PG options
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I’ve listed a couple of reads on Graham. The second being more current… and he has now been released and it appears Kansas and Florida are the biggest fish chasing Graham.
http://hoopdreamsmag.com/?p=8441
In the second read there is even mention that Tharpe could be recruited over in his senior year. Do you think?
Self puts his own tail on the line if he goes another year with Tharpe and he duds out again in March. I don’t see it happening. I sense a replacement coming. If this had been the only time Self had put his own neck out for a PG then I could see him chance it with Tharpe… but we’ve been down this road before… 2013!
Funny, in the second article the journalist made a big mistake… saying Jeff Capel wouldn’t let Graham out of his LOI at App State. It was his brother, Jason, who coached the Mountaineers. I had to look that one up, because we probably would already have signed Graham if Jeff was their coach because Graham has wanted out of his LOI for quite some time. I’m pretty sure Self has some strings with Jeff Capel… and he is now a Dukey trying to snag the vacancy when Coach K leaves.
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Then there is this:
"Among those to reach out to the Class of 2014’s best available point guard are Boston College, Cincinnati, Creighton, Florida, Florida St, George Mason, Georgia Tech, Kansas, Missouri, Nebraska, Providence, South Florida, Virginia, Virginia Tech and Xavier.
Coaches from most of those schools plan to fly to New Hampshire to visit Graham at Brewster Academy either Thursday, Friday or Sunday. Brewster coach Jason Smith said he expects Graham to narrow his list early next week once he has a chance to visit with all those coaches."
I’m betting that Self is putting on a full court press for this kid. The timing is just right to pinch him in while still going for Turner, and having time to let someone go off our roster (if it isn’t already a done deal).
Self is the best recruiter in the country after March Madness. Easily.
We haven’t always won every recruit… but Self is dangerous when he really wants a player and it’s crunch time. I can see this happening.
This time, Self has Norm Roberts by his side at Brewster.
Imagine landing Graham and Turner! I’m pretty sure we would be considered to have the #1 recruiting class coming in next year.
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Read Ralster’s take on the combo guards and how Self’s system seems to work best with two combo guards rather than the conventional PG-SG combination. Excellent analysis.
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@drgnslayr “The Jayhawks struggled this past season in part because of shaky point guard play, but it seems like a stretch that Graham would be able to unseat Naadir Tharpe in his senior season. Graham could be groomed as the point guard in waiting for the Jayhawks, though there’s always the worry that Bill Self could recruit over him.”
This is nuts to write. How could any educated and knowledgeable writer say anything remotely like this from the read? Other competing schools will use Tharpe as a deterent. Self has got to ‘promise’ this kid he will get some meaningful mins regardless. Graham has to understand KU pg is wide open for the taking. His chances are better than any other, even ‘senior’ pg Tharpe. This writer has no clue how desperate KU is for a pg. Right now, my 6 yr old son can play pg for KU and possibly start. He can handle the ball and makes better decisions than Tharpe. He can shoot as well comparatively. If anything, I’d say Graham would compete with soph pg Frank Mason. That statement is a bit more believeable and this could be used too against KU on the recruiting trail. It’s detrimental that KU’s strengths on the court can become their weaknesses off the court, particularly recruiting.
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“Snacks” might do the heavy lifting and lay the ground work during recruiting, but kids come to KU because of Coach Self first and foremost and Snacks is a distant second. If Snacks would be recruiting for MU/Haith, how many quality players do you think he would get?
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@JayHawkFanToo All due respect Fan, but if not for Snacks, we didn’t have a chance with Alex. Snacks changed KU’s chances with Alex. However, there is an unfair Chicago connection between the two. NO, you misunderstood my statement. I think Snacks communicates and relates to players better than most. Yes, Self is a huge attraction for players and even parents, but Snacks seems to have a way with these recruits that gives Self an even better chance. Snacks seems to be a players coach and then once they commit, they learn how Self is a player’s coach. So, Snacks, Townsend, and Roberts ropes them and Self pulls them into the KU corral. Or you can even say the reverse is true. Self ropes them, and the assitants pull them into KU.
