Start Isaiah Moss
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@drgnslayr no way, not even a lil!
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@drgnslayr was it the isu game where the 2 bigs worked pretty good? Not long ago they did pretty good. I’ll have to look.
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Yeah that was one, Iowa St is also statistically the worst defending team in the league.
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Would love to know what software he used for that. Also to plug out the data on what combination is producing best. I’m sure we have a good enough idea as it is.
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drgnslayr said:
Concerning running the two bigs… a part of me says “trust Self.” He’s proved me wrong before.
What everyone forgets about the 2 big thing on this team is that Marcus on a scouting report is ZERO threat from the outside. So really its almost like playing with 3 bigs because anyone guarding Marcus can sag. Add to that Dotson and Agbaji are inconsistent outside shooters and its one big recipe for a clogfest.
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That hoop-explorer site is fun.
KU’s current starting lineup (Dotson, Garrett, Agbaji, McCormack, Azubuike)- 183 possessions together- P/100 (Points Per 100 Possessions)- 103.3. Biggest stat that stood out about this lineup is the Turnover % 25.7 besides the terrible scoring numbers together.
Now to more glaring evidence to play the 4 guard lineup at least on offense.
Lineup (Dotson, Garrett, Agbaji, Moss, Azubuike)- 143 possessions together- Points Per 100 Poss.- 130.1. Only a 14% TO rate together. Note add Braun to this lineup and take Moss out in 45 possessions 135.5 P/100. Promising stuff.
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@BeddieKU23 But how does the P/100 in those lineups compare to the Bill Self “toughness” scale. That is all that Self talks about anymore. Toughness…I’m actually sick of it. I dont care how tough you are if you cant shoot.
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That speaks volumes.
It is helpful to see statistics support what we are seeing with our eyes. I know I didn’t realize it was so stark!
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Isn’t +/- everything?
We know what we see. 4/1.
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HighEliteMajor said:
Isn’t +/- everything?
We know what we see. 4/1.
Actually, it’s even more stark with individual ±. McCormack is dead last among the rotation players, and it’s not even close. He is +48 on the year. In contrast, Moss is +200 (with ~70 more minutes). Interestingly, Moss’ ± is ahead of Ochai - and with 200 fewer minutes.
Yes, DE is down some with Moss in the line-up compared to another big, but the OE is significantly higher, more than compensating…
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Speaking of Moss and the teams need for him this past offseason. Can anyone explain to me why the staff can’t identify shooters in High School especially ones that play 40 minutes from the KU campus? Spencer Jones a 6’7 freshman at Standford is 46/102(45%) from 3 this year. I don’t understand why they don’t take chances on shooters and teach them how to play team defense. I understand the need for great athletes but recruit one shooter a year, even if a marginal athlete, and you should have 1/2 rotational role-playing shooters every season.
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Well Jones did end up at Stanford so I think you have to take into account what role Academics played into him ending up there. As far his recruitment goes, I don’t remember KU ever sniffing at him.
He did address shooting in last years class with Braun/Wilson.
2020, Bryce Thompson says Hello. Jossell is known as a shooter. Muscadin is a project with range. Grant-Foster has a functional perimeter game.
I do agree though, shooting should absolutely be a big priority with each recruit going forward.
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Braun and Wilson were known as shooters. Wilson is a marginal athlete so quite literally the exact player you are hoping for. Braun was a better high school player than Jones and checks a lot of boxes.
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@BeddieKU23 not sure if Jossell ends up playing much for KU during his career but he can definitely stroke it.
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Yeah I have no idea what Jossell ends up doing here, he looks a likely red-shirt candidate next season. Just pointing out he can shoot it and its a big reason he’ll be here next season
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I’m thinking outside the box here…
Is it possible Self thinks it is easier to teach a defender how to shoot than teach a shooter how to defend?
Anytime I think about shooters and defense I think about BGreene. Svi started off bad at defense, too, but showed definite improvements, somewhat.
I know many shooters put no emphasis on defense… which is just plain shortsighted, especially if they think they can some day make a living playing ball.
