This is getting tiring.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 Are we talking about the Izzo that hasn’t won a title since 2000? 7 final fours in 18 years? Once again, Final Fours are great, if it leads to a National Championship. I’ll take my chances with Self.
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Anyone that thinks recruiting hits rough patches for KU now would LOSE THEIR MIND with Izzo.
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@BShark And only 59 points last year in the EE. That is the problem. We go from averaging over 90 down to scoring 60. The Dux D is good, but not that good. We just looked flat all night and it only takes one flat game to send you home.
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Agree bu it does sometimes feel like Duke, UK, and UNC to some extent get their choices and then the rest are fighting for scraps.
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I remember in 2003 when Roy missed all those free throws. That was annoying, too.
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@BigBad thats because they do. But Josh Jackson and Wiggins & the like are pretty decent scraps. We just don’t get 2-3 of them every year. Our lack of a skilled scorer inside last night was a huge hole. You can blame that on Braggs lack of development.
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Duke always closes their leans it seems. Team USA thing helps a lot and K is a “living legend”. Lately UK misses a fair bit, if you look at the final classes for them they aren’t bad because they need a ton of guys every year but 2015 in particular UK missed on a lot of their first choices. Self seems to have good and bad spurts in recruiting. Diallo and now Bragg struggling has hurt a lot. Now with Bragg it’s very clear that he just isn’t as good as his HS hype, but it still hurts in recruiting. Fortunately Josh was fantastic this year and I hope Preston and Doke tear it up next year. We have seen what having unathletic bigs looks like and it’s not pretty.
@Big-Clyde52 said:
@BShark And only 59 points last year in the EE. That is the problem. We go from averaging over 90 down to scoring 60. The Dux D is good, but not that good. We just looked flat all night and it only takes one flat game to send you home.
Agree. It’s a very negative trend and denying it at this point seems crazy. For whatever reason, Self’s teams play tight in EE games. Even in the wins.
@Blown said:
I remember in 2003 when Roy missed all those free throws. That was annoying, too.
Not the same thing we are talking about now 7 games for Self at KU where the team has played tight. Players do pick up on things from their coach. There are still very few coaches I would trade Self for though.
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I was so, so wrong about Bragg.
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@BShark How can you tell if coach was tight or not? Is it simply a direct correlation you draw between poor shooting?
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Self has openly commented about how hard elite eight games are. And the players have been tight you could really say in every EE game. In 2012 KU bullied a UNC team missing their PG, in 2008 they escaped Davidson in an otherwise great tournament that ended fantastically.
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@Eric-san So Izzo has the same number of titles as Self and 4 times the Final Four appearances which means four times better chances to win a title.
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@Blown Self reverted to form last night. Stopped subbing and quit making adjustments in the second half. Vick played reasonably well in the first half and actually scored. Why wasn’t he playing over Graham in the 2nd half who couldn’t hit water if he fell out of a boat last night? Why wasn’t he telling Mason, Jackson, amd Graham to drive the ball and get to FT line since the 3’s weren’t falling?
Self’s butt was than the security at Ft. Knox last night just like it has been in every Elite 8 game.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 Yea Izzo had 4 more chances at the title, but does chances equal winning? He hasn’t won a title in those 4 trips anyway, so does it really matter that Izzo made it to the Final 4?
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Everyone needs a day to process the loss. Nothing productive ever comes from bagging on things when the loss is so fresh. I’m just as guilty of it as the next person on here.
It sucks we lost especially how we played to get to this point. And the guys just didn’t respond how we hoped or wanted them too.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 I agree on the driving. I said at about the 6-7 minute mark that they needed to start driving every play. I don’t know why they didn’t other than the fact that Bell completely owned the paint blocked everything in sight without even getting 2 fouls called on him all game. 8 blocks. That’s big time.
As far as everything else goes: there is no explanation for the missed shots. Many were wide open looks and we just bricked them.
Part of the tightness could be attributed to 4 of the five starters experiencing last years elite 8 loss.
A big ‘what if’ I will always wonder is how much losing Josh 2 minutes into the game impacted the overall mentality. That second foul was bullsh**
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It’s all about the ride to the end, and no other school or team has a better ride during the season than KU does on a regular basis. It is just as important to enjoy the whole season as a fan, as opposed to the last 3 weeks of a single round elimination tournament, where the best team doesn’t always win.
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Matt Tait said we were loose as always in warmups. Perhaps we all tightened up when josh got his 2nd foul w/17 plus left? Completely changed the game. I think we were only 1 down when he came back in which speaks well for Vick. But josh was not the same! Oregon was our perfect storm no matter which game it was. Completely exposed our loss of Doke. Dg had an off pm. Oregon looked really good.
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@BeddieKU23 said:
Everyone needs a day to process the loss. Nothing productive ever comes from bagging on things when the loss is so fresh. I’m just as guilty of it as the next person on here.
It sucks we lost especially how we played to get to this point. And the guys just didn’t respond how we hoped or wanted them too.
