Loss Starts With Self
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@KansasComet Respectfully disagree.
The better TEAM definitely won. The team with the most talent and deer in the headlights look did not win.
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@HighEliteMajor Please do not turn in your credentials. That would be an incredibly huge loss to this board.
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@Crimsonorblue22 - We weren’t in “serious” foul trouble. And it is not hard to press when in foul trouble. It’s like any other defense, you play it and don’t foul. A misconception (not saying you, but in general) on pressing many times is that you are trying to steal the ball all the time – you are and you aren’t. The best “press” is one where you don’t reach and grab trying to steal the ball. You let them throw it away or you intercept, much like we did yesterday. So I don’t think that it necessarily is something you don’t do if you have foul worries.
Regarding Tharpe, I am curious as to what your opinion is of Tharpe. What I am really interested in is what he has provided to this team. Let’s get past the fact that he’s a Jayhawk, and we personally like the guy. Seems like a great kid. I see a player whose production has gone straight downhill, and who has been nothing but a negative in terms of production. The efficiency ratings, etc., if you like those things, demonstrate that further.
During the tournament, he was 4-11 shooting, 1-4 from 3 point range, 5 assists, 6 turnovers, 9 points. All in 47 total minutes of play. And I do not need to go into the defense thing.
I feel even stronger about my post above now, with the additional explanation in response to @icthawkfan316, than yesterday.
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@KU-Good take. A hi lo, pick & roll offense is simple enough for 12 & 13 year olds to execute. If you go to the library (old school internet) there is a wealth of info dated back for decades on the subject. In my opinion it’s as easy an offense to teach as there is, but that’s just me.
What we consistently lack with a BS team is as several have noted. We simply do not have confident shooters regardless of their resumes & this is because of the “Wrath of Bill” regarding shot selection. If the ball is reversed a couple of times, is touched in the paint by a big or two, & the shot clock is under 15, then if you’re open, OK take it. But His kids consistently pass up good looks early in the clock because they’re doing it his way & the 3 pt shot is only optional when that’s all that’s available. This is not conducive to a lethal sniper’s mentality. These guys are still just kids who in many aspects of life are still wet behind the ears, & their confidence is shaken easily & the behaviors you wish them to display must be positively reinforced over, & over, & over again. If he’s not letting them take the open 3 early in the clock all the time, then he’ll have a tough time getting someone to nail a couple when it’s the only option to extend a game when time is running out. Like I said a couple of times about Bill using Conner, it frosts my butt that he was available as a viable counter puncher, playing fully within the flow of the game, nailing open shots, making good decisions, and Bill kept Tharpe on the floor far, far too long. But it’s just spilt milk now, & the cookies are all gone till next Autumn.
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Yesterday I wished that Bill Self was a mismatch type of coach.
Stanford had size and was giving us fits inside. I wanted so desperately for Self to go small (Frankamp, Mason, Greene, Wiggins, and one of the Black, Ellis, Traylor trio). That would have slotted Wiggins in the high post of that zone offense where, as the announcers observed, he could have done a lot of damage.
@globaljaybird
I think you make a good point about not instilling confidence in shooters, but I would take it even one step further. Self’s offense doesn’t encourage his best players to be creative. How often did we see Wiggins and Selden vanish on the perimeter? Yet both of those guys could have and probably should have been 15+ ppg scorers. Yesterday those two took a combined 11 shots. KU was struggling to get good looks, yet their two most creative scorers only took 11 shots? Perry Ellis took 10 shots, and we all know he struggles to score against size.
Yesterday would have been the perfect day to go to a version of the dribble drive motion. Stanford’s size gave them an advantage against the standard high low look. But we had the quickness advantage, an advantage we did not exploit because we didn’t change up what we were doing.
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Did we actually get any points off the press yesterday? I know at one stretch we turned them over twice but we were so rattled ourselves that we missed a couple rushed shots then threw it away and they got a bucket and a foul.
(Probably a good example of why Self needs to use the press a little bit more during the year just so the guys know how to amp up then settle back down.)
