PG options
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" If Hudy can pack 15 - 20 lbs of muscle on the kid over summer, I think he is our man."
I think you are right… but it is a big “if!”
If Conner can build more fast twitch muscle… he is our guy. Big difference between fast twitch and slow twitch. He needs to become a lightning rod.
You just never know with young guys… what they can mature into. His fight is with his genes. A tough hurdle for anyone to get over. But it has been done before. Guys come back after summer and are completely different players.
Conner will become a sophomore… and Hudy gospel is that players advance the most between freshmen and sophomore years, in the summer. I hope she is right concerning Conner, and I hope the guy comes back a fast twitch beast!
I think Conner has the mind to lead. Good basketball IQ. He’ll learn to read defenses and know what to do… thinking ahead of our opponents. That is what it takes.
He needs a very specialized training schedule this summer. All of it pushing reflexive tension… what is called “burst training.” A complete focus on fast twitch development.
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@HighEliteMajor You nailed the requirement for ball-handling under extreme duress (trapping zone, etc) as being a position-defining quality. Where we shall respectfully differ, is getting hung up on the “combo” guard definition.
Combo-guard: Generically defined as a guard that can handle the ball, as well as having demonstrated consistent scoring potential. Now, as defined by Bill Self back in about 2006: “Bigger, physical guards who can handle the ball as well as score. They make us more dangerous from every position, and having more than 1 on the floor (at the “1” and “2” positions) makes us doubly dangerous”…(This is an ‘almost’ verbatim paraphrase).
There is NO defining description of a combo guard’s height-requirement, nor is there any sort of limitation any longer on saying a 2guard is “only” a shooter and “cannot handle the ball”. That just doesnt make sense in today’s game (as defined by the last 7-8yrs).
Let’s talk specifics:
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Jacque Vaughn era is over. I revere what he did for KU, and even in the NBA as a backup. But I do not miss his playstyle. He was a “pure PG” if one wants to personify such a definition.
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Russell Robinson, 6’1, 200lbs was a 22ppg, top30 ‘combo’ guard. He literally did it all. Told by Self to stop doing his mini-Langford style hoop penetrations, as he wanted/needed him to be more of a distributive combo. Is on record as saying his favorite player was Jarrett Jack, a tough-ass, 6’3 “combo” guard who was like 200+lbs, and was the lead guard for GaTech, where Russell almost went to college.
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Keith Langford, 6’4, 205lbs. Now he was your typical 2-guard type slasher. Great off the dribble penetration, but not a primary ball-handler. I would/will always call him a “2” or “shooting” guard, he played that position, but actually was not known as a very good 3shooter. He admitted he did NOT buy in to Self’s defensive philosophies, and admitted in summer of 2008 that Self was right.
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Mario Chalmers, 6’1, 185lbs. Uh-oh, another ‘combo’ guard, MickeyDAA. Failed as passer, with another combo guard, RussRob showing a much better knack for ball distribution & even ball-handling, which is my WHOLE point of this post: some combos will be better than others, but we need multiple do-it-all types. Lets not go backwards in our recruiting, our size, our toughness, or athleticism. What RussRob shined at, allowed Chalmers to shine in other areas. To his credit, Chalmers has now improved to the point he can play ‘PG’ in the NBA, but you cannot call him a purePG, as he is STILL to this day, a scorer. Saved the Heat’s bacon in 2 championships.
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Tyshawn Taylor, a 6’3 gazelle. A Chalmer’s level ball-handler (not RussRob level), but hampered by poor decision making, perhaps masked his senior season by keeping the ball himself more (as he penetrated relentlessly). Always a scorer.
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Elijah Johnson, 6’2 grows to 6’4. Defensively outcompeted by Brady, and a Chalmer’s level ball-handler. When competent in Self’s ways, he re-proved the dual-combo-on-floor-at-all-times along with Tyshawn. When he was alone the following year, he only helped prove the flip side of Self’s wisdom of keeping 2 combo’s: we failed when we didnt have anyone competent to help EJ.
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Ben McLemore, 6’5 shooting guard. Shaky ball handling. Not asked to handle primary ball-handling duties, nor could he. Thus, not able to help EJ in a way that Tyshawn did. Stated another way, EJ was more of a help to TT than McLemore was to EJ. It was clearly obvious what Ben could and could not do. Stated even another way…if we had a more competent combo guard, BMac would have moved to 3wing, displacing Releford, as KU simply would have played better (again) with 2 combos, running 1 and 2.
