooter. I would also question what Florida has put into the league that stands out at the point guard position?
I honestly don’t think it matters much where Dotson goes. Florida has been on him a long time too. All that said it would be a tough miss to swallow, especially since Self/the staff made the choice to go hard after Grimes and Dotson when they could have just as easily pressed on Carey and/or Ayo who I believe KU had a great shot at before slow playing due to Grimes/Dotson.
Honestly if Dotson goes to UF then Grimes becomes a near must land recruit. And I’m hesitant to say that any recruit is must land for KU. KU would obviously move on if Grimes picked UK (he very well might, as UK wants the first to commit of Grimes and Keldon Johnson) but it would be pretty awful when you consider… His mom went to KU, he is an Adidas kid, KU was his third D1 offer/has been on him since forever and he is tremendously talented.
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Good debate. A few more points.
Has Self ever landed a PG that was a sure-thing 1st round pick without his coaching?
Collins- lack of height and weight concerns always limited his stock. That’s why he stayed all 4 years.
Chalmers- wasn’t the primary PG at KU, lacked elite athleticism, left at the right time. Did win NBA titles despite not going in the 1st round.
Selby- injury, suspension, definitely can be argued KU hurt his stock. Definitely didn’t stick around long enough to fix what went wrong. Unfair for Self to be judged based off him. But I understand he will be regardless.
I can’t say he’s ever been given the keys to an elite PG talent to prove otherwise. But he took a no-named 3-4 star PG Frank Mason and molded him into a NPOY.
You mentioned Calipari with his success with the PG’s and frankly most of them would have been drafted highly regardless of landing at Kentucky with Cal. Cal certainly didn’t hurt their stock, if anything he enhanced it. He’s 2nd to none in that regard. When he gets guys with a ton of hype they rarely disappoint.
What bothers me is Self didn’t hurt Andrew Wiggins stock, he still went 1st. Embiid blew up, went top 5 despite injury. Jackson just went top 5 in a loaded draft. He certainly gives the elite every chance to succeed at KU and keep their draft stock high. So I’m stunned that top ranked PG’s choose to go elsewhere despite the opportunity for PT and to be coached by one of the game’s best.
Does Dotson have a 1st round NBA future? I don’t think he does judging him right now. I don’t see the elite size, athleticism, shooting ability that PG’s often have to possess to be drafted in the 1st round. He’s in the same mold as Collins, Chalmers & Selby, even Russel Robinson. I think he’s going to be excellent at the College level and with some development in College could work his way into the 1st round given the right timing.
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Grimes is pretty clearly the superior player in my eyes. He’s more explosive, stronger and a tick better shooter. He’s also the better athlete. Dotson’s vision may be better, but even that I wouldn’t say for certain.
I’m actually a bit surprised that Grimes isn’t a top ten guy in such a thin class. I’m surprised Quickley is ahead of Grimes. I understand why people are high on Garland, but I would have Garland ahead of Jones and Grimes right behind Garland. Grimes just looks like he will be more able to transition to college with his strength and athleticism. Jones is basically a carbon copy of his brother (not that this is a bad thing), but I don’t see how that puts him ahead of those other guys. Perhaps its that Grimes is classified as a 2, but I see him more as a combo guy (particularly because these HS guys all come out handling the ball anyway).
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Agree, its going to be very hard to understand missing on him. Maybe I was little consumed with how confident Slater was saying he was going to KU. I also felt confident in Adidas putting him at KU especially with the way the Zion & Dotson teaming up in Vegas went. But it seems the Dotson’s haven’t been swayed by outside influence and they are making a unbiased decision. I always knew that Florida had developed a great relationship with him but I didn’t think this would potentially end up this way given all that KU has done to land him. Crazy, makes you want to give up on the recruiting all together
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Grimes isn’t top 10 because he didn’t play on the Nike circuit. Nike just has a ton of influence on everything.
He was sick during the 1st eval period and it wasn’t until the later sessions that he proved to everyone that he was still one of the best players in his class. I agree with everything else though, he has the size and athletic ability that is going to translate to College and the NBA…
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Grimes will be a great one, hopefully at KU. Like if KU can’t get Grimes (for all the reasons that have already been mentioned) it makes you wonder who CAN they get.
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BShark said:
Grimes will be a great one, hopefully at KU. Like if KU can’t get Grimes (for all the reasons that have already been mentioned) it makes you wonder who CAN they get.
