Reality check from the land of Trust in Bill Self
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Yeah I don’t think anyone here has called for Self to be fired or even on the hot seat but it’s quite possible I missed a post as I haven’t been reading everything.
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@mayjay said:
Just a thought about this, because it has been mentioned a lot. Does this reflect a flaw in short-turnaround coaching by Self but his 12-5 record in the second round with that same turnaround does not mean the opposite?
I’d expect better results against teams that aren’t considered to be a top 30 team.
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@chriz wasn’t comparing the two teams but more of the fan bases.
Do you think their fans had lots to say as to why he wasn’t getting past the Sweet 16?
We’re the blaming it on lack of talent? Need to recruit better?
Kinda seeing that here from a few folks.
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A couple of months ago, I posted the message below about Bill Self’s change in demeanor come tournament time. It seems appropriate to bring this up again now that we are repeating our Groundhog Day for KU fans.
In light of the comments below, if the game against Oregon was a conference game, say against Oklahoma or KSU, Bill Self would’ve called an early time out and tore into the team for the sluggish start. Instead, he coddled them and didn’t coach them the same as he does during conference.
Previous Post:
Have any of you noticed that Coach Self seems to have different ways of motivating the team when it comes to tournament games relative to conference games? Not sure if it’s my imagination or not, but when it comes to tournament time, Self spends a lot of time talking (publicly anyway) about how the team needs to “play loose and with a free mind”.
We rarely, if ever, hear him say something like that during the regular season. Instead, he says things like he did this week where he called out Vick and Bragg in the locker room before the game. During conference he prefers to put pressure on the players in a masterful way so that they are peaking for the difficult road games and turning down the intensity before easy home games. Sorry I don’t have more specific examples to cite here at the moment, but over the years I have noticed a definite shift in his coach-speak when the tournament starts up.
I don’t know if I would call it coddling and I also obviously don’t know if his “play loose” comments are just for the media/public while he is coaching them in the locker room and practice like they are going into Manhattan with the B12 championship on the line. Whichever, he doesn’t seem to be able to get the team anywhere close to the killer instinct that the team possesses both at home and on the road during the regular season.
If somehow Coach Self could get the team to believe that the jerseys on the opposite team read K-State, Baylor, or West Virginia, you can bet many of those disappointing losses in the first or second weekend of the NCAA tournament would have been W’s.
I’ve also noticed that his sideline demeanor changes and is more mild mannered during tournament games. He smiles more at the players and goes easier on them in the huddles. Again, maybe trying to get them to not play “tight” but actually sending the message that it’s OK to lose. During conference games, he almost never smiles and is always chewing someones butt, even if they are winning by 10 points.
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For @kjayhawks Posting a reply to you over here instead of the Calipari thread.
Your question gave me pause. Why the trouble with one round (EE) more than others?
Okay, no doubt about that: in Bill’s 19 tourneys, 2 losses in 64, 5 in 32, 3 in Sw16, 7 in EE, 1 in Championship game, and one tourney with a Championship (no losses).
Please bear with me. Hypothetical: would we be upset so much if by chance Bill’s teams had been seeded differently, say 5-8 in most years, so losing in the Sw16 or EE would have been seen as exceeding expectations? Now, I know that we were seeded much higher, but what if? What if we were not viewed by media as an elite team every single year?
I think people would be frustrated about the inability to break through into the elite level, but I also think we would be delighted that he took teams as far as he has with this exact same record.
So, is the problem Bill’s coaching? Or is it people’s expectations – which, as I have pointed out many times before, is caused solely by his excellent coaching throughout the regular season?
I happen to think we won a statistically unusually high number of really close games this year, distorting our record, and if a few breaks had gone the other way we would have easily fallen to a 2, 3, or even 4 seed this year. Living on the edge, it was called by many of us, by falling behind and having to come back behind our POY.
Look at what Bill has done in regular seasons, winning those 13 straight (thrice with all new starters), fighting off Nat’l POYs in conference opponents, overcoming NCAA crap, injuries, criminal mischief, family interference, adverse media scrutiny, drugs suspensions… I call that overachieving.
And overachieving during the year means that you get better seeds, but it is less likely you can perform to them.