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Travis Releford, 6’5 wing. Initially a slashing type of scorer. Not a primary ball-handler, although, being a foundation 5yr guy for Self, he definitely improved in his ball-handling. But still not good enough to call him a combo guard. He may have brought the ball up occasionally, but never was the lead guard by design, even for a few minute stretch, even in his senior year.
In summary: Combo guard, by definition, implies “competence” in ball-handling as well as scoring. This type of player is a more complete player.
Frank Mason is a 5’11, 190lb combo guard. He handles the ball very well. He was a historic-proportions scorer at his high school. His only issue was decision-making as a freshman in Bill Self’s system. Recall it took Russell Robinson into his junior season to become the 2.2:1 assist:t.o. machine that he became.
To me the reality is, you just arent going to get a freshman to come in and “run” Self’s system as a freshman. Too many plays to learn. Decisions, decisions, decisions to learn. Not even a MickeyD with stunning handles like Sherron could come in and “run the show”, although he subbed as a frosh, providing a very effective change of pace.
- Sherron Collins, 5’9, 205lbs, without doubt, one of the BEST combo guards KU has ever seen. And I’ll keep coming back to this proven fact over and over: 3 A-rated combos on the 08Champ team. 2 A-rated combos on the '12NRunnerUp team. Those are simply Self’s BEST 2 tournament runs EVER, in the history of his entire coaching. Easy conclusion, then of what we need to get back to! We got Frank Mason. Now who steps up as a 2nd or 3rd? Selden? (a 6’5 combo like Smart? or like 6’4 Deandre Kane?). Or Frankamp (another combo guard, with a surprisingly good a:t ratio, looking at his minutes played metrics). I’ll also add in the “twist” on Tharpe’s data: when he played with experienced seniors (Withey, KYo, Relef, EJ, and non-frosh BMac), he had several game stretches where he was 22asst:1 turnover, right? Now see him with last year’s newbie team…make’s one wonder that there is more to the “mix” than a kid’s innate ability. Against zones, maybe we werent quick enough to recognize and get back to help Naadir? His on-ball D remains a separate, individual issue, however…
Now fun discussion: 6’5 D.Wade is a combo guard. He does not have shaky handles against pressure, but he can also score. MJ was a 6’6 combo guard by ability, although he was listed at shooting guard sometimes, but more commonly simply as “guard”. It was MJ who almost always brought the ball up. All those greats start somewhere. I want the guy that is big, tall, athletic, that shows some ability from Day 1. I bet that’s Self’s ideal guard. And I dont think his desires have changed in that regard…but he isnt going to get every such recruit every single year.
The acquisition of competent combo guards is no guarantee. And their development, while pretty strongly positive under Self, is still not a 100% guarantee. But if you have 2 or 3 on a given year’s team, at least you’ve got plenty of competent talent ready to do all of what SelfBall requires, especially for a deep Tourney run.
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@icthawkfan316 --Not sure what we options we have of recruiting a PG. However when looking at we have.
Tharpe—Can shoot the ball and create his own shot. However he is very careless with the ball. Sometimes you just shake your head and can’t believe he just did that. Tharpe also seems to disappear when the game is on the line, not a good quality in a point guard. He is also is a liability on the defense side of the ball. HCBS will let him handle the rock to start the season, Yet I would look for a change somewhere at mid season.
Mason—Is a cannonball. Fearless, can get to the rack when he needs too. Lacks a good jump shot and doesn’t facilitate the offense. He is raw and with more experience and seasoning is the future PG of the Jayhawks. There is a reason HCBS went after this guy.
Frankamp—is a sturdy and dependable player. Plays solid defense and can shoot the three. He will protect the ball and will do a fine job in an emergency situation, but he is not a PG. He can’t get to the rack or create his own shoot. This is an important quality in a PG.
Unless there is some point guard out there to recruit, Mason is the answer, followed by Frankamp, and then Tharpe when the refs are calling the game to close.
Reality HCBS is loyal to his players. So the point guard situation will be as it was last year. I hope Tharpe comes ready to play.
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@ralster Good post. Loved reading your analysis breakdown of all our past guards. Wondering what your take is on Frankamp. I see you view Mason as a combo guard most likely on the rise. Given this, how far away do you think we are from having the requisite pieces to adequately compete with Self’s system?
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We do not need a new PG. People don’t seem to remember that Frank was only a freshman. He was also better than any freshman PG Self has ever had. He is better than Tyshawn as a Freshman, better than Sherron as a freshman, and he was 100 times better than Russel Robinson was as a freshman. If Mason makes to improvement from freshman to soph. year that every other PG under self (Robinson, Taylor, Tharpe, Collins) has done, he will not only be a serviceable PG but a well above average PG.
