JOE DOOLEY MENTIONED AS TOM CREANS REPLACEMENT!
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XCLNT coaches deserve more loathing when their excellence depends primarily on shoe brand advantage.
Marshall at an adidas major will win no more than Marshall at a Nike mid major backed by Koch money.
I think Pitino, Alford, Crean and Self are better than most all Nike coaches simply by winning a conference title with 1/2 to 3/4s the player talent/depth combination.
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I’m just saying it’s possible. I don’t disagree, I think Marshall would be crazy to turn down Indiana, or even NC State for that matter.
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Marshall hasn’t exactly been landing great talent at WSU. He does a fantastic job with the lower ranked players he gets.
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@jaybate-1.0 did you see his fit in Canada! He is insane!
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@Crimsonorblue22 said:
did you see his fit in Canada! He is insane!
He totally lost it, over an exhibition game. That was horrifying.
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@BShark Gregg Marshall is 6’2". I’m not here to defend the guy. You have thrown all of these vile insults at the man in the last 30 minutes. Just doesn’t make sense. Now we hear from the peanut gallery that he’s “insane.” Whatever.
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Exactly, and how do you think he would be doing at Drake without the Koch thang?
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It doesn’t have to do with his height, but you are right, it’s probably best if we both drop it. I think he’s a good coach and I’ll just leave it at that now.
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@jaybate-1.0 Probably about the same as he did at Winthrop which was pretty damn good for a low major program.
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@HighEliteMajor I think you might have seen the “peanut gallery’s” comment out of context. @jaybate-1.0 had written “Marshall would be insane to go to an adidas program…” and I think the comment was more along the lines of evidence from that exhibition game in support of jaybate’s conjecture.
In any event, I actually agree with you that the criticism of other coaches here can get over the top. Then again, I have thought the same about your posts in years past about our own coach.
Tell me, which is worse, “Marshall is insane” or “Bill Self is an idiot”? Or denigrating another poster here with the “peanut gallery” insult? You have gotten offended many times by references such as that directed at you.
I think there is a pot seeking to meet a kettle to discuss shades of black.
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@mayjay I’m not biting …
And my post had nothing to do with @jaybate-1.0. That man wreaks of substance. One line sniping, with no substance, is peanut gallery stuff.
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@HighEliteMajor Yours didn’t, hers did. As evidenced by his name in it. Duh.
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@BeddieKU23 said:
It wasn’t meant to be an analogy, more a comparison point of how a lot of coaches tend to find themselves back where it started
Ok, change my wording from analogy to what you said you meant above and then my reasoning remains the same.
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@ et al
Marshall would be silly to move to an adidas contracted school in this recruiting environment. Or a UA contracted school for that matter. Unless…some deal has been worked out behind the scenes in Deep Basketball regarding Shoe Wars.
If he were the coach many here believe him to be, his chances of sustained success would be much greater at any major with a Nike contract.
People are forgetting that Indiana has not been an elite program, frankly, since Bob Knight left, and even Knight’s last several years after the 1976 team were notable for him fighting corruption and so not being allowed the best recruits money could then buy. Knight won a title or two just on sheer brilliance and one or two excellent college players on a team (e.g., Alford’s teams).
Indiana has never been a consistently good program during the life time of the high schoolers currently playing basketball.
Recruiting Indiana basketball under an adidas contract is about like recruiting Arkansas or Purdue under an adidas contract. Its been ages since they were considered elite programs and with adidas you better be one hot number in the minds of high schoolers, or you are never going to sign the 3-stars and 4-starts Self finds to glue together with his 1 OAD a season to stay even in the top half of a power conference.
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@mayjay said:
Tell me, which is worse, “Marshall is insane” or “Bill Self is an idiot”?
Okay, I can resolve this right now.
Marshall should be called “clinically unwise” for signing with an adidas contracted school.
No, I know @mayjay and that wouldn’t suffice.
Okay, Marshall would be just “unwise” to go with an adidas contracted program, because of the apparent recruiting constraints that imposes, when he could easily step up to a even a major and get the advantage of a Nike conveyor.
Marshall is a super coach. He is tough as nails, smart and ruthless. Not just any coach would have had the balls to have “provoked” Perry Ellis into viciously attacking the WSU guard’s elbow with Perry’s nose.
I have said for a long time that I want KU to beat the bejeezus out of Marshall (wherever he is) for what he and his Shockers did to KU, when we were down. He kicked the hell out of us and took names later.
He is a terrific coach IMHO.
But he not only beat us, he dragged us into an alley and kicked the hell out of us.
SO: WHAT GOES AROUND COMES AROUND AND HE’S GOING TO COME AROUND AGAIN AND WHEN HE DOES, I HOPE WE CAN BEAT HIM THE WAY ROY BEAT PITINO–150 TO 60 OR SO.