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@drgnslayr in their defense, the NBA is about shooting not defense lol.
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Self is his presser today said this:
On starting 4 guards from the jump instead of starting McCormack;
“We know that us having our 5 most productive players on the floor is with Isaiah Moss in the lineup without Dave” however he cited “Dave brings a lot chemistry wise”.
Coach speak? Fools gold? Sure hope he’s right with the way he’s handling this. I’ve started to think this isn’t being handled correctly
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@BeddieKU23 You’re right. He’s not. He just answered the question. He knows it too. We all know it. Playing Doke and Dave together, but for a perfect match-up situation, is irrationality. He can’t give a logical reason to do so. If chemistry gives us the better +/-, fine. But it doesn’t (Saturday was an outlier).
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At this point I’m over Monday Morning Quarterbacking this decision. We all have to live with him starting Dave for better or worse. If there is something positive that comes out of this in a consistent manner at some point in the season I’ll gladly eat some crow. Statistically I don’t see chemistry being the reason its keeping this together.
What unintended consequence we may be seeing develop is more Isaiah at the expense of less Braun which you’ve already hit on before. Ideally we see more of both but the last few games are starting to trend the other way with that as Moss continues to play big minutes.
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Well, this is better than Self being a complete idiot. At least he knows. Maybe this is an ego massaging thing. We NEED Dave next year, he will be our starting 5.
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It is completely irrational to massage an “ego” (if that’s the reason) and compromise winning an NC this season.
Next season there’s a very reasonable chance we’re not in the tourney anyway. But forgetting that for a moment, it’s still completely irrational.
This is worse than many other instances where we question Self because he has admitted clearly the composition of our best lineup and scheme. His own words.
Let’s not think that “Self knows.” He admitted back a few years ago that he didn’t know. That our view of three point shooting was correct and he was wrong. Further, lack of FFs and NCs with consistent top 5 rosters would seem to indicate the man doesn’t have all the answers. We just went a full decade without a national championship and only sniffing it once (2012).
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For context KU has 3 national titles in the entire history of the NCAA. Winning one is better than HOF coach Williams was able to accomplish in 14 years. We all want more, but let’s not diminish what has been accomplished. Bill has proven he is good enough a coach with talent to win it all. This years talent isn’t that great, imagine Josh Jackson or Wiggins at the 4 spot - that would be a legit contender.
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HighEliteMajor said:
It is completely irrational to massage an “ego” (if that’s the reason) and compromise winning an NC this season.
Next season there’s a very reasonable chance we’re not in the tourney anyway. But forgetting that for a moment, it’s still completely irrational.
This is worse than many other instances where we question Self because he has admitted clearly the composition of our best lineup and scheme. His own words.
Let’s not think that “Self knows.” He admitted back a few years ago that he didn’t know. That our view of three point shooting was correct and he was wrong. Further, lack of FFs and NCs with consistent top 5 rosters would seem to indicate the man doesn’t have all the answers. We just went a full decade without a national championship and only sniffing it once (2012).
I got to say it man - - you just ride this Final four shit and Championship to death, you have been shown repeatedly, you act like Bill has the patent for not winning a National Championship with top 5 rosters and so on and so on and yada yada yada. So again I’ll say and ask - what the hell would you do if you were a Kentucky fan ? - -Cal has not won any more Championships then Self has during his tenure at Kansas.
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We do need Dave next yr, no question but I’ll throw this out there.
Would anyone want to see Agbaji running the point with his passing and decision making? Now take that and apply this to Dave trying to be a 4 man in this lineup next to Doke. Considering it all I give Dave respect for going out there and trying to be something he is not. The staff clearly felt Dave was one of the 5 best players to start the season and that he earned the starting spot. But now we are in the middle of the season with enough games, data and film to know Dave next to Doke is not working the way we all hoped it would. Its not a total disaster but isnt bringing the team closer to some higher level of play. It is what it is
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Since the year of 2008 : - -Kentucky has been in two National Champion Ship games. They have won ONE National Championship , in the year of 2012 against ? - - - KU. Since 2008 Kentucky has appeared in the final four , four times - - in 2011 , 2012 , 2014 & 2015
Since the year of 2008 :- - Kansas has been in two National Champion Ship games. They have won ONE National Champion Ship , in the year of 2008 against ? - - - Memphis. Since 2008 Kansas has appeared in the final four , three times - - in 2008 , 2012 & 2018
KU two title games starting in 2008 - -and 2018 . Kentucky two title games since 2008 - - -2012 - -and 2014
Yet people wanna bag on Coach Self , again they just don’t hand deliver these things to teams gift wrapped on a golden platter.
