Who is our best PG at this moment?
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@BShark he had more poise last yr, didn’t he? I think he’s really great, just expected improvement. Aren’t his #'s down?
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approxinfinity said:
@Texas-Hawk-10 I dont really think this about being fair. I’m not saying Devon doesn’t have a high ceiling. I’m trying to discuss just what is best for the team.
We have championship expectations. What puts us in the best position to win?
If the answer is that Devon can’t improve his 3pt shooting mid season or his assist to turnover ratio, then I think the answer is Marcus handling the ball more.
If this team wins a national title, it’s not going to be because of their offense, it’ll be the defense that carries the team.
Being real here, Mason and Graham had great numbers as seniors, and still couldn’t win a title so I’m not overly concerned with Dotson’s individual numbers. If you go look at the team that did win the title, their individual numbers weren’t mind blowing. Leading scorer at 13.3 ppg, leading rebounder at 6.7 rpg, assist leader had 4.3 apg (and wasn’t the lead guard that year). That team won because of their defense.
The 2012 Final Four team is a much closer comparison to this team however and that team wasn’t good offensively. Nobody on that team was a good shooter, Tyshawn was at 38% and the rest of the perimeter players shot a lot of 3’s were around 33%. That team also struggled big time with FT’s with only Withey over 70% among players that averaged more than 1 attempt per game. That team also had a PG who was very mistake prone and many wanted to strangle for most of the season. Kentucky was a great team that year that stopped KU, but there is no Kentucky type team this year so if this team gets hot in late February or March, they’ll have as a good a shot as anyone to cut the nets down in Atlanta this season.
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Crimsonorblue22 said:
@BShark he had more poise last yr, didn’t he? I think he’s really great, just expected improvement. Aren’t his #'s down?
His numbers are up across the board. Raw and advanced stats.
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Lots of ways to win a national title.
What is our best team?
To say our offense wont be the reason we win the NC because is silly because the converse has to be part of the discussion. The biggest thing standing in our way is our offense.
Our offense has to function at a higher level to win the NC.
This starts in my opinion with marginalizing McCormack. He’s not part of our “best team” when Doke’s on the floor. Use him solely as Doke’s backup.
Next, and most importantly, Agbaji has to be a go to guy. If he’s not, we’re pretenders. It’s that simple. He was atrocious yesterday offensively.
I do like the idea of Garrett having the ball more vs. Dotson when the two are on the floor together.
Another consideration is substantially limiting our low reward (vs risk) two point jumpers.
Only Dave and Doke shoot decent on two point jumpers (which are all two point shots not at the rim, thus those 3-4 footers count). The rest of our team is under 40%. Why shoot that when we shoot 35%+ from three?
To win the NC, I think we need our three point attempts to increase. But we need to get some consistency there game to game.
Braun is a big part of that. Clearly has surpassed Enaruna in Self’s eyes.
And, of course, we have to aggressively defend the line. Seems like we challenged the line much better yesterday.
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Question for you guys. In Self’s first season who brought the ball up? Miles was about as pass first as you can get. because there seems to be a trend of having the second option be Self’s pass first guard (finding the “third side”), how did that play out with Roy’s personnel and how far back did this philosophy for Self go? It did seem to be present even with Mario (and sherron) and Russ Robb and the pass first second guard.
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@HighEliteMajor I honestly think Dave will be the better player overall he just isn’t there yet. He has a better touch, quicker feet, and honestly tries harder. His hands aren’t as good and he is more mistake prone but I think his upside is way higher. I could actually see him in the NBA where with Doke I just don’t see it. I think we have to keep giving Dave minutes to develop and that’s what starting him does. He gets every game guaranteed time when the game is not do or die. I think it’s one of Self’s more innovative strategies for bringing a guy along.