Exactly, losing on Grimes would put a big dent in where KU falls in the pecking order of recruiting at this point
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jayballer54 said:
@BeddieKU23 I’m not going to say one way or another with Devon. - -I’m just going to have that old scenario wait and see approach I guess. - -I mean as is so typical after a visit these guys are going to put out nothing but positive things for their fans to read. - -99-100 they aren’t going to put out anything saying that a recruit says sorry but nope I’m am not interested in your school - -your school sucks or negative material like that. - I’m not saying obviously that’s what Devon said - -I’m not saying he didn’t say a lot of positive things about Florida - -chances are he did -what recruit doesn’t?
Almost any recruit even the recruits after they visit KU have nothing but good things to say about the school, it’s just the way it seems to go after a visit. - -So chances are he did tell this Insider positive things for Florida. -Let’s sit back for a couple of days and just watch - -see, I agree if it does turn out this way - - then I am stumped - -I just don’t get it, but we shall see. But for this guy sounds like he thumping his chest pretty hard about something happening within the week? - - umm I don’t know about all that. - -Something tells me we STILL aren’t in as bad as shape as some may think - might be wrong but. - - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
Actually this person from the Florida site has been talking about Dotson to Florida for a while now (july) and has said its been all but done since August as well. He says he has intel from the staff/travel ball that are close with the Dotson Family. They all seem to take his intel as legitimate there. Everything I see is he’s either a coach on the AAU scene or connected in some respect to it and has access to these recruits for firsthand information.
Either the media and recruiting sites overstated Dotson’s intentions or Florida was always the favorite and KU being the bigger school overshadowed that fact and we’ve all gotten caught in the fact that Dotson was not KU’s to lose but Florida’s.
We probably got a little too ahead of ourselves with the Zion and Devon pairing in Vegas and maybe at the time all the momentum was KU could get him to commit but that settled and KU had Dotson on campus before Florida for whatever reason. We can visit him all we want but it looks at least how I’m seeing things is Florida has won this battle and this past weekends visit likely sealed it up. If he announces soon we’ll know its Florida.
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@justanotherfan Ok, that makes sense. I simply have no idea on Newman’s level of ballhandling. We were spoiled with Mason. Graham isn’t in that league with the ball.
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Remember that Mario Chalmers did not play PG at KU, RussRob did, but he had to move to PG on the NBA. He did pretty well at his new position but now he seems to be unable to hook up with a team because of his previous injury. I am sure he is pretty much set for life even if he does not play another game in the NBA although you would think there is a team out there that could use him.
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@JayHawkFanToo he signed w/Memphis
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You are correct, I forgot about it. He will be playing with McLemore.
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@JayHawkFanToo and selden
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I’m thinking that we would be seeing some movement in the CB from or about Devon if it indeed was he was going to commit or there was a huge swing in Florida favor wouldn’t w by now - -something?
Or hear something from Devon about his trip to Florida - -I’m not talking about from some Florida insider - -I’m talking about Devon talking about his trip how I went, what he though possible decision date - not some insider giving his input - -Just silence right now. - -ROCK CHALK ALL DY LONG BABY
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Well, just answered my own question from a post of just a few minutes ago.
Article from Zags Blog says Devon is now weighing his options. His dad Dana said the visit with Florida was a good visit. Got the chance to hang around Florida players, he attended a class , two practices , met the academics , met the strength and conditioning and attended the foot ball game Saturday which I read he didn’t stay for the length of the game.
Met with the Coaching staff several times, which they told him he would have the ball in his hands from day one - -as they are losing their starting PG ( Ja"Quan Newton. )- - said they run an up tempo and can see Devon fitting right in.
Also said Devon visited KU last month and KU could be losing a lot including our Pg Graham. - -Said Devon is going to take the weekend off from visits and consider his options & next actions.
It did mention that UCLA , Clemson , & Maryland had shown interest but did not mention anything else about them. - -Sounds like he has visited who he wants and it WILL BE either KU or Florida to me. - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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@jayballer54 Florida coaches meeting with DD again today at school as well as in-home. Sounds like an all out blitz.
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They are not visiting anywhere this weekend as its his mother’s birthday I believe.
If Maryland gets an official visit then we know he hasn’t made his mind up. If he doesn’t he’ll be announcing for Florida.
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@RockkChalkk YA KU was to have an in home last night I think from what I read - -Roberts. - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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See where KU just got a CB for McCormack from Evan Daniels , that’s always good to know - -think we got a legit shot. - - ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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@jayballer54 Three in a row. A few more guys followed with picks for McCormack to KU. Chad Lykins and Dain Ervin. Wonder what they all heard/saw that made them submit the picks.
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@RockkChalkk Ya, I just now seen that, that looks good , somebody has picked something up from somewhere. - - Now as I previously stated earlier that he would not land at Oklahoma St, & still say that, but now to go off what he said about KU after his visit, people was asking why I felt that way - well now not only am I going from the statements he made- -& now picking up CB"S - and for the one’s going off the CB and Oklahoma St - umm ya - -Oklahoma St went from leading in the CB to now last in the CB’S.
