Big 12 Suspensions
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benshawks08 said:
@bskeet If your saying call the game the same from start to finish I agree on that. But I don’t think blowouts and dribbling out the clock should have anything special or different from regular play. But I’m honestly not that upset about the steal or the block. Clock is running, game on. Does it make the KState player look foolish, sure but that’s for him to deal with.
I totally agree about the steal and the block and the impact on the KState player.
Regarding officiating, the reality is that the game is not called the same from start to finish, so I’m not actually saying that.
It is already standard practice to have so called "points of emphasis’. Likewise, it is standard practice to vary how strictly to enforce the rules throughout the game.
For instance, if there is an event where officials think things are getting chippy… they will tend to be less tolerant and call ‘touch’ fouls to maintain control of the game. Other times, the rules are less strictly enforced and they ‘let them play’. (some say the officials ‘swallow their whistle’)
It would be consistent with current practices if NCAA officiating crews formally institute the practice of strictly enforcing any contact on steals – specifically at the end of blowouts.
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I disagree about the block. If it had ended there, without the subsequent taunt, that would have been poetic. Block the shot and walk away. Sends the right message:
“Don’t be unsportsmanlike, young man. You can’t handle it.”
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@tundrahok I think you are saying the block was fair game, which is what @benshawks08 and I are also saying.
The block was a basketball play and, given the steal, completely legit.
The taunt was not a basketball play and was not ok. If only he had blocked it and walked away.
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Block the shot, help the guy up, and pat him on the shoulder and say good try little fella and wander off smiling. Done properly it’'s as effective as standing over a guy with none of the downside.
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Lil fella!
so great that we are grown up and wise now.
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@bskeet I meant I disagree with Bilas. He said the block was unnecessary. I thought it was awesome. At least, if had ended there.
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Crimsonorblue22 said:
Lil fella!
so great that we are grown up and wise now.It’s hard to refrain from a dig on a guard challenging a 6’10" guy.
I mean, it’s kind of classic: the guard can steal the ball, but can’t get the shot off over the big man, so it’s a stalemate.
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@Kubie Exactly.
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tundrahok said:
@bskeet I meant I disagree with Bilas. He said it was unnecessary. I thought it was awesome. At least, if had ended there.
Oh! I had not heard Bilas say that. I thought in his column earlier in the week, he was not critical of the block…
Anyway, I will give him credit for being very level-headed, thoughtful and balanced on this topic. But I will agree with you that the block itself was not the problem. I might even go so far as to say it was appropriate given the steal.
Anyone criticizing the block should remember this simple equation: No steal = No block.
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It can be BOTH unnecessary AND legitimate. Think for a moment what would have happened if Silvio’s aim on the block had been off by 6 inches and he totally creamed the guy trying to shoot, or if he had fallen and gotten injured. How many of us would say that result would have been worth the risk?
Legitimate because he accomplished it without injury to either player. I called my wife in to watch it on replay–we were laughing!–but then on the 2nd playing the aftermath became apparent.
Unnecessary because letting it go would have had no effect.
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I’ve watched the video several times. I paid close attention to Silvio lifting up the chair over his head.
I’m convinced he never intended to hit anyone with that chair. He was posturing. It’s a cultural thing because he’s actually a chilled out guy coming from a chilled out culture.
If his intention was violence, he had time before the chair to really beat on some people. He was backing up and even though Silvio may be the strongest guy on our team I think he is harmless and has no concept of how to fight. I doubt if he has ever been in a fight before.
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bskeet said:
tundrahok said:
@bskeet I meant I disagree with Bilas. He said it was unnecessary. I thought it was awesome. At least, if had ended there.
Oh! I had not heard Bilas say that. I thought in his column earlier in the week, he was not critical of the block…
Anyway, I will give him credit for being very level-headed, thoughtful and balanced on this topic. But I will agree with you that the block itself was not the problem. I might even go so far as to say it was appropriate given the steal.
