Answered Questions After IU
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Never seen a Coach Self team get beat so badly on the boards. I worry this becomes the Frank show. The Frank show is great, but it only stars one person…Frank.
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R-E-L-A-X! This is why so many teams including Kansas most years play easy games to start the season out. This was a tough game right out the gate. We lost to a team that was shooting lights out from three, nearly 50%. They got on the glass out rebounding us by 11. We have heart. We fought back and we could have just as easily lost this game as won it. All this talk about the season? It hasn’t even started for the majority of teams that played “creampuff” games. We got a nice dose of reality. We need to get on the glass and have some of the “Mr. Big Nuts” attitude when taking 3’s that we had last season. It’s hard to complain about the glass when we left a 7 foot 280 player on the bench for most of the game. We have highly touted freshmen, we need to let them get their feet wet in November, so that they will be ready come March and April. One of the key plays for Indiana was a freshman knocking down a 3 pointer during overtime. We have to start letting it loose and stop playing not to loose. We are extremely talented and on the bright side at least we know what we have to work on. It is definitely fixable.
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@KansasComet absolutely
Couldn’t agree more. Couldn’t have said it better.
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With 16.5 seconds in overtime and KU behind 99-97, this was the KU lineup on the court.
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@wrwlumpy VERY good point. I don’t recall EVER seeing such a lineup in any game before when there is so much on the line. Have you? I thought there would be a lot of fouls but our 3 best players not being there in OT is not what we can afford ever again.
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@RockChalkinTexas said:
@wrwlumpy VERY good point. I don’t recall EVER seeing such a lineup in any game before when there is so much on the line. Have you? I thought there would be a lot of fouls but our 3 best players not being there in OT is not what we can afford ever again.
Don’t know who it will be but Self needs to trust either Lightfoot or Coleby. Can’t play a bunch of 4 guard ball when you only have 5 eligible scholarship guards and NOT have foul trouble.
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On the bright side Josh and Doke are gonna play a lot, should shut up the Self doesn’t play FR idiocy.
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KU guards defended the 3 from the paint, running at the open shooter with an arm extended in vain. The Indiana guards played defense outside the three point line all night, seldom giving our guard with the ball an open 3. Frank and Devonte are under the defensive rim most of the time instead of defending on the perimeter. Frank tied for most rebounds with Landon at 7. Devonte had 4 rebounds. With our guards playing defense with their heels in the paint, we are going to see a lot of uncontested 3’s shot against us.
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Disappointing loss. No question. Certainly had chances to win the game. The rebounding is the biggest thing that sticks out for me… we will have to have a vast improvement in that area. Fortunately, there’s alot of time to do that and I think Self will put the pieces together in a way that gives the best chance to do so. How tough is Frank though… 30 pts and 7 rebs. Add 9 assists. But I say as I did last season. If Mason is going to be our best rebounder were gonna struggle. Bigs have to step up
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Rebounding was the big difference, but i also think we get smoked if they dont turn it over 18 times to help offfset the rebounds. One thing to think about is the 2001-02 hawks started 0-2 on the season in Maui losing to ball state and Houston. They went on to be B12 champs and make the FF.
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A lot of good points from all Yes I will admit it sucked we got bear, of course if it were up to me we would NEVER lose, that’s how spoiled I am. After it had sit in for awhile and again this morning I was trying to think why would I be mad, ticked off? Like I said to the wife multiple times last night during the game, this game is more like a game you would see being played in March - - -Not NOVEMBER. - - Then thought after the game they was interviewing Coach Crean and the 1st thing he said was - – That was A MARCH GAME.
There were a couple of things that I thought stuck out for the reasons of being beat & I thought myself and one, has been mentioned here & the other was brought up last night during the game. The main one I thought was the Rebounding I kept saying we are getting our ass pounded on the boards, second they brought up last night and that was our transition defense, getting beat back down the floor.