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1). I’ve debated this with someone before but this is another team (coaches and players) L. Self didn’t make the right calls early enough, at the right times, or at all. The players, excluding Black, didn’t play with the passion and desire to win yesterday. Heads were hanging and their body language was very poor for most of the game and it was like that for most of the season when things weren’t going well. It’s amazing to me when one guy plays like a pile of crap the whole team takes on that play like crap attitude. And what hurt us the most was valuing the possession never appeared to be a concern for this team. We turned it over on average 19% of our possessions and turned the opponents over less. Tharpe isn’t the only to blame here. Traylor, Wiggins, Selden, ect were all bad passers and traveling machines.
2). We need to learn how to drive the lane and draw fouls. Too often when someone does get into the paint they shy away from the contact. Picking up early and often fouls on the other teams bigs, kind of like what teams try to do to us, should be something we work on every year. Especially when our MO is pounding it inside. If we can foul up their bigs early and often then our High-Low works that much better. This is what makes guys like Kane and Smart a pain in my ass.
3). I agree with all the points on finding our own Heslip or Forte. CF should be that guy. And throw in Greene and White too if they had any confidence. Someone said it above, guys are too scared to let if fly early in the shot clock because they’re afraid of the quick yank. I don’t know if Self truly does put this into the mind of the guys (it appears that way at times) but if CF, BG, and others feel this way Self needs to change that mind set. Giving up a great open look early on to guys that we’re told are deadly from 3 just because we want to run the O is moronic. And if he’s going to implement his quick yank then that standard should have been upheld with Tharpe and Johnson the past two years!
4). With the talent and athletes riding the pine every game it would have been nice to see us press more yesterday (and throughout the year). This would have given more guys a chance to play and build some of the much needed confidence CF, BG, AW3 lack. I know their d is suspect at best but the only way to get better sometimes is to be thrown to the fire. And honestly I’d take a few more L’s during the season to have the depth and confidence that a team like Michigan State has. Granted their reason for having to play guys that probably wouldn’t have played all that much this year was due to injuries you can’t argue that they’re not a MUCH better team for it and why they’re considered a favorite to win it all at a 4 seed.
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@drgnslayr I love your post, and particularly the last three paragraphs – sheer brilliance.
The best part: “If this game had been played on the Mayan courts at Chichen Itza 1300 years ago and the losing team would be sacrificed to the sun God… I’m pretty sure we would have won.”
Damn right we would have won.
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@globaljaybird - Sheer brilliance as well. Great quote below.
“We simply do not have confident shooters regardless of their resumes & this is because of the “Wrath of Bill” regarding shot selection. If the ball is reversed a couple of times, is touched in the paint by a big or two, & the shot clock is under 15, then if you’re open, OK take it. But His kids consistently pass up good looks early in the clock because they’re doing it his way & the 3 pt shot is only optional when that’s all that’s available. This is not conducive to a lethal sniper’s mentality.”
A great example was CF’s three at the end of the half. I bet that dude could do exactly that 50% of the time when he’s not worried, not thinking about the ramifications of shooting – just shooting.
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@truehawk93 I watched the Baylor-KU game live, in person. We did a great job of attacking their zone. When our #4 guys make 4 of 18, miss 14 bunnies, there’s the game. Jmo
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Once again, the pins fall down in front of us, and we roll it into the gutter. Seemed like a date with Florida was inevitable. Beat the 10-seed and 11-seed, sure no problem. But instead we tripped on our shoelaces and lost to inferior competition.
We basically had three guys show up to play yesterday. Tarik and Conner obviously, and even though Jamari struggled some, and wasn’t nearly as good as he was Friday, I give him credit for staying engaged and trying to make plays. Tarik, Conner, and Jamari. Were those the guys we were thinking of back in August and September when we were talking about a championship? Or even last week? Is that the core of the 2013-14 Jayhawks? Our marquee guys completely shriveled up, afraid to penetrate, afraid to feed the post, afraid to set a screen, afraid to box out, afraid to THROW IT THE F**K DOWN…and even then we still had a chance. Unfortunately our best player was also afraid to take the shot. He couldn’t get rid of it quickly enough on that final possission, deferring to a guy that averaged 8 minutes a game (who at least had the stones to shoot it, even though he was well defended).