Haith? WTH does Haith have to do with anything? Haith, is no where near Self. But your point is well taken too. You do have to ask, why did Self take Snacks? Just for fun? Experience? Mentoring? All the above? He could’ve taken Roberts or Townsend, In fact, the East coast is Roberts’ area of recruiting. I think there was a pretty good reason why Self took Snacks in particular.
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@wissoxfan83 I don’t know if anyone else has said it but, Na also came up clutch in the last few mins of the OU game to clinch a share of the title. He backed up his solid defensive effort against UT two days earlier with that stellar closeout performance against OU
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As I indicated before, Snacks might have the initial contacts and lay the original ground work but kids come to KU because of Coach Self and the KU tradition. Snacks might start the process but Self is the “Closer.” I can see why bigs in the past came to KU because of Self “AND” Manning, who had reputation with bigs. However, and to the best of my knowledge, Snacks is not really known, or at least not yet, for his coaching skills; his main talent right now is his connections, particularly in the Chicago area.
You did not answer my question, if Snacks is recruiting for MU and Frank Haith, do you think they get Alexander? Yes, It is possible but highly, highly unlikely.
By the way, I believe Slayer mentioned that Coach Self has Roberts with him at Brewster and not Snacks.
We haven’t always won every recruit… but Self is dangerous when he really wants a player and it’s crunch time. I can see this happening.
This time, Self has Norm Roberts by his side at Brewster."
Maybe you both can site a source?
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Read Ralster’s take on the combo guards and how Self’s system seems to work best with two combo guards rather than the conventional PG-SG combination. Excellent analysis.
I’ve read it and agree with his overall analysis. But, it actually proves my initial point about pgs. He’s right, it’s changed and his detailed analysis about each player is perfect. But, you’re not going to find those kids any longer either. I thought the opposite when faced with his post. I kept thinking, “Why can’t we find some of the skills of the past players?” It was a great recipe. The kids today can’t play within that system. They are too limited. Kids today, since 2008, want that ideal position. They want to focus on being a 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. There aren’t too many that can “combo” today very well. Self tries to “combo” too much and it backfires.
Funny, because all ralsters examples are perfect examples of “backfired” position failures. Collins is the lone exception, we’ll never get another Sherron Collins combo guard. But, TT and EJ were both 2 guards, not combo guards. I think based on what I see from other programs, ie. UConn, UF, UK, Zona, and a few other key teams, your true 1s, 2s, 3s, 4s, and 5s thrive.
NOW, I don’t disagree with the idea at all, IF the player can make the transition to “combo,” then great, do it. But, I don’t see players making that HCBS transition to combo, particularly 1 and 2s today. I’ll never forget Mario Little and how Self tried to force him into the 3/4 to post him, but Little never really worked well at the 4. He was a true 3. But we had others that worked in the 4 much better than Little. I do think you can combo your 4 and 5s well. Your 3 is a bit more specialized, but possible. I think what ralster fails to remember, it’s not Self’s plan that is necessarily wrong, but the ability of the player that limits the idea. Again, Collins, Chalmers, RussRob, and others were rare talents that just worked out for Self.
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@ralster Excellent analysis. Very enjoyable read.
“In summary: Combo guard, by definition, implies “competence” in ball-handling as well as scoring. This type of player is a more complete player.”
Ok, then. I do think we would all agree by that summary that the term “combo-guard” is way overused. Let’s go with your definition. It is more exclusive than what is the common usage (i.e., the high level ball handling).
One thing by observation then – has Self ever had a pure point guard here other than Miles (who he inherited)? Heck, Russell Robinson was a 2 guard coming in. It seems that every guard has been called a combo guard – even Tharpe – particularly when he fails.
Something like, “Well, he’s never really played point guard. He’s learning the position.”
How many times have we heard that?
So the idea here is NOT to have a prototypical point guard? The drive and dish guy. The creator.
I will respectfully disagree here with the conclusion (while still enjoying the astute analysis).
Self’s system, in my opinion, desperately needs a pure point guard. @jaybate 's “P3”. But let’s not get too caught up in the detail. Bobby Hurley was a pure point guard, but he scored. Best college point guard in recent times, in my opinion. We’re just talking a guy that will look to pass first, has the developed skill to create for others, has the ability to handle under duress, can get to the rack and finish, and can hit the three at a reasonable rate.