But like Kansas Com said we have to Relax, no need to panic these are things that can and am sure will be fixed. Jaybate brought up good points, & did some comparsing between Wayne and josh, saying Wayne could of had the possibility of hanging 30 on Indiana, which yes he could of BUT- - -the question is, could Wayne of hung 30 on Indiana as a Freshman? we don’t know that, certainly as a Junior yes he could but he developed more as a scoring throughout and like said he was a yo-yo never know.
Like was also said we could of just play a total butt load full of cream puffs – but as we all know that’s not how it is done here at Ku - -Hell Texas barely bear Incarnate World - -think they won by 5, Incarnate world for gosh sakes. Like I said ya it sucks but overall like I thought and the Indiana Coach said was that was a MARCH game., Now it’s going to be extremely tough Tuesday against Duke, kind of surprised we were going to fly straight to New York kind of worried how we will do then also. - – the long flight – -jet lag, the hard game an over time game against Indiana how our legs will be.- - -BUT we going to be fine, it’s the first game - -let the season roll - - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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@jaybate-1.0 How did the new rule changes affect us last night? I think its obvious they did, 32 fouls for both teams, but how did that affect KU and how will they adapt?
I think once they tighten up that and the rebounding, they should start winning games like this.
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That quintet had the smallest average leg diameter of any KU team ever!
THE MONOFILAMENT MEN !
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I’m disappointed. No other way around it honestly.
I said after the exhibition games that Indiana & Duke were more prepared after watching them and it showed last night in the fundamentals. Some were quick to say how you can take anything from exhibition games but you can. Right now KU is a good team, and far from a great team… Maybe that’s exactly where they need to be so that this team doesn’t peak too soon, but the bigger picture is this team still should have found a way to win and it didn’t.
I’m not ready to overreact because we played a top 15 team in the first game. That isn’t how most years start but it was a great eye opener. This helps the team going into Tuesday. Whatever they can correct between now and then will remain to be seen.
We did see plenty of positives besides the obvious holes right now. We know Frank Mason is going to lay it all on the line for his team and I think as this group grows more comfortable with each other that they will join him. Right now Frank gets it, everyone else has to reach his level of play for this team to get where they want. I’ve been very disappointed in Devonte Graham right now. As a leader and upperclassmen he’s not where I thought he would be.
What we do know already is that the margin for error with this group is very low. Until everyone gets on the same page off-nights from any of the top 7 will be felt in the final score. Jackson certainly didn’t make a good first impression on the fan-base. He was non-existent besides 3-4 plays.
Things will get better, the season is a gauntlet. We’ll learn from this loss
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It’s hard to say, because Self appears to be concealing a lot of injuries.
We can’t really know how much of Lucas’ “sore foot” was the problem and how much it was rules changes and catching IU on a hot night.
We know Frank and Devonte never both used to foul out, so maybe it was rules. But it sure looked like Devonte grabbed his hamstring middle of the game and was never the same after.
Is this really Bragg at this weight under these rules, or does he have a hand injury that is keeping him from shooting his jumper?
Beyond injury, there is the heavy reliance on JJ, who hasn’t figured out team defense and how to help one and two passes away and the necessity of playing Doke who struggles with hedge decisions.
The logical take away is that what we saw was a good team caught up in the interplay of rule changes, injuries and new players that haven’t figured out how to play team defense without breakdowns creating easy baskets.
Taken all together, KU HAS TO BE PRETTY GOOD TO TAKE ANOTHER GOOD TEAM TO A LAST SECOND IN OVERTIME WITH ALL THE INTERACTING PROBLEMS I HAVE MENTIONED.
If the injuries are few and shorter duration than appears, they will tighten up team defense shortly, get the hang of new rules, shoot better, and beat a team like IU, if Self can find away to teach them to rebound.
But stress reactions and hamstrings are long lasting injuries and we can’t be sure who else is in trouble healthwise.
This team has one more problem: no bad strong man that throws fear in the opponents’ minds.
We learned last night that Josh is a tough nut, but he just isn’t strong enough and intimidating enough to enforce.
Landon isn’t either–not yet.