Now we pick up the pieces, figure out who’s back and who’s gone, and get back to work. It’s the only thing we can do now that the dance is over. I have to think after two years of attrocious PG play leading to early exits, that will be priority #1, both on the recruiting trail and in the gym.
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@Kip_McSmithers - Yet more sheer brilliance.
“Giving up a great open look early on to guys that we’re told are deadly from 3 just because we want to run the O is moronic.”
The pass the ball and focus on getting the ball inside all the time made a lot more sense when there was no three point line. I don’t think we should shoot bad or marginal 3s early, but we shouldn’t discourage the open look 3 early in the clock – heck, if we shoot an open look three at 33.3%, it’s equal to 50% on two point shots.
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@Kip_McSmithers-Great observations. Wiggs & Wayne made some crap TO’s & also made some decent entry passes too. Quite frankly when they did, the guys in the 4 & 5 spots just didn’t finish. I’m more & more of the belief that Self needs to tweak his offense & be able to adjust accordingly during the contest. He just was unable to do this on too many occasions this year & years prior. The trifecta is such a huge part of the game now that Bill has got to evolve whether he wants to or not. This is very apparent in the tournament when mid majors & smaller schools continue to knock off one dimensional teams year after year. Also, the quick yank may not be all there is to the process for poor shot selection issues. Bill may be running the dog krap out of these kids in the gym as a penalty for not doing it the right (his) way. I know that’s what our coaches did when I was a young. Pain & suffering from added PT was the rule & not the exception. My coaches ran practices like a flippin boot camp every day, not just a week or two by itself. One I played for was at LHS for years, & warm & fuzzy was not what I was ever exposed to ever. Even when we went to State or won it, it was all business as usual. Lombardi once said “Fear is the greatest motivator” and my coaches lived & breathed on that assumption. Just getting a smile was virtually impossible, let alone getting a pat on the back.
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@HighEliteMajor I agree w/your press reasons. I think starting out in a press juices up a team. But, we needed Tarik to play a lot of minutes yesterday. Not sure we can effectively press w/him in. Traylor is perfect for that, and he did a good job. As far as Tharpe goes, I see his problems, we all do, but to wonder how far we’d be if he hurt his ankle? Conner will be a great shooter, already is. But, he can’t penetrate like Mason, or guard a guy like randle. I hope we see more of Greene and Conner next year shooting lights out. Quicker and stronger! Our 4 guys missed 14 bunnies, game! Jmo
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By no means do I want to be a team that lives and dies by the jump shot/three like Duke but it would be nice to have a sure fire option that would open up the inside and spread the defense for the bigs and driving. When Heslip, Forte, Frazier II are roaming the perimeter you know teams running a zone are shading their way more. Or in M2M their guy isn’t sagging as much to clog the lane (unless you play for Kansas then you still do that…) which gives their bigs a little more space and their slashers less hands to swat and swipe the ball.
All I want is for someone to consistently make teams pay for going under screens like we do. For someone that WE can find before the D sets up that is simply lights out. The guy that can make a 7 point deficit go bye-bye in 26 seconds. Heslip was 47.3% from 3 this past year. Frazier II and Forte were 44%. That’s what I want to see from someone wearing a KU jersey. Instead we have lights out guys in the low 30’s. :’(
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I can’t blame a coach for a loss, he can’t go out there and make lay ups, get steals and make the right pass.
What Coach Self has done was given his players to knowledge and tools to do all of those things.
I don’t see why he has to change his coaching style when the ball just won’t go through the net.
I see people say we needed to press earlier, sure makes sense in hindsight and away from the game, but do you want to run your players legs out from under them to early in the game? if you are not a a pressure team it is hard to apply pressure for long periods of time.
Look their height bothered us, coach Self can’t stretch the players to new lengths, they made baskets. It wasn’t our D we turned them over we got steals and stops, we just couldn’t hit water if we fell out of Noah’s Ark on day 32.
It happens, we all just need to take a collective deep breath, count to 10 and exhale and wait for next year and see what that brings.
