KU got beat by a better team
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Graham played that way for a reason; Oregon was a bad matchup for our guards (which means they are probably a bad matchup for everyone else’s guards). I also think Graham took his development back with conservative play this year. He was the Jacque Vaughn of this year; he became a distributor. He also suffered against length (Jeez how many times do I have to say/think/type this, it stinks.
We really needed a big time step up this game, but Bell was just that much better. He’s everything we wished Jamari Traylor could be. We NEEDED Azubuike. Many of us on this board said S16 or E8 was our likely ceiling after his injury.
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@betterfireE and many people changed their minds after we beat Michigan St by 20 (which NOBODY does) and a very good Purdue team by 32. I refuse to buy into the fact that their guards were that much better than our. All year - from day one - even the east coast media owned up to the fact that KANSAS had the best backcourt in the country. But half of it didn’t show up Saturday.
Keep in mind this is not a personal attack on him - I love him, hope he stays next year - but for whatever reason he did not show up Saturday night and it cost us a trip to Phoenix.
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@nuleafjhawk but he wasn’t the only one
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@nuleafjhawk man that was hard to read. painful, but true. Why do we seem to have the most inexplicable losses in the tournament?
2010 shoot 10% from three and run into Faroukmanesh
2011 Markief has an uncharacteristic 8 turnovers by himself and we lose to VCU
2013 we blow a 12 point lead in 2 minutes to michigan
2017 a 40% and 50% three point shooting duo go 2 of 14.
Graham and Mason shot so poorly from 3 on Saturday that their performance dropped their yearly 3pt% a percentage point just in one game.
you cant make this stuff up.
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@nuleafjhawk said:
@betterfireE and many people changed their minds after we beat Michigan St by 20 (which NOBODY does) and a very good Purdue team by 32. I refuse to buy into the fact that their guards were that much better than our. All year - from day one - even the east coast media owned up to the fact that KANSAS had the best backcourt in the country. But half of it didn’t show up Saturday.
Keep in mind this is not a personal attack on him - I love him, hope he stays next year - but for whatever reason he did not show up Saturday night and it cost us a trip to Phoenix.
I agree - and there seems to be some post-hoc rationalization re talent level and athleticism - that Oregon was superior on both fronts. Make no mistake about it - Oregon is a really good team and was a FF favorite at the beginning of the year - got dropped at least a seed because Boucher got hurt at the end of the year (the guy who was supposedly more of a rim protector than Bell).
But let’s be real - Oregon beat exactly no one of note during the non-conference schedule - they got spanked by Baylor and lost to Georgetown (?!). In conference they beat the lower tier teams and split with UCLA and Arizona.
In their first 3 tournament games, they beat Iona by 16 and squeaked by URI and Michigan - by 3 and 1 points, respectively. Their first 3 opponents all scored more points that we did - apparently they did not have quite the same issues with Oregon’s length and athleticism. Oregon’s DER was in the 20s, although dropped to 19 after the win against us, so they were solid, but not one of elite defensive teams - even with Boucher.
The thing that is sticking in my craw is that we clearly got taken out of our offense - the guys admitted that they struggled with the match-up zone. As a result, we scored the fewest points we have all season. Last year at the same time, Villanova took us out of our offense and we scored 59 points.
I’m not sure why in seemingly too many instances in the tournament over the years (I’m thinking VCU, Davidson (even though we won) and UCLA, among others) that our opponents seem to be successful in taking us out of our offense? Shouldn’t we be the team doing that to them?
Oregon is a really good team and shot the ball well and played well in a hostile environment, so hats off to them. But, I don’t accept that they were more talented across the line-up (although it may turn out that they have more successful NBA players; remains to be seen) and there is a reason we were favored by 6.5 points going in. Posts above show recap who’ve we lost to as a higher seed in the tournament (esp. in the Elite Eight) and I would argue that UCLA was probably the only team in all of those who actually had more talent on the floor.