Well said. This board has been really great in comparison to the drivel on 247 and phog though.
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@Crimsonorblue22 Losing JJ that early probably reminded the team of the TCU game and started panicking. As pressure started building, emotions started taking over.
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I was actually shocked to see JJ come back in with 10 minutes left. I thought Vick played just fine up to that point. And because JJ had to be careful of picking up a 3rd, he started to think instead of reacting. In hindsight would have been better to just sit JJ to the half, let him gain composure, and refocus to begin the 2nd half.
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@Eric-san said:
I was actually shocked to see JJ come back in with 10 minutes left. I thought Vick played just fine up to that point. And because JJ had to be careful of picking up a 3rd, he started to think instead of reacting. In hindsight would have been better to just sit JJ to the half, let him gain composure, and refocus to begin the 2nd half.
Agree here and think that a close game at half telling the team Josh didnt even play would build confidence. However its a gamble. Self probably saw how Oregon’s best athlete Bell was controlling things and how Mason was our only option. He knew we needed our best athlete to stay close.
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@BigBad I wonder why Vegas had us as 7 point favorites. It is amazing we even had a .500 record with the way you describe our players. The 5’10" guy happened to be the NPOY. Our record in EE games is now 2-5. That wasn’t a relaxed team I saw out there- that was a jazzed up team that played scared. Nice job picking out what you feel is a sleight in my post. Sounds like you want to pick a fight. Welcome to the board, btw.
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@Eric-san said:
I was actually shocked to see JJ come back in with 10 minutes left. I thought Vick played just fine up to that point.
I thought so, too, but then it occurred to me that Vick usually subs when someone needs a rest. DC was in for Lucas, so Josh had to come in to give Svi and Vick a rest. And Svi did come back with some energy esp on defense.
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@KUSTEVE said:
@BigBad I wonder why Vegas had us as 7 point favorites. It is amazing we even had a .500 record with the way you describe our players. The 5’10" guy happened to be the NPOY. Our record in EE games is now 2-5. That wasn’t a relaxed team I saw out there- that was a jazzed up team that played scared. Nice job picking out what you feel is a sleight in my post. Sounds like you want to pick a fight. Welcome to the board, btw.
I’m not picking a fight. I’ve learned to not fall into the Bill Self trap. EVERY year his teams exceed their talent level in their regular season. Then when a tourney match up up with a team with better talent playing well beats us. I dont usually get disappointed. Heck against VCU we, a freaking blue blood, were starting Brady Morningstar and Tyrel Reed. Great ROLE players but not final four caliber players. I wasnt surprised.
This year we depended on a very small player. Frank is great! However once the talent levels out and size becomes a huge factor we are in trouble.
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@Blown Oregon lost to Oklahoma in the Elite 8 last year. They were in the same boat as us and they were cocky and arrogant beyond belief last night.
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@BigBad Oregon does not have better talent than Kansas.
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You know who would’ve been a perfect counter to Bell? Carlton Bragg. He had every opportunity to develop and elevate his game this season and just could not get it to click. He can’t even claim having off the court issues as a reason because others on the team has had it much worse than Bragg.
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@Eric-san said:
You know who would’ve been a perfect counter to Bell? Carlton Bragg. He had every opportunity to develop and elevate his game this season and just could not get it to click. He can’t even claim having off the court issues as a reason because others on the team has had it much worse than Bragg.
Um, Bell is like two weight classes over Bragg in addition to being a great shot-blocker. There really is just no comparison. Carlton Bragg was never a real 4.
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@BigBad Anybody who thinks length wasn’t a big factor wasn’t paying attention last night. They had big guards that shot over us with confidence.
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@betterfireE I was just talking about being able to match up in size. Bell 6-9 225 Bragg 6-9 240.
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@betterfireE weren’t they 6-2 6-2 6-4 6-7 and 6-9?
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The height and weight might be comparable but they are worlds apart.
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@BShark That I agree with, hence the rest of my comment about Bragg not developing.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 good point. Is that from their coach? I heard their post game was bad. Didn’t watch it myself. Stem from contrasting leadership? Frank humble. Brooks an ass?
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@Texas-Hawk-10 said:
@BigBad Oregon does not have better talent than Kansas.
I said “However once the talent levels out and size becomes a huge factor we are in trouble.”
The talent was level was very, very close last night and the size/length goes to Oregon.
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Graham’s lack of athleticism really showed last night. Dorsey/Graham and Bell/Lucas is where Oregon had clear cut drastic advantages.
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@Blown Dillon Brooks is in the Grayson Allen level of ass. Just as dirty as Allen too.
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I want to see Graham come back as much as anyone but he will not be Mason-ish next year, just not the same kind of player.
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It was somewhat hilarious when K chastised Brooks last year.
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@BigBad Bullcrap it does. Mason was the only player smaller than the guy he was guarding, but that’s the case almost every single game.
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@BigBad Frank got his, and the team got what they wanted from Frank this game.