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Excellent post. Bill has proven himself to be a “stubborn ol’ ball coach.”
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He continued to play Tharpe when it was obvious in the EKU game that Connor could protect the ball, create assists successfully and (when open) can really shoot the 3-ball. Just like Elijah’s poor, poor performance in the tourney last year, Bill seemed unable to recognize it (or was just too stubborn to take out the “senior” member of his squad).
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I question whether Bill values the 3-point shot. We’ve played many teams that make a point to run offense to get an open shot. Conner was, by far, the most prolific 3-point shooter in his hs class. We never developed him. Yet, at crunch time, they ran the Chop play twice and twice Connor hit threes. He had talent that was not utilized this season.
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Will Bill move Perry to his natural position – the 3? Every time we faced a “Long” team this year, Perry tried, but was ineffective. He is NOT a power forward at 6’ 8".
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Lastly, under Self, we have been notoriously ineffective against zones. I believe that is because we don’t play zone ourselves. I don’t believe we played zone one time this year. Here’s the deal. If you don’t play zone, the only time you EVER practice against the zone is the day before your play a zone team. That is not enough. If Bill practiced and played at least a little zone himself, his teams would be better prepared to play against it!
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Oops. One more! Notice how slowly Stanford played. We let them dictate tempo. Bill was stubborn again. Late in the game, he finally pressed. It worked. The game sped up. We got turnovers . . . . but it was too late. It’s a shame because Stanford basically played six while we have a deep bench.
PS I would never advocate replacing HCBS. 10 conference championships in a row and every year we have a good chance at a good tourney showing.
Rock Chalk!
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Looking for an answer. (By now, certainly someone knows.)
Three years ago I sat in AFH, across from the KU bench, at the KSU game. Behind our bench was Tarczewski, his Dad, Peters (who had already committed) and his parents. I thought. “Wow. What a tandem that could be.” Now that tandem is together at AZ.
Peters was the best player (it was reported) on the overseas pre-season trip his freshman year. Then concussion(s), left school, juco, now at Arizona. He’s sitting at the end of a very short bench. (AZ only dresses 10!) As it turns out, I’m not sure we are missing out on much. But the question remains, why did Peters REALLY leave KU?
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@Kip_McSmithers-Coach Konsonants doesn’t like to play that way either but adjusts his attacks to match his kids talents & game conditions. Recently he’s had the Plumlee bros, & recruited Tarik heavily as they had little size/depth this year & wanted to shore his rebounding. We would have blown them away without Parker when we played them in Chi town as they had no presence to offset our guys at the 4 & 5 spots.
I’m not recommending Bill change his style at all, but only be better strategically prepared with plan B or C options when plan A fails. Is similar to a 2 min offense in FB, which is entirely different than normal. It’s comparable to changing up defenses on the opposite side of the ball & as we all have to admit, can be used advantageously at varied points in the game to augment changing opponents attacks against you, foul adjustments, ref patterns, etc. which you must take all changing conditions into account to put your team in the best position to be successful. Just to be proactive instead of reactive using different strategies is really the whole idea. It sometimes seems as if we are completely predictable with no other strategies at times & is super frustrating for those of us who have coached & played under game conditions. Could any of us do it better? Doubtful. Could Bill do it better, absolutely from where some of us view it. This is just my opinion, but when you’re too set in your ways not to change your approach or views to a problem, then you’re not helping your team as much as you can. Even at my age when I watch KU hoops, my heart will still just race & pound & am sitting on the chair edge or getting up off the couch (bench) & talking to myself. The wife thinks it’s silly but it is what it is. Guess it’s in the genes guys, what else can I say. My first recollection of KU BB, I was in the crib & watching my Dad go wild when they won the 1952 NC.
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Robert Burns famously wrote:
But, Mousie, thou art no thy lane,
In proving foresight may be vain;
The best-laid schemes o’ mice an’ men
Gang aft agley,
And lea’e us nought but grief an’ pain
For promised joy!
From which the expression “the best laid plans of mice and men often go awry” was derived.