I DON’T WANT ANY OUR OF OUR GUYS TO ATTACK MARSHALL’S GUYS ELBOWS WITH OUR NOSES AGAIN.
I WANT OUR GUYS ELBOWS TO BE OFFERED UP FOR ATTACK BY THEIR GUYS NOSES.
ITS NOT PERSONAL.
ITS SPORTS.
ITS BILL BALL.
YOU HAVE TO PLAY IT ANYWAY THEY WANT.
So: yea, no one’s driving a wedge between @HighEliteMajor and me.
We debate vigorously enough without any assistance.
And we respect each other, especially when we differ.
Rock Chalk!
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I have to agree with @HighEliteMajor. There seems to be a visceral instinct to associate personal dislike with coaching competence or lack thereof.
I don’t like Calipari, I think he knows a lot more about the behind the scenes shenanigans that got players to UMass, Memphis and now Kentucky than has been proven. I don’t like Coach K, I believe he is smug, arrogant and sanctimonious. I don’t care one way another about Sean Miller and I don’t believe he is that different than most coaches except that because of the exposure he gets, exchanges in the huddle, that are normally private, get broadcasted and vilified, even when he did not do or say anything that other coaches don’t. I don’t care one way or another about Marshall personally and the dislike seems to come from off-the-record coments he made about KU. He wants to play KU desperately because there is lots of upside for his program and mostly downside for KU…do I like what he said? Of course not but I do understand; he is working to give his program an edge, which is his job, and after all he is the WSU and not the KU coach…what else do you expect him to say?
Having stated that I personally do not care for the four coaches in question, there is no question that hey are all outstanding coaches and all of them probably in the top 10…I would take any of them to coach my program instead of Cuonzo, Crean or Smart or any of the media hyped coaches that are not nearly as good.
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I seem to recall Indiana making a trip to the NCAA finals after Knight left…
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I like plenty of coaches that are very good, including ones that don’t coach at KU.
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Are we talking about the same Gregg Marshall who got ejected from a game for charging a pair of referees?
The same guy who’s been quoted saying things like:
“They’ve been big brother for so long and they just don’t want the little brother, who’s now grown up, to be able to compete with them and maybe win. They don’t want to give up that superiority in the household.”
or
“Look at my salary, that’s not mid-major.”
Maybe I’m wrong about the guy, but calling him kind of a dick with a little-man complex seems pretty accurate to me.
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Again, he is the coach at Wichita State and it is his job to promote the program…I am curious, what exactly would you expect him to say instead?
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@JayHawkFanToo There’s a lot classier ways to go about promoting your program than the way Marshall has chosen to promote WSU.
He very easily could’ve said in regards to trying to play KU that KU is the standard bearer and he’d like to see how his program stacks up against one of the best. The series ended because it got uncompetitive, but I think we can make it competitive again and it’s up to Bill self to decide if he wants to renew that series because we’re ready.
Same message about wanting to challenge, but doesn’t sound very dickish to me.
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@JayHawkFanToo he did call us chicken hawks
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WSU has been trying for a while now to get the series going but KU is not bitting since there is no upside. Now they are trying to shame KU into playing them and still will not work. It is not as big a deal as it has been made out to be by the media that loves controversy.
I have pointed out before that WSU’s trend is to have a few years of excellence and overachieving followed by many years of mediocrity. If Marshall leaves, WSU start the down cycle all over again.
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@JayHawkFanToo You asked if there was another way Marshall could promote WSU other than how he has. I used the way he’s trying to get the KU series going again as the example because there’s plenty of comments by Marshall on the matter out there and he comes across like a disrespectful dick in those comments. He could very easily have taken the high road by using a similar tone and message to what I said of being complimentary of KU and wanting restart the series as a measuring stick for WSU instead of the path he chose. Does being complimentary of KU guarantee the series would’ve been restarted? Absolutely not, but I do guarantee Self and KU would be a lot more willing to consider it if Marshall had taken that approach.
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I am sure that is not the worst KU has been called by other coaches. What do you think Weber, Drew, Smart, among others, say about KU at private booster function and when speaking off the record?
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That series is not happening regardless of what anyone says or doesn’t say. Ok, say Marshall is a dick, like you said, does this make him a poor coach as many posters say? I think not.
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@JayHawkFanToo this was on tv, I heard it
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Wait, who has said he is a bad coach?
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Of course I realize Indiana is a top program.
All I was saying is that Marshall has a lot to consider, including quality of life issues. He’s a family man so he can’t just run off only for his own ambition.
He is 10-times the coach of Shaka Smart… but they both have a similar style of playing the underdog card… and making a career off of it.
I don’t think Shaka’s underdog style is ever going to work at Texas. The very last thing Longhorns wants to hear is that they are underdogs!
