Crootin Thread III, Wherein Some Players Probably Commit to KU
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Heard coach is visiting Zion tues!
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Thomas Allen Retweeted JayhawkSlantVerified account @JayhawkSlant 5h5 hours ago
#kubball assistant coach Norm Roberts is headed to Raleigh, N.C., to meet with the parents of four-star guard Thomas Allen. 3 replies 27 retweets 127 likes
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Read off an article today Shakur is headed to DePaul for a visit this week. Did NOT commit to Iowa State over the weekend. Iowa State fans disappointed. Then some well of Course he is going to takes his visits, and of course making their comments why come to Kansas and waste away on the bench when he could go there and play valuable minutes.
Other schools being mentioned Oklahoma , Illinois , U Conn , Seton Hall and others. Was mentioned Shakur is very aware of the Lawsons commiting to KU, and said I believe the Hutch Coach saying that this a concern for Shakur, because of his 2 yrs remaining. - - - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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Matt Says Tilmon will visit KU unless something happens. With Tilmon that could be anything.
Juiston might be here this weekend for a visit…
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Being reported now that Juiston won’t visit KU. Tilmon visit should def happen. Gotta think Juiston ends up at ISU now.
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yeah the Lawson brothers have eliminated his impact and minutes
Which sucks, I don’t want him at ISU
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@BShark Dam. - -But guess I shouldn’t be surprised with the brothers coming next year. - Still things as far as a Big goes for this year not looking good .Actually kind of a quiet year - -Got to believe Tilmon ends up at Missouri, wish we could of landed a Big. - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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Don’t underestimate KU with Tilmon. We have a long-standing relationship with him. Getting him in for a visit is the key here. Missouri definitely has more to offer (playing time) but if he thinks Martin is going to develop him he’s straight bat crazy and deserves that situation if he chooses it
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KU will get another big. Can’t say who it will be at this point, but Self will add a post player.
@BeddieKU23 said in Crootin Thread III, Wherein Some Players Probably Commit to KU:
yeah the Lawson brothers have eliminated his impact and minutes
Which sucks, I don’t want him at ISU
While he will help ISU, I still don’t know if they are a tournament team next year. Given the choice I think you take the Lawsons every time.
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If a player thinks he cannot compete with the Lawson Brothers then he has no chance of making it to the NBA and might as well go to place where he will get good education. I like Duval’s “I can play anywhere and with anyone” attitude.
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Exactly. If we hadn’t gone after the Lawson brothers I’m sure Shakur would be visiting this weekend and our chances would be greater. But he see’s a crowded future ahead of him and is going to end up where he can produce now with just the 2 years. Seems like Iowa St has this one in the bag now.
We still need to get ourselves a big that can provide depth and push for minutes. Tilmon has to be option #1 now. Fight for minutes behind Doke now and possibly take his spot playing alongside Dedric in 2018-19.
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“Kansas Assistant Coach Norm Roberts will watch 2017 big man Garrison Brooks on Monday. Brooks, who was released from his LOI to mississippi State, is also being recruited by North Carolina and Iowa State among others.”
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What do we know about this guy?
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If juiston goes to isu he’ll make them a tournament team. Wigginton is really good, too. If Preston gave half the effort juiston does, I’d be pleased. Not seeing that during the games or tapes I’ve seen. I was really hoping to get him, hard working great kid! Seems like a Bill Self kind of player.
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He’s 6’10 and a pretty decent athlete. Gets a lot of his points off dunks/put-backs. Has some rim protection ability with his long arms/athleticism. Has some range on his shot, can make an open 17 footer or 3 with time (takes a while to shoot and come down).
Reminds me a lot of Landen Lucas really although not as bulky as Landen was.
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@BeddieKU23 I have to agree, I really think we need to still find a big for THIS class ew have took a lot of misses on players this year. I know we will be fine but man we have missed on a lot of players this year. - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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Can’t shoot, perfect Bill Self 4 man.
Jokes aside, if Preston had Juiston’s motor he’d probably not be at KU…@BeddieKU23 said in Crootin Thread III, Wherein Some Players Probably Commit to KU:
He’s 6’10 and a pretty decent athlete. Gets a lot of his points off dunks/put-backs. Has some rim protection ability with his long arms/athleticism. Has some range on his shot, can make an open 17 footer or 3 with time (takes a while to shoot and come down).
Reminds me a lot of Landen Lucas really although not as bulky as Landen was.