Not against D1 muscle ballers.
Put it this way: Bob Huggins now believes he can intimidate his way to a B12 title.
KU is a very athletic and talented team that can score.
But right now it faces the lot of a 98 pound weakling at muscle beach, unless Lucas/Doke/Coleby man-up and muscle.
Josh Jackson will intimidate the team’s with little talent and no muscle. He will be far more aggressive than most guys his size. But by the end of a game of Big 10 bang Ball, he was just another skinny guy with hops.
Self has a problem.
How do you become a team of little tigers? How do little men rebound with big men–with last year’s brawny Nova guys say?
Wooden figured it out in 1963.
He ran, and pressed, drove it, shot over it with one great shot, and fought for rebounding position at all costs. In short he tried to fatigue every big opponent. He tried to make cowards of them with fatigue.
KU has the right talent to play this way if it can find its mad 6-5 Freddie Slaughter at the post, or get its big men healthy and stay big and mean.
KU will probably look much better against Duke, because Duke is NOT big and brawny like IU.
But unless KU gets healthy and gets in better running condition, or stays big inside, any good Big 10 team will likely clock us.
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Dos mas cosas…
Be ready for 0-2 tonight if Self is concealing lots of injuries.
This team defense and rebounding thing will take some time to fix.
And it appears we haven’t got a single explosive defender on this team…no Jam Tray…blocking, even a little, is NOT us.
Self defense has always hinged on great team defense that disrupts with steals or blocks. Last year’s team disrupted less than usual, but it had players that did occasionally explode out of position and disrupt.
No sign of that last night. None!
Self is going to have to do another incredible coaching job this season.
He is going to have to innovate again.
The apparent recruiting embargo requires it yet again.
And hope he catches a break on injuries.
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Kansas wins 7/10 times vs IU. Ku wouldn’t should so cold from 3 & IU wouldn’t shoot so hot. That was the difference in the game.
What is particularly concerning is Kansas’ inability to stop penetration and giving up offensive rebounds. We’ve seen it in both exhibitions and last night. Let’s hope Doke comes along as a fantastic shot blocker so the D doesn’t have to collapse so much leaving the wide open perimeter shots.
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Last night showed the fear that I have with this team. Josh Jackson is a great player, but as an off ball player, he must have quality touches in order to be effective.
Jackson, by my count, had two quality touches in the second half and OT. A quality touch is one where you catch the ball in an attacking position. Once he was fouled on the arm, the other time he passed. That’s it.
Josh is not a shooter. Spotting him up on the corner or on the wing is useless because he is easy to defend from there.
This team needs to run. Every player on this roster other than maybe Lucas is better in the open floor. Svi, Vick, Udoka, Josh, Frank, Devonte, Carlton, Mitch, all of them will be better with the pace up. Self needs to unbridle his horses and let them run.
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Unless we get LL 2.0 like we did the last part of last year, or Dok develops quickly, sweet 16 at best. LL’s injury is concerning. It’s obviously affecting his play, and we’re getting beaten up inside as a result.
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@chriz Pretty obvious Lucas is struggling with his foot issue. That was not last year’s Lucas.
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@justanotherfan Josh is young and he just got his first lesson. Never ever under any circumstances tell the media that you are trying to go undefeated. It will backfire more times than not. Better now than game 40 though.
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I agree, but here is the problem facing both of us.
Self and Crean had them running and fouling.
It was a 103-99 game!
Take away the OT and it was STILL a high trip count. Part of that was fouling and part of it was the hurry up of both offenses. But really, IU fouled us 12 fewer times, so our high scoring definitely stemmed from hurry up.
So the problem is not running, it is the way KU gets shots for Josh on the run, and the terrible team defense Josh (and some others) play on the run.
Let’s hope Josh only takes a few games to get comfy with the speed and physicality of D1 and learns off-ball help defence.
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Copy and paste.
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@KansasComet There was nothing wrong with Josh saying KU was trying to undefeated. He didn’t predict KU would go undefeated, just that it was a goal and it should be a goal of every KU every year because there are very few games KU is more than a toss up to lose.