What is most frustrating is a seeming pattern of very sub par performances on the offensive end during the tournament. Maybe it is just luck or one of those things…
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@Blown said:
2013 we blow a 12 point lead in 2 minutes to michigan
Did we really have a 12 point lead with 2 minutes left?
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@chriz I can’t be certain. It sure felt like it.
I do know with certainty that we had a 5 point lead with 21 seconds left.
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@chriz said:
@Blown said:
2013 we blow a 12 point lead in 2 minutes to michigan
Did we really have a 12 point lead with 2 minutes left?
Up by 10 with just less than 3 minutes to go and up 8 with just less than 2 minutes to play…
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That was the game that Johnson got a t’d up for hitting McGary in crotch.
Was reviewing some old articles and noted another common theme…one of our starting guards fouled up quickly in the first half…
Johnson,**** who picked up three fouls in just three minutes of playing time in the first half****, gave Kansas its biggest lead at 68-54 with a 3-pointer from the corner with just under 7 minutes left.
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@Crimsonorblue22 He definitely wasn’t the only one!! The difference is, he had very, very good stats all year long and he is an upperclassman that others looked to for leadership. You know that chant that WE use all the time? " You let your whole team down… " kinda applies here.
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@nuleafjhawk was thinking of another upper classmen, ll
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Guys - when I write “we got beat by a better team” I do not mean in general every time, but in that particular game. The plays Oregon made on O and D were worthy of a W. They were the better team last Sat by far, and Bell was the best player on the floor by far.
If we shot poorly, it is also because of their length and athleticism. Their players shot over our players time and time again, posted our guys up and turn and shoot the 12-18 range fade away jumper, made multiple NBA threes and disrupted our O all night long (GREAT transition D by Oregon while Bell still hit the O boards, impressive).
I cannot believe some KU fans are still thinking “we should have won.” We got beat by 14 on our home court! If we played them ten times on a neutral court, they would win 5-6-7 times. Sorry guys, but our team is not the most talented physically in most end of year tournament matchups, including this year against Oregon. (Purdue was slow, Oregon is fast).
The difference by far was Bell (PAC 10 POY). When you block that many shots and disrupt that many other shots, rarely does the other team have a good shooting night. Cause-Effect.
We got beat by a better team and their size on the perimeter was huge (how many times did they post up and back us down and shot over the top?). And their athleticism on the block was much higher than ours.
One last thing, in the tournament, the completion is MUCH better. Of course we play less well because the other teams are that much better.
Sometimes we get lucky and get the breaks (08 and 12) and sometimes we get unlucky and just cannot get a break or a shot to fall. Over a six game single elimination tournament, no room for error. BUT, we also missed shots because they were bigger and longer and stronger and better players than most of the teams we had faced this year, not dominant, but a little better class of athlete and we could not run our normal O. We were just a little out of our normal rhythm.
We got beat by a better team and by better, bigger players (one-on-one). This loss hurts a lot because of the way this team won so many close games and our chemistry on the court and our coaching. We were at home. We were favored to win. We were seated #1.
Still, we did not chock or underperform, individually or as a team. Some of our guys did not play as well as they have in previous games because of the level of competition. Michigan and Oregon were the two best teams in the Midwest Region.
Could we have won, of course! Should we have won, no.
Rock Chalk!
PS I really like the thoughts on how to attack that match up zone. This is the only area where we might question our coaching staff. They played it out very high and we had to start our O much further from the basket than normal. Could we have made more clever game time and half time adjustments?
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@jayhawk-007 I agree with all of these points. Oregon was too good defending us to be a fluke.
If there is one point I could disagree with it’s preparation. We were clearly not prepared for Bell or really any of their players.
But how can you practice for length or strength?
I watched the Carolina and Kentucky game, and honestly both KU and Oregon are better. We shall see, but this maybe yet another year where we lose to a title contender.