I saw Mason on an upward trajectory – better three point shooting near the end of the season (ended the same as Selden), was creating more on drives, and was more in control. Heck, he demonstrated more “learning” than Tyshawn Taylor did in three seasons.
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My argument is simple. Look at the other programs. The successful coaches let their players play THEIR positions. Again, I don’t disagree with having “combo” anything, if it works. But to force a player who is not going to work in the combo position, is dangerous. KU has faced this all too much. Also, I don’t see other coaches pushing their 1s and 2s into “combo” situations. I just think it is almost like taking a great hitter, expecting him to switch hit, and just not being able to make the switch. In other words, he may hit 300-400 as his natural hitting preference and then 200-300 as a switch hitter. Leave players alone and let them play or recruit them at their natural positions. Again, all due respect, but just not workinng well right now.
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@wissoxfan83 I don’t know if anyone else has said it but, Na also came up clutch in the last few mins of the OU game to clinch a share of the title. He backed up his solid defensive effort against UT two days earlier with that stellar closeout performance against OU
I know wissox, I know…believe me. I for one stayed on the Tharpe wagon a long time. He would have a great game and then disappear. I waited and gave him passes up to now. I just don’t think he’s able to handle the on and off court pressure and expectations. I hope to be wrong, but his last little fiasco pretty much sealed his fate. If he stays, it will be by the good graces of HCBS, but he has really hurt himself in so many ways.
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“Maybe you both can site a source?”
I have no source except the knowledge that Roberts is the best recruiter Self has, and he’s an east coaster who does his best work out east.
I could be wrong on that… but why wouldn’t he involve Roberts on a full court press for a recruit?
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“I know wissox, I know…believe me. I for one stayed on the Tharpe wagon a long time. He would have a great game and then disappear. I waited and gave him passes up to now. I just don’t think he’s able to handle the on and off court pressure and expectations. I hope to be wrong, but his last little fiasco pretty much sealed his fate. If he stays, it will be by the good graces of HCBS, but he has really hurt himself in so many ways.”
I think Tharpe has really put Self in a bind. Self has a reputation as being a “player’s coach”… meaning… he is willing to put his own neck out there for his players, far beyond what most coaches will do. He’s done it for several players… EJ coming to mind recently.
But it is starting to wear on the Jayhawk Nation. There will be a major major explosion in our fan base if he stays with Naadir this coming year… another year filled with big hopes and expectations after another blazing recruiting year, only to end with Tharpe falling out again.
I don’t think Tharpe helped himself with his selfie. That was a real act of defiance not only to Self, but to all Jayhawk fans. It definitely pissed me off. Okay… he didn’t post it, but he took the friggin’ photo! He should have known better. When you put his horrible late season play together with his act of defiance, it is too much for Jayhawk fans to weather.
Self would like to see a happy ending for Tharpe… meaning… a good senior year with positive outcome. But is he willing to stick his neck out for him (again)? The stakes keep growing with each time he does this and it doesn’t pan out.
And if Tharpe goes to the bench for a freshman, does he want to stay for his senior year? I don’t know… but maybe it is in Tharpe’s best interest to transfer… even as a senior! Sit a year, work on his game and getting his s#it together. Then he can sell the new, improved Tharpe to some school somewhere. I doubt this happens… mostly because Tharpe has proven he doesn’t step up to take charge of his life.
D1 ball is a one shot deal… either you do well and leave with momentum… or you start thinking of another occupation after D1, like being an auto mechanic or furniture salesman.
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First off, I look at Newman and I love his abilities. Great bounce, nice explosion, can get shots for himself and others.
The PG position has changed. This isn’t 1974, where the PG walked the ball up the floor and passed it to the wing or into the post. This is the era where the PG pushes the ball, penetrates the defense and can either score, dump it to a big or kick it out for a three. UConn has won 2 titles in the last four years with a PG that could do just that. Louisville won a title last year with two guys doing that. UNC won the 2009 title with a PG doing that. That’s 4 of the last six titles centered around a slash and kick style system.
Graham could be a nice addition, and he won’t be an OAD. The one thing I am concerned about is his lack of vertical explosion. He’s a blur with the ball and has great moves on the floor. However, for a slasher, he doesn’t get ideal explosion. There’s a notable difference between him and Newman when it comes to getting off the floor. Obviously, Newman is the ideal, but there’s something to be said for that level of athleticism.
