Who is our best PG at this moment?
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@dylans Devon is good. Great even, at times (Dayton), when his skillset is the answer to the game at hand (10 made shots inside the arc, 8-10 FT, 5 steals). But he isn’t consistently great (Frank POY year, Devonte runner up POY year), and he needs to be a better facilitator in games where we need him to pass.
Frank shot 47% from 3 his senior year, 5.2 to 2.4 TO ratio, Devon is shooting 30% from 3 this year, 4.4 to 2.6 assist to TO ratio. Devonte on the other hand had a 7.2 to 2.8 assist to TO ratio his senior year and shot 40% from 3, shooting 2 more on average than Frank, and we went to the FF. Marcus Garrett, by comparison, has a 4.3 to 1.5 assist to TO ratio, but also is a 30.4% 3pt shooter.
As it stands, I’d rather have the ball in Marcus’ hands, unless Devon becomes a better passer or 3pt shooter.
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I’m fine with alternating throughout the game, but in crunch time I want Marcus Iverson Garrett handling the ball.
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Marcus is just smarter. Dot is not a good jump shooter and his timing scares me. He needs to go left or right doesn’t finish well down the middle.
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approxinfinity said:
@dylans Devon is good. Great even, at times (Dayton), when his skillset is the answer to the game at hand (10 made shots inside the arc, 8-10 FT, 5 steals). But he isn’t consistently great (Frank POY year, Devonte runner up POY year), and he needs to be a better facilitator in games where we need him to pass.
Frank shot 47% from 3 his senior year, 5.2 to 2.4 TO ratio, Devon is shooting 30% from 3 this year, 4.4 to 2.6 assist to TO ratio. Devonte on the other hand had a 7.2 to 2.8 assist to TO ratio his senior year and shot 40% from 3, shooting 2 more on average than Frank, and we went to the FF. Marcus Garrett, by comparison, has a 4.3 to 1.5 assist to TO ratio, but also is a 30.4% 3pt shooter.
As it stands, I’d rather have the ball in Marcus’ hands, unless Devon becomes a better passer or 3pt shooter.
Quite frankly, this isn’t a fair comparison you’re making. Comparing sophomore Dotson to senior Mason and senior Graham isn’t fair to Dotson because those guys had 3 prior season’s in Bill Self’s system. Dotson has had 1 year entering this season.
A more fair comparison would be Mason and Graham’s sophomore season’s when they were at a similar development level. Even then, those aren’t totally fair comparisons either because Mason and Graham didn’t start and play the minutes as a freshman that Dotson did.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 true, he’s faster and finishes better than both of them. I’m not even comparing them. He also wants to leave after this year. My concern is that he seems to have dropped off a little, instead of improving.
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@Crimsonorblue22 I think the difference is this year, teams are keyed into to stopping Dotson as he’s viewed as the most dangerous player on the floor for KU because of his speed. Last year, Lawson was the focal point most of the season on offense so teams didn’t key on Dotson like they’re doing this year.
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Dotson was ahead of where Mason and Graham as a freshman but he played considerably more then they did. I expected a good jump from this season and it just hasn’t happened. It would be better to compare him an Aaron Miles since they both started from the get go. Aaron was great because he seldom forced shots and got everyone involved in the offense. Aaron only averaged 9 points as an upperclassman but only shot the ball 7 or 8 times a game. If he was forcing up twice as many shots as Dotson is, he probably would’ve averaged 4 or 5 more points. I think Dotson just needs to slow down a bit and look for others before he forces up a shot against 3 guys taller than him in the lane. If 3 guys are in front of you, someone is wide the hell open. I’d switch him to the 2 guard for a few stretches and see how it goes. Some guys shoot the ball better as an off guard, never know til you try. I personally think he’s a mid second rounder and has a fair chance to stay.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 I dont really think this about being fair. I’m not saying Devon doesn’t have a high ceiling. I’m trying to discuss just what is best for the team.
We have championship expectations. What puts us in the best position to win?
If the answer is that Devon can’t improve his 3pt shooting mid season or his assist to turnover ratio, then I think the answer is Marcus handling the ball more.