Anyone criticizing the block should remember this simple equation: No steal = No block.
The block was never the issue. If Silvio still makes that block, lets out a yell while walking away, nothing else happens. Standing over Gordon is what sparked everything else that followed. We can blame Love for coming off the bench and he definitely deserves his fair share of blame for that, but it doesn’t mean Silvio wasn’t in the wrong standing over Gordon and taunting him as well.
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Yes Silvio’s actions where those of a jerk, but that doesn’t make it ok to hit him. Jeez I tell my four year old this crap, you’d think adults would have it figured out.
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@dylans No one has said that it made it “ok to hit him.” Can you find one person here who said that? The first punch being thrown was stupidity. “Ok” isn’t the discussion.
I quite sure that you teach your four year old that if you take certain actions, then certain unfortunate consequences may follow. That doesn’t make those consequences “ok.” But in life, there are experiences that tell us that consequences, “ok” or not, may follow.
What would be your reaction to the unprovoked thug-like response by Silvio to stand over him? Would you calmly look up at his junk and let the moment pass? If you were the KSU player’s teammates, would you stand by and just observe? We’ve seen folks very complimentary (and correctly so in my opinion) of KU players coming to Silvio’s side. That’s what the KSU players did in the face of Silvio thug-like response.
The punches thrown were not “ok”. But a physical confrontation after Silvio poor behavior is an expected response as would be a little pushing and shoving as part of that.
If I’m in line at the store and a woman and man in front of me are going slow, and I scream, “Come on, would you f-ing hurry up?” And the man reacts and turns and pushes me really hard in the chest, knocking me down, is that “ok.” Should he have have done that? Probably not. But is it within the realm of expected responses? Absolutely. My conduct was akin to Silvio’s in the context of the situation. A reasonable response might be the man turning, confronting me, and suggesting I shut my mouth. That’s seems about what the initial response of the KSU players was. The first punch was much, much different, much like the guy in the line at the store becoming violent and knocking me down (in the example).
There is nothing about stealing the ball and going in for a layup that would cause one to expect Silvio’s thug-like response. Nothing. Not even close to reasonable. Steals, layups and swats happen all the time.
However, when someone is standing over someone like a thug while the other is laying on the ground, it is quite expected that a confrontation may occur. Who wouldn’t expect that?
There were three events that occurred here that were completely unreasonable and completely out of the realm of reason … 1) Silvio standing over him like a thug, 2) the first punch thrown, and 3) Silvio picking up the chair.
The first act in that sequence was Silvio. The suspensions and assessment of blame that goes with that seems about perfect.
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Can some folks read or listen to this piece please about the word “thug”? It’s a solid academic take on language and race and how those things work together and against each other. It’s not very long nor do I think it’s political in nature. Words matter.
https://www.npr.org/2015/04/30/403362626/the-racially-charged-meaning-behind-the-word-thug
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@benshawks08 when white supremacists use the word thug I cringe. Many times people become racist without realizing it. I’ve got a video I need to post about this later when I’m home.
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@HighEliteMajor By your logic (and as you’ve mentioned before) taunting happens all the time too but fighting and brawls don’t. We all agree the taunt was wrong but it is entirely possible To be tainted and then not fight. I would argue that is the manlier response, to have enough pride and self respect to not let someone else define your masculinity. Get up and walk away. Master your emotions. That’s what we need to be praising boys and young men for if we want to prevent things like this from happening again.
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BShark said:
@benshawks08 when white supremacists use the word thug I cringe. Many times people become racist without realizing it. I’ve got a video I need to post about this later when I’m home.
Right, it’s might be different if the guy didn’t overtly advertise how racist he is in about every third post. At what point is enough enough with this crap? Go post that crap on stormfront or breitbart, ya know?
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I use the word thug purposefully and with intention. The meltdown is always entertaining. The glorification of the thug demands recognition of the thug. Perhaps if it wasn’t glorified some might not associate the conduct with the word.