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A big part of what matters is chemistry. You can’t really teach that… Mason or Frankamp… or another guy… who knows who will create the best chemistry?
And then there are the other factors… speed, basketball IQ, dribbling passing and shooting… etc. etc. etc.
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"Now fun discussion: 6’5 D.Wade is a combo guard. He does not have shaky handles against pressure, but he can also score. MJ was a 6’6 combo guard by ability, although he was listed at shooting guard sometimes, but more commonly simply as “guard”. It was MJ who almost always brought the ball up. All those greats start somewhere. I want the guy that is big, tall, athletic, that shows some ability from Day 1. I bet that’s Self’s ideal guard. And I dont think his desires have changed in that regard…but he isnt going to get every such recruit every single year. "
We all want that… but that guard isn’t always available (rarely is).
So… which camp are you in?
Camp A - Combo Guard. I’d rather have height at PG to defend well and he can pass over most PGs. He may not be a true PG, but he is athletic, can get to the rim some, can pump the 3 some… decent passer.
Camp B - True PG. I’d rather have the short guy who is a true PG. He knows how to run a team, control tempo, rarely gets stuck on the dribble in a trap, great passer, decent shooter, good basketball IQ, can get to the rim.
Usually we have to pick from those two camps. Sometimes… we get neither!
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@drgnslayr I’d have to go with Camp A, as does Self. Because if a combo guard is good enough, he can do all of “camp B” things, but he is still 6’1-6’4. In addition to KU examples, think Ron Baker…a combo guard. He definitely ran WSU’s offense efficiently, when called upon to do it regularly.
While I like Mason alot, even better than Tharpe (because Mason can defend, and is fearless)…I also think Frankamp will be a valuable, steady performer, kind of like Brady was. He just isnt going to drive into the trees at high speed like Tyshawn, Sherron, or Mason…but he is showing us a great a:t ratio, and a knack for steals that Tharpe has never shown.
Even Tharpe’s play may look better next season, simply because everybody around him is experienced, compared to this season. But his D is still an issue.
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Really nice and complete analysis of recent KU PGs. Not all guards had good starts, you mention RussRob taking a couple of years to become acclimated to the Self System and flourishing afterwards. Mario was a turnover machine and Jeff Hawkins averaged almost 20 minutes per game playing PG on Mario’s freshman year.
One of my favorite KU combo guards is Kirk Hinrich. He is listed as Guard by the Bulls but he has been playing PG for them since Rose cannot seem to stay healthy, and he is the glue that keeps that team humming. I was in Chicago 4 or 5 years after he had started playing for them and I was surprised how popular and well liked he was; by far the most popular players in the team and all the locals always mentioned KU when talking about him.
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I like Frankamp’s game a lot. He may not have the speed of Mason, but he demonstrated much better decision making abilities than Tharpe. He was not speedy, and the dribble was kind of awkward, but he protected the ball well, rarely stuck or got trapped like Tharpe did. And I think it showed his understanding of the game, and he anticipated the plays before they happened. I agree with other posters and think Tharpe was very careless handling the ball and threw the ball away at some very opportune times. More than once, I noticed Coach Self sat him down for making a bad play, such as launching a ill timed three pointer, then as soon as he came back on the court, he launched a three pointer right away, as if telling Coach Self, “I can make the 3 and will shoot when I want to.” His recent twittergate further demonstrated his poor decision making. I think it’s time to switch horses, and run with Conner and Frank, or/and someone else.
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By the way, I hope Conner won’t gain 15-20 pounds. It will kill any athletic ability he has. Yes, more muscles, but not weight. He will never be a post up guard and may do quite well being a feather weight. Speed and agility training probably will do him more good.
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From the latest article on kusports, Maurice Watson committed to Creighton and Tarik Phillip committed to WVU. That takes two of the options out of the conversation since I originally posted this thread.
However, also per the kusports article, Devonte Graham is scheduled to visit this Friday. An official visit means this has gone beyond a casual interest and is now serious.
On a related note, we all know the scholarship situation and I can’t imagine that Self would consider pulling the offer to Turner. So we’re looking at someone transferring. It’s long been speculated that person would be AW3. My question is, wouldn’t it behoove him to announce sooner rather than later? Before other teams fill out their rosters and use up all their scholarships? Maybe he is contemplating staying another year, I just wonder why when it looks like playing time will again be scarce.
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@Wishawk He needs to gain some weight though man. The kid is 6’0" 165 soaking wet.
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@Lulufulu85 You don’t mean to tie a couple sand bags on his ankles or a dumb bell on his waist, I hope.