Looking at Watson, the problem would be that he would have to sit out, and even then, how substantial an upgrade is he from what we currently have. Watch him and tell me that you couldn’t see Frank Mason being that type of player at a non major D1 school. If we are going to get someone, it needs to be an upgrade.
As for Phillip, I can’t find any video of him, but I know that Independence has done a good job of producing some good transfer talent throughout the years. He could be an interesting find, especially since he would add some size.
The most interesting thing about all of this is what it means for Naadir and either Mason or Frankamp. If Self adds a PG, particularly if its either Graham or Phillip, that probably means Tharpe is done at KU. There’s also the possibility that if that happens either Mason or Frankamp may transfer due to the numbers/position crunch caused by an additional PG on the roster.
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“Graham could be a nice addition, and he won’t be an OAD. The one thing I am concerned about is his lack of vertical explosion. He’s a blur with the ball and has great moves on the floor.”
I’d rather have a point who is explosive horizontally, then vertically. You mention UCONN… Napier wasn’t a vertical leaper.
The smart little guys use quickness and the skill of creating scoring space to score on bigger players… not jumping over them. EJ was a leaper, but his only scoring at the rim were the blind alley-oops.
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Ok. I’m confused.
To borrow the terminology from HEM, how is no-rank Graham going to be the answer NEXT year, ahead of the options we already have?
If this was Tyus Jones, then I get it. But Graham won’t contribute for atleast a couple of year. By then, I’m hoping we can land an Elite PG.
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Graham was a no-rank because he was already signed with App State, and then he stuck another year at Brewster and developed considerably.
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@FarSideHawk The other thing that tells you this kid is probably legit is who else is recruiting him. If it was KU and just a bunch of middling teams, then OK I would see your point. However, when you factor in that Florida is/was also recruiting him, it lends credibility to him being considerably better than a “no-rank” player.
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This is not a move where Self would be planning on this guy starting. Cannot even imagine that. It’s for depth.
@FarSideHawk brings up a good point. Why get Graham now? Very importantly, the 2015 class has just two top 50 point guards. When Tharpe graduates, we would be left then with just two ball handlers, Mason and CF. If we are going to get a lower ranked guy, why not get him now so by 2015-16 he’ll have a year under his belt?
Hmmm … where would Milton Doyle be now if he stayed?
I’m interested, though, in when the transfer news is coming. One spot open. Trying to land Graham and Turner.
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@FarSideHawk Seems like this is for security in case of injuries and the fact that we are losing Tharpe and probably Selden at the end of this year. I am sure Bill is still going to go after the top PG’s available for the next recruiting class he brings in. We are overdue to land a top shelf PG.
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Just info -
ESPN Top 60 for 2015 Point Guards:
-#23 Alonzo Trier - We’re recruiting him.
-#32 Jalen Brunson, #55 Kendall Small, and #60 Nick Noskoviak - We are not recruiting them.
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Ok, I kinda see it now. It’s slim pickings in 2015, so we’re hedging now. If we land Alonzo, someone will have to transfer again due to over crowding. Ugh!
If we are pursuing Turner and Graham at once, then I’m guessing either of the following headlines (or both) coming out soon.
White transfers and/or Naadir is off the team.
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Let;s say KU has only one schoolie left (no one transfers) and given a choice between Devonte Graham and Myles Turner, who would you pick and why?
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@JayHawkFanToo Uh … Turner. I want to really hear the logic from the guy who votes for Graham.
Could I possibly go back in time and get Jermaine Lawrence in the 2013 class, and skip Turner now?
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@JayHawkFanToo Graham. because ummm ummm his uncle said that is better than Chris Paul.
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“Let;s say KU has only one schoolie left (no one transfers) and given a choice between Devonte Graham and Myles Turner, who would you pick and why?”
I think the answer is “both” and someone transfers.
We would never pursue Graham at the expense of Turner… and we are pursuing Graham. So that can only mean one thing (if we are still in the running for Turner).
Self said a while back that we are far from done on the recruiting trail for next year… and that was before Embiid decided to leave.
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@drgnslayr I am a bit puzzled, as @icthawkfan316 said, that we have had no transfer news yet. Would have expected it by now.