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I just feel bad for Landen. He mentioned that one of the reasons he picked KU over Oregon was that he felt that he had a better chance to win a title at KU. Yet KU never made it to the Final 4 in the 5 years he was there. Not saying that means KU didn’t have a better chance than Oregon, but Oregon’s gotten closer to the promised land.
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Every season some one finally finds the right note for putting the season to bed.
Way to go, oo7.
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It was a 6 point game late after shooting 1-10 from 3 In the second half. Oregon was better that night, but KU absolutely would beat them the next 40 minutes they play. Devonte was scared to shoot his shot was so bad. (My wife couldn’t get over the fear she saw in Devonte’ - wanted him off the court) They missed wide open shots all game. The lane was plugged by Bell, but that doesn’t explain all the missed wide open shots.
The downfall of Bill’s more hands free approach to letting the guards just play is that they take up to 30 minutes to figure out a team. Also it allows very little opportunity for Bill to make in game changes. Basically when you tell them to go get it all you can do it up the intensity. You can’t all the sudden insert a detailed game plan in the second half. This team didn’t respond well to orchestrated game plans and did better on the fly. They just weren’t quick enough figuring out the ducks.
The 6 point difference with a few minutes to go despite playing like absolute dog crap tells me Oregon isn’t dominate. This isn’t like Villanova, KU lost the game as much as Oregon won it. Villanova took the game from KU last year. Oregon caught KU on a bad shooting night with no other answer.
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@dylans Totally agree but championship rosters have inside guys to go to for easy buckets when the outside shots are not falling. I knew that eventually our lack of inside offense would hurt us.
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@chriz Yikes … when you say it like that, it’s more painful.
@BigBad Truth is, Lucas just wasn’t good enough against some players. That’s true of every player. It’s just that Lucas’ talent level was lower than some other guys, so the likelihood of being overmatched increased. He was overmatched Saturday. The guy who really let us down is Bragg. He should have been a guy, supposedly 6’10" with more bulk, that should have been able to give us some offense there.
Interestingly, the same thing happened against Villanova – inability to get some reliable hoops inside. But it was Nova’s scheme (and our lack of effective adjustment to it) that stymied Ellis. Ellis only took 5 shots. That was on the coaches.
Lucas’ failures, I think, were simply him being out-talented.
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@dylans Yes Nova took the game from us last year, but I feel like this EE loss compared closely to that loss. With Frank and Wayne going 1-12 from three and Perry being bottled up inside, Devonte was our only player keeping us close against Nova. This year it was Frank trying to carry us while everyone else was shooting like crap and Landon being bottled up inside. To me they are pretty similar games. Just a few more shots falling and a couple more rebounds, we probably win both of those games. Hopefully the bball Gods will be more merciful to us starting this next season, and especially in regards to injury. I am keeping the faith. ROCK CHALK!!!
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So you think if Kansas played Oregon in a best of 7… Oregon would win?
I’m not quite there yet.
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I say it would be a 7 game series. But I believe KU loses 8/10 times against Oregon in the Elite 8. There is really no way to prepare against length, strength and speed. We would probably adjust to them, since we had some smart players. In any case, barring a job by the referees, I think Oregon makes it to the championship game.
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@jayhawk-007 Nice post. Man, that was a really tough loss to swallow. I felt bad for the players. They must have felt even worse than we did. But you are right. We will be back next year and just as good.
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Wann feel bad, then better? Realize that 3 of the 4 coaches in the final four are former coaches from Kansas. Keeps the K-State fans that want to rib ya at a good distance. They ran off 2 Final Four coaches for Bruce at least KU still has Bill.