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The biggest jump Dotson could have made was becoming a better shooter, a more complete scorer. He still doesn’t have a midrange or floater and his jumpshot requires space to get off so he rarely takes contested 3s. That’s why it doesnt appear he has improved as much as we might have hoped but there is no doubt he is a better player then he was as a freshman. He is one the best guards as a sophomore that Self has ever had. He could be an All American. Big 12 POY and 1st team Big 12 player by end of conference play and the season
The biggest thing with him seems to be poise in crunch time and not getting sped up. We forget it’s his 2nd year because he has ran the show since day 1. I think his last 3 games have been average but if we know anything about Devon he is going to bounce back.
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Dotson has been a fair bit better with higher usage to boot. Not sure what some expected. He wasn’t going to morph into Steph.
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But the staff has made miracles with shooters in the past. I think knowing he wont be here 4 years has made the sense of urgency to be Devonte/Frank good now the expectation.
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@BShark he had more poise last yr, didn’t he? I think he’s really great, just expected improvement. Aren’t his #'s down?
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approxinfinity said:
@Texas-Hawk-10 I dont really think this about being fair. I’m not saying Devon doesn’t have a high ceiling. I’m trying to discuss just what is best for the team.
We have championship expectations. What puts us in the best position to win?
If the answer is that Devon can’t improve his 3pt shooting mid season or his assist to turnover ratio, then I think the answer is Marcus handling the ball more.
If this team wins a national title, it’s not going to be because of their offense, it’ll be the defense that carries the team.
Being real here, Mason and Graham had great numbers as seniors, and still couldn’t win a title so I’m not overly concerned with Dotson’s individual numbers. If you go look at the team that did win the title, their individual numbers weren’t mind blowing. Leading scorer at 13.3 ppg, leading rebounder at 6.7 rpg, assist leader had 4.3 apg (and wasn’t the lead guard that year). That team won because of their defense.
The 2012 Final Four team is a much closer comparison to this team however and that team wasn’t good offensively. Nobody on that team was a good shooter, Tyshawn was at 38% and the rest of the perimeter players shot a lot of 3’s were around 33%. That team also struggled big time with FT’s with only Withey over 70% among players that averaged more than 1 attempt per game. That team also had a PG who was very mistake prone and many wanted to strangle for most of the season. Kentucky was a great team that year that stopped KU, but there is no Kentucky type team this year so if this team gets hot in late February or March, they’ll have as a good a shot as anyone to cut the nets down in Atlanta this season.
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Crimsonorblue22 said:
@BShark he had more poise last yr, didn’t he? I think he’s really great, just expected improvement. Aren’t his #'s down?
His numbers are up across the board. Raw and advanced stats.
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Lots of ways to win a national title.
What is our best team?
To say our offense wont be the reason we win the NC because is silly because the converse has to be part of the discussion. The biggest thing standing in our way is our offense.
Our offense has to function at a higher level to win the NC.
This starts in my opinion with marginalizing McCormack. He’s not part of our “best team” when Doke’s on the floor. Use him solely as Doke’s backup.
Next, and most importantly, Agbaji has to be a go to guy. If he’s not, we’re pretenders. It’s that simple. He was atrocious yesterday offensively.
I do like the idea of Garrett having the ball more vs. Dotson when the two are on the floor together.
Another consideration is substantially limiting our low reward (vs risk) two point jumpers.
Only Dave and Doke shoot decent on two point jumpers (which are all two point shots not at the rim, thus those 3-4 footers count). The rest of our team is under 40%. Why shoot that when we shoot 35%+ from three?
To win the NC, I think we need our three point attempts to increase. But we need to get some consistency there game to game.
Braun is a big part of that. Clearly has surpassed Enaruna in Self’s eyes.
And, of course, we have to aggressively defend the line. Seems like we challenged the line much better yesterday.
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Question for you guys. In Self’s first season who brought the ball up? Miles was about as pass first as you can get. because there seems to be a trend of having the second option be Self’s pass first guard (finding the “third side”), how did that play out with Roy’s personnel and how far back did this philosophy for Self go? It did seem to be present even with Mario (and sherron) and Russ Robb and the pass first second guard.