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It’s not too late for transfer news. I bet we have a 50/50 of still seeing a transfer.
Even if we don’t sign another player… AW3 is nuts to waste away on our bench. That guy has starter written all over him at probably 1/3 of the D1 schools. I hope he leaves because I really like him and hate to see a kid blow his one chance.
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I didn’t even see this before:
http://www2.kusports.com/news/2014/apr/14/nh-prep-guard-graham-plans-kansas-visit/?mens_basketball
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@drgnslayr I agree … he is nuts if he stays. Two years of eligibility left, worked is a** off last off season, has hardly played, and there are five perimeter players ahead of you. I can’t even fathom a scenario where he stays.
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Just info -
ESPN Top 60 for 2015 Point Guards:
-#23 Alonzo Trier - We’re recruiting him.
-#32 Jalen Brunson, #55 Kendall Small, and #60 Nick Noskoviak - We are not recruiting them.
That info is incorrect. We have very much offered Brunson. I don’t know his level of interest, but several sources indicate that he’s holding KU paper.
@KULA It also doesn’t hurt that UConn had three guys finish the season shooting over 40% on a minimum of 120 3pt attempts. Next worse (Boatwright) was a 37% shooter from deep…
@jaybate That’s about the most fantastic analogy I’ve ever read related to any sport of any kind. Huge PHOF!
@HighEliteMajor The ‘not really a pg’ thing is a cop-out excuse and yes, an overused one. The guy that runs the short clock offense (when the ball goes back to the perimeter and the shot clock is in single digits) is the pg. The guy who brings the ball up under pressure is the pg. If that guy can’t do these things well, it just means he’s bad at his job. A taxi cab driver that get’s lost all of the time isn’t really a railroad engineer that’s getting used to being off the rails, he’s a bad cabbie.
@truehawk93 I wouldn’t sweat Turner (should know by the end of the week, anyway). I think we’ve got a great opportunity for him and he’d likely slot right into Embiid’s spot unless Alexander proved better. At Texas, there’s a bit more competition, though I could see him starting over Ibeh and Lammert and moving Holmes to the 3. At Duke, he’d play the 4. Again, not a lot of competition, but there’s also not been a lot of noise surrounding him and Duke. Plus, in the NBA, he’s going to have to develop a goto back-to-the-basket move, and I don’t see that happening as a face up 4 with Coach K. THE OSU has been signing transfer bigs, making me think Matta is out. Little OSU is losing all of its star power (and they didn’t do much with it to begin with), so I’d be genuinely surprised if he chose them. He never visited UK or AZ, but saw Phog Allen as a must see. All that makes me bullish. I don’t think it’s a sure thing, but the signs are favorable.
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Does this mean that we need more help with the bigs than the PG or is Turner, a likely one and done, that much better?
Is Devonte Graham last season’s Tarik Black, i.e. the last half way decent player left and this is why he is garnering all the attention? I understand that after the season is over, nothing much changes in the rankings, but Graham was not on any top 100 list; I saw one site that compiles the average ranking from all sources and he is the 170s, and most publications have him as a 2 or 3 star. Are we making too big of a deal for a player that normally KU would not be interested or is he a diamond in the rough and next season’s Embiid?
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I wouldn’t sweat Turner (should know by the end of the week, anyway)
@konkeyDong Turner has said he will make his decision sometime after the Jordan Brand Classic, which is this Friday 4/18. Given this, I’m not sure we’ll know this week (as that would mean he’s either going to announce after the game or the day after. Seems unlikely). Regardless, no one should expect a decision before then.
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@konkeyDong I had heard we’re out on Brunson now, meaning we decided to jump out. The Katz corner show a while back, I think. Now KU isn’t listed on ESPN. But we’ll see.
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Graham isn’t going to be this years savior at PG. He’s what almost 2 years older than most 2014 recruits and he was the 3rd best player on his Brewster team behind Copeland (going to Georgtown) and Terrell (going to Oklahoma State). Big schools are involved because he is the sole remaining talent remaining at the PG spot.
Plus he’s been a lean to NC State since Capel accused them off tampering for his services after he had a good senior season. He was a fringe top 100 kid in his original class and now is considered in the top 50 area by some after a strong season this year which saw his prep school win the championship. He should be a considerably high ranked player with almost 2 more years of maturity to the average high school senior.