Hell if we wanna rant and cuss and holler about Self should be doing more with his talent. Then what the hell should they be saying or what if some people here were Kentucky fans , what would they be saying about Cal ?
You talk about Coach having the top 5 talent he has - - How many times since 2018 has Coach Self had or been ranked higher in the recruiting class over Kentucky’s class’s ? - - ZERO. - But yet same amount of Natty’s and they have a whooping ONE more whooping final four appearance , come on man.
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@jayballer73 Not sure why UK is your point of focus. Why not UNC or Duke? Or Nova? Well, we know why. At least with UK you have some argument. But that proves my point further. With UK you still lose.
If I was a UK fan I’d drive my car off a cliff. That’s what I’d do. But I’d sneak a peak at Ashley Jugs, er, Judd before doing that.
But really, first, I’d look at my eight rings. And then compare to KU’s three as noted above. KU has a touch more urgency to get up with the big boys in that most important arena.
Second, I’d realize that I won one in 2012, this past decade, while KU didn’t.
Third, I’d notice that I went to the FF in 2011, 2012, 2014, and 2015. KU went in 2012 and 2016 while Cal was coaching there.
Fourth, I’d notice that I sniffed the NC twice, winning one (Since Cal arrived). KU sniffed it once.
Fifth, I’d notice that Cal did what he did in six less seasons than Self.
Sixth, I’d notice that I didn’t get busted by the FBI, doing stupid texting, and then lying about it.
But I’d rather have Self than Cal. That’s not a discussion point for me. His lying related to the FBI has made me waver a bit on things though generally.
Obviously you see a factual statement or an slight as being that “people want to bag on Self.” I’ll bag on Self if I want to. Just the facts. And many facts weigh in Self’s favor.
Instead of responding like a fool and cursing, and claiming folks are “rant and cuss and holler” or whatever you tried to say, maybe remove your lips from Self’s backside and breath.
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@HighEliteMajor Pretty sure “massaging players’ egos” is a fairly large part of Self’s job. You can’t complain about “transfer u,” “not developing talent for next year,” and Self giving DM minutes. He’s not even getting huge minutes!
You have no way of knowing whether David or Moss will have more of an influence on this team winning a national championship. Can you honestly say Moss has a higher ceiling than David? Does Moss give us a better chance of winning games right now? Sure. But I thought that didn’t matter to you.
We’ve seen Mosses best game. He can make six threes and score 20 points. David can go for 28 and 10 and totally dominate a game. Is he doing that every night? No. But he can. He has the higher ceiling and needs to be getting minutes. I personally would rather they happen at the beginning of the game than the end but I can see it both ways.
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HighEliteMajor said:
If I was a UK fan I’d drive my car off a cliff. That’s what I’d do. But I’d sneak a peak at Ashley Jugs, er, Judd before doing that.
You could try being a decent human being…
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HighEliteMajor said:
@jayballer73 Not sure why UK is your point of focus. Why not UNC or Duke? Or Nova? Well, we know why. At least with UK you have some argument. But that proves my point further. With UK you still lose.
If I was a UK fan I’d drive my car off a cliff. That’s what I’d do. But I’d sneak a peak at Ashley Jugs, er, Judd before doing that.
But really, first, I’d look at my eight rings. And then compare to KU’s three as noted above. KU has a touch more urgency to get up with the big boys in that most important arena.
Second, I’d realize that I won one in 2012, this past decade, while KU didn’t.
Third, I’d notice that I went to the FF in 2011, 2012, 2014, and 2015. KU went in 2012 and 2016 while Cal was coaching there.
