Who is our best PG at this moment?
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BeddieKU23 said:
Well neither may stick in the league but I’m going to remain optimistic.
I think there’s little chance Dotson doesn’t get drafted at least as a 2nd round pick. He’s been holding steady as a 2nd rounder since last year and the most recent update from ESPN (who have guys plugged into the league/GM’s) had him going 51st. He’s the leading scorer at Kansas. The last two PG’s that led their team in scoring both got drafted in the 2nd round (Mason, Graham). A lot of season left for him to elevate his profile.
I knew that Graham given the right circumstances - Charlotte is perfect, considering he is from North Carolina and they traded Kemba - could make it in the league, and Mason still can as well. I think that the Knicks, for example, could use a Frank Mason.
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BeddieKU23 said:
BShark said:
SR Dotson would likely be the single greatest guard season under Bill. We haven’t seen a trajectory like this at KU under Bill that I can recall. Outside of three point percentage his numbers aren’t that far off of SR Frank. Guessing some people don’t want to see it to hold out hope for him staying.
That’s saying a lot given the Sr year Mason had but its certainly possible given how advanced his role is compared to where Frank/Devonte were at this time. If he really did elevate his jump shot and play-making to the next level there’s no reason to think he wouldn’t be a rockstar. Given how much Frank/Devonte improved Jr/Sr year under this staff its not out of the question.
Imagine Jr Dotson, Sr Garrett, Jr Agbaji, Soph Braun, Jr McCormack in the starting 5… WoW
Not saying you are but for anyone wondering or thinking I’m super far off just directly compare Dotson this year to Frank’s SR year on sports reference. Now obviously Dotson could plateau and this is 99% a moot point anyway but it’s fun to think about.
Like @jayballer73 I don’t think Bryce is a bench player. Even in this situation I think Braun still comes off the bench.
Garrett Thompson Agbaji Braun Dave is still very good.
Tristan, Jalen, Mitch, Tyon and Harris off the bench too… That leaves a damn good player as the 10th guy aka never playing.
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BShark said:
BeddieKU23 said:
BShark said:
SR Dotson would likely be the single greatest guard season under Bill. We haven’t seen a trajectory like this at KU under Bill that I can recall. Outside of three point percentage his numbers aren’t that far off of SR Frank. Guessing some people don’t want to see it to hold out hope for him staying.
That’s saying a lot given the Sr year Mason had but its certainly possible given how advanced his role is compared to where Frank/Devonte were at this time. If he really did elevate his jump shot and play-making to the next level there’s no reason to think he wouldn’t be a rockstar. Given how much Frank/Devonte improved Jr/Sr year under this staff its not out of the question.
Imagine Jr Dotson, Sr Garrett, Jr Agbaji, Soph Braun, Jr McCormack in the starting 5… WoW
Not saying you are but for anyone wondering or thinking I’m super far off just directly compare Dotson this year to Frank’s SR year on sports reference. Now obviously Dotson could plateau and this is 99% a moot point anyway but it’s fun to think about.
Like @jayballer73 I don’t think Bryce is a bench player. Even in this situation I think Braun still comes off the bench.I
Garrett Thompson Agbaji Braun Dave is still very good.
That lineup is great, and don’t discount the other players that we have signed. You missed one though, Enaruna. He is going to be a stud.
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@Marco Tyon is a dog. The other two never see the floor for KU next year, maybe ever but both are fine to have signed.
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BShark said:
@Marco Tyon is a dog. The other two never see the floor for KU next year, maybe ever but both are fine to have signed.
I’m with you on Tyon, disagree on Muscadin though.
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jayballer73 said:
BeddieKU23 said:
BShark said:
SR Dotson would likely be the single greatest guard season under Bill. We haven’t seen a trajectory like this at KU under Bill that I can recall. Outside of three point percentage his numbers aren’t that far off of SR Frank. Guessing some people don’t want to see it to hold out hope for him staying.
That’s saying a lot given the Sr year Mason had but its certainly possible given how advanced his role is compared to where Frank/Devonte were at this time. If he really did elevate his jump shot and play-making to the next level there’s no reason to think he wouldn’t be a rockstar. Given how much Frank/Devonte improved Jr/Sr year under this staff its not out of the question.
Imagine Jr Dotson, Sr Garrett, Jr Agbaji, Soph Braun, Jr McCormack in the starting 5… WoW
How could we keep Bryce out of that lineup? - -I think he will be a starter from day one
Probably starts because its unlikely that 5 I listed above will be reality but he would make a great 6th man
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Anything is possible. I think he’d go down as one of the best if he did stay all 4 years. He’d have a chance at the top 5 in points scored and numerous awards that would get his name in the rafters. It’s fun to dream what could be.