I hope he gains more muscle, but I just don’t see Conner will ever get to the body shape of Frank.
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@konkeyDong Well then I guess UConn has the right personnel or the right coach to run that offense because they beat several good teams and won another national championship, while Bill Self and Kansas were summarily dispatched by…Stanford.
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Been on a CIVIL WAR road trip through PA, Maryland, VA, WV and Ohio and came back to this thread and really enjoyed it.
Only add is conceptualization. The thread lays out a full spectrum of PG philosophies and the differences appear to track with a strategic spectrum of team play with two poles/paradigm (P1 and P2) and a third paradigm/tendency in the middle (P3).
P1 is a PG centric paradigm where the offense originates at PG and the PG moves down a tree diagram of cascading options. Think of PG as a server and 4 client computer network. The action in the network keeps circulating through a server. This would be the the classic do everything, run everything point guard in an offensive scheme enabling that sort of play. The purest, most abstract form of this was Phil Ford running the Four Corners for Dean Smith. Slayr, HEM, Ict, and konkey seem to be posting in varying degrees toward this pole of the spectrum, though not at the Four Corners XTReme.
P2 is the opposite pole. It is a 5 node internet model in which the point guard exists not a a server but as one node in a network. The point guard Initiates network function most of the time, but point guard function is then quickly distributed among several nodes. A purely abstract example would be a 5 guard offense. No one so far is posting, or coaching, at this extreme though a team like EKU approaches it. Fred Hoiberg has approached it at times perhaps. John Wooden’s first two ring teams approached it playing a high post with 5 starters under 6-5.
P3 is two networks linked, or two internets linked. The perimeter network has point guard and two wings. A point guard initiates and can act as a server with two clients, or as one node in a three node internet in which point guard function is highly distributed among two or three combo guards in the three node internet. An example of the latter would be Self’s '08 ring team, when Chalmers, RR, and Sherron were in–two wing points and a point point, if you will. The parallel network, internet, would be the two bigs.
I am not going to argue one strategic paradigm is intrinsically superior. Superiority depends on opponent and context. What one can say is that internets tend to have more “survivability” than networks. And networks can be more dedicated a fine tuned to certain tasks.
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I was sitting, reading, and thinking. A very crazy thought entered my head. Self is focusing on a pg now with Snacks. There are some really good prospects mentioned on this board, most all committed. Graham seems to be Self’s likely prospect and there also seems to be a good reason why he’s tapping his Wolfboro connection ala TRob and Tharpe.
My crazy thought was a bit alarming when this whole recruiting focus shifted from Turner to a pg. Now I’m getting nervous. Most of us think/thought Turner was a solid KU lean:
We don’t have Turner and Self is comfortable with the bigs, but wants a pg project? Or as we have speculated all long, we have turner and someone is transferring out. A pg will take the transferring spot. We can’t get Turner, keep everyone, and get a pg. Something is going to be sacrificed:
Turner
Tharpe
AW3
pg
We are speculaitng, but Self can’t possibly be going into another season with the pg situation of last year. It’s going to be a long one. It does no good to have “talent” if you don’t have a leader, general, or sparkplug on the court for that talent. For example, Turner and Alexander isn’t going to want Tharpe leading with his issues. We’ve said before that Mason is the closest pg we have right now, but Self is visibly and actively looking at pgs. I can only imagine what Mason and Tharpe are thinking right now.
This should light a fire under Mason. It’s going to be a nasty lesson for Tharpe if he is transferring for obvious reasons. What a terrible waste and loss to get this far, only to blow your once in a life-time chance with a program like KU. There are pgs out there that would kill to be in Tharpe’s situation. But, Self and Co will get him into a great program like Appleton. I just don’t think small pgs, except for Collins, can thrive in Self’s system. Appleton was a wasted piece of paper and left for a NAIA program. It happens and the kids have to accept it. It’s a lesson to learn, but Tharpe just didn’t turn the corner too well. The really sad part is, Tharpe is a junior and one of the worst junior or upperclassmen pgs in the nation. Most junior pgs are improving and leading at this point. Tharpe has failed, pure and simple. I hope he finds a good program and thrives.
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Here’s my thought process on a new PG, I am waiting for after the team banquet and see what is said there. Maybe they next day or two after there will be an announcement of who is transferring out and so on.
Then at that point we as fans will know where we stand with scholarships, and who is here and who is gone. Hopefully Turner will sign soon (with us) and we can also set up from there.
We can all speculate with who stays who goes, but I think Self has an idea of what he’s up to.