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@HighEliteMajor I honestly think Dave will be the better player overall he just isn’t there yet. He has a better touch, quicker feet, and honestly tries harder. His hands aren’t as good and he is more mistake prone but I think his upside is way higher. I could actually see him in the NBA where with Doke I just don’t see it. I think we have to keep giving Dave minutes to develop and that’s what starting him does. He gets every game guaranteed time when the game is not do or die. I think it’s one of Self’s more innovative strategies for bringing a guy along.
Self knows if the game gets tight, he’s going to go with whoever he thinks gives him the best chance to win (see Christian Braun) but by keeping Big Dave as a starter self can assure Dave keeps a positive attitude and continues to grow. And if Dave is on, Self will let him go off. He had a huge game not to long ago and that can definitely happen again. But not if self gets too comfortable with the 4 guard, toughest guy, rotation and forgets to save enough minutes for Dave AND Silvio to keep them interested and fighting for playing time.
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@benshawks08 Do you mean Dave will be better than Dok?
Udoka just turned 20. Four months ago he was still a teenager. He has only played in 20 league games his whole college career, even though he’s a senior, because of injuries. He just recently learned how to grab a frickin’ rebound.
I think he’s still learning. His upside is still huge. He’s an athletic giant, still developing skills.
I do like Dave, but Dok is unusual, special, a real monster, and I think he still has way more in him.
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@tundrahok yeah I really do think Dave will be better than doke. Doke just hasn’t been able to develop any touch outside of 4 feet and he won’t be able to catch all those lobs in the NBA. Too many other monsters and super athletic bigs that can get just as high.
I’m confident Dave will develop a shot almost out to the three point line if not an actual 3 ball in the next 5 years. He has a great stroke from the free throw line and has been anxious to show his range a few games which means he sees them go in at practice.
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If you look at the games where KU has played good teams Dave has really struggled. Much of that could be playing out of position but it makes me wonder just how far away he still is from making the kind of impact Doke can give on a nightly basis. It will be interesting to see next year what Dave can do playing his more natural position and being asked to step into a bigger role and leader.
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I think Devon has taken a little hit on his confidence lately. Let’s hope this is the worst of his “dip.” Even knowing that, at times he still manages to drive to the rim and he is a solid finisher for his size and age.
I don’t think we go anywhere in March without Devon leading this team. Marcus is capable of being a pg, but he is more dangerous playing off the ball and attacking through certain sets. If we put Devon on the pine and replace with Marcus over an entire game I think it will be evident why both players are so important and at their current positions, with Marcus only sometimes stepping in for Devon or playing that second PG position when we need another ball handler in the backcourt.
There is a reason why little Devon is receiving looks from all the NBA scouts. As of now, unless we bring a trophy home in April, I still see Devon needing to come back another year. He just needs seasoning. He needs to play PG and lead a team at least one more year to better establish his footing. If he leaves too soon and gets shuffled around, he could always be a close miss in the league because he just hasn’t had the rock enough to workout his rough edges and still lacks that killer confidence needed in the league to run a team at PG.
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@BeddieKU23 Don’t get me wrong, doke is better right now and can dominate at this level like few others, I’m just saying big picture professionally Dave will have more options because he at least has functional shooting mechanics. Also that rebound he got at the end of the WV game was a big boy rebound. No way doke gets to that ball.
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I think Seth Greenburg making a pretty good point. He was talking at half time during the West Virginia and Oklahoma State game.
He was talking about how there is no dominant take over guy this year in College basketball. - -Talking about all these under class men declaring for the NBA.
Last 3 years 64 - - 79 - - 84 underclassmen declaring for the NBA. - he says you realize there is only 60 players drafted in two rounds - -so these guys declaring and then going un drafted. - - Saying you realize how much so and so how much more a particular team would of been if these guys would of came back for one more year.
Something to think about - - now you know it - -and I know it but how beneficial would it be for Devon to come back yet another year? - It’s not going to happen BUT would be a lot more beneficial for him cause he has not taken that step so far this season to declare. but chances are he will declare go un drafted and lose his final two years of eligibility in College and waste the talent he does have, - again look how many is declaring and how many get drafted - -not good ods. – ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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jayballer73 said:
I think Seth Greenburg making a pretty good point. He was talking at half time during the West Virginia and Oklahoma State game.
He was talking about how there is no dominant take over guy this year in College basketball. - -Talking about all these under class men declaring for the NBA.