I’m still not putting a lot into the CB - BUT - - they do follow the trend of what the way he sounded after his visit to KU. - -To me from what he said about his visit to KU - just sounds like we are in a good spot with him. - -Usually when you start seeing a lot of CB’S when there is smoke - -there is fire. - Somebody has picked up on something. - -We shall see. - - ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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To follow up on McCormack , just picked up our 4th CB of the day for him to land here. - Jerry Meyer just predicted KU- -ummm something up? - - Something must be goin on , someone maybe caught wind of something. - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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@jayballer54 Jerry Meyer is pretty legit, I pay attention to what he picks as he usually makes his own decisions vs just seeing what everyone else does and doing the same thing. This is certainly a good sign.
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@RockkChalkk Well read from the Shiver where we was suppose to visit him today - -maybe something came from that? - -I dunno hope. - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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And yet still ANOTHER CB for KU with McCormack - our 5th today. - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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Jerry Meyer had McCormack going to OSU; this is big positive development for KU, no doubt about it.
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KU has always been in deep with McCormack, good to see some crystal ball action though.
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Things are heating up in another croooootment. The parts they are a movin’.
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sounds great. Big Dave would be a great addition to the team. It also means Doke isn’t coming back (sad face)
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KU Picked up two CB picks for Immanuel Quickley yesterday too. Hmmm.
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I know nothing about recruiting other than Silvio DeSousa is KU’s to lose.
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RockkChalkk said:
KU Picked up two CB picks for Immanuel Quickley yesterday too. Hmmm.
Would have felt better about those if it was Slater or Meyer. Instead it was the whack job (to put it nicely) from Maryland’s site and a Miami insider.
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@RockkChalkk Ya I seen that this morning too. - -what the hell is up with that? The recruiting scene is going whacko right now. - been thought of is Quickley is a lock to UK - I think he still is but we won’t know for sure I guess until he commits. - -I suppose anything would be possible.
Play this out as a weird scenario - -look at this - for some Bizarre reason Quickley ends up let’s say at KU , as we know Kentucky is now trying to step in and ssteal Grimes , so Grimes ends up at Kentucky - - -Quickley ends up at KU - -and Dotson ends up at Florida how crazy would that be? Just makes you wonder why these two guys made predictions for Quickley and KU. - It was Jeff Enman- Maryland Insider and then a guy named Charlie Strauzer - -I dunno.
Saw this morning KU ended up with 7 CB’S for McCormack yesterday - -got to be something there just has to be - and him coming in for late night? - -time to close the deal. - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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@BShark Which one you talking about bud? - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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@BeddieKU23 I would have too , but who knows in this crazy world of whacky recruiting. - -I still think he is a lock for Kentucky but, what goes on in a 18-19 yr old kids head ya know? - -Can change their mind faster then a woman changes her clothes 36 times in one day lol. - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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Leverage to get a bigger payout from Kentucky…
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@JayHawkFanToo I just saw where the Maryland insider changed his pick back to Kentucky lmao. - - ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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looks like the word is out. a whole slew of cb’s for Dave today
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BShark said:
Things are heating up in another croooootment. The parts they are a movin’.
Throw us a bone…need the info…:)
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@BeddieKU23 Sure looks like it. - -I counted 4 so far today as you said, including one from slater , that makes it 11 CB’S that I’ve seen in like the last 24 hours, so at least that’s some possible good news right? - got a question , maybe you can help is McCormack a fluid guy/ smooth? haven’t really seen a lot of video on him -do you know? - - ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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Don’t be surprised if McCormack commits after Late Night. Also, Quickley is going to Kentucky. No idea where the KU buzz came from, but it seems to just be a rumor.
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Ummmm , still waitin for that bone B-shark - - you got some inside poop? - who is the other crootment lol? - -let us have the scoop there - -JUMPIN GEE HOSSA FATS lol – -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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@FarmerJayhawk People were getting buzz from CB’ picks just two off 247 sports , but one of those already changed his pick back to Kentucky. - Quickly pretty well been seen as a Kentucky commit for quite some time , nothings changed. - - ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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I just meant McCormack guys sorry for the confusion. Seems pretty obvious that something leaked/got out with this big of a crystal ball run.
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Btw Dotson to UF looks done.
Michael Devoe a 4* PG from Florida meets with coach White and cancels his UF visit. Wanted Florida big time. Now after the cancellation he says he will announce in a couple days and everyone switches their cb picks to Georgia Tech.
Doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure this one out. Sucks!