Yeah, at this point he’d be a take. I’d say #1 Tilmon, #2 Juiston, #3 Brooks in terms of priority. That’s just my opinion on it.
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Juiston has been really good so far but you have to consider that the competition up to now has been just one level above HS and we really don’t know how well he will do against Division I players. He is the prototype tweener and I see him having a role similar to that of Jamari, a good Division I backup player but not necessarily a game changer or even a starter.
I really like the kid’s motor and attitude which again, reminds me of Jamari, but his potential at this time is largely unknown. If KU can get him and he can perform as well as Jamari did, I would be happy.
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This is a very valid point. Evaluating JUCOs is pretty much a crapshoot.
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@BShark Well if he cancelled his visit - -pretty well tells us we are no longer a factor, so which in turn also tells us doesn’t mater if his competition is just a level higher then high time to move on and work on THE NEXT one. – ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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Hmmm, just curious I read where the Coach - -no not Self but assistant was going to watching Garrison Brooks tonight. - - 2017 big man who was granted his release LOI from Mississippi State, just curious if we could get him to visit - -wonder if good ol Malik could put a bug in his ear.
I mean who would be better to visit with him also coming from Mississippi state and now here? - -Could talk to him about the KU system ya know? - -Question is would we want to offer? - - Was thought North Carolina was on him heavy but now people talking maybe not so much. So what you think? - -Is he worth the time or not? - - ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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@JayHawkFanToo yeah MVP of the juco national tourney a lil step up from hs. Jimmy butler says hi.
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I would guess KU will offer Brooks if Tilmon picks MIZ.
Oh and MS reporting that KU is pretty much OUT of the Juiston recruitment.
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@BShark selfs choice?
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Too crowded for Juiston. He wants minutes.
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@BShark so Juistons decision?
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I said the “competition” is one step above HS level an I stand by that comment. Sure, there are some very good players in JuCo but most of the better players (with exemptions, of course), if they are any good they are playing in one of the NCAA higher Division and not necessarily JuCo. Just because there is a few quality players in JuCo does not mean the overall competition level is high.
Again, you can pick an exception to any group, but just because Jimmy Butler, arguably the most successful JuCo player ever and one who played only one year at JuCo, made it to Marquette and the NBA does not mean the level of JuCo play is high or that every decent JuCo player will make it at the next level.
Again, I did not say that he is not a good player, simply an unproven one, and a player I would not mind playing for KU.
BTW, Marquel Combs says Hi.
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I’d say probably some of both. Self took the Lawsons after all.
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Probably not as much of a recruiting embargo as it sometimes seems.
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@Dylans – -Doesn’t that kind of surprise you Ol Roy is not on there? - - - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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Some more intel on Garrison Brooks.
Iowa St and SMU are involved more then KU is at this point. Who knows how much Monday’s visit changed things.
Here is why Brooks got out of his LOI.
***His Dad signed his LOI and apparently isn’t his legal guardian. His Dad is on the Mississippi staff but it sounds like the kid didn’t really want to go there. His mother didn’t sign the LOI.
Crazy parents!!
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@dylans I mean I see the top two Nike schools with 44 top 100 kids and the top two Adidas schools with 29. I would be curious to see Nike vs Adidas going 3 deep. And the average ranking of the recruits landed by each school. That tells the real story. If you grab a kid ranked 99th, should that really count. And, many times KU has grabbed a guy, Mitch for example, and he starts outside of the top 100 but then has a jump in the rankings just after KU gets involved. What a coincidence… I’m sure it is the same for U.K and Duke, but Mitch didn’t have his ratings jump when just Arizona was in the mix. When KU took notice he flew up recruiting boards.
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Yeah, Mitch counts, but Mason and Graham don’t? Kinda funny. Of course if you use 247, Mason and Graham were both top 100 at the time of commitment.
Guessing transfers don’t count either, but KU just recently has got Newman, Cunliffe and the Lawsons. Four more top 100 type talents.
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@Kcmatt7 You see two Nike schools. I see two schools that it doesn’t matter if they are affiliated with Converse. Kentucky and Duke will get recruits as long as they have the two top recruiting coaches. Calipari pulled monster classes to Memphis, of course he’s going to be able to recruit even better to UK.Coach K while loathed by some (me) is better respected than he deserves and he has quiet the credentials.
North Carolina schools UCLA, and Kentucky are the easiest schools to recruit to due to geography. Kansas has very little going for it in terms of geography. Proximity to Chicago is all. 1/2 the country away from either coast. Bill is an awesome recruiter.