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@KansasComet Yeah, probly shouldnt have mentioned going undefeated. BUT he did say it with much less bravado than ohh say those kids from Kentucky a couple years ago.
@jaybate-1.0 Thanks for the explanation about the rules and such. I trust Bill Self. I do. We may take another lump or two heading into the conference but he will have this team ready. He needs to talk to Hoiberg again if possible. Hell, taking some notes on how Golden State plays wouldnt go amiss either. Granted we dont have talent like KD or the Splash bros.
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Self is at his best, when his most cherished “who we are” habits are denied him. He resists furiously, but when he has to change he changes in brilliantly unexpected ways. I call them hat rabbits.
Let’s see if he’s got another in the top hat!
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@jaybate-1.0 He absolutely does. The guy is amazing at tweaking his roster, motivating his guys, bringing out their best. We only have to look back at every single one of his seasons here at KU as a reminder.
I just read Jesse’s post game article and Matt Tait’s post game writes as well. I gotta say I like what I read.
Yah, this loss stung bcuz KU could have won the game had a couple calls gone our way…the 3pointer that wasnt a 3 pointer, and the IU kid being out of bounds that got missed too. And we would have won had Frank not missed that single free throw.
But I take this loss as a better opportunity for Coach Self to work his magic with our boys, especially our Freshies and Sophs.
Lastly, Im just glad College basketball is back again.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 Absolutely nothing wrong with saying it. I couldn’t agree more. The lesson is that it is easier said than done. Can we agree on that my friend?
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@Lulufulu Yes, in that case shirts were printed up and the world was theirs. The night that it happened to them was awful for them. The morning after appeared to be even worse from my vantage point. I was in Indianapolis that weekend. Part of me wanted to laugh. The other part of me already had!
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KU bigs need to gain chemistry, heal a foot, and play with a bit-o-not-soft nastiness. Play like Izzo’s bigs. Bragg needs a coming out party. His 12 pts were fairly quiet, imagine if he has a big game, suddenly we are off his back.
By playing 4 guards, the ONLY thing we are masking is our poor post play. But just how much chemistry do our 4g-lineups actually have. I see that 4G lineup as an infant experiment. Think about it: we’ve played a 4G lineup for exactly 3 games, and not the entire games…and to think we could beat a top11 team with it? Right out of the gate? I dont think so. Only Frank kept us in it, or else IU beats us, no OT needed.
Spin it the other way: If it wasnt for Frank, we get a 15-20pt loss at a neutral site.
Spin it the Self way: He put the 5 odd-fellow lineup pictured above simply to allow the “L” to happen, and let this team taste defeat, and all the focus and intensity that will allow. And if Duke beats us, and we are 0-2, you might go ahead and pencil us in to the F4, as it could be that motivating, with a true test looming Jan.28 (KY).
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You don’t replace 2 three year starters in Bill Self’s system with a freshman and a seldom used Soph. and expect results the first game. Especially against a quality opponent in the first game. A few missed calls (shot clock violation etc.) a few missed plays by our guys and they lose. No margin for error early, but this is what we all wanted! This is Josh starting and playing thru mediocrity unlike Oubre. This is Josh getting to learn and the team a chance to take it’s lumps and gel.
This is how you prepare for April.
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You are both onto some things.
Self had to work on this 4 guard thing sometime, because:
a.) we will play small teams and need to be able to go small, because of bigs that may not be able to hedge to 20 feet;
b.) our bigs are injured and other than Lucas in embryonic stages;
c.) Self wants to create video of Josh showing up everywhere ASAP to force opposing coaches to prepare; and
d.) until (if) Colelby can play, KU doesn’t have enough developed bigs to go big and stay big for 40 minutes, so KU has to learn to play small regardless.
He is also getting on with all the above from the start, because this bunch minimizes TOs and fouling while learning new rules.
Notice KU “only” had 38 fouls compared to IU’s 50.