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@HighEliteMajor Purposefully and intentionally racist. Got it. Glad your ok with that. I won’t be.
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“I use the word thug purposefully and with intention. The meltdown is always entertaining.”
Wikepedia: “In internet slang, a troll is a person who starts quarrels or upsets people on the Internet to distract and sow discord by posting inflammatory and digressive, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the intent of provoking readers into displaying emotional responses and normalizing tangential discussion, whether for the troll’s amusement or a specific gain.”
Astounding. I have never seen anyone admit being one so aptly! I wonder if the entry can be edited to provide a link to that admission.
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@mayjay I just wish I could read about basketball without having to confront white supremacy every other day. Not sure how a person of color could stand to be on this site.
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@benshawks08 some have left.
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mayjay said:
“I use the word thug purposefully and with intention. The meltdown is always entertaining.”
Wikepedia: “In internet slang, a troll is a person who starts quarrels or upsets people on the Internet to distract and sow discord by posting inflammatory and digressive, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the intent of provoking readers into displaying emotional responses and normalizing tangential discussion, whether for the troll’s amusement or a specific gain.”
Astounding. I have never seen anyone admit being one so aptly! I wonder if the entry can be edited to provide a link to that admission.
lmao, al I can say is Dammmmmmm , Score. - very solid, ol wikepedia CAN be useful after all. -couldn’t of been said better.
Now , that incident was last Tuesday , that all is in the past, the past is the past, you can’t change the past all you can do is look ahead - -today for today lie I said the past is the past , live today for today because tomorrow is never promised. Time to drop this , even though there are some that will still try to continue to stir the pot - -nothing can be changed & I agree 100 % with your post – some just keep wanting to go on & on & on - -I think the definition of a troll pretty well says it all -perfect example some people that’s just who they are they want to see if they can get people worked up ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG ABBY
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benshawks08 said:
Can some folks read or listen to this piece please about the word “thug”? It’s a solid academic take on language and race and how those things work together and against each other. It’s not very long nor do I think it’s political in nature. Words matter.
https://www.npr.org/2015/04/30/403362626/the-racially-charged-meaning-behind-the-word-thug
Good find.
I used the term ‘punks’ as well as ‘thugs’ because I think they describe similar behavior but have acquired racially-specific connotations over time.
Too bad there isn’t a word like ‘pungs’ or ‘thunks’ that could neutralize the racial aspects and allow us to focus on the behavior.
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“Jerk” is a good word. Or for aggressive people, “pugilistic.”
Silvio looked all pugilistic at Gordon!
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@bskeet I think the key is to just describe the behavior instead of trying to then come up with a name to call a person. It’s hard to do and often takes more words and significantly more thought, two things I don’t always have. But I think it’s worth it to try.
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@mayjay pugilist is a very underused word!
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Of course, my entire point on all of this is preservation of life. I have tried to highlight that urban areas and the violence is ignored. It’s sickening. Black lives taken in mass numbers and all folks do is blame guns and racism and whatever else is convenient to ignore the truth. Meanwhile, while their protectors and enablers wring their hands, more die. This is a great example of why things don’t change.
It doesn’t matter the logic, or the stats, or the crime maps, or proof. It doesn’t matter what we see with our own eyes and how, for example, behavior by athletes has noticeably shifted in the last 20-25 years and the me first, pound the chest, screaming, gyrating, etc. None of it matters.
None of it matters because folks don’t have the guts to discuss all options.
Done.
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@HighEliteMajor Yeah when one person says they know THE TRUTH and aren’t just saying they are friends with paul pierce I’m going to be critical. There is never ONE reason or factor to such a massive issue like the broad issue you call inner city violence. You tell people that they are ignoring what is right in front of them but do no self reflection on what you might not be able to see from your perspective. Try learning something instead of preaching for a change.
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@benshawks08 Well, I never said that. I never said one reason. I’ve fully explained my position. On the other hand, you have spent much effort suggesting my position has zero merit. Hell, when we began this a while back you were surprised at the out of wedlock birthrates I quoted, which is the core factor, in my opinion.