I think he is checking KU out to see if NC State isn’t where he should go. NC State has Cat Barber as their starter after Lewis left for Butler. He will be a role player at either school, either Barber’s back up or fighting 3 other PG’s at Kansas who already have a year or 3 years in the program. I would prefer Self to develop what he has especially Mason and Franny as both of them provide different elements to the game.
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I’m glad to see Self on the hunt for another PG. Yes, we have Frank and Conner, both respectable players in their own right. But this is Self saying we have to start expecting more from our PG play. He should have thought that way years ago… good chance we would have a couple more NCs by now.
2013… I still can’t believe we didn’t win a NC with that team of seasoned players and one of the best shot blockers in college history.
I was very critical on Self this year, and I believe rightly so… but I’m feeling more optimism again. He’s proven before that he can adjust his strategy, and I think he is doing it again.
A big goal for next year is to have our 1 and 2 guards play with lots of energy. Be able to beat a press and double-teams… and be able to apply a press and double-team well.
Even if we recruit another guard… Frank and Conner will still be big for us next year. We should have 4 solid guards to fill the 1 and 2. We should run lots of backcourt pressure and we’ll need fresh legs for 40 minutes of basketball!
It is (finally) time we win backcourt play! We’ve dominated the post for a long time… and now we need to do both! The final piece to the puzzle on Self-ball is in sight. More important… it is within sight of Self!
I’m going to have me an awesome summer full of optimism! Not just because we have good talent coming back and good talent coming in… more because I think Self is realizing the need to have stronger play from his backcourt!
Now go get us another guard, Coach!
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@JayHawkFanToo OMG, I totally left out Kirk Hinrich! One of my absolute favorite Jayhawks…he was KU’s “Ron Baker”. Seriously great all-around player, arrived able to play D, which only helped a Roy team, and could drive, dish, defend, and dunk: 4 D’s = A+ rated KU guard. The 4 D’s are exactly why Kirk still plays in the NBA, along with his 6’3 size.
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@HighEliteMajor Good points, love this discussion on guards. Here’s another example of a ‘combo’ guard, where the BETTER descriptor is ‘complete’ guard: Ron Baker. Man, that kid can ball. He has high bball IQ, he is team-first balanced with aggression. He shoots 43% treys. He defends. He drives. He can dunk. And he runs the team when VanVleet is out with a great a:t ratio.
I think people hear “combo” guard and think, OK, jack-of-all-trades, but master of none. I go back to the competence thing: Man, this is heady stuff to be able drive, dish, assist, defend–> not everybody can do it. Deandre Kane is another example of a ball-handling complete player.
Maybe the biggest reality is not every Self recruit will attain RussRob/Chalmers/Collins level (and those 3 were on the same team!). So my suspense is watching if Self can multiple guards “competent” in the same season. I’m sure this season’s guardplay (for variety of reasons) absolutely drove Self nuts. I bet Cindy heard more red-faced cussing in pvt after KU games than a good Oklahoma girl ever wanted to hear…lol!
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This Devonte Graham kid sounds like a 3-4 year player. 6’2 guards, unranked (translate: “no hype”…), dont just bolt to the NBA after a year.
But whatever his ranking…there is a reason Bill Self and Billy Donovan are on a crusade for Graham…
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Another thought about the guard play, and this came to me after playing ball today for over 2hrs, and trying to relentlessly drive/cross/fade/pullupJ score it (because the 3s were brick-city…) --> Playing basketball IS about doing ALL the things we talked about–all the time, everytime we play this game. Why would Self be wrong to think he can teach and expect a critical level of competence in all areas being achieved? Why not? Sure, one kid may take a bit longer than another kid to grasp it (like RussRob vs. Tyshawn), but when they play steadily and smart, but also explode with athleticism, its a beautiful thing to watch.
Self just needs to keep plugging away, get his own system & product back to what he wants it to be.
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“and this came to me after playing ball today for over 2hrs…”
I’m so completely envious! Wish I could still do that!
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@ralster I think your points are spot on and the answer to your questions are that Self isn’t wrong to think he can teach and expect a level of competence in all areas. This is why we say it takes 2-3 years for a kid to learn Self’s system. But your point and Self’s success will require a kid to stay 2-3 years. If that happens, except for Tharpe, there’s a high probability the kid will achieve exactly what Self expects or wants.