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We complain about how we somehow don’t get top recruits – an imaginary embargo. The numbers don’t lie, though. We have the 4th most top 100 guys? That’s free trade.
Is it surprising that a few teams might have more than us?
That said, the think what skews UK a bit is the number of one and dones – meaning they rotate in multiple top 100s more often than we do. They might have 3-4 top 100s leave, and then replace them again (just more turnover, really).
Poor choices, poor circumstances (you name the reason) have been the only issue – and it’s all related to big men. Forget blame, Cliff, Diallo, Bragg. Pretty much all wastes of time and effort. Three top 100 guys that contributed very little in the end vs. what was reasonably anticipated.
Recruiting is not our problem. It really isn’t. We are in the game. The big guys we’ve landed – early/late – haven’t worked out. It might be the OAD thing. The focus on the crème (like Cliff and Diallo).
I still believe, and have always believed, the anti-OAD formula is the best approach. Josh Jackson was an unequivocal success on the court.
However, off the court, he created major distractions. This distraction element is not unique to OADs. But in our case, it was an OAD. However, it was not the normal OAD drama I had regularly referred to. JJ was the anti-OAD drama guy.
I can assure everyone, and every KU fan everywhere, that Kansas – with Bill Self as coach – can win a national title without one OAD. Without the pursuit of one year guys.
If you think that Bill Self is a better coach that Roy Williams, as many KU fans do, well, Roy just did it and has done it without OADs.
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@BShark I mean its a mess to count transfers. Do you count Bragg, Greene, Frankamp, and AWIII transferring? Sounds like we are about a wash with those.
And I would say that Graham and Frank don’t count. Not when we missed on how many players before them? I mean we actually got pretty lucky to land them right? Blessings in disguise.
I would say that Svi didn’t count on the rankings and should. He came so late that they didn’t update the ESPN rankings for him.
We definitely land enough players to win it all. But to say that there isn’t a recruiting embargo is not looking at the numbers.
I have done some math of my own and here is some more numbers.
- From 2013-2017 recruiting classes, KU has landed 15 recruits with an average ranking of 25. Duke and UK have landed 18 and 25 recruits respectively with an average ranking of 18.
- There are only 3 Adidas schools who have landed at least 10 top 100 recruits during that time period. Michigan probably would have made a 4th, but they are now Nike. Nike has at least a dozen.
- Top 3 schools Adidas vs Top 3 schools Nike. Nike has landed 59 recruits with an average ranking of 24th. Adidas has landed 40 recruits with an average ranking of 36th.
KU has been the 3rd best recruiters in the country, based on recruit ranking and the number. We have had more than enough talent to get it done. It isn’t an excuse. But, I think it would be significantly easier if we were a Nike sponsored team. If we bumped our average recruit ranking up 3 or 4 spots and added one or two players in just the right years, how much does that help? How much does a Deandre Ayton help next years team? How about a Trevon Duval or Colin Sexton? Do we get a look from Kevin Knox? Bamba? I mean it matters. And, just a reminder, we were still a Nike school when we landed the recruits that lead us to a 2008 National Championship…
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@Kcmatt7 Am I correct in your conclusion that because Duke and UK obtain better ranked recruits, there is thus an embargo? Embargo meaning those schools eliminated from consideration due to their affiliation (if others have a different definition that is more expansive, I’m interested – embargo seems limited to a strict non-consideration).
Does anyone know how many Nike schools there are vs. Adidas schools?
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@HighEliteMajor I definitely think there is an embargo based on brand.
For FBS programs, Nike has 68 schools, Adidas has 31 and Under Armour has 15.
Of P5 conferences, Nike has 44 of 65 schools. Adidas has 12, Under Armour has 8. (Russel Athletic has 1).
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@Kcmatt7 I know this is not exact, but if you look at the graphic above, the two Adidas schools have 29 of the 89 players, or 32%. Between Nike and Adidas schools, the ratio is 68.7 -31.3. Again, not an exact comparison as the actual Adidas school number is lower overall as there are other companies as you mentioned.
Adidas schools regularly in the top ten classes are KU, Louisville, and UCLA – that would be 30% of the total top ten classes, which matches up favorably with the ratio of schools that are Adidas.
I don’t doubt that kids avoid Adidas schools. I guess I’m just quibbling with this over-arching embargo concept.
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I agree. I have always stated that in general, a quality upperclassman will outperform an OAD. Of Course there are exception such as Josh Jackson, the Unibrow and a few others. As you mentioned, UNC was able to win the title without OADs and perhaps will give pause to teams that rely primarily on them such as UK and Duke and to a lesser extent KU.