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@JRyman It’s interesting when you look at the type of pg Self’s system demands. Miles, Collins, Chalmers, RussRob, and TT. It’s a bit whacky, but hard to understand why these all did fairly well in some way or another. It seems the common denominator was a specific talent they each brought to Self’s system. Tharpe was touted as a fair pg that had a good head on his shoulders and even one of the best at reading on ball screens, and curls with great precision. Some analysts even went so far as to say he had nba type pg instincts. So, I think it’s safe to say that Tharpe has lost his edge and focus for bball. I think he’s coasting and has other interests right now occupying his mind.
Anywho, you’re right we’ll all know more over the next few weeks.
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I feel very confident in saying that Self is not giving up on Turner. Turner fits into Self’s philosophy, plus… why wouldn’t he keep reinforcing Kansas as a big man school?
If we are trying to land Turner and a guard, you can bet we will see a transfer.
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@drgnslayr Yep…Self can be a hard read and after all we’ve discussed about his decision making, he bothers me at times, haha. It’s funny how he has Snacks with him during this pg hunt. Snacks is clearly the recruiter and Self is the muscle or there for the parents. I think Snacks really connects with recruits and Self is great with the parents.
I can hear them talking before each visit, “Ok Snacks you take the kid in the livingroom, and I’ll occupy the parents in the kitchen. Together we’ll land our much needed pg.” Just my silly image or vision of Self and Snacks on the recruiting trail. Can you imagine the kid and parents comparing notes? haha, we’ll see soon enough.
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I’ve listed a couple of reads on Graham. The second being more current… and he has now been released and it appears Kansas and Florida are the biggest fish chasing Graham.
http://hoopdreamsmag.com/?p=8441
In the second read there is even mention that Tharpe could be recruited over in his senior year. Do you think?
Self puts his own tail on the line if he goes another year with Tharpe and he duds out again in March. I don’t see it happening. I sense a replacement coming. If this had been the only time Self had put his own neck out for a PG then I could see him chance it with Tharpe… but we’ve been down this road before… 2013!
Funny, in the second article the journalist made a big mistake… saying Jeff Capel wouldn’t let Graham out of his LOI at App State. It was his brother, Jason, who coached the Mountaineers. I had to look that one up, because we probably would already have signed Graham if Jeff was their coach because Graham has wanted out of his LOI for quite some time. I’m pretty sure Self has some strings with Jeff Capel… and he is now a Dukey trying to snag the vacancy when Coach K leaves.
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Then there is this:
"Among those to reach out to the Class of 2014’s best available point guard are Boston College, Cincinnati, Creighton, Florida, Florida St, George Mason, Georgia Tech, Kansas, Missouri, Nebraska, Providence, South Florida, Virginia, Virginia Tech and Xavier.
Coaches from most of those schools plan to fly to New Hampshire to visit Graham at Brewster Academy either Thursday, Friday or Sunday. Brewster coach Jason Smith said he expects Graham to narrow his list early next week once he has a chance to visit with all those coaches."
I’m betting that Self is putting on a full court press for this kid. The timing is just right to pinch him in while still going for Turner, and having time to let someone go off our roster (if it isn’t already a done deal).
Self is the best recruiter in the country after March Madness. Easily.
We haven’t always won every recruit… but Self is dangerous when he really wants a player and it’s crunch time. I can see this happening.
This time, Self has Norm Roberts by his side at Brewster.
Imagine landing Graham and Turner! I’m pretty sure we would be considered to have the #1 recruiting class coming in next year.
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Read Ralster’s take on the combo guards and how Self’s system seems to work best with two combo guards rather than the conventional PG-SG combination. Excellent analysis.
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@drgnslayr “The Jayhawks struggled this past season in part because of shaky point guard play, but it seems like a stretch that Graham would be able to unseat Naadir Tharpe in his senior season. Graham could be groomed as the point guard in waiting for the Jayhawks, though there’s always the worry that Bill Self could recruit over him.”
This is nuts to write. How could any educated and knowledgeable writer say anything remotely like this from the read? Other competing schools will use Tharpe as a deterent. Self has got to ‘promise’ this kid he will get some meaningful mins regardless. Graham has to understand KU pg is wide open for the taking. His chances are better than any other, even ‘senior’ pg Tharpe. This writer has no clue how desperate KU is for a pg. Right now, my 6 yr old son can play pg for KU and possibly start. He can handle the ball and makes better decisions than Tharpe. He can shoot as well comparatively. If anything, I’d say Graham would compete with soph pg Frank Mason. That statement is a bit more believeable and this could be used too against KU on the recruiting trail. It’s detrimental that KU’s strengths on the court can become their weaknesses off the court, particularly recruiting.