We come full circle to all the other discussions. Self’s system then is not for OADs. If a kid expects to be OAD, Self’s system is not the system to consider. But, what do you tell a kid like Wiggins? Sorry kid, you’re OAD. My system isn’t for you? Also, if you really believe that about Self, then are we all willing to wait 2-3 years or 4 for that team to develop into what Self wants? Either to get bounced after waiting, working, and playing together for the last 2-3 years or just maybe the luck strikes Self once again to win another NC? I’m not sure. It’s a big dilema. Self has to decide. I think Self was a bit surprised when Wiggins announced for KU. He said a number of times after Wiggins committed they were surprised. I don’t think Self really thought KU had much of chance for an OAD like Wiggins.
Lastly, throw in yet another scenario such as Embiid. We all agree Embiid had 2-3 year project written all over him. But, he thrived too well in Self’s system and became a late OAD too. I don’t think Self really expected Embiid to be OAD at all. I think Self thought Embiid would be around at least another year.
So, I come back to my comment above. It’s all about the player or recruit. It’s not Self’s system. It’s how the recruit adapts to and allows Self’s system to grow on them. I think Selden and Ellis are going to be great examples or poster children for Self’s system. I would look ahead at Oubre and Alex too. They may go OAD, but again, Self system will serve them well if they stay at least another year. Turner will fall into the same situation too.
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@truehawk93 Good post, and actually you made a golden statement: Its all about the player, or recruit. Yep. Its up to them to buy-in to the recruiting, come, spend the time, show work ethic, be a teammate, etc. And possess the right balance of bball IQ, make players around him better, yet still show timely aggression. High athleticism definitely helps also.
I honestly think Self needs to decide just how hard he pursues the true presumed/announced OAD. See HEM’s thread today about “just say no to OADs”–I agree totally with that. The most unpredictable thing is a kid like Rush, actually staying for Yr2, then gets hurt, and comes back for Yr3. Losing Wiggins hurt because he is an uber athlete and a 110% class-act. What a defender. Losing Embiid almost hurts more, because that kid is special. An ultra-rare talent. We may not land a 7footer like him again in my lifetime! Seriously, when is the last time we had a guy like him? Cole? Wilt? And Embiid was only a half-baked or qtr-baked “product”. I almost thought the injury thing would cause BigBiid to come back, but it didnt. It didnt stop Selby from leaving either, and Josh really hurt himself with that decision. So much of it rides on these kids we bring in. No team without the right kids, doing the right things, all with the right frame of mind…and the right experience level. And after 10yrs, that means beyond frosh experience level. Which then logically, throws water on the whole OAD concept, when considered in Bill Self’s system.
The system without question will have a major impact on what the kid is able to show. Calipari has built his system around maximizing potential and on-court performance with freshman. Self’s system is different. As is Coach K’s. See Duke’s young team get bounced very quickly.
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Seriously, when is the last time we had a guy like him? Cole? Wilt?
@ralster Because JoJo is so young and raw, it will take some time before we can fairly evaluate his talent.
I never saw Wilt and Lovellette at KU; both were before my time. So I can’t compare those two big men.
But based on what I saw: Cole is not at the same level. Manning is the only player I’ve seen that Embiid compares with. I actually think Embiid looked better as a freshman than Danny, but it’s tough to compare as they were asked to do different things.
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@konkeyDong Which I guess reinforces one of my criticisms of Bill’s offense (which you asked for) — Bill doesn’t make the 3pt shot part of his offense.
Thanks.
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I look at point guards the same way I look at QBs, you should recruit one for every incoming class.
You don’t know who will materialize into your system the way you want.
You don’t know about injuries.
You don’t know who will transfer out.
It’s a position with too much importance not to have one or two capable backups. It’s a position that determines the way your team plays, fast or slow, solid D or help D. They are a leader on the floor and off, they are teachers on the court an extension of the head coach.
SO why recruit one every three years, when you should be recruiting one in every incoming class.