It does not make a bit of difference how good of a plan Coach Self can come up with if the players do not properly execute it. The game plan against Stanford was not bad, the bigs were given the ball inside, by the basket and in good position to score, and time after time they missed layups, short jumpers and tip ins, plays that they normally convert with a high percentage of success; there is a reason why they are called “bunnies.” Yesterday, time after time they failed to convert. What is Coach Self do to? Run into the court and score for them? It must be extremely frustrating for coaches to come up with a good plan, run it during practice and have the players completely miss it during the game. Coach Self is not the only coach frustrated with his players not executing; look at this video of Calipari physically going into the court and shoving his player into position:
Link to Calipari pushing player into position…
Now, how many time do you think Coach Self has been tempted to run into the court and force players to execute the game plan? I would say many times per game.
All I am saying is let’s not be too quick in blaming Coach Self for yesterday’s loss.
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@JayHawkFanToo The first play I was ever in… “Of Mice & Men”…my fav line was, “Damnit Lenny !! We ain’t got no ketchup.”
As a hs kid in the 60’s I thought it was cool to be able to swear in school, & did so with great fervor.
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@JRyman-Positively true, but the coaching staff should still be able to get them in the best position to be successful based on changing game conditions. That & adequate preparation is pretty much all you can do as a coach. Bill will adjust a little, that’s why he’s been in the Big dance 19 straight years. As the game, recruiting, & officiating continues to evolve, the great coaches will also adjust.
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After the loss yesterday I sat down and watched the Wichita State - Kentucky game. I did this for two reasons. 1) I thought it would be a good game. 2) I really love watching hoops.
I was rewarded on both fronts.
Something very interesting stuck out to me with what Calipari did to Wichita State. Through the course of the season, 9 Shockers averaged 12 or more minutes per game. Yesterday, UK trimmed WSU’s rotation to 7 pretty effectively. Coleby was basically taken out of the game right off the bat. And as soon as Wessel came into the game, UK attacked him until WSU took him back out.
I’ve often watched Self and noticed that he doesn’t insist that his players overwhelm a bad matchup. He let’s teams play in bad matchups and stay in their regular rotations. He doesn’t just say - if you leave that guy on the floor we are going to attack him in the man, attack his side in the zone, make him handle the ball on offense, etc. He does not exploit when the matchups swing in his favor.
As I said in another thread, when Stanford was in foul trouble, he could have put Wiggins at the high post with four shooters around him and let him attack and distribute. Make Powell and Nastic have to guard a quick guy like Wiggins in space. Make them guard a guy like Selden or Greene out on the perimeter. Change the matchups to do something in your favor. That didn’t happen yesterday.
Self is a great coach, but without an exceptional defense he has been hamstrung all year. I just hope he figures it out because his best two defenders are likely going to be gone from this team.
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@MoonwalkMafia-Somehow I missed your last paragraph about Embid. IMO it’s a no brainer, he’s gone. At least it’s a no brainer for me looking at the money he’d be gambling by staying. Now he’s still a mystery & he’ll get picked high because of the flashes of brilliance he’s demonstrated. If he stays, his flaws could be exposed like M Smart & fall down the board quite a lot. His Dad is in the military & surely not what we may consider wealthy by US monetary standards. That’s a potential multi million dollar gamble. I think he’s much smarter than the namesake is. Then again, that might only be the equivalent of a bag of hammers !! LOL
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@REHawk thanks for the kind words. I very much enjoy your tempered insight as well. You mention Self needing to make some form of adjustment.
I personally think – and have mentioned this before – that leaders in all walks of life become arrogant. They believe their way is the best way, and many times the only way, because it has provided great success. Therefore, unlike others not in that position, they are more reticent to change. It’s their way, their system. I do see this with coach Self.
But like you and most everyone here, we know that 95% of what he does is exquisite. It’s the 5% that he might consider some “adjustment.”
The three point shooting and its relation to tourney champions was a pretty easy stat to notice early on. I might agree with him not prioritizing it IF he had a stud defensive team. But we didn’t have that going for us. Three point shooting is huge, huge part of the game now. It does not appear to be a part of the game that coach Self embraces as a priority.