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“Snacks” might do the heavy lifting and lay the ground work during recruiting, but kids come to KU because of Coach Self first and foremost and Snacks is a distant second. If Snacks would be recruiting for MU/Haith, how many quality players do you think he would get?
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@JayHawkFanToo All due respect Fan, but if not for Snacks, we didn’t have a chance with Alex. Snacks changed KU’s chances with Alex. However, there is an unfair Chicago connection between the two. NO, you misunderstood my statement. I think Snacks communicates and relates to players better than most. Yes, Self is a huge attraction for players and even parents, but Snacks seems to have a way with these recruits that gives Self an even better chance. Snacks seems to be a players coach and then once they commit, they learn how Self is a player’s coach. So, Snacks, Townsend, and Roberts ropes them and Self pulls them into the KU corral. Or you can even say the reverse is true. Self ropes them, and the assitants pull them into KU.
Haith? WTH does Haith have to do with anything? Haith, is no where near Self. But your point is well taken too. You do have to ask, why did Self take Snacks? Just for fun? Experience? Mentoring? All the above? He could’ve taken Roberts or Townsend, In fact, the East coast is Roberts’ area of recruiting. I think there was a pretty good reason why Self took Snacks in particular.
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@wissoxfan83 I don’t know if anyone else has said it but, Na also came up clutch in the last few mins of the OU game to clinch a share of the title. He backed up his solid defensive effort against UT two days earlier with that stellar closeout performance against OU
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As I indicated before, Snacks might have the initial contacts and lay the original ground work but kids come to KU because of Coach Self and the KU tradition. Snacks might start the process but Self is the “Closer.” I can see why bigs in the past came to KU because of Self “AND” Manning, who had reputation with bigs. However, and to the best of my knowledge, Snacks is not really known, or at least not yet, for his coaching skills; his main talent right now is his connections, particularly in the Chicago area.
You did not answer my question, if Snacks is recruiting for MU and Frank Haith, do you think they get Alexander? Yes, It is possible but highly, highly unlikely.
By the way, I believe Slayer mentioned that Coach Self has Roberts with him at Brewster and not Snacks.
We haven’t always won every recruit… but Self is dangerous when he really wants a player and it’s crunch time. I can see this happening.
This time, Self has Norm Roberts by his side at Brewster."
Maybe you both can site a source?
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Read Ralster’s take on the combo guards and how Self’s system seems to work best with two combo guards rather than the conventional PG-SG combination. Excellent analysis.
I’ve read it and agree with his overall analysis. But, it actually proves my initial point about pgs. He’s right, it’s changed and his detailed analysis about each player is perfect. But, you’re not going to find those kids any longer either. I thought the opposite when faced with his post. I kept thinking, “Why can’t we find some of the skills of the past players?” It was a great recipe. The kids today can’t play within that system. They are too limited. Kids today, since 2008, want that ideal position. They want to focus on being a 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. There aren’t too many that can “combo” today very well. Self tries to “combo” too much and it backfires.
Funny, because all ralsters examples are perfect examples of “backfired” position failures. Collins is the lone exception, we’ll never get another Sherron Collins combo guard. But, TT and EJ were both 2 guards, not combo guards. I think based on what I see from other programs, ie. UConn, UF, UK, Zona, and a few other key teams, your true 1s, 2s, 3s, 4s, and 5s thrive.
NOW, I don’t disagree with the idea at all, IF the player can make the transition to “combo,” then great, do it. But, I don’t see players making that HCBS transition to combo, particularly 1 and 2s today. I’ll never forget Mario Little and how Self tried to force him into the 3/4 to post him, but Little never really worked well at the 4. He was a true 3. But we had others that worked in the 4 much better than Little. I do think you can combo your 4 and 5s well. Your 3 is a bit more specialized, but possible. I think what ralster fails to remember, it’s not Self’s plan that is necessarily wrong, but the ability of the player that limits the idea. Again, Collins, Chalmers, RussRob, and others were rare talents that just worked out for Self.
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@ralster Excellent analysis. Very enjoyable read.
“In summary: Combo guard, by definition, implies “competence” in ball-handling as well as scoring. This type of player is a more complete player.”
Ok, then. I do think we would all agree by that summary that the term “combo-guard” is way overused. Let’s go with your definition. It is more exclusive than what is the common usage (i.e., the high level ball handling).
One thing by observation then – has Self ever had a pure point guard here other than Miles (who he inherited)? Heck, Russell Robinson was a 2 guard coming in. It seems that every guard has been called a combo guard – even Tharpe – particularly when he fails.