Of course KU should not pass on players like Wiggins and Jackson but the foundation seems to be better with 3-4 year players like Mason and Graham. Without looking at the specific numbers, I would say that 2-3 year players in the 30-50 ranking would appear to be the sweet spot for KU.
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I have to agree withe @HighEliteMajor that embargo means a complete stoppage or ban of players going to the Adidas school. Perhaps preference, bias, favoritism towards Nike schools would be a better description?
I would like to know what percentage of top 50 or top 100 players go to the school of the various brand affiliations.
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Of the top 5 teams the ones wearing blue have 59 top 100 recruits vs 30 for all other colored jerseys. Just saying correlations can easily be made when looking for them. I’m sure KU has missed out on some Nike recruits because of Nike, but the grass is pretty green in Larryville.
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Yeah the term embargo is a bit tough. Now, sometimes it does play a direct factor, like Tatum cutting KU early. It goes the other way too. Even though it didn’t work out, Adidas helped with Bragg.
Roy had kids that were perceived OADs/in the OAD ranking range that stayed. It’s hard to account for that. Bridges should have been OAD and is staying at MSU. Doesn’t seem to happen for KU. I would say not only can you win w/o OADs, it’s probably an advised strategy. 2012 Kentucky and 2015 Duke are the exceptions so far.
I would agree with that, but it seems the KU coaching staff doesn’t. Looks like they will continue to chase OADs based on early reports with the 2018 class.
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As a side note
Wichita State University today announced a new partnership with Under Armour. The Baltimore-based global leader in performance footwear, apparel and equipment will become the official outfitter of Wichita State University beginning July 1, 2017.
As part of the eight-year agreement, Under Armour will provide on-field and training gear for 15 varsity sports. Additionally, Under Armour will outfit members of the athletic department including coaches and staff.
The agreement between the university and brand will include baseball, women’s basketball and golf in 2017-18, men’s basketball and cross country/track in 2018-19 men’s and women’s tennis in 2019-20 and volleyball and softball in 2020-21.
Wichita State University joins the growing Under Armour roster of NCAA partners that includes UCLA, University of California, Berkeley, University of Wisconsin, Notre Dame, Naval Academy, University of Maryland, Texas Tech University, Northwestern University, University of Cincinnati, Boston College, University of Utah, University of South Carolina and Auburn University.
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@JayHawkFanToo @HighEliteMajor Of the top 50 recruits in classes 2013-2017. (From who I believe their sponsors are. I could have missed 1 or 2 in each class).
- 2013: Nike - 72%, Adidas - 26%, Under Armour - 2%
- 2014: Nike - 76%, Adidas - 18%, Under Armour - 2%, None 4%
- 2015: Nike - 72%, Adidas - 24%, Under Armour - 4%, None 2%
- 2016: Nike - 70%, Adidas - 22%, Under Armour - 6%, None 2%
- 2017: Nike - 60%, Adidas - 18%, Under Armour - 4%, None 18% (Many of these are expected Nike signees).
Embargo is probably a strong term. But, I think KU lands more higher rated recruits if they are a Nike program. All it takes is some behind the scenes action.
Think of how important the AAU circuit is. You can almost predict whether a recruit signs Nike or Adidas based on his AAU team affiliation. They give these players so much. Shoes, Basketballs, jerseys, travel, etc. How these count as permissible benefits I will never understand. These kids do get paid. And, on top of that, their coaches get paid. And the coaches have a huge influence over these players. How else would it explain KU not landing any local talent playing for MO-Kan Elite? All the other local schools have landed someone from them. OU, MU, and SLU all landed players from that roster. We are getting frozen out of any of the top local talent.
I’ve also posted a long time ago about why KU recruits the highest rated players instead of trying to land 3 guys ranked 25-50 every year. It is because there is more competition for guys ranked 25+. The guys ranked 1-25 go to blue bloods like 75% of the time. So you are only competing against about 5 other schools and it all usually works itself out based on what teams needs are. BUT, 25-50 everyone is after them. Because now you are at a range that doesn’t guarantee PT at a blue blood. But it does at a ton of other schools. So competition is much more fierce 25+. As and Adidas school, you also limit the number of guys that would sign with an Adidas school. So you are looking at maybe 10 players outside of the top 25 that would sign with an Adidas school. And then you have to compete with UCLA, UL, Miami, NC State, and Baylor for those scraps. Bill lands more than his fair share, but KU also spends the most money recruiting in the Nation. It is also why I think Bill has really started to use the transfer market lately. There are more quality players transferring than he can get just from recruiting HS players.