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@HighEliteMajor Positions that start with racism are in my book without merit so you got me there. You didn’t talk just about out of wedlock births. They were specifically black single moms that were the problem. Or was it the black men who weren’t around who were the problem? It’s hard to keep track of which black person is your problem at any given moment.
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We live in strange times.
I have to say that I really don’t like how our society hijacks words and phrases… applying some kind of definitive current, popular trend.
Thinking about “thug”… I’ve used that word (sometimes) throughout my life. It never ONCE was meant to be some sort of secret code for the “n-word.” I applied the word meaning rough people who attempt to control a situation with violence or brute force. That brute force can be non-violent. I mentioned examples in my previous post.
The constant addition of meanings to language can create problems as much as help identify problems. For example… some may now think I’m a racist because I used the word “thug.”
Look at our country right now. It’s building powder keg over stuff like this. I doubt there are many people who want to be tagged “racist.” And though they may have done something or made a statement that falls into this new prejudgment system pointing to being labeled “racist” the prejudgment in itself is the same potential “character flaw” that goes with the definition of “racist.”
My perspective is to give people the benefit of the doubt and think positively about them. It’s worked for me my entire life and I am truly blessed with many friends from all walks of life.
I hope we can move past making judgments of each other and focus on our love for Jayhawk basketball.
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@drgnslayr The coopting of the word “thug” was done by the racists who used it as a code, not by the people who recognized it as it was happening. Many of us have used it innocently throughout our lives, but not resorting to using it because of its inflammatory context is a small price to pay for avoiding misunderstandings.
Here in SC, I have heard defenses of “boy” meaning any black man, and people who claim the n-word can be used by whites in general conversation as a term of affection. And many whites here seem to think it is important to note that someone is black when race has nothing to do with anything in the conversation. (2 weeks ago a retired Army Lt Col I met: “We went to our grandson’s basketball game on Saturday. He always gets into the game but doesn’t really try to score. They were playing a team of black kids.”)
Racism is nowhere near going away. It does tend to be more subtle. But when it is more hidden, is it less dangerous–or more? And I agree hardly anyone wants to be called “racist”, but why would they? “By their fruits ye shall know them” goes to character as well as faith.
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Well one thing came to light for sure with the suspensions on Saturday.
That is without Dave’s availability when Doke is not on the floor, if we have to go an extended amount of time - - we are screwed.
Thank GOD we have only one more game and that is tonight. perfect example was Saturday as soon as Doke was out Tennessee took it inside and we had NO ANSWER none - - period. It became really evident there was zero resistence. Now I know that Mc Cormack is not some super stud and a scoring Machine , and I also know that he at this point is not a Doke by far on the defensive end.
However what Dave is , is another Big body that yes can get some rebounds and at least be a body - -a big body that makes it harder for the other team to Score. I mean when Doke was out Saturday it wasn’t like there was a small leak in the Dam - -more like an all out breach. Will be glad to have McCormack for the fore mentioned reason. - Pretty obvious what happens without no Dave - - No Silvio , we have no answer. – ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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Yeah when Doke was on the bench it created a big problem. The unexpected foul trouble just made it even worse.
I will say that this was kind of the perfect storm of situations. I don’t know many teams that could prepare in 3-4 days to have guys guarding positions they normally don’t. Enaruna & Agbaji were in tough spots especially. Pons of Tennessee is an athletic freak and is a tough matchup for anyone. It didn’t look great without Doke on the floor he was a game changer on both ends. He’s become one of the most important and impactful players in all of College Basketball. He’s playing at an All American level
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Silent racism is the worst. All you want to know is who doesn’t like you so you know what is going on.
I’ve never like the word “racist” even though these people who fit the description are out there. I’d rather call it “blind hatred.” The result is hatred, whether very outgoing or subtle. Using the word “racist” just flames everything negatively because we have attached many definitions to the word and no one likes to be described down to a ‘t’.