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@JRyman I agree with your general sentiment of the importance of the position and the importance of having one or two capable back-ups, but I don’t think the idea of recruiting a PG every year is very plausible, or at least not actually signing one every year. First of all, scholarship restrictions and needs at other positions can derail that strategy. Second, I think that the strategy would lead to bringing in a very low quality of player eventually. Say there are already two capable PGs on the team - who do you think Self is going to be able to recruit if the player sees 2 or 3 guys already in front of him? Also, as has been pointed out on this thread, there are only 4 PGs listed in the top 60 for next year’s recruiting class. We are in on one of those. For whatever reason - lack of interest by one of the parties perhaps - we are not in on the other 3. So if we miss on the one, how far down should we go in the talent pool to ensure we bring in a PG in that class?
What I can see is recruiting combo guards every year, or a combination of a combo guard one year, a guy who is solely a PG the next, etc. If you do that, you are still trying to get players in with good ball handling and floor leadership skills, but they might have to play minutes at the 2 instead of actually running the point. In this scenario, you have doubled the likelihood of minutes being available to recruits. And you are recruiting for multiple positions, which gives you added flexibility in recruiting.
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Thanks for commenting on my analogy of client/server vs. multinodal internet. At first, I just thought about it as a metaphor, but the more I think about it the more I think computer networks may actually be a good model for thinking strategically, tactically and operationally about offensive basketball.
In all networks you are looking a bit flow rates of the system. About certain subsets of the network using certain amounts of resources and other parts of the network using other amounts of resources and about varying loading.
Then there are the concepts of distributive computing and parallel processing that might be robust concepts for thought about offensive basketball.
Offensive basketball, especially the way Self plays it, is about optimally redistributing system resources as the opponent “adjusts” to what is being done; i.e., as the opponent varies available bandwidth for one player (i.e., one node) and so gives greater band width to another and so on.
I haven’t really thought this through much beyond what I am relating here, but if offensive basketball were thought about in this way different kinds of statistics might begin to be measured that better capture team’s abilities to redistribute their team resources to meet adjustments, and differing types of opponents, and so coaches might begin to think more systematically about how to make the tweaks to enable the redistributions, and might think more systematically about the kinds of skill sets a player has and how they mesh (or fail to) with other nodes (players).
I know this may sound bizarre to many, but I have a hunch that a basketball team modeled this way could then be subjected to a modified finite element analysis that would find the weak and strong dynamical links among the multimodal system that is a basketball team.
Likewise, a defensive coach could look at the same offensive statistics, especially strong and weak dynamic linkages among the nodes/players and find weak points to attack.
Imagine being able to do what I am conceptualizing here and plug in various recruits in a simulation to see which one produces more net benefit and which recruit produces less as preparation to decide which prospect to sign.
Great coaches probably do a lot of this by “feel” and heuristics developed through years of experience, just as great engineers and designers used to be able to build great cars, or trucks, or planes, before computer modeling. And the feel and heuristics are still important to engineering and design. But computerized simulations allow testing of ideas and exploration of systems to find points that can be altered to optimize the system.
I have a hunch that right now this could be done.
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[http://kckingdom.com/2014/04/12/recruiting-rumors-devonte-graham-garnering-interest-kansas-jayhawks/](link url)
I certainly hope Self and Co are all over this article and have a plan. This article is misleading and if a recruit or recruits see this, it would leave them up to speculation. Maybe there’s something to this article. Does anyone think Self is all out on Graham to take the remaining paper at KU? Or do you think Self is still all out on Turner too? If so, Self has to have a transfer in the works to be after both recruits. Self is either going after both and hoping to land both or hoping to land one of them. Or he is aiming to get both because he will have the room. I believe Self is all out on both players and has a transfer in the works, sorry for the transfer, but it’s just ncaa basketball.
And wasn’t Turner quoted at one point by saying he wanted to play with a really good pg? If so, the sly fox HCBS is giving both recruits a great deal to think about. If I were a pg, I’d kill to play with this team. If I were a big man like Turner and knew enough about Graham, I’d give him a shot at playing as my pg.
Stay tuned Jayhawk Nation because this recruiting is getting good.
I would think Turner is calling or has called the coaches on his list. I think he’s made a decision. It’s April 16 and he’s making an announcement at the JBC April 18. We’ve had some good luck with twitter announcements and MCD’s AA game announcements and even these other game announcements. Cliff was our first hat trick announcement.