Last 3 years 64 - - 79 - - 84 underclassmen declaring for the NBA. - he says you realize there is only 60 players drafted in two rounds - -so these guys declaring and then going un drafted. - - Saying you realize how much so and so how much more a particular team would of been if these guys would of came back for one more year.
Something to think about - - now you know it - -and I know it but how beneficial would it be for Devon to come back yet another year? - It’s not going to happen BUT would be a lot more beneficial for him cause he has not taken that step so far this season to declare. but chances are he will declare go un drafted and lose his final two years of eligibility in College and waste the talent he does have, - again look how many is declaring and how many get drafted - -not good ods. – ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
Dotson will probably leave after this season, and will - wait for it, wait for it - be an NBA bust. He should stay in school and graduate. I’m not saying that he is a terrible player, but he is not an NBA one either.
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Marco said:
jayballer73 said:
I think Seth Greenburg making a pretty good point. He was talking at half time during the West Virginia and Oklahoma State game.
He was talking about how there is no dominant take over guy this year in College basketball. - -Talking about all these under class men declaring for the NBA.
Last 3 years 64 - - 79 - - 84 underclassmen declaring for the NBA. - he says you realize there is only 60 players drafted in two rounds - -so these guys declaring and then going un drafted. - - Saying you realize how much so and so how much more a particular team would of been if these guys would of came back for one more year.
Something to think about - - now you know it - -and I know it but how beneficial would it be for Devon to come back yet another year? - It’s not going to happen BUT would be a lot more beneficial for him cause he has not taken that step so far this season to declare. but chances are he will declare go un drafted and lose his final two years of eligibility in College and waste the talent he does have, - again look how many is declaring and how many get drafted - -not good ods. – ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
Dotson will probably leave after this season, and will - wait for it, wait for it - be an NBA bust. He should stay in school and graduate.
YA, numbers don’t lie and less he picks up his games , he has area’s where he just has to get better he will go un drafted big mistake could help him coming back but we all know that’s not happening. - - ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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He has nothing to gain by coming back to Kansas.
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BShark said:
He has nothing to gain by coming back to Kansas.
You’re right, not if wanting to build draft stock. Will he be drafted? Yes. Will he be in the league? Not for long. I think he has actually hurt his stock by coming back this year. He doesn’t have an NBA game.
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And Then there is Devonte graham!
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BShark said:
He has nothing to gain by coming back to Kansas.
maybe - -but he sure the hell has got ALOT to lose by leaving - -we will not go drafted at THIS point if he doesn’t get it together. - he has not improved, if anything he has regressed - I mean it’s no sweat of my butt just bringing up what Seth was talking about. - -You figure the number of underclassmen declaring and then going un-drafted - - Devon right now is no better then so many of these others.
I mean we all know he isn’t coming back - big reason we have these other people , we already knew that before the season began, just feel sorry for the kid because he is just not making the steps that the NBA is looking for from him at this point.
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Crimsonorblue22 said:
And Then there is Devonte graham!
he IS NOT a Devonte Graham
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You can develop outside of college. His future is in pro basketball, NBA or not.
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He has absolutely not regressed. That’s wild talk. Does he have flaws of course he does. Mainly his jumper but he is better this year while taking on more offensive responsibility.
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BShark said:
He has absolutely not regressed. That’s wild talk.
I didn’t say that he regressed, but he hasn’t improved either. Therefore, he has hurt his stock.
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jayballer73 said:
BShark said:
He has nothing to gain by coming back to Kansas.
maybe - -but he sure the hell has got ALOT to lose by leaving - -we will not go drafted at THIS point if he doesn’t get it together. - he has not improved, if anything he has regressed - I mean it’s no sweat of my butt just bringing up what Seth was talking about. - -You figure the number of underclassmen declaring and then going un-drafted - - Devon right now is no better then so many of these others.
I mean we all know he isn’t coming back - big reason we have these other people , we already knew that before the season began, just feel sorry for the kid because he is just not making the steps that the NBA is looking for from him at this point.
I don’t get it either, @jayballer73. There are only so many professional spots available, even overseas where in many countries there are limits on the number of foreign players that each team can have.