More complicated to see it this way than to just fixate on our disappointments, but it is, I think, a much better explanation than some unlikely explanation that HCBS cracks up somehow in the EE but didn’t in the F4 where there is so much more pressure.
Bottom line, it is really the NCAA committee’s fault for overseeding us, creating a bunch of fans and media members who cannot see past seed numbers to understand how fragile a record for a #1 seed can be.
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@FarNrthJHwk said:
@chriz wasn’t comparing the two teams but more of the fan bases.
Do you think their fans had lots to say as to why he wasn’t getting past the Sweet 16?
We’re the blaming it on lack of talent? Need to recruit better?
Kinda seeing that here from a few folks.
I hear ya. I’m not one of the ones calling for Bill’s head (can’t say I’ve actually seen anyone on here calling for his head, doesn’t mean they don’t exist though.)
If I’m a Gonzaga fan, I cut the coach some slack because I’m not in a power conference and I can’t get the same talent as the blue bloods. KU on the other hand, with all of the talent we’ve had, surely has to have been one of the top for teams in the country more often than we’ve been to the Final Four.
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@chriz would agree with that
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@mayjay I’m just curious as to how many schools/fans would wet themselves to have the opportunity to have 7 chances at the elite 8? win or lose? - - - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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@dylans Great point. - - Couldn’t be said better, anytime after a loss people gonna be fired up - -looking for reasons as to why we lost, a lot of times other then the real reason - -we just got beat, a lot of factors come into play, pretty much just a bad night shooting. - -Ya Oregon came out fired up, I mean a lot of things could have inspired them, just like I heard people giving them NO CHANCE, that’s bound to inspire, wanting to prove that they too belonged, that they too had a good team which they do. - -It was just one of those nights. - - -ROCKCHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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If Self won all those EE’s would he lose all the next games of the f4?
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@chriz said:
can’t say I’ve actually seen anyone on here calling for his head, doesn’t mean they don’t exist though.
There are a bunch of quotes on an Oregon site.
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How bad does Bill Self feel today? He has to feel worse than anyone in this forum. In his life, he doesn’t have time to sit around and worry himself to death. He has to find out which players are staying, which are leaving and which players does he need to come here that gives him the best chance to compete for a National Championship. He will also make time to have a Team Banquet and personally thank each member for their role in another great season. It may not be the ultimate season, but reaching the Elite 8 is a great accomplishment.
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http://es.pn/2n94ST1 Cal getting it from National media for not winning it all enough.
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All valid thought on this thread.
We are going to continue to live with this reality of KU-should-at-least-be-a-FF-team-every-year expectations because of the excellence of our coach and the program. It doesn’t look like anytime soon KU will be in a prolonged downswing in terms of basketball prowess.
Now, there can be an argument made (as has been make hundreds of times on this site) that perhaps recruiting more quality players will help us come tournament time. NC this year was not thought to be a front runner early in the season, but they seem to be gelling at the right time, and of course they have lots of talent in all positions. Nike school
In terms of pure coaching, honestly, I really don’t see other top tier coaches being any better than Self, and Self went with the flow this year and adapted. Almost all his players seem to love respect and revere him, because he is tough as hell but fair.
Can he figure out how to be a better motivator come tourney time? Yes in my opinion… I’m guessing he is pondering that right now. But honestly, the guys we had this year really didn’t need motivating, they knew how take care of business in all kinds of hostile environments. I am somewhat shocked that the Oregon game wasn’t closer at the end, because that was our stock in trade this year.
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Stephen A is a dodo. Does Calipari have 3 FF in 9 years at Kentucky? Two national title trips and a championship? And he does it with a brand new roster every year. Had he found a way to be UNC yesterday, he would be on his way to another title, imo.
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@mayjay There’s no evidence because we the public don’t get to follow Self around on a daily basis from October when practice starts to the final game of the year. If we were able to, I’m sure something would stand out. So no, it’s not a straw argument because there’s enough data points to say that tgere is something going on that consistently makes a Bill Self coached team play their worst offensive game of the year in the E8. What we don’t know is the variable that changes.
Playing better teams, sure, a below average shooting game sounds reasonable enough for that situation. But it still doesn’t explain why that round is consistently KU’s worst game of the year.