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I disagree about them being a better team. The luck factor was def in their favor, a guy banked in a 35 foot shot at halftime. Being out rebounded by 4 to a bigger team isnt terrible but they hit 2 3s off of offensive rebounds in big moments. Most of the rebounds we gave up weren’t because they were bigger, we just missed more shots than them, giving them more chances. A couple of those offensive rebounds we had guys standing and watching, had nothing on them being more athletic, they would’ve out rebounded us by much more off of that alone if that was the case. LL wasnt athletic enough to play with them I’d say, but Mason, JJ, Vick and DG are as athletic as any players in D1 IMO. Coming out with little energy and emotion hurt a ton and missing shots aswell. We played solid D in the second half. They only scored 30 with us putting them at the line 3 times late. Why we didnt keep driving the ball trying to get fouls and dishing to LL for a dunk I’ll never know, it worked a few times only to never be tried again. I’ve said all year we haved lived by out scoring our opponents and lived too much off of our 3 pointers and guards. I belive LL only averaged 8 points a game (still love LL) but he needed another big like Trob and Withey or Black and Emiid to help him out. We needed low post scoring IMO then we would’ve been in better shape even with the 4 guard line up.
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72-66 with 1:58 to play…
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I thought we had the best backcourt in America this year. Sure… we could have used more height. But if you look back at past NC teams… having a huge backcourt isn’t required.
I just thought we played tired and without ambition. We quickly became lost in this game. I didn’t recognize this team, perhaps similar to what we experienced in Morgantown.
Many of our missed treys were wide open set shots.
I thought this was our worst game played all year. Frank was proof of that. Oregon didn’t stop him from getting his points. He got blocked once or twice, but he was doing everything 100% on his own. He had absolutely NO help from his teammates.
This is the hardest loss I’ve ever had as a Jayhawk.
I have total belief in Frank Mason. But after this game… I lost confidence in the rest of our team. I thought they left him out there alone. I felt ZERO team concept. ZERO. And I can’t think of many if any past games like this, even when Sherron took games under his complete control.
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“What is most frustrating is a seeming pattern of very sub par performances on the offensive end during the tournament.”–@DCHawker
I have wondered about this, too.
But one tournament a few years ago I anecdotally observed some other teams in the 16 and EE rounds and I noticed that the loser in most of those games lost either because of a sub par offensive performance, or because of apparent whistle asymmetry favoring their opponent.
I hypothesized without writing about it that in the vast majority of Carney games, those are the two ways one loses, once the competition gets stiff, and when one is not among a select few EST teams.
This is only a hypothesis, not an assertion of verified empirical fact.
But ever since I have focused on calls for more symmetric refereeing to recover the tournament from the apparent jaws of the Carney.
Bad shooting nights seem a given of the stochastic aspects of the game.
Bad refereeing seems something that could be remedied.
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We weren’t beat by a better team. We beat ourselves.
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@KUSTEVE Careful: insisting you are better than the team you lose to is steering dangerously close to Squeaky “played harder” territory!
All that matters is they were better when it counted. Fluke shots? Still have to launch them without getting blocked. Bounce of the rebounds? Still have to be somewhere near where the ball comes down.
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@mayjay What is Squeeky? I’m not following.
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@KUSTEVE K State coach with the play harder chart!
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If KU and Oregon play best of seven, who do you think would win that series?
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@JayHawkFanToo It doesn’t matter to me. And if your answer is KU, does that actually make you feel better–or worse?
The point is, I get no sense of satisfaction or solace by thinking KU was somehow better. Because we weren’t when it counted. Oregon played better and won. And it is not like it was a close game, so it wasn’t just a missed FT, or a last second hail Mary, or a single bad call.
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I simply asked the question since the answer probably would indicate which is the better team. Other than Football where it is logistically impractical to have teams face each other more than once, just about every other major sport, other than college basketball, has teams facing each other more than once. I have always been on favor of having a 2 out of 3 format for games starting with the elite 8; it would take some of the luck, or lack thereof, of the current format. I don’t believe this will happen anytime soon.