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Graham, Svi and Lucas have decent size for their positions, athleticism is the issue.
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@BShark I’m not gonna argue the athleticism, but that’s not what @BigBad is saying. He’s saying size and length and KU was had an advantage everywhere except for Mason who is a great defender period and can guard bigger than his size.
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@BShark said:
Graham’s lack of athleticism really showed last night. Dorsey/Graham and Bell/Lucas is where Oregon had clear cut drastic advantages.
Most here dont want to hear that.
Graham has used the attention Frank gets to get wide open shots and then uses his spastic head fake to clear himself from lower level defenders. Against size and length and equal quickness he struggles.
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Agree but the fact that nobody else could do anything we became one dimensional. Tough to win that way.
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We have been 1 dimensional all year.
Excellent 3
Average perimeter D
Below average interior d
Below average low post scoring
Below average free throw
All of those factored in last night
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@Blown Live by the 3, die by the 3.
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@BigBad The fact that you think I’m anti-Self is hilarious…lol. I am regularly chided by a whole slew of people on here as a “sunshine pumper”. I don’t think we attacked the Oregon defense correctly, which had a direct impact on our 3 point %. We kept trying to drive the lane through the matchup zone, which will not work. Frank had success doing it for awhile, but they took that away. Once our perimeter guys drove past the first defender, they were met by two other Dux. the easy play would be to pass it off to a set shooter on the wing, as JJ finally did to Svi with about 12 minutes to go. But that’s not what we did. Drive after drive into the heart of the defense- or rushing heavily guarded threes from the perimeter. Of course we aren’t going to make 3s when we aren’t open. We had to draw the defense in, and then make the pass to the open wing when their defense collapsed. You aren’t going to convince me we couldn’t have beat this team, so lets leave it at that.
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If at Late Night we were told that: Bragg would have ZERO impact on the season and Azibuke would be lost due to injury what would have been the expectations for this team?
I would bet that EVERYONE would agree that an Elite 8 run would be outstanding.
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This was another (very) disappointing loss, and emotions are raw in the moment, both for the players and the fans. But I don’t why everything has to be black and white - about the season, about Self, and about our tournament performance.
By all measures except one - a big one admittedly - this was a very successful season - 30+ wins, 13th consecutive conference crown - NPOY - Self showing more adaptability with his players than ever before, with entertaining results - a team with more grit and determination perhaps than many other recent Jayhawk teams - beat UK and Duke - epic comeback against WVU. Frank will go down as one of the all time greats at KU. JJ was the best OAD we’ve had - at least in terms of his play at KU. A lot to be grateful for and appreciative of with this team.
But that shouldn’t preclude a thoughtful discussion of the whys and wherefores of falling short again with regard to the goal each and every year at KU (yes we are blessed and cursed by high expectations) - a national championship or at least a Final Four appearance.
The numbers are what they are. Self’s 2-7 record in E8 games is what most folks are pointing the finger at. The one that really gets me is that we’ve had 8 #1 seeds during the Self era and have reached the FF only once during that time ('08). I haven’t gone back and checked this, but I think we have only beaten a higher seed team once during the Self era?
The bottom line is that we’ve consistently fallen short of playing to our expected seed over a long period of time during the tournament. That is a fact. The question is why? Luck? That may have something to do with, but again, it’s not a one, two or three time thing. Have we (and by extension the B12) been seeded higher than we should have? Probably yes to a degree, but that should actually make EASIER to advance further. And, advanced metrics have largely supported KUs seed most years - at least within a seed line.
Is something else going on? Is coaching an aspect - in terms of preparation, in-game adjustments, and the dreaded “tightness” factor? Perhaps it is inherently unknowable - certainly isn’t provable. By I’m one that has always had the feeling that Self does tighten up during the tournament and it is something could well be felt by and impact the players. It is most manifested in his substitution patters (or lack thereof) during the tournament. That our guys played not to lose, rather than playing to win.
I thought this year was different - that this team had a different character and swagger. But, after yesterday’s game, I don’t know what to think. Oregon struggled to put away URI and Michigan - could easily have lost either game. Didn’t really dominate Iona in the first round. Yet all 3 of those teams scored more points against Oregon than we did. We had our worst shooting %s and lowest point total of the year (eerily reminiscent of last year and other E8 results).
It took us forever to figure out their match-up on zone and adapt. We kept taking shots from the perimeter - some way too quickly - and didn’t drive the ball nearly enough (Frank did for a awhile, with good results). Perhaps we were cowed by Bell? Clearly having JJ on the bench hurt and while we were only down 1 when he came back in, he probably was playing less aggressively than he otherwise would have (and did in the second half).
How much of the game yesterday was on Self and how much of the KU performance in the tournament over the past decade and a half is on Self? I think some of it has to be - he is the one constant. Having said that, he is without question one of the small handful of best college coaches, a Hall of Famer, and I would still rather have Self than any other coach in the game - yes. But that doesn’t mean he is or should be immune from a critical assessment of why we continue to fall short of ours and his expectations…