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@justanotherfan “I’ve often watched Self and noticed that he doesn’t insist that his players overwhelm a bad matchup.”
That is a great point. Like posting up Wiggins (or a guard like TT, EJ, Selden) on an undersized defender.
On the other site, I recall a few folks posing that exact same question – why not exploit some matchups like that?
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@JRyman - I cannot disagree more with your comment - “I can’t blame a coach for a loss, he can’t go out there and make lay ups, get steals and make the right pass.”
If a coach was not important, then why not hire the English professor?
A coach means everything … I mean everything.
A coach decides game plans, personnel, and scheme. A coach develops the overall strategy. Imagine World War II without generals. You have troops running wild without any organization.
In basketball terms, it would be pick-up ball.
You “can’t blame a coach for a loss”?
I posted this on another thread in response to @konkeyDong blaming missed shots:
When you blame missed shots in the face of misfires in strategy and scheme, you fall prey to an argument that can be made any time, any where, about any coach. Essentially any coach is immune because his players have to execute.
Mickey Mouse could be coaching, and if players don’t make shots, they aren’t going to win.
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This post is deleted!
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@justanotherfan It’s trademark Bill Self to adjust his lineup to defensively match the opponent rather than the other way around. Look at Withey v. Mizzou… they didn’t have a guy over 6-7 that last year in the conference, and Self didn’t bother to make offensive adjustments to exploit that advantage. I’ve all but given up on expecting Self to use an offensive advantage to force an opponent into a bad matchup unless it already fits into the offensive set. Ever see a Self team try to force an opposing player into foul trouble? I can’t think of one time, but it happens to us constantly.
Generally, the defensive mindset works, but–after watching most of that game again-- it’s really pretty hard to excuse the way Wiggins was used offensively against Stanford. No adjustments were made at the half. It would have totally f-ed Stanford up to move Wigs to the high post where he could drive or pass out of the triple teams. There was no attempt to even use Wigs as a decoy. A total waste of a thoroughbred among a bunch of mules.
I disagree with HEM that 1) Tharpe playing was really much of a problem, and 3) we didn’t necessarily need to hit a bunch of threes to bust the zone; but, as for 2) scheming with Wiggins, that was an absolutely abysmal job by the coach.
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@DanR a bunch of mules? Really?
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@Crimsonorblue22 LOL. Too far with the hyperbole?
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@DanR you can write want ever you want. Just makes me sad that we resort to name calling and broken ankles. I appreciate all the time and work these coaches and players put in and I value their worth more than a mule. This team was a lot of fun for us to follow. I can’t wait til next year, and my goal is always the same. NC!
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@Crimsonorblue22 The “mule” dig was referring to the Stanford team. I watched the game with a PAC homer, and he was shocked that a KU team of Micky D’s and the best player in college BB couldn’t whip a mediocre PAC Stanford team that most people on the west coast thought shouldn’t have been in the tournament. Anyway, mules are great if you’re plodding down a canyon…
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@DanR sometimes I get them mixed up w/jackasses!
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@Crimsonorblue22_Don’t fret,they have the same problem on a much greater scale in misery-and you think they, if anybody, would know the difference.
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I absolutely agree that Self wants to match up defensively rather than offensively. The problem was, without Embiid, we could not match up defensively. That’s where I fault Self. We just didn’t have the size. Black and Ellis were already undersized, and trying to go with either Traylor (even smaller) or Lucas (less skilled) wasn’t a long term solution.
Basketball is the game where skill matters most, because you can only play 5 at a time. We didn’t go with the guys that were our (potential) best five on Sunday. That five was probably either Tharpe, Frankamp, Greene, Wiggins, Black or Mason, Frankamp, Selden, Wiggins, Traylor if we were going to press. Notice that Perry Ellis is conspicuously absent from both of those lineups. He’s one of our best five overall players, but since he struggles to score over size, he wasn’t one of our best five situationally. That means you either spread the floor with shooters around Wiggins (first lineup) or just put all sorts of athletes on the floor to press in the second lineup (keeping Frankamp because it was clear he was hot).
That was the adjustment. I can’t guarantee it would have worked, but it was there.