Self knows if the game gets tight, he’s going to go with whoever he thinks gives him the best chance to win (see Christian Braun) but by keeping Big Dave as a starter self can assure Dave keeps a positive attitude and continues to grow. And if Dave is on, Self will let him go off. He had a huge game not to long ago and that can definitely happen again. But not if self gets too comfortable with the 4 guard, toughest guy, rotation and forgets to save enough minutes for Dave AND Silvio to keep them interested and fighting for playing time.
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@benshawks08 Do you mean Dave will be better than Dok?
Udoka just turned 20. Four months ago he was still a teenager. He has only played in 20 league games his whole college career, even though he’s a senior, because of injuries. He just recently learned how to grab a frickin’ rebound.
I think he’s still learning. His upside is still huge. He’s an athletic giant, still developing skills.
I do like Dave, but Dok is unusual, special, a real monster, and I think he still has way more in him.
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@tundrahok yeah I really do think Dave will be better than doke. Doke just hasn’t been able to develop any touch outside of 4 feet and he won’t be able to catch all those lobs in the NBA. Too many other monsters and super athletic bigs that can get just as high.
I’m confident Dave will develop a shot almost out to the three point line if not an actual 3 ball in the next 5 years. He has a great stroke from the free throw line and has been anxious to show his range a few games which means he sees them go in at practice.
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If you look at the games where KU has played good teams Dave has really struggled. Much of that could be playing out of position but it makes me wonder just how far away he still is from making the kind of impact Doke can give on a nightly basis. It will be interesting to see next year what Dave can do playing his more natural position and being asked to step into a bigger role and leader.
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I think Devon has taken a little hit on his confidence lately. Let’s hope this is the worst of his “dip.” Even knowing that, at times he still manages to drive to the rim and he is a solid finisher for his size and age.
I don’t think we go anywhere in March without Devon leading this team. Marcus is capable of being a pg, but he is more dangerous playing off the ball and attacking through certain sets. If we put Devon on the pine and replace with Marcus over an entire game I think it will be evident why both players are so important and at their current positions, with Marcus only sometimes stepping in for Devon or playing that second PG position when we need another ball handler in the backcourt.
There is a reason why little Devon is receiving looks from all the NBA scouts. As of now, unless we bring a trophy home in April, I still see Devon needing to come back another year. He just needs seasoning. He needs to play PG and lead a team at least one more year to better establish his footing. If he leaves too soon and gets shuffled around, he could always be a close miss in the league because he just hasn’t had the rock enough to workout his rough edges and still lacks that killer confidence needed in the league to run a team at PG.
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@BeddieKU23 Don’t get me wrong, doke is better right now and can dominate at this level like few others, I’m just saying big picture professionally Dave will have more options because he at least has functional shooting mechanics. Also that rebound he got at the end of the WV game was a big boy rebound. No way doke gets to that ball.
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I think Seth Greenburg making a pretty good point. He was talking at half time during the West Virginia and Oklahoma State game.
He was talking about how there is no dominant take over guy this year in College basketball. - -Talking about all these under class men declaring for the NBA.
Last 3 years 64 - - 79 - - 84 underclassmen declaring for the NBA. - he says you realize there is only 60 players drafted in two rounds - -so these guys declaring and then going un drafted. - - Saying you realize how much so and so how much more a particular team would of been if these guys would of came back for one more year.
Something to think about - - now you know it - -and I know it but how beneficial would it be for Devon to come back yet another year? - It’s not going to happen BUT would be a lot more beneficial for him cause he has not taken that step so far this season to declare. but chances are he will declare go un drafted and lose his final two years of eligibility in College and waste the talent he does have, - again look how many is declaring and how many get drafted - -not good ods. – ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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jayballer73 said:
I think Seth Greenburg making a pretty good point. He was talking at half time during the West Virginia and Oklahoma State game.
He was talking about how there is no dominant take over guy this year in College basketball. - -Talking about all these under class men declaring for the NBA.