A hypothesis I would counter with is that Self in the past has admitted to reviewing game tape from KU’s final game of the year. Bill Self has been in 18 NCAA tournaments, he’s made the E8 half the time (9), but has only won in this round twice. Why would a coach not review game tape when it’s consistently the same cause for losing? This is where I would start from in figuring out why Bill Self struggles so much in the E8.
The other place I would go is the November tournaments Self has participated in. KU hasn’t won many when there’s been a fellow top rated team in them. That’s another possible correlation as well.
So while there’s nothing we can do to get all the information needed to determine the cause since we can’t follow Self around during practice and other basketball related activities, we have to look at what’s available through quotes and observable pieces of information available.
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@FarNrthJHwk said:
@Texas-Hawk-10 Could be the players want to be the ones who get coach over that hump and out the pressure on themselves?
They get tight. They get “puckered” (which seems to be the word of choice around here). They try to hard to get coach the next Final 4.
Look at how they have played this past season. Once Number 13 was wrapped up it seemed the guys were a little more relaxed. You hear them and coach talk about how non of them want to be the team that snaps the streak of conference titles and they put that pressure on themselves.
Maybe the same can be said about the players wanting it so bad for coach in the Elite 8 that they put the pressure on themselves.
And once shots stop falling you tense up a little more to try to get the next one in and so on.
That still comes back to Bill Self though because part of his job is to make sure his players are ready to play and to make adjustments when something isn’t working. So if the team is putting pressure on itself, that’s still on Self to try and find a way to loosen them up.
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CJ MooreVerified account @CJMooreBR 1h1 hour ago
Bill Self has a better tourney win% than Knight, Rupp, John Thompson, Boeheim, Tark & Iba. If he makes E8 next year, he’ll pass Dean Smith.
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It’s funny how FF is an arbitrary accomplishment that becomes a measure of success. When I was a kid growing up in Illinois going downstate was the goal in basketball. To accomplish that you had to make the Elite 8. If you did that, you had accomplished a lot and everything was judged on that, almost like winning it all was just gravy.
Making the Elite 8 in the NCAA tournament is a nice accomplishment and when we lose in the Elite 8, we are losing to a team that has made the Final 4. Losing in the Elite 8 sucks, but it doesn’t suck in a Bucknell or Bradley kind of way, or even in a Northern Iowa kind of way. It means we won three tourney games, pretty exciting, but of course we want to win 6 games each March, not 3.
It’s interesting that Jay Wright has had a much worse March record than Bill Self, but right now he is on the list of really good coaches because he won the darn thing last year. Then he comes back this year and goes right back to form with an upset loss, a very regular occurrence in Philly for his teams.
And totally unrelated, but if UNC doesn’t pull that one out yesterday then we’d have to endure the awful reality of TWO SEC teams in the FF.
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@FarNrthJHwk it is never on the players apparently when KU loses. It is always Self got out coached or failed to adjust. It can never be that the opponent played a better game that day.
Unfortunately this happens to every team that happens to be the favorite in said game.
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The team that lost on Saturday was comprised of players with the following recruiting evaluations:
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5 stars Jackson, Bragg(Didn’t see the floor)
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4 stars Mason, Graham, Svi, Vick
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3 stars Lucas, Coleby
Our front court was basically mid major level. Coaching isn’t the problem, missing on key recruits is. Imagine the team this year with Jarrett Allen. I always go back to Morningstar and Reed being starters that make an Elite 8. That isnt a disappointment that is called MAXIMIZING talent. But at Kansas those guys should have been role players.
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@BigBad What was the ranking of the Oregon players?
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@BigBad is right. KU’s front court this year was midmajor level. It’s just a fact. Nothing against Landen he played his butt off.
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@BShark Landon is what he is. It was Bragg’s lack of development that really hurt.
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Bragg was pretty overrated as it turns out. I admit I was very wrong about him I thought he would be a good player. But at this point, he looks like he should transfer to a team in the MVC. Probably best for Bragg and KU. I wish him the best if he transfers.
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@BShark He is a PERFECT fit at the 4 for the Hi Low. His back to the basket moves are lagging and we went 4 out this year so that hurt. Then the off court stuff…
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Found this kind of interesting. - - It was said, Yes Bill Self is 2-5 in the elite 8 - -that means we as in KU has made the elite 8 50% of the time since Coach Self has been here, Also said that they bet chances are all but a few of the 351 other Coaches would rally like to be in this position. - -Hmmmmm., this from a Coach that is getting questioned for making adjustments.