Happy people don’t have time for hatred. Let’s all cure hatred in the world and almost every problem in the world will vanish. I don’t have time or energy to hate KKK people back. I feel sympathetic with these people for having a life often based on hatred. I hope and pray they find a way to be happy and love the world. Better for them, better for everyone!
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BeddieKU23 said:
Yeah when Doke was on the bench it created a big problem. The unexpected foul trouble just made it even worse.
I will say that this was kind of the perfect storm of situations. I don’t know many teams that could prepare in 3-4 days to have guys guarding positions they normally don’t. Enaruna & Agbaji were in tough spots especially. Pons of Tennessee is an athletic freak and is a tough matchup for anyone. It didn’t look great without Doke on the floor he was a game changer on both ends. He’s become one of the most important and impactful players in all of College Basketball. He’s playing at an All American level
Boy , he sure is. Mercy Doke just looks so much better , since sliming down & toned - just really looks a lot more athletic. Moves his feet better. I don’t remember him being that much of a rim protector before , gotta think he has to feel better also, better conditioned.
I’m a little worried about Enaruna , I’m sure it will work out. Yet even as raw as he was he looked better in the early going, now just looks totally lost, I’m sure it’s in his head now - - typical freshman, then I’m sure he is also another over thinkin kid trying to hard and worried about getting yanked , probably overwhelming - it will come. He has talent we know that, showed early on had some really smooth drives to the hole, yet it even looks like he has lost what little bit of shot he had - -just takes time. Just will be good to get McCormack back. - - ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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Yep its the best version of Doke we’ve seen at KU. He’s put in the work and seeing the fruits of his labor. This past weekends game was one of the few where foul trouble has been a concern for him this year. His feel on the defensive side (sliding feet, impacting shots without fouling has improved leaps and bounds) and its exciting to see. Hopefully tonight he can stay on the floor a bit more without foul concerns.
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@drgnslayr You are right that love over hate is the goal. Starting by giving the benefit of the doubt and assuming positive intent are also worthy aspirations. There are times though as Maya Angelou says, “when a person shows you who they are, believe them.” That’s kind of where I am with @HighEliteMajor at this point. At some point all that benefit of the doubt just becomes enabling or silent acceptance. That’s why I feel the need to call it out and call it racism whenever I see it. Racism is prejudice plus power. If we always give those in power the benefit of the doubt, those without power suffer.
It is really hard to respond to hate with love and definitely something we could all get better at.
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@benshawks08 Turning the other cheek become more difficult when they go for all four of them!
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@mayjay If I remember correctly a couple of mine were threatened not too long ago! Lol.
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@benshawks08 I have clearly said that the out of wedlock births are the most important factor. And yea, if it’s blacks we’re talking about, it would be black men and women. You have zero credibility when you mock this issue. But the left is big on that – mocking consideration of issues that threaten their narrative. Look at the idiots in Chicago in response to Rahm Emanuel. It was like a bomb went off. That’s not logic. It’s irrationality. That’s you. You are that.
Folks cry racism all the time. I’m well beyond being that concerned about that diluted word being thrown at me here. That’s fine. It’s easy to type, it’s easy to feel, but it avoids defeating arguments. If @mayjay or you, or anyone else defines my comments as racist, I’m good with that. I am clearly talking about things in racial terms. That’s fits the broad brush with most that cry racism. Similarly, when you or other folks discuss white privilege, or male privilege, that would be broad brush racist or sexist. I don’t care to really indulge that line of debate.
I was at a Christmas party a year + ago and a black woman was ranting about Trump. I had the temerity to suggest that many of us voted for him, not because we like him or his demeanor, but because we preferred his policies over Clinton. You would have thought I donned a KKK mask and jumped on horse. It was the spewing of irrational accusations and garbage that quite frankly is much akin to what you offer. It doesn’t matter to you and leftists. You cry racism and that’s the end of the discussion. You have no ability to debate a topic.