Self guessed right and almost stole one from Crean, who has probably the best big man in the country in Bryant.
Healing from injuries after Duke is paramount.
But Duke is another “play through” game.
P.S.: Bragg, like all. bigs, always wanted to be a stretch 4 and his harried unsettled play explains why there aren’t many doing it successfully: it is two positions at the same time. Bragg will get it over time. For now it is: be careful what you wish for.
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I was really surprised we struggled so much. Devonte and LL both had subpar games. Our rebounding was terrible …worst i’ve ever seen from a Self team. We are far behind where i felt we’d be in every possible way, shape, and form. That said, there’s going to be a switch that is going to go off at some time in the future. And this team will be transformed - don’t know if it takes the next game, maybe it takes 20 games … but this will be a great team. Just don’t know when.
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Unreported injuries + heavy reliance on OAD early = what we saw
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@jaybate-1.0 I’d like to see Bragg in a point-forward position due to his vision and passing ability, but his handles won’t allow it. I’d love to kill small teams with size. Svi and Jackson are as tall as 2/3 the post players out there.
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There are many killer app strategies and tactics waiting for players with the right skill sets.
Bragg might get there next year, but agree he is not there now.
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Coach Self has been open about injuries, he has indicated that Devonte is having issues with cramping, Coleby is not fully recovered, just to name a couple. I don’t understand where the talk that he is hiding injuries comes from, it certainly questions Coach Self honesty.
I posted this on another thread but seem more applicable here.
At this point KU is a work in progress. All the pieces are there but they are not fully operational yet. Positioning for rebounds and rebounding in general needs work. No question it is hard to stop a team that is in the zone from the 3, like Indiana was, but there has to be a contingency plan anyway.
The guards are fine but Devonte does not seem to be 100% and the cramping issue apparently has not been resolved. This team will go as far as Mason’s legs take it.
The referring sucked and, from my biased perception, it looked like the critical bad calls went against KU. I cannot recall when is the last time 4 starters fouled out for KU. I suspect we will be seeing more Lightfoot in the future; he was in a very short time but was solid and could give meaningful rest time to the players we need on the court at crunch time.
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@JayHawkFanToo Coach Self hasnt always been forthcoming about player injuries. Its reasonable to assume that there may be some info that we arent getting in regards to player health.
But, I agree with you on the calls, the refereeing. There were two very bad calls that absolutely affected the outcome. 1. the trey that was a shot clock violation. 2. the out of bounds guy getting that rebound.
But, but, KU got out rebounded by 11 or 12. Its not like we are a small team. Bragg, Lucas, Udoka, all very big guys, should be perfectly capable of boxing out and grabbing boards!! Its maddening! I cant even imagine what its like for Coach.
KUs lack of ability to rebound defensively absolutely shook the game up too.
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The problem that I saw with the 4 guard offense is that Self just ran the same offense through it. What exactly is that supposed to do? So you look to get your best players on the floor and run the same structured offense that only works with the right lineup. We plugged guards in all game and saw the results of that.
I know its game 1 but if Self is going to Change, you actually have to Change the offense your running to get the results you want from it.
It was game 1, again, I have to remind myself of this. So much time to make things work. Devonte had a bad shooting game and didn’t impact the game at all. Same with Jackson and we were more then 1 pathetic officiating call (missed shot clock violation & in OT player was out of bounds and scored on resulting possession) from winning or a made FT (Mason). Things will get better but we might be 0-2 before we start seeing it
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I agree. As I mentioned in my post rebounding is a big issue and it has nothing to do with size, which KU has. It has to do with not boxing out and getting in position to rebound. If you looked under the KU basket after a IU miss, it was like Grand Central Station with 3 or 4 IU players that had no business being there and should have been boxed out. I am sure Coach Self will be working on that.