Also read: Self has lost twice in the 1st round: - -Bucknell - - - & Bradley.- - Three times in the 2nd round: - - Northern Iowa - - -Stanford - - -& Wichita State. - - -Twice in the Sweet Sixteen- - Michigan State & Michigan. Five times in the elite 8: - - Georgia Tech - - UCLA - - VCU - - Villanova - - & Oregon - -Once in the Title - -Kentucky. Well hmmm, let’s see is it because Self didn’t make adjustments OR was it that on this particular night that the other team might of just been better? - - A lot of things go into a win. - -BUT let’s look at this another way.
Bill Self is 12-2 in the 1st round - - - -Bill Self is 9-3 in the 2nd round - - -Bill self is 7-2 in the sweet sixteen - - -bill self is yes 2-5 in the elite 8 - - But Bill Self is 2-0 in the Semi’s - - -&- - -1-1 in the Title game.- - - -He is 33-13 in the NCAA tourney games - - let me say that again - - Bill Self is 33-13 in the NCAA tourney games - - that is a 71 .7 winning %- - - now I’m kind of curious - -I wonder for a guy that can’t or won’t make ajustments I wonder about ALL these other games - Coach didn’t make adjustments at any point in any other all these other games? - -Kind of odd, so ONLY in the elite 8 games he won’t make adjustments? - -I find that kind of odd. - -In all these other games even the ones he has won in the NCAA that he made no adjustments in any of them things tha t make you go hummmm.
Only two other coaches have been to more elite 8’s then Coach- – Calipari with 9 - -three of those with Memphis - - -Williams with 8. - - One other thought - -you do realize that since 1979 ONLY 25% of the # 1 seeds have made it to the final 4 – Let me say that again. Since 1979 - -only 25 % of the # 1 seeds have made it to the final 4 - - -25 % - - hmmmm. - -Wonder why they didn’t make it any more then that? -was it because their coach couldn’t/wouldn’t make adjustments? - -OR maybe just maybe - -the shots just wasn’t falling -maybe it was just that the other team was just a little better on that particular night? - -Someone please tell me if we were to play a best out of 7 against Oregon who you think would take that series? - you know - -I know - -would it be because we are truly the better team? Anything can happen in a one game scenario - - such as shoots just not falling, not being in proper defensive position, not getting that key rebound - -So in this 7 game series that we know we would win - -Coach Self not making any adjustments OR are we hitting those same shots, better defensive position, getting key rebounds? - - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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@jayballer54 How dare you look at the big picture!
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@BigBad LOL, Ya I know lol, - - - I’m sorry- - - -my bad - -
- - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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@jayballer54 If you are a member of the kusports posters, or @Texas-Hawk-10 I think I see your name pop up over there sometimes…
Maybe we should have some investigative journalism and interview players from all elite eight teams that lost, and maybe even the ones that didn’t lose and see if there is a common theme that can be discovered.
It doesn’t look like Jesse Newell is on here any more. Maybe somebody here knows Keegan, or Tait. Maybe a good piece to work on in the offseason.
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2004: No. 3 Georgia Tech 79, No. 4 Kansas 71 - Roy’s boys coached by Self. Giddens was horrible on D, miles couldn’t shoot. Jarret jack went off. Played to our seed
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2007: No. 2 UCLA 68, No. 1 Kansas 55 - Kansas full of young talent and ran into a talented UCLA squad in San Jose
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2008: No. 1 Kansas 59, No. 10 Davidson 57 - Self’s most complete squad squeaked out win against Stephen Curry
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2011: No. 11 VCU 71, No. 1 Kansas 61 - Sorry but I myself believe Kansas had a flawed roster. Selby not developing and relying on Morningstar and Reed from the outside is meh…team couldnt shoot that day.
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2012: No. 2 Kansas 80, No. 1 North Carolina 67 - Maybe we get lucky because UNC was missing their starting PG
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2016: No. 2 Villanova 64, No. 1 Kansas 59 - Wayne Selden lays goose egg from outside
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2017: No. 3 Oregon 74, No. 1 Kansas 60 - Devonte Graham lays goose egg from outside
I was most disappointed in 07 and 16, the rest were flawed rosters that were finally exposed.