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@Marco referring to jayballers line. Dotson not in terms of game but draft situation reminds me of Selden. I think he is a similar pick regardless of what year he leaves. It’s all about when he wants to start the pro grind. He does seem to genuinely love KU and is friends with Jalen. If we have a prayer at him returning those are good factors. I still think he is gone though.
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BShark said:
You can develop outside of college. His future is in pro basketball, NBA or not.
do you think he wants the - - NBA - - -or the NOT? - - oversea’s game is there ANYTIME if it’s there , why rush? - -huge risk but hey it’s his choice ,good for him
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@jayballer73 didn’t say that
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@jayballer73 everyone wants the NBA usually. People want to be the best at their craft. The incentive to leave after this year is to start getting paid (paid more?).
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BShark said:
He has absolutely not regressed. That’s wild talk. Does he have flaws of course he does. Mainly his jumper but he is better this year while taking on more offensive responsibility.
how his he better? – his outside J has not improved , his 3 pt shooting sucks - -and he is still loose with the ball, how is that improving if your wanting to play in the NBA ?
He can drive the ball, BUT there are dozens that can drive the ball in the NBA, his quickness in /College will be matched in the NBA - -so tell me where has he made the improvement that the NBA told him he needed to improve on, bottom line is he hasn’t
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BShark said:
@jayballer73 everyone wants the NBA usually. People want to be the best at their craft. The incentive to leave after this year is to start getting paid (paid more?).
did you happen to see where I said it was his choice ? - again not any sweat to me - -simply stating in the 1st place about Seth talking about underclassmen declaring and then going un drafted
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@jayballer73 you also said he has a lot to lose by leaving which is simply not true. He has nothing to lose and a lot to gain. Staying would honestly be foolish.
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BShark said:
@jayballer73 you also said he has a lot to lose by leaving which is simply not true. He has nothing to lose and a lot to gain. Staying would honestly be foolish.
well ya actually he does - -a really good chance from being drafted to not being drafted - - Have a good night
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BShark said:
@jayballer73 you also said he has a lot to lose by leaving which is simply not true. He has nothing to lose and a lot to gain. Staying would honestly be foolish.
Dotson is no longer projected to be drafted in 2020. I don’t think he’s grown a lot from last season and he would be very well served to return for his junior season at this point to improve his shooting.
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His draft stock will soar just like checks notes undrafted Selden, Ellis plus second round picks Mason, Graham and Svi.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 even if he is undraftable but wants to go pro now to work on his craft more frequently while getting paid I think that is a solid decision.
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jayballer73 said:
Crimsonorblue22 said:
And Then there is Devonte graham!
he IS NOT a Devonte Graham
Not yet. Devonte wasn’t Devonte in his second year. Couldn’t Dot improve similarly with another 2.5 seasons of seasoning?
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tundrahok said:
jayballer73 said:
Crimsonorblue22 said:
And Then there is Devonte graham!
he IS NOT a Devonte Graham
Not yet. Devonte wasn’t Devonte in his second year. Couldn’t Dot improve similarly with another 2.5 seasons of seasoning?
exactly the reason that it would be beneficial for him to come back. Just got to improve to enhance his chances for the NBA
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BShark said:
He has absolutely not regressed. That’s wild talk. Does he have flaws of course he does. Mainly his jumper but he is better this year while taking on more offensive responsibility.
Stats comparison:
Dot’s scoring is up, while shooting % is down, especially from 3. Assists and steals both up a fair bit.
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BShark said:
@Texas-Hawk-10 even if he is undraftable but wants to go pro now to work on his craft more frequently while getting paid I think that is a solid decision.
Unless Dotson landed in a top foreign league, he wouldn’t be making enough to justify leaving early.
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I never try to speak for Self, but it seems he has thought Devon will be gone after this year and he felt that right after Devon decided to return.
We have been experiencing chinks in Devon’s armor… and it mostly relates to his esteem. I think he will have a much easier path to making it in the league if he goes in there with a 100% killer mentality, robust with confidence. Anything short of that and there are dozens of quality, speedy ball handlers who are several inches taller.
Devon needs to take a page from VanVleet. Go in the league and start beating players down like you own them. Truly, it is the size of the fight in the dog instead of the size of the dog in the fight. Devon doesn’t have the girth of a VanVleet… but he is quicker. So he better stay quicker and learn to fight like a thicker dog. No Boys Allowed!