So why will the underdog card work at Indiana? Since when does that school see themselves as zeroes in the basketball world?
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Yes, it was a leaked video someone recorded at a booster event where comments were supposed to be off the record.
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I will not name names but you can read some of the comments above.
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Everyone in here knows I want to play WSU every year. Marshall has made them a force and they play a style that always gets us in trouble in March.
But the real reason I want to play is to start a real rivalry. KSU just isn’t it.
I look at the UK/UL rivalry with envy. I know we may not be able to match that, but who says we have to? I think it does a lot for our program to have a real rivalry and that is a naturally forming rivalry. These schools just don’t like each other, period!
Don’t want to open a can of worms… but maybe I did anyways!
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@JayHawkFanToo said:
Again, he is the coach at Wichita State and it is his job to promote the program…I am curious, what exactly would you expect him to say instead?
This is the comment I’m responding to which has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not the man is a good coach. You asked if there was another way he could promote WSU, and the evidence being presented at that point was in regrads to Marshall trying to restart the KU series so that’s the example I went with.
All my point was is that the way Marshall is trying to restart that series by being a disrespectful dick to KU on the issue to try and bully Self into scheduling a series has no chance of working and KU not even interested in listening. All I did was provide an example of how Marshall could’ve taken a more respectful approach and that probably at least gets a meeting to explore the possibility of restarting the series.
Notice how nowhere in any of my posts did I say that approach would be guaranteed to restart the series, just that approach would probably make KU at least willing to listen.
How you spun me calling Marshall a dick into meaning he’s a bad coach is something I can’t figure out because my opinion of Marshall has nothing to do with the discussion.
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@drgnslayr Marshall doesn’t play the underdog card at WSU, he plays the disrespected, chip on his shoulder card which works anywhere.
We’ve talked about that in regards to KU on multiple occasions, including this year with all the media attention and KCStar witch hunt.
The mentality Marshall has taken is not the underdog card.
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@JayHawkFanToo nope it was after they got home from winning the nit and they were celebrating in Koch arena.
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Okay… I’m fine with your refined definition of Marshall’s tactics.
Does the “disrespected chip on his shoulder” work at Indiana? Do the fans and players at Indiana feel disrespected?
I’m skeptical about most “chip” strategies at big schools. Heck… I’ve been screaming for years here at Kansas that we need a chip and can’t get one. I feel certain that if we could use a chip, then Bill would figure out how to do it.
Indiana basketball players are not only Gods at their school, but throughout the state of Indiana. I don’t see a way of turning them into feeling victimized.
I say that after years of trying to force a chip at Kansas. Years…
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I was replying in general terms and based on the tenor of the thread. I did not mean to imply you personally called him a…Brannen Greene move.
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Yep, Knight’s assistant took his guys once, and Crean had a good team for 1-2 years, and Sampson even gathered some guys if I recall correctly.
IU would be a good program to build, if the fans would ever recognize the Shoe wars recruiting constraints. A coach can have occasional deep threats there with adidas, same as Self at KU and Pitino at Ville, but the Knight loyalists MIGHT NOT even settle for what KU and Ville fans have.settled for.
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I saw that tape but never heard him say “chicken hawk.” Does anyone have a copy where he clearly says it? I’d like to see it.
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Why are we even talking about Marshall? Don’t we have better things to talk…like the upcoming game in less than 2 hours.
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@drgnslayr I don’t know, I saw it live though. He was muttering. Texas wouldn’t interview him. I heard a long time ago, before the chicken hawk incident, from an ast d-1 coach that Gregg Marshall was not highly thought of from other coaches. It had nothing to do w/coaching. I really don’t care whether you like him or not. I don’t.
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@drgnslayr I have a feeling Marshall would have no problem playing the arrogant we’re vetter than you card at Indiana if he were to go there which would play into their alumni mentality as well.
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I think board rats are confusing hatred of disrespectful, bottom dealing, kick you when you’re down jerks with coaching excellence.
I think Rat face, Cal, Jay Wrong and Marsha and Stumpy are very good coaches, when on a Nike teat and getting a favorable whistle. But none of them could out coach Self, Pitino, and Bo Ryan (when he was still coaching) even up. Hell, Cal couldn’t even beat Self with a bunch of ringers in 2008 and barely sneaked by with 6 OADs and Self without a McD in 2012.
I hate the coaches above because they are jerks exploiting unfair advantages and engaging preemptively in dirty play on a frequent basis. Well, Cal doesn’t play dirty. He just recruits slimy. And Jay? Well, he’s just a jerk to opposing coaches and players.
Well, I really don’t hate them, but I have a clinically strong dislike of them.
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A lot of the so called shoe wars are based on comment made by Pitino, but taken grossly out of context, when you read the entire comments and not one sentence in isolation.