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@Blown that would be an interesting idea, now see once again I learn something from here like most days -I never knew that Jesse Newell was on here. - -Wish someone could - -take a lot of work lol. - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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@kjayhawks saw your tag line. Maybe somebody needs to send a #BIFM shirt to Frank Martin?
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@kjayhawks And don’t forget that North Carolina coach couldn’t win a title at KU. I’d be interested to see this same chart with KU’s previous 14 appearances. We are at 28 in a row, right?
To me North Carolina is the only record on that list I would trade for ours. Those 13 conference titles aren’t nothing and missing the tournament seems absolutely unacceptable (UF, and UConn). Yeah, Duke has an extra title but they get sent home early more often than we do!
Also how about the fact that KU has more conference titles than UNC and Duke combined!
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Now my friends I will say this. - - I know there are people here disappointed about getting knocked out, and rightfully so, you/we all have that right to be. It’s called passion - - passion for the game - -passion for OUR team, and that’s awesome. I know there are one’s that feel Bill should/could do better at times and that’s fine I have no problems there, everyone has their take/opinion and to tell the truth this is one of the reasons I do enjoy coming in. Yes we can and have got into some heated exchanges but it’s all good everyone entitled to their own opinion. Now having said that brings me to this.
Like I said we all here have our opinions - - Then I go to other KU boards specifically the phog, I’m sorry but you have some on there that are just past moronic idiotic.Just totally off the wall - way over the fence in left field. This one for example kills me: - - Total embarrassment stating that he had never been so embarrassed as a fan - -How he was embarrassed felt ashamed to be a KU fan - -It’s statements such as this that really chap my a - - . I mean people such as this we have no need for as a KU fan base -your embarrassed? - - REALLY SERIOUSLY? - -how about this - -you embarrass us. - - I truly believe that some people have no comprehension no idea, no clue they just let words spew out their mouth before they make these kind of statements.
You don’t think realize that the players don’t rad these type of things made from the public? - -How do you think this makes these kids feel? - - You seriously don’t feel these players don’t give it their 100% you think they purposely go out and dog it during the games? - You think these kinds of statement from classless people such as yourself makes these kids feel proud to be a member of Jayhawk Nation? - -My response o idiots such as this are your embarrassed? - -YOUR EMBARRASSED? how about this - why don’t YOU KICK ROCKS, that way we/ Jayhawk Nation won’t be embarrassed by the likes of you - -get the hell out of here with that crap. - -We/Jayhawk Nation, the Ku team do not need fair weather closet bandwagon fans such as yourself pander. - -I mean JUMPIN - - GEE - -HOSSA - -FATS - - did you seriously go to school for 17 yrs to be so self educated ? to make such statements such as that? -The same applies to another individual that tried to insinuate that Devonte THREW the game - -OMG Now tell me to what purpose would it benefit Devonte to throw this game? - -come on - step away from the pipe and slowly back away - -Holy crap.
So just wanted to say guys & gals seeing as I never know who is who guys or gals here as I am still even after this time am new at certain things, I just want to say that even though we have our exchanges/debates this room gets for sure my props, a lot of very well versed individuals here even though we might not agree all the time - -I have yet to EVER EVER see such bull sh- - come out of anyone’s mouth such as off the phog’s - -you people are my Hawks and Hawkette’s or bud’s and Budette’s however you wanna put it - -so it’s time to just keep on rockin on - - - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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@HighEliteMajor I didn’t think our guys knew how to attack them. I don’t think we caught on until 30 minutes into the game, and then we couldn’t hit the broad side of a barn. We need a Dooley sitting by Bill’s side, imo.
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Is it me or is the local media making the KU loss to be way worse than it really was?
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@jayballer54 Anyone saying they were embarrassed is an egotistical SOB who has confabulated their self worth with the fortunes of a basketball team.
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@KUSTEVE Exactly. - - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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What this shows to me is how much we were really screwed out of a Final Four appearance last year. Calling Graham for the foul late in the game was one of the worst pieces of officiating I can ever recall. We may have lost in the championship to NC last year, but I’m confident we would have made the championship game. Had we been allowed to finish that game and win it, our E8 record looks a lot better.