Fourth, I’d notice that I sniffed the NC twice, winning one (Since Cal arrived). KU sniffed it once.
Fifth, I’d notice that Cal did what he did in six less seasons than Self.
Sixth, I’d notice that I didn’t get busted by the FBI, doing stupid texting, and then lying about it.
But I’d rather have Self than Cal. That’s not a discussion point for me. His lying related to the FBI has made me waver a bit on things though generally.
Obviously you see a factual statement or an slight as being that “people want to bag on Self.” I’ll bag on Self if I want to. Just the facts. And many facts weigh in Self’s favor.
Instead of responding like a fool and cursing, and claiming folks are “rant and cuss and holler” or whatever you tried to say, maybe remove your lips from Self’s backside and breath.
you just really can’t hold a decent conversation huh? - -you truly are a piece of work. - -When someone steps on your toes your 1st response is talking about how someone is kissing someone’s ass - -mature - -real mature. But OFCOURSE your right - - -your always right - -how stupid of me, how dare I even suggest. - -Umm the reason I choose Kentucky , probably because they are the true blue bloods of all blue bloods - -Most wins of ANY program in NCAA history always among the Nations elite - -but silly me - hell I would know why - -I mean all I do is kiss Bill’s ass. - -by the way how many ass’s do you kiss? - just curious. - -I’m so glad you decided to turn this into a battle of insults now - - that’s truly what people want to see here. now I’m done so insult away , we know you can’t resist the temptation - It’s to bad you couldn’t respond back with some mature response , but I’m not gonna sit here and just let you start throwing insults about people kissing people’s ass - -fool , kissing ass lol - -look in the mirror , NO WAIT 2nd thought don’t I don’t want to be responsible for accidents -how about you breath. Ok go ahead I’m sure people all waiting your NEXT response , can’t wait. - -Myself I’m done. Cause like others say - -Stop before it starts - I’m moving on got to go kiss Bill’s ass roflmmfao
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@benshawks08 not gonna happen!
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@benshawks08 Oh, right, little leftists are offended when female anatomy is referenced or joked about. Save it for someone who cares.
@jayballer73 He doth protest too much, me thinks. You like to attack but when you get just a smidge back, even very subtly, you freak out like you’ve been shot. Thanks for the laugh.
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@HighEliteMajor I care! I care for my daughter-in-laws, Sisters, gdaughter, mom and my gals on here. The more you talk the more your true colors show. But, you don’t care. The list is growing.
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HighEliteMajor said:
@benshawks08 Oh, right, little leftists are offended when female anatomy is referenced or joked about. Save it for someone who cares.
@jayballer73 He doth protest too much, me thinks. You like to attack but when you get just a smidge back, even very subtly, you freak out like you’ve been shot. Thanks for the laugh.
try reading your own words - -you really want to keep doing this? – cause your borin me
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@HighEliteMajor Amazing that this is the moral high ground you stand atop looking down on others.
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kjayhawks said:
@drgnslayr in their defense, the NBA is about shooting not defense lol.
There is a lot to agree with you on that one. However the league isn’t completely stripped of defense.
I blame a lot of the soft defense on the long schedules. These guys play 100+ games a year if they make the playoffs. It’s too much ball.
If you watch the playoffs… they step up on defense because it takes defense to win titles.
I think the long seasons creates periods of soft play. Often the defense falls somewhere between an all-star game (no defense) and a playoff game (defense). These guys don’t want to bang for 100+ games. Too risky on the season and too risky on careers. Players take plays off and players take games off. Sometimes players take extended periods off. Some games are important, other games not so important.
Spring comes around and fans can expect to start seeing some big games. Conference battles tighten up and teams consider some games more as prep games for the playoffs. Sometimes they want to make a statement.
By the time June comes around, the play toughens up considerably and the game becomes more physical.
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Here’s the full quote from Self FYI.