Something like, “Well, he’s never really played point guard. He’s learning the position.”
How many times have we heard that?
So the idea here is NOT to have a prototypical point guard? The drive and dish guy. The creator.
I will respectfully disagree here with the conclusion (while still enjoying the astute analysis).
Self’s system, in my opinion, desperately needs a pure point guard. @jaybate 's “P3”. But let’s not get too caught up in the detail. Bobby Hurley was a pure point guard, but he scored. Best college point guard in recent times, in my opinion. We’re just talking a guy that will look to pass first, has the developed skill to create for others, has the ability to handle under duress, can get to the rack and finish, and can hit the three at a reasonable rate.
I saw Mason on an upward trajectory – better three point shooting near the end of the season (ended the same as Selden), was creating more on drives, and was more in control. Heck, he demonstrated more “learning” than Tyshawn Taylor did in three seasons.
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My argument is simple. Look at the other programs. The successful coaches let their players play THEIR positions. Again, I don’t disagree with having “combo” anything, if it works. But to force a player who is not going to work in the combo position, is dangerous. KU has faced this all too much. Also, I don’t see other coaches pushing their 1s and 2s into “combo” situations. I just think it is almost like taking a great hitter, expecting him to switch hit, and just not being able to make the switch. In other words, he may hit 300-400 as his natural hitting preference and then 200-300 as a switch hitter. Leave players alone and let them play or recruit them at their natural positions. Again, all due respect, but just not workinng well right now.
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@wissoxfan83 I don’t know if anyone else has said it but, Na also came up clutch in the last few mins of the OU game to clinch a share of the title. He backed up his solid defensive effort against UT two days earlier with that stellar closeout performance against OU
I know wissox, I know…believe me. I for one stayed on the Tharpe wagon a long time. He would have a great game and then disappear. I waited and gave him passes up to now. I just don’t think he’s able to handle the on and off court pressure and expectations. I hope to be wrong, but his last little fiasco pretty much sealed his fate. If he stays, it will be by the good graces of HCBS, but he has really hurt himself in so many ways.
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“Maybe you both can site a source?”
I have no source except the knowledge that Roberts is the best recruiter Self has, and he’s an east coaster who does his best work out east.
I could be wrong on that… but why wouldn’t he involve Roberts on a full court press for a recruit?
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“I know wissox, I know…believe me. I for one stayed on the Tharpe wagon a long time. He would have a great game and then disappear. I waited and gave him passes up to now. I just don’t think he’s able to handle the on and off court pressure and expectations. I hope to be wrong, but his last little fiasco pretty much sealed his fate. If he stays, it will be by the good graces of HCBS, but he has really hurt himself in so many ways.”
I think Tharpe has really put Self in a bind. Self has a reputation as being a “player’s coach”… meaning… he is willing to put his own neck out there for his players, far beyond what most coaches will do. He’s done it for several players… EJ coming to mind recently.
But it is starting to wear on the Jayhawk Nation. There will be a major major explosion in our fan base if he stays with Naadir this coming year… another year filled with big hopes and expectations after another blazing recruiting year, only to end with Tharpe falling out again.
I don’t think Tharpe helped himself with his selfie. That was a real act of defiance not only to Self, but to all Jayhawk fans. It definitely pissed me off. Okay… he didn’t post it, but he took the friggin’ photo! He should have known better. When you put his horrible late season play together with his act of defiance, it is too much for Jayhawk fans to weather.
Self would like to see a happy ending for Tharpe… meaning… a good senior year with positive outcome. But is he willing to stick his neck out for him (again)? The stakes keep growing with each time he does this and it doesn’t pan out.
And if Tharpe goes to the bench for a freshman, does he want to stay for his senior year? I don’t know… but maybe it is in Tharpe’s best interest to transfer… even as a senior! Sit a year, work on his game and getting his s#it together. Then he can sell the new, improved Tharpe to some school somewhere. I doubt this happens… mostly because Tharpe has proven he doesn’t step up to take charge of his life.
D1 ball is a one shot deal… either you do well and leave with momentum… or you start thinking of another occupation after D1, like being an auto mechanic or furniture salesman.
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First off, I look at Newman and I love his abilities. Great bounce, nice explosion, can get shots for himself and others.
The PG position has changed. This isn’t 1974, where the PG walked the ball up the floor and passed it to the wing or into the post. This is the era where the PG pushes the ball, penetrates the defense and can either score, dump it to a big or kick it out for a three. UConn has won 2 titles in the last four years with a PG that could do just that. Louisville won a title last year with two guys doing that. UNC won the 2009 title with a PG doing that. That’s 4 of the last six titles centered around a slash and kick style system.