This year, we were beat by a super hot and more talented team that played defense against us the right way.
We should all keep in mind that E8 is still “elite”, and I think we can be somewhat satisfied with our performance his year.
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@Eric-san As a retired coach in public I would take the blame for 90% of our losses. Never once did I blame a player or team for the loss. The other 10% were bad nights, bad breaks.
To me what happened Saturday was just that a bad night. Especially after the past three games came soneasily. Once you hit that bump in the road it just adds added pressure to the situation.
Last year KU won by around 18 points a game before losing to Nova. This year they were winning by around 30.
So when everything is falling and the ball bounces your way wow the feeling of ease makes the game easy.
When the shots aren’t falling or the ball bounces out of your hands into the opponents you seem to push the issue a little more adding pressure.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 So the defensive intesity the improved in the second have just happened! That wasn’t an adjustment made by the coaches?
I feel like you are asking to hear a story about Bill Self in the under 12 timeout telling jokes are pointing out a celebrity in the crowd ala Joe Montana in smthe suoer bowl pointing out John Candy innthebhuddle before the 49ers went on a game winning drive?
Different people handle pressure differently. Maybe Frank put so much pressure on himself to carry the entire team it affected him? How does Coach Self stop that? Bench him?
As a coach you can prepare prepare and teach and talk about it. But once the flame of the game is lit. Things change.
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@FarNrthJHwk You’re looking at this in a micro perspective and on a micro perspective, sure it was a bad night. Zoom out to the macro view though and you see bad nights like this happen like clockwork for Bill Self in the E8. Why do bad nights like this for Bill Self teams regularly happen in the exact same round (E8) for the exact same reason (lowest offensive scoring game of the season). That’s what I’m trying to wrap my head around and come up with theories.
Something happening once or twice in that many games can be chalked up to bad nights and worth investing time in. That’s not what’s happening though. This is now the 6th time in 9 games overall and 5th in 7 games at KU where Self’s team has had their worst offensive game in E8. That’s beyond coincidence and is a pattern that’s worth analyzing to see if there’s something Self does differently for the E8 than any other game that makes his teams have their worst games of the season.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 I understand that point of view and wanting to know.
Sat in a coaching clinic in very early 1990s and listened to football coach Tom osborn talk about his issues in bowl games and against Oklahoma. And how fans were always on him and wanted him fired or to change what he was doing the weeks leading up to those big games. How he’d go home and try and to think of ways to make those changes. From personell, to different coaches to going to a different school to coach. It weighed on him. He then decided that if he stood his ground good things would happen.
Wishing a few years he played for 4 national titles in 5 years and won three. Now he is known as one of the greatest college football coaches.
Not saying Coach Self can’t change things but what in your opinion does he need to change from Sweet 16 to Elite 8 in 48 hours?
Maybe his scouting of the other team? Manning. Dooley and a few others have left and they did scouting. They moved on so maybe that’s not it?
Maybe his philosophy? There are so many coaches in college basketball that the goal each season is to make the final 4. Not to win it all. They just want that chance in the Final 4. So the pressure starts on day 1 for some of these teams to reach that milestone of the Final 4.
There are an infinite number of reasons why something doesn’t work or doesn’t happen. Sometimes in life and in sports we just need to accept we can’t fix it or figure it out and just keep pushing forward.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 There you go with the notion that if something happens 6 out of 9 times it cannot be a coincidence. Why not? The numbers are not overwhelmingly unlikely.
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@KUSTEVE said:
@jayballer54 Anyone saying they were embarrassed is an egotistical SOB who has confabulated their self worth with the fortunes of a basketball team.
And, unjustifiably doing so since anyone disowning the team in defeat deserves no hint of the team’s success.
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@mayjay 6 out of 9 in a specific round of the NCAA tournament is a not a small sample size. Once you get that big of a sample size with the same result over an extended period of time, I don’t believe that’s a coincidence any longer. That’s a pattern or a trend to me.
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@FarNrthJHwk Without being able to observe routines firsthand or have accounts out there from former or current players/assistant coaches in regards to differences on Self’s preparation, scouting, demeanor, or other potential culprits makes it nearly impossible to anything other than speculate amd hypothesize.