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Vick and Jackson. Assuming Svi and Bragg have shown us what they can do, it’s all about the development of our other guys. With Jackson, he didn’t contribute much either in driving to the basket or producing steals. I’m left wondering what his value is and whether I’m going to have to eat my words about him affecting the game more than Wiggins. Vick needs to produce steals, blocks and shutdown defense. Period. If neither of these things happen, we will have to play at our absolute peak this year to go anywhere in March.
People said we played “bad”. We played about as “bad” as Indiana. They simply look more talented to me, and there is rumor that this year has more incoming talent than last. So either Indiana is a top 5 squad, or we have to lower our expectations.
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@JayHawkFanToo exactly. I don’t know what is so complicated about blocking out. We can’t do much when a team is hitting threes with a hand right in their face, but rebounding is completely under the defense’s control.
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@betterfireE to me, it doesn’t look like certain guys are maximizing their potential. Jackson is settling for shots and I personally think, contrary to what Jaybate thinks, that his one on one defense is not the best, Carlton is not putting in enough mental effort to rebound, and Devonte has been fooling around ever since the exhibitions started. I know Devonte has been dealing with cramps, but he needs to tighten things up and stop having crazy drives. Frank and Svi have played well. Landon has played better than what others are giving him credit for, though his rebounding numbers could be higher.
In regards to Indiana, things always look better when shots go in. They made 15 threes and shot 50%, with several of those being contested and a hand in their face. They are a good shooting team, but they won’t have many games where they shoot that well.
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Talk of possibly under- and un- reported injuries comes from:
–DG grabbing an unreported hamstring, in addition to whatever cramping may have been reported;
–saying Lucas has just a “sore foot” despite wearing a boot off the floor and some kind of apparatus in the last game that makes his shoe bulge while he favors that side and underperforms for 3 straight games including two D-II teams;
–Bragg getting few rebounds in three games and taking few jump shots and getting few dunks or blocks suggesting an unreported injury is keeping him from getting up;
–the best recruit in the country going 3-11 and only occasionally being able to get up; and
–Coleby going from a few minutes vs. D-II team’s to no minutes vs a big IU team we got in foul trouble against and were facing with a gimpy Lucas and so could have used at least the same few minutes Coleby gave previously.
I didn’t watch Vick, so not sure on him.
Regardless, when Tyler starts playing in a close game one wonders about injuries to other perimeter guys.
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Copy and paste.
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One of the problems starting an OAD early is he can only learn so much of the offense and defense schemes.
Self looked like he was keeping it a 10 page playbook and Josh was struggling with that!
The 4-1 looked pretty good last season when a lot of guys could make treys.
But I agree. I’m not sure how the 4-1 is supposed to work with Josh on a wing where he’s not a threat. It’s like moving Kevin Young outside.
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@Lulufulu when a player does not play well, you can’t always assume “he’s injured”. Sometimes, believe it or not, guys don’t play well.
The rebounding is frustrating - I don’t believe for a minute that the coaches have not told them how to block out, assuming they didn’t know. Personally, it’s all about “want to”.
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@HawkChamp said:
. In regards to Indiana, things always look better when shots go in. They made 15 threes and shot 50%, with several of those being contested and a hand in their face. They are a good shooting team, but they won’t have many games where they shoot that well.
I disagree…they won’t always shoot that well…but they will have quite a few games where they shoot that well…JMO
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@betterfireE You may have valid points…but it is only one game. Jackson will contribute a lot…more than Wiggins? Remains to be seen. No question…Indiana is a good team. The game could have gone either way. My sense is that they played more to their potential than we did…but who really knows. I always find it interesting…would our rhetoric be significantly different if a few things had gone our way and we ended up winning the game?
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But Josh can make shots outside, he just has to be smart about it. Releford was not a shooter but became efficient at picking his spots. Josh wasn’t aggressive in this game didn’t even attempt to drive the hoop and missed a gimme layup he could have dunked. I expected different from this one but his first impression leaves you thinking this is just another OAD that isn’t all that again. I hope this was an eye opener for him.
Self has to evolve this offense and let it shoot quick shots and force tempo. We built leads when they played fast. This doesn’t look like a grind it out squad