Graham could be a nice addition, and he won’t be an OAD. The one thing I am concerned about is his lack of vertical explosion. He’s a blur with the ball and has great moves on the floor. However, for a slasher, he doesn’t get ideal explosion. There’s a notable difference between him and Newman when it comes to getting off the floor. Obviously, Newman is the ideal, but there’s something to be said for that level of athleticism.
Looking at Watson, the problem would be that he would have to sit out, and even then, how substantial an upgrade is he from what we currently have. Watch him and tell me that you couldn’t see Frank Mason being that type of player at a non major D1 school. If we are going to get someone, it needs to be an upgrade.
As for Phillip, I can’t find any video of him, but I know that Independence has done a good job of producing some good transfer talent throughout the years. He could be an interesting find, especially since he would add some size.
The most interesting thing about all of this is what it means for Naadir and either Mason or Frankamp. If Self adds a PG, particularly if its either Graham or Phillip, that probably means Tharpe is done at KU. There’s also the possibility that if that happens either Mason or Frankamp may transfer due to the numbers/position crunch caused by an additional PG on the roster.
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“Graham could be a nice addition, and he won’t be an OAD. The one thing I am concerned about is his lack of vertical explosion. He’s a blur with the ball and has great moves on the floor.”
I’d rather have a point who is explosive horizontally, then vertically. You mention UCONN… Napier wasn’t a vertical leaper.
The smart little guys use quickness and the skill of creating scoring space to score on bigger players… not jumping over them. EJ was a leaper, but his only scoring at the rim were the blind alley-oops.
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Ok. I’m confused.
To borrow the terminology from HEM, how is no-rank Graham going to be the answer NEXT year, ahead of the options we already have?
If this was Tyus Jones, then I get it. But Graham won’t contribute for atleast a couple of year. By then, I’m hoping we can land an Elite PG.
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Graham was a no-rank because he was already signed with App State, and then he stuck another year at Brewster and developed considerably.
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@FarSideHawk The other thing that tells you this kid is probably legit is who else is recruiting him. If it was KU and just a bunch of middling teams, then OK I would see your point. However, when you factor in that Florida is/was also recruiting him, it lends credibility to him being considerably better than a “no-rank” player.
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This is not a move where Self would be planning on this guy starting. Cannot even imagine that. It’s for depth.
@FarSideHawk brings up a good point. Why get Graham now? Very importantly, the 2015 class has just two top 50 point guards. When Tharpe graduates, we would be left then with just two ball handlers, Mason and CF. If we are going to get a lower ranked guy, why not get him now so by 2015-16 he’ll have a year under his belt?
Hmmm … where would Milton Doyle be now if he stayed?
I’m interested, though, in when the transfer news is coming. One spot open. Trying to land Graham and Turner.
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@FarSideHawk Seems like this is for security in case of injuries and the fact that we are losing Tharpe and probably Selden at the end of this year. I am sure Bill is still going to go after the top PG’s available for the next recruiting class he brings in. We are overdue to land a top shelf PG.
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Just info -
ESPN Top 60 for 2015 Point Guards:
-#23 Alonzo Trier - We’re recruiting him.
-#32 Jalen Brunson, #55 Kendall Small, and #60 Nick Noskoviak - We are not recruiting them.
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Ok, I kinda see it now. It’s slim pickings in 2015, so we’re hedging now. If we land Alonzo, someone will have to transfer again due to over crowding. Ugh!
If we are pursuing Turner and Graham at once, then I’m guessing either of the following headlines (or both) coming out soon.
White transfers and/or Naadir is off the team.
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Let;s say KU has only one schoolie left (no one transfers) and given a choice between Devonte Graham and Myles Turner, who would you pick and why?
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@JayHawkFanToo Uh … Turner. I want to really hear the logic from the guy who votes for Graham.
Could I possibly go back in time and get Jermaine Lawrence in the 2013 class, and skip Turner now?
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@JayHawkFanToo Graham. because ummm ummm his uncle said that is better than Chris Paul.
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“Let;s say KU has only one schoolie left (no one transfers) and given a choice between Devonte Graham and Myles Turner, who would you pick and why?”
I think the answer is “both” and someone transfers.
We would never pursue Graham at the expense of Turner… and we are pursuing Graham. So that can only mean one thing (if we are still in the running for Turner).
Self said a while back that we are far from done on the recruiting trail for next year… and that was before Embiid decided to leave.
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@drgnslayr I am a bit puzzled, as @icthawkfan316 said, that we have had no transfer news yet. Would have expected it by now.