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Ok , read some players we are visiting Today, & Tomorrow for 2018. - - So of the guys I am going to list , from everything I’ve read and heard from others - -even others from here , I don’t believe we are leading on ANY of them , and some I don’t think we are even in the park. So how many of these guys do you all think we really feel we have ANY kind of chance at? Just seems to me that possibly we get so zero in on ( EXP ) DeAndre Ayton this past year - -feel we’re in such good shape that several other options get ignored until the ship has sailed on those players.
So read that Coach Self & Coach Townsend are in South Carolina today visiting -Zion Williamson. – Now I would love to have him BUT he is one that I think I’ve heard umm maybe probably not so much
Coach Roberts is going to on Tues, & Wedn , is going to be visiting Jahvon Quinerly - - - Moses Brown , Louis King , & Naz Reed… I think that yes we might be in the running possibly for Moses Brown & MAYBE to a small degree Naz Reid – -maybe BUT other then that I’m not real sure,
Now I’m not sure I can’t positively bring home points -Just possibly a theory , I feel this type of recruiting might be why we are scrambling some this year & you & I both know that can’t deny WE LOST OUT on ALOT of players this year, more then I can remember in recent past - -Again I’m not condemning I love coach but are we limiting ourselves? kicking ourselves right in the butt. I mean seriously I feel unless there is just a dead right glaring difference I think were going to take the first one that commit. - -I mean here is what I’m trying to bring out.
If you are recruiting 2 players Say one is a 4 star & one is a 5 star - -one is rated like # 3 in the Nation - -& the other is like # 10 just for this example is all I think if the 4 star commits 1st then so be it. - I think we are getting into a trend where a lot of these kids are delaying waiting to see who’s leaving - -who is coming back and such so we end up sometimes not offering and WE WAIT - -and then in the end the 5 star commits elsewhere and we have lost out on the 4 star = thusly we end up in scramble mode. So how many of these guys do you think we realistically have a shot at. Let me know - - ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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Adidas has 12 out of 65 P5 schools or slightly over 18%. According to your figures above, Adidas has been getting at least 18% and up to 26% of top 50 recruits or just about its average or slightly over that. Nike has 68% of schools and it has been getting about that. Looks like recruits are going to school pretty much in the same proportion as affiliation.
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Naz Reid has a handler, he’s not leaving the Northeast
Duke has been strong on Zion. South Carolina’s final 4 run probably helps them with him. We’ll see, he’s probably one we have no chance at getting but in order to have a chance you have to chase…
Moses Brown wants Duke but they haven’t been after him like some other programs. Word is they will evaluate him during the first AAU session and decide whether they want him, and I can imagine they will. He improved a bunch this year.
Quinerly probably would have ended up at Washington had Romar stuck around. Figure Arizona will be in play with Romar on staff plus some of the usual east coast schools… He seems an unlikely chase as well
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@JayHawkFanToo I guess I’m missing your point. But I also think we are looking at this two different ways. You see it as everything is proportionate.
I see it as, we are missing out on having a chance with 70% of the top recruits in the nation. You also aren’t factoring in the location of the players. Recruiting to the middle of Kansas is hard enough as it is. Add in the fact that we only have access to 25% of the available players. Of those, who actually fits our scheme? How about our position need any given year. That 25% starts to fall pretty quick.
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But that is not exactly correct either. Just because we are not getting a large percentage of top50 players does not mean we don’t have chance with them but that either we are limited in the number of scholarships or other programs present better opportunities, regardless of brand affiliation. Adidas schools are about 18% of the P5 schools and are getting about 20% of the top 50 players…seems about right to me.
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@BeddieKU23 Ya so in the final analayis like I thought. Our chances are pretty slim to none on ANY of these guys. I understand what your saying aboutyou have to do things to have any kind of a chance. -My thing is DO YOU feel like when such as these cases - -DO YOU feel like we spend TO MUCH time AND EFFORT on these kids instead of the point I was trying to make? -Do you not feel like it is possible that we kind of get blinders on ONE and the main time other possible potent recruits slip away just curious. I by far am not trying to be negative on Coach wouldn’t want anyone else. Just curious seems like there are a lot of guys that have gotten away and I’m wondering if it is because of the way we a zeroing in a certain CERTAIN ONE. - -I dunno - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