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Maybe it was just on off day for Devon against WV, but I was really surprised to see him accept the shooter’s role in the second half and be content to let someone else handle the point guard duties. When Marcus or someone else was getting KU into its offense, I kept looking for Devon and saw he was just lurking on the perimeter, like Vick last year. I was disappointed not to see the dog come out for Devon. But, perhaps coach didn’t give him the chance to operate the point in the second half.
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stoptheflop said:
Maybe it was just on off day for Devon against WV, but I was really surprised to see him accept the shooter’s role in the second half and be content to let someone else handle the point guard duties. When Marcus or someone else was getting KU into its offense, I kept looking for Devon and saw he was just lurking on the perimeter, like Vick last year. I was disappointed not to see the dog come out for Devon. But, perhaps coach didn’t give him the chance to operate the point in the second half.
Firmly believe this was planned by Bill.
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Doke will not play in the NBA unless some team tries to go back to the old 90s style of 2 traditional lane clogging bigs. He is too awkward to be a rim runner on the pick and roll and is not a threat of a pick and pop. On top of that, he has no ability to guard outside of 5’. NBA is a spread out pick and roll and 3 point shooting league now.
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BigBad said:
Doke will not play in the NBA unless some team tries to go back to the old 90s style of 2 traditional lane clogging bigs. He is too awkward to be a rim runner on the pick and roll and is not a threat of a pick and pop. On top of that, he has no ability to guard outside of 5’. NBA is a spread out pick and roll and 3 point shooting league now.
pretty much what I’ve been saying. - -Doke is just out dated in the NBA.- -many more much more fluid big’s that can space the floor, has some game. - -Doke has no game other then being big and dunk. In todays NBA that just does not fit.
Don’t get me wrong , I love the guy , couldn’t be happier that we have him. Pretty good College player but afraid just not Todays NBA
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Doke will have a long pro career…
Overseas.
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Just to keep on the optimistic train here if your a NBA scout that evaluated Doke during the spring what were the things you would have wanted to see him improve this season. Let’s list a few.
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Rebounding
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Rim Protection
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Guarding the perimeter/in space
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Ability to play extended Minutes
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Improved body/finish a season healthy
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Shooting, extended range, FT’s.
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Post Game
Now 13 games in…
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Rebounding- Averaging a career best 8.9 boards. In a stretch where he’s averaging 11 per game.
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Rim Protection- Averaging a career best 2.2 blocks per game. Just had a career best 6 blocks against WVU.
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Guarding the Perimeter- Still a major weakness
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Playing Extended Minutes- Averaging a career best 26.8 minutes per game.
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Improved Body/staying healthy- Shed over 40 pounds coming into the season. So far so good on his health.
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Shooting- Major weakness. No range, still can’t shoot FT’s.
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Post Game- Still raw, probably the best Self has ever had at establishing position, driving his man up the paint and establishing where he wants to be to get his angles and Dunks.
Besides his obvious weaknesses of Shooting from anywhere outside 4 feet and being able to guard bigs out to the perimeter he’s improved everywhere else. The guy is going to break the NCAA record for FG% in a season and in a career. Analytically I’m wondering if a team is going to be intrigued by how effective he is around the basket. He’s making 87% of his shots at the rim. That’s not just above average, its borderline insane. I can see him being a backup C in the league somewhere, not heavy minutes but someone that gets in here and there. The NBA is a long season and guys get chances due to injuries and what not. He’s not going to magically stop dunking the ball on people in the league. Just some thoughts
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BShark said:
Doke will have a long pro career…
Overseas.
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BeddieKU23 said:
Just to keep on the optimistic train here if your a NBA scout that evaluated Doke during the spring what were the things you would have wanted to see him improve this season. Let’s list a few.
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Rebounding
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Rim Protection
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Guarding the perimeter/in space
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Ability to play extended Minutes
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Improved body/finish a season healthy
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Shooting, extended range, FT’s.
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Post Game
Now 13 games in…
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Rebounding- Averaging a career best 8.9 boards. In a stretch where he’s averaging 11 per game.
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Rim Protection- Averaging a career best 2.2 blocks per game. Just had a career best 6 blocks against WVU.
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Guarding the Perimeter- Still a major weakness
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Playing Extended Minutes- Averaging a career best 26.8 minutes per game.
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Improved Body/staying healthy- Shed over 40 pounds coming into the season. So far so good on his health.
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Shooting- Major weakness. No range, still can’t shoot FT’s.
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Post Game- Still raw, probably the best Self has ever had at establishing position, driving his man up the court and establishing where he wants to be to get his angles and Dunks.