FWIW, I believe that KU would take the series 4-1 or 4-2 and it does not make me feel better or worse. As much as I like basketball, I take it for what it is, a sport/entertainment and one more or one less win does not change any thing important in my world/life. Sure, I would have preferred KU won but losing is not the end of the world and I already derived a full season of enjoyment from the team. Remember, every team in the tournament except one, end its season with a loss.
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@JayHawkFanToo said:
it would take some of the luck, or lack thereof, of the current format
I think it would take the fun out of it, too.
I understand what you are saying about being a better measure, but I am thoroughly against that idea because I think it would reduce the tourney to blue bloods only. I don’t deny that blues dominate now, but I don’t like giving any team a do over. And I don’t want to see a Yankees dynasty in cbb. UCLA is in the past, thank goodness!
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@mayjay So, I morph into Liberace if I think we were a better team. I’m not buying that story, your honor.
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@KUSTEVE said:
I’m not buying that story, your honor.
The staff used to use “Your Horror” when talking to us!
Like them, I was just kidding you. I only used Squeaky because he is the only coach I have ever heard of who insisted after two losses to the same team that his team tried harder.
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Seems to me Altman, et. al. began scheming against KU on Selection Sunday. Rolled the dice to include risking a loss to prepare for a KU takedown. To me, the arrogance of the after game interviews was the tell. No way do I believe the players looked at scouting reports for the first time 48 hours before the EE game. I think NC will handle Oregon easily and will have KU to thank. A week of preparation would have made a world of difference but that is obviously not the format. However, it does make me long for the days when we prided ourselves in beating teams playing whatever style the opponent wanted to play.
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Interesting idea. I don’t think Altman could gain a huge advantage by prepping for Kansas so far ahead. No way he didn’t prep for his other games. And it just doesn’t work to have your guys prepping for more than one game at a time.
I think it would help all of us (including myself) to watch the game again. I bet we all remember a different game and would gain insight now if we could stomach watching it again. I still can’t without blasting a shotgun through the tv.
The way I remember this game… is we rarely ran any kind of structured offense. I recall a few times we ran the chop weave. We were sped up and in a constant state of chaos. It reminded me of our game at WV, except the pressure wasn’t there to match WV.
I feel certain we would have lost this game to all other Elite 8 teams. We just didn’t bring game that evening, period.
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@CRH107 said:
To me, the arrogance of the after game interviews was the tell.
I have read a number of complaints here about the interviews with Duck players and Altman. I didn’t watch them, and I was wondering what they said.
So, I just spent the last 28 minutes watching both their entire 15 min 45 sec news conference and about 5 on-court interviews. I have to say, I didn’t see anything disrespectful toward KU or any KU players. I saw kids and a coach happy to have executed their game plan. I saw exultant winners who beat, in their words, the number 1 team on their home floor. They were thrilled they played well (and Altman mentioned several times that they definitely got a number of lucky bounces).
So, please help me: what was arrogant? Did I miss an interview somewhere?
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A few comments that hit me wrong:
“They sleep on us, man. Shoutout to Long Beach, they sleep on all of us out there … Ain’t nothing sweet about us, man.” ~Bell
“We’re not done. We wanna put a banner up. We want a banner in Oregon. They sleep. They sleep on West Coast, man. Wake ’em up! Wake up!” ~Dorsey
“We wanted to send their fans home.” ~Dorsey
I don’t disagree that these are exuberant remarks but in my view in stark contrast to how KU players typically respond in post-game situations (regardless of how lopsided the win). The self-centeredness of the comments seem arrogant to me but agree that they are not disrespectful.
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@mayjay said:
So, please help me: what was arrogant? Did I miss an interview somewhere?
Jordan Bell in postgame talked about how well he played. It was unusual, and I’m thinking, Who says that?! But yeah, they were just excited kids. Played well against a team that played poorly, due in part to Oregon’s defense and in part to Self’s apparent Elite 8 issues. Beat us in our backyard.
But no real harm. Gotta complain about something, especially for those who for some reason can’t justify making a single criticism towards Self.