“I’ve actually thought to myself about that. Well, the reason its been that way, like after even going into the OU game, is because we didn’t know we’d have Devon. Then even going into Texas, you know if you make a decision to start Isaiah instead of David, that’s fine. So you prepare for that, David’s out, I didn’t know how that would mess with his mind, and then (you could potentially) tell him Devon Can’t Play. Now Your Starting. So I thought it was best just to leave it status quo so you’re only messing with one guy, as opposed to messing with two. But Moving Forward…I’m not saying this will happen tomorrow, because I doubt it will. But we know that our five most productive players on the floor is with Isaiah in the lineup. We know that, with the other four starters. Stats, analytics, prove that out. But still though, even with that being said, I think there’s some things that David Brings, and from a chemistry standpoint, I think up until this point, it’s been best for us to go that way that we’ve been going, because you’re still going to have ample opportunities to have that other lineup on the floor. So that’s the primary reason, but its something that I think is fair, and I’ve actually thought quite a bit about.”
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Interesting article about Conference Title’s/Conference Tournament wins correlating to March Success
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Does anyone remember 07-08? If you were on message boards back then there was a “start Sherron over Russell” argument going. I was on the start Sherron side. The argument for Russell was not the same as David this year for Self, but similar. Not chemistry but Sr leadership and defense. Offensively when Sherron was in there that team was awesome. Now Self tended to adjust in-game to this and if you go back and watch the National Championship game Russell as a senior sat and watched as Sherron played the end of the 4th and the OT.
My point is Self has always shown loyalty to hustle/leaders/defensive guys but generally leans to the offense when we need it. As long as Moss doesnt fall deep into the rotation we should be fine.
It’s the old coach saying, “it isnt who starts the game, its who FINISHES it!”
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@BeddieKU23 that’s what I was gonna post lol. It’s really a silly argument, the four guard line up for Self has worked much better the past 5 years and it really isn’t a debate. In regards to Dave, he is a good player and should see double digit minutes every game but that doesn’t mean should always be on the floor. I think to this team turning a corner right now is Ochai, Braun and Moss being more aggressive. We know what are going to get outta most of the guys.
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If the team had more reliable shooters I don’t think this would be much of a debate.
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@benshawks08 No, I look down on leftists like you. The folks that have staked a claim to ruining this country.
@Crimsonorblue22 Oh, so because you have daughters, I can’t joke about women’s breasts. Tough darts.
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@HighEliteMajor No, you can’t claim the moral high ground and criticize the culture of a race of people and their mistreatment of women and then make jokes about women’s breasts. I mean you can. No one is stopping you. But it is hypocritical. That doesn’t seem to be an issue for you so keep at it. But I will continue to call it out when you do. And when you write racist rants and whenever else I want to write what I think, leftist, centrist, or rightist (? We don’t really have a word for that huh). I will continue to try my best to treat you and your ideas with respect and engage in good faith argument. I would argue that white supremacy is far more dangerous to our country and our souls than whatever you think leftism is. But you do you, man.
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@benshawks08 You can argue whatever you want. I don’t need a “good faith argument” with you. No scurry back and teach our youths to blame the evil white man for building the greatest nation the earth has ever known. An inspiring tale of blame, defeatism, and victimization I’m sure that you’ll teach. Run along now before I drop your britches and spank you bright red, little one. Meantime, I’ll be on the lookout for this huge outbreak of white supremacist violence (red herring to fit your pathetic narrative) that is allegedly so dangerous. Now, run along.
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@HighEliteMajor Classy. You sure the white man built it? Might check the history books to see who really did the labor and might while you’re there see how much they got paid for it.
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Late stage capitalism is to blame, not the “evil leftists”. The country did better when the wealthier paid higher taxes. Flat taxation is stupid.
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HighEliteMajor said:
@benshawks08 Run along now before I drop your britches and spank you bright red, little one.
A clear anti-violence response of a man who “values life.”
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@benshawks08 Your stupid responses are predictable. Run along little fella. Tough day tomorrow, you know, poisoning our youth. It’s everyone else’s fault.
And this country you hate, you know, saved the entire world from the the ultimate tyranny and totalitarianism. This country you hate rescued humanity from darkness.