Besides his obvious weaknesses of Shooting from anywhere outside 4 feet and being able to guard bigs out to the perimeter he’s improved everywhere else. The guy is going to break the NCAA record for FG% in a season and in a career. Analytically I’m wondering if a team is going to be intrigued by how effective he is around the basket. He’s making 87% of his shots at the rim. That’s not just above average, its borderline insane. I can see him being a backup C in the league somewhere, not heavy minutes but someone that gets in here and there. The NBA is a long season and guys get chances due to injuries and what not. He’s not going to magically stop dunking the ball on people in the league. Just some thoughts
somebody could takethat chance - - chances are like you say maybe developmental league - -end up being able some spot minutes.
Kind of hard to not have that kindof Pct when your doing nothing but dunk - -then again he isn’t going to be able to bully guys around for dunk after dunk in the NBA
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Dok would’ve dominated Ostertag. He’s just in the wrong era for his current skill set.
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ESPN has their latest Mock Draft update.
#40 Ochai Agbaji - down from mid 30’s he was in December.
#43 Devon Dotson- up 8 spots from 51, from same December update.
#97 Udoka Azubuike- Joins the Top 100 after being absent in all other updates.
Others in Big-12
Halliburton #4
Ramsey #25
Butler #46
Conditt #73
Likekele #75
Tshiebwe #76 (seems low)
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Yeah, kudos to ESPN for the #4 pick. hehehe
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@BeddieKU23 enjoyed your exposition on Doke. I agree that his effectiveness in the paint is freakish enough that he’s worthy of his own line of statistical reasoning that defies conventional 3 > 2 per possession logic. However that is only the case if he shoots FTs well. It’s the last piece to being extremely good at being a 2 point conversion expert. I don’t know the magic number in FT%.
But consider 70% means he makes both FTs 49% of the time. That’s my guess. 70%. He can obviously finish through contact as well.
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BeddieKU23 said:
Just to keep on the optimistic train here if your a NBA scout that evaluated Doke during the spring what were the things you would have wanted to see him improve this season. Let’s list a few.
-
Rebounding
-
Rim Protection
-
Guarding the perimeter/in space
-
Ability to play extended Minutes
-
Improved body/finish a season healthy
-
Shooting, extended range, FT’s.
-
Post Game
Now 13 games in…
-
Rebounding- Averaging a career best 8.9 boards. In a stretch where he’s averaging 11 per game.
-
Rim Protection- Averaging a career best 2.2 blocks per game. Just had a career best 6 blocks against WVU.
-
Guarding the Perimeter- Still a major weakness
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Playing Extended Minutes- Averaging a career best 26.8 minutes per game.
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Improved Body/staying healthy- Shed over 40 pounds coming into the season. So far so good on his health.
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Shooting- Major weakness. No range, still can’t shoot FT’s.
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Post Game- Still raw, probably the best Self has ever had at establishing position, driving his man up the paint and establishing where he wants to be to get his angles and Dunks.
Besides his obvious weaknesses of Shooting from anywhere outside 4 feet and being able to guard bigs out to the perimeter he’s improved everywhere else. The guy is going to break the NCAA record for FG% in a season and in a career. Analytically I’m wondering if a team is going to be intrigued by how effective he is around the basket. He’s making 87% of his shots at the rim. That’s not just above average, its borderline insane. I can see him being a backup C in the league somewhere, not heavy minutes but someone that gets in here and there. The NBA is a long season and guys get chances due to injuries and what not. He’s not going to magically stop dunking the ball on people in the league. Just some thoughts
I just worry that those two big weaknesses make him almost unplayable in the NBA. Let’s just compare to Joel Embiid (someone he’d likely be guarding at the 5 position). Embiid wasn’t canning threes at KU but his shooting form and progression showed potential to improve his range. Doke just hasn’t shown ANY of that.
I wonder if Doke is almost hampered by his own success. He’s so good at bullying people, getting position, and scoring in close at this level that it’s hard for him to even develop other skills. For KU this year, why would he do anything else? Dunk, dunk, baby hook, dunk, hook, GAME! What is even more concerning is most of those dunks and easy buckets are coming off lobs and passes over the top as he moves his man up the lane. He maybe has one or two times a game where we throw it to him in the post, he makes a move and scores, and when that happens if we are honest, it isn’t all that pretty most of the time. WV just leaned on his left shoulder and he didn’t have a counter.
Real question (meaning it’s a question I don’t have a good answer to): Would Doke have been better off in a different program that doesn’t focus so much on angles and team concepts to get easy buckets and instead gave him more license to develop individual skills?
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Another question: Would it help Doke’s stock if once every game he took a shot from the top of the key? I assume he would miss most of them, but just knowing he would get one a game, would that skill develop? If he made one or two could it get put on a highlight real and help his stock? Would a scout see it and think, “we can make that work”?
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approxinfinity said:
@BeddieKU23 enjoyed your exposition on Doke. I agree that his effectiveness in the paint is freakish enough that he’s worthy of his own line of statistical reasoning that defies conventional 3 > 2 per possession logic. However that is only the case if he shoots FTs well. It’s the last piece to being extremely good at being a 2 point conversion expert. I don’t know the magic number in FT%.