I believe I posted the entire statement for your benefit before and Pitino clearly and explicitly says that shoe brands are a non factor.
The great Willie Mosconi is quoted as saying…a good pool player with a broom stick will beat an average player with a Balabushka…likewise in basketball…a great coach with good players on Chuck Taylors will beat an average coach with better players on Nikes…up to a point, of course.
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I recall you posting it. And I recall being glad you posted it. And I recall interpreting it 180° opposite of how you interpreted it. I still do. Pitino appeared to be commenting with bitter irony. You took him literally. Regardless, I fail to grasp how someone that watched the three Adidas coaches I have listed recruited and compared it with the way the Nike coaches mentioned recruited since 2008 could without tongue probing deep in cheek infer that there appears to be symmetry in recruited talent distribution independent of shoe brand.
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I see your point. And Indiana has been irrelevant for so long now.
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I heard the same thing. I do respect Marshall for building good teams… but that doesn’t mean I have to like him.
I guess Marshall never feels comfortable. He’s like those little dogs that constantly pant and fidget around. He carries such a personal chip all the time, it must be hard to have normal moments with him.
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That is not my recollection. I recall you agreeing that when you read the entire statement the context is different than whe reading the one sentence that was the gist of the shoe influence argument in isolation. Of course this does not fit your ongoing shoe war narrative so I really don’t expect you to remember it any other way.
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First, it appears already time to call bull biscuits on “on-going narratives”, same as it came time for calling bull biscuits on “conspiracy theory”.
“On-going narratives” is for suckers, same as “conspiracy theories.”
I reject all “on-going narratives,” unless scientifically proven as empirically verified fact at a 95% confidence interval. I’ve had it with tolerance about these kinds of weaponizations of language.
Further, I reject all “on-going narratives” attributed to me, since I know my own thoughts and can assert unequivocally that I intend to proffer no “on-going narratives.” Zero. Zip.
I offer hypotheses occasionally and discuss data points and possibly related situations, if and when they arise. I also speculate, opine, do comedy, analyze a little and generally kibitz with board rats. I proffer no “on-going narratives” unless everything one posts were considered “an on-going narrative.” I am quite unplanned about my own future content here. I haven’t a clue what i might write tomorrow, so I know I am not crafting an “on-going narrative,” intentionally. And if it’s occurring randomly, well, then time and randomness will fix that.
So, to reiterate: “On-going narratives” is for suckers.
And as an aside, isn’t “on-going narrative” a trendy rhetorical device (meme?) of fake news; i.e., a vernacular of purveyors of disinformation? You don’t want to be lumped with that group of mind copulators. Heck, I may have thoughtlessly used the term once or twice, too. But I’m going cold turkey on it now that I see how it appears to be tending to be used recently.
Next. Hmm. You appear to mean that your recollection differs from my recollection about what it appeared to you that I once appeared to you to believe.
Hmmm again.
If you are going to claim you recollect what I meant in my mind more accurately than I do, then I don’t see how you can expect to be taken seriously by me, or anyone else. It’s tough enough for me to figure out what I mean sometimes. I just don’t know how you could get in my mind and know more what I mean than I do? Unless some one in MK-Ultra in Langley has developed a “retroactive mind meaning” device, I just don’t see how you can persuasively claim to know more what I “meant” than I do.
Similarly, anything I say in the present I have to think I know more what I “mean” than you know what I mean. And vice versa. Capice?
We can debate our positions on issues, but surely we at least still get to insist on what we mean/meant, as a point of departure.
And I reckon we get to change our minds and acknowledge doing so, too, but I am not wittingly trying to change my mind on you, and would happily say so if I were.
I understand my own bungling at communication, or some bungling on your end, could cause you to misunderstand my intended meaning. And I could inaccurately recall what I said. But surely at the end of the day I am more likely to recall what I meant than you are likely to recall what I meant, because, well, because I’m in my head and you’re not and never were. You might even remember my written words more accurately (you a have time or two, but I doubt it in this case), but surely I am still more reliable an indicator as to their intended meaning, than you, regardless.
If A starts an exchange with B and A believes A knows more about what B means in B’s mind, or meant in B’s mind, than B does, that makes conversational exchange futile–and borderline Orwellian.
I consider hypotheses and explore possible data as situations arise and/or thoughts occur to me. I have no grand plan betrayed by “an on-going narrative.”
“On-going narrative” is for suckers.
Rock Chalk!
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@drgnslayr said:
I guess Marshall never feels comfortable. He’s like those little dogs that constantly pant and fidget around. He carries such a personal chip all the time, it must be hard to have normal moments with him.
Remember when he took the College of Charleston job for 24 hours, then decided he would stay at Winthrop? Like Cremins, who did that to the Gamecocks.