I know I hate seeing the murder, mayhem and violence. That’s what I hate. People dying. I know that doesn’t really occur in mass quantities in the suburbs or much in rural areas, even per capita as previously discussed. I do know that when I look at crime maps they tend to match up quite obviously with racial populations. I do know the violent crime stats. I do know reality. Don’t walk the street at 23rd and Prospect in KC. Feel free to walk the street at 103rd and Antioch in OP. That’s reality. I believe I’ve identified some very large reasons why. Of course, folks like you think that crime maps by race are racist, I’ve heard the arguments.
If you and your family are walking down the street at 43rd and Prospect and a group of black teens are following. Fear for your safety? If you and you’re family are at 103rd and Antioch in OP, walking down the street, and a group of white teens are following. Fear for your safety? Ground level. Reality. Undeniable. Of course, the first response is that one would never walk down the street at 43rd and Prospect with their family. Right.
The fact is each race, in large part, has its culture. It’s something that binds people. To ignore that it is to ignore facts. There is a perverted culture within the inner city black communities that is broken, it’s destructive, and at its core, causes mass death and destruction. The results are undeniable.
I pointed out another broken culture that was/is within the Catholic church and the assaults on young boys. Very similar discussion.
Without that diluted word “racism” holding folks back from an honest, all points discussion, my argument wins in a knockout. Based on this wide ranging debate, with all the shots taken, there is nothing that even caused swelling. But invoke the word racism and everything else goes out the window with some. It’s easier to worry about the word “racism” than challenge your thoughts and take the risk of offending.
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By the way, I’m done with this topic in the basketball section. Anyone that wants the final word feel free.
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@HighEliteMajor I’m with you. You can have it. Wait - dang it.
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@HighEliteMajor No one has argued that violent crime isn’t a problem. Nor have a “mocked this issue” whatever that means. There has been significant argument about what you’ve “identified” as “some very large reasons why.” Crime maps by race are not inherently racist but become that when a person uses it to argue that one race is better/worse than another. You either believe that all people are created equal or you don’t. You can declare my stance as lacking credibility but I’m comfortable with the problems I’ve pointed out in your “wins in a knockout” argument. You see, I am not proposing to have THE answer to violent crime because I don’t know everything about the statistics, the causes, or the people involved. It’s clear you’ve spent more time studying the issue than I have but that doesn’t make your conclusions correct. You can declare yourself the smartest person in the room and the winner of all arguments but you continue to refuse to reevaluate your own stance and accept the problems that many on here of pointed out.
Your little scenario gets directly at the problem with your argument. It seems you have a natural fear of black people and are comfortable attributing the actions of a few to an entire group of people. That prejudice tints your view of everything and closes you off to seeing things from another perspective. Perhaps try to “challenge your thoughts” and take the risk of admitting you could be wrong.
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@HighEliteMajor You assume too much. The only time I got mugged, it was on Belinder Road and 67th in Mission Hills by 2 white guys who went to Rockhurst.
Interestingly, it had racial overtones due to the 'fro I was wearing. They took objection to it.
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just saying friends I think he said he was done with the topic , think we just time to move along from this and find FUN things to talk about -OR whatever you want to go on - -then that’s up to you I guess , he surrendered lol. - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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Not to stir up this can of worms… but…
Am I the only one in here that is worried about what science will discover in the future concerning the human species?
What if science finds DNA markers that match certain specific generalizations often attributed to race? Especially negative generalizations.
What would we do as a society? Might we finally come to the realization that we have to accept each other, flaws and all, and work towards something positive?
At least I will sleep better knowing science can point to some good, too:
We can learn a lot from rats. I’m not talking about people we call “rats.” I’m talking about rats!
https://greatergood.berkeley.edu/article/item/are_rats
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3884117/
There is a lesson in this for all of us.
Peace all!
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@drgnslayr So far all the science points exactly to the opposite. Race doesn’t even really exist scientifically. It’s a social construct.