But consider 70% means he makes both FTs 49% of the time. That’s my guess. 70%. He can obviously finish through contact as well.
I hadn’t considered that aspect so thanks for including it. I know it’s probably a small chance he gets a chance at the NBA. I’ll probably look silly for being a homer here. He’ll basically be a 20 year old prospect with almost 2 1/4 seasons of experience under his belt (but 4 years removed from HS). I just keep thinking someone is going to see a prospect that still has some upside to develop given how little he’s actually played and had the time to fine-tune his game. He’ll test well at his position (height, wingspan, body fat) which accounts for something. I know he’s in the wrong era for his brand of ball. Holding out hope he catches on with a team in the Summer League and wiggles his way into a 2-way contract.
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@BeddieKU23 Just so we are clear, I hope that too! Love the kid! He’s a blast to watch and you can see every play how much he cares and tries.
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Some players ruin their game by trying to round it out instead of becoming elite at the one good thing they do. Dok is elite around the bucket. If he starts shooting jumpers his effectiveness will decline - that’s exactly what Wilt’s opponents wanted (shooting instead of dunking). The best thing Dok could do is work on free throws, since that’s his biggest limiting factor within his current skill set.
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BeddieKU23 said:
ESPN has their latest Mock Draft update.
#40 Ochai Agbaji - down from mid 30’s he was in December.
#43 Devon Dotson- up 8 spots from 51, from same December update.
#97 Udoka Azubuike- Joins the Top 100 after being absent in all other updates.
Others in Big-12
Halliburton #4
Ramsey #25
Butler #46
Conditt #73
Likekele #75
Tshiebwe #76 (seems low)
WOW , isn’t that a LITTLE HIGH for Halliburton ? - 4 ? - -I mean he a good player but dam seems a little much
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The game against KU was not indicative of how good he is. His size at the position, his passing and shooting ability are all why he is that high on boards. He is definitely nursing an injury right now. KU had an excellent game plan against him
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It’s not high for Haliburton. He’s a prototypical NBA guard. He’s gonna be in the league a looooong time.
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BeddieKU23 said:
The game against KU was not indicative of how good he is. His size at the position, his passing and shooting ability are all why he is that high on boards. He is definitely nursing an injury right now. KU had an excellent game plan against him
Oh I know he is good, wasn’t questioning his game against KU. - -I just think there is others that could probably fit that spot. - -I’m impressed BUT just not THAT impressed
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Everything you said probably will keep him out of the league. His weaknesses are not easily fixed, if they can be at all.
I know the NBA still has bigs in the league that are similar to him. If KU has a season we all hope and plays a key role in that success maybe he gets some attention from that. 4 guys from last yrs championship game got drafted. The last impression scouts get in that setting can be impactful. I know I’m being extremely optimistic here. I just think he is someone being undervalued for having an elite skill, he is every bit 7 ft and his wingspan will be one of the longest in the draft. We often talk of KU players not having the size they covet, well Doke is all that. Just lacks the skill. Will be interesting to see
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It’s a weak draft as it stands. Probably has something to do with him being that high.
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BeddieKU23 said:
It’s a weak draft as it stands. Probably has something to do with him being that high.
TURRIBLE DRAFT.
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BShark said:
It’s not high for Haliburton. He’s a prototypical NBA guard. He’s gonna be in the league a looooong time.
long time - - small version of a Ben Simmons type ?
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Concerning Doke and the league…
His selling points will have to be:
- He can run up and down and not die of exhaustion
- He can score at the rim at a 80%+ clip and attempts to score when isolated
- He can hit 70% FTs
- He can adequately guard the perimeter and the rim
- He is an above average rebounder
If he checks these boxes he will find several NBA teams interested.
We have seen the league change and everyone is shooting the trey, including the super bigs.
Doke can change that perspective if he can be unstoppable at the rim because what many teams are realizing is having a big who can shoot the trey but is not competitive %-wise with the guards actually creates a liability.
Having a center who is unstoppable in the post while isolated can force teams to try to help the post defender, hence is helping “spread the floor” by forcing defenses to mush in.
If Doke can also learn to be a better all around defender, the league always needs guys who can defend. Not every shot is a trey.
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@jayballer73 Much better shooter than Simmons. 44% trey ball on the year, just didn’t look like it against KU.
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Updated for 2-17-20
Ochai Agbaji #51 -Down 11 spots
Devon Dotson #47- Down 4 spots
Udoka Azubuike#88 Overall - Up 9 spots
Others in the Big-12
Halliburton #6
Ramsey #25
Butler #45
Tshiebwe #77
Likekele #98
Bane #99