Last 3 years 64 - - 79 - - 84 underclassmen declaring for the NBA. - he says you realize there is only 60 players drafted in two rounds - -so these guys declaring and then going un drafted. - - Saying you realize how much so and so how much more a particular team would of been if these guys would of came back for one more year.
Something to think about - - now you know it - -and I know it but how beneficial would it be for Devon to come back yet another year? - It’s not going to happen BUT would be a lot more beneficial for him cause he has not taken that step so far this season to declare. but chances are he will declare go un drafted and lose his final two years of eligibility in College and waste the talent he does have, - again look how many is declaring and how many get drafted - -not good ods. – ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
Dotson will probably leave after this season, and will - wait for it, wait for it - be an NBA bust. He should stay in school and graduate. I’m not saying that he is a terrible player, but he is not an NBA one either.
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Marco said:
jayballer73 said:
I think Seth Greenburg making a pretty good point. He was talking at half time during the West Virginia and Oklahoma State game.
He was talking about how there is no dominant take over guy this year in College basketball. - -Talking about all these under class men declaring for the NBA.
Last 3 years 64 - - 79 - - 84 underclassmen declaring for the NBA. - he says you realize there is only 60 players drafted in two rounds - -so these guys declaring and then going un drafted. - - Saying you realize how much so and so how much more a particular team would of been if these guys would of came back for one more year.
Something to think about - - now you know it - -and I know it but how beneficial would it be for Devon to come back yet another year? - It’s not going to happen BUT would be a lot more beneficial for him cause he has not taken that step so far this season to declare. but chances are he will declare go un drafted and lose his final two years of eligibility in College and waste the talent he does have, - again look how many is declaring and how many get drafted - -not good ods. – ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
Dotson will probably leave after this season, and will - wait for it, wait for it - be an NBA bust. He should stay in school and graduate.
YA, numbers don’t lie and less he picks up his games , he has area’s where he just has to get better he will go un drafted big mistake could help him coming back but we all know that’s not happening. - - ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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He has nothing to gain by coming back to Kansas.
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BShark said:
He has nothing to gain by coming back to Kansas.
You’re right, not if wanting to build draft stock. Will he be drafted? Yes. Will he be in the league? Not for long. I think he has actually hurt his stock by coming back this year. He doesn’t have an NBA game.
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And Then there is Devonte graham!
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BShark said:
He has nothing to gain by coming back to Kansas.
maybe - -but he sure the hell has got ALOT to lose by leaving - -we will not go drafted at THIS point if he doesn’t get it together. - he has not improved, if anything he has regressed - I mean it’s no sweat of my butt just bringing up what Seth was talking about. - -You figure the number of underclassmen declaring and then going un-drafted - - Devon right now is no better then so many of these others.
I mean we all know he isn’t coming back - big reason we have these other people , we already knew that before the season began, just feel sorry for the kid because he is just not making the steps that the NBA is looking for from him at this point.
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Crimsonorblue22 said:
And Then there is Devonte graham!
he IS NOT a Devonte Graham
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You can develop outside of college. His future is in pro basketball, NBA or not.
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He has absolutely not regressed. That’s wild talk. Does he have flaws of course he does. Mainly his jumper but he is better this year while taking on more offensive responsibility.
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BShark said:
He has absolutely not regressed. That’s wild talk.
I didn’t say that he regressed, but he hasn’t improved either. Therefore, he has hurt his stock.
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jayballer73 said:
BShark said:
He has nothing to gain by coming back to Kansas.
maybe - -but he sure the hell has got ALOT to lose by leaving - -we will not go drafted at THIS point if he doesn’t get it together. - he has not improved, if anything he has regressed - I mean it’s no sweat of my butt just bringing up what Seth was talking about. - -You figure the number of underclassmen declaring and then going un-drafted - - Devon right now is no better then so many of these others.
I mean we all know he isn’t coming back - big reason we have these other people , we already knew that before the season began, just feel sorry for the kid because he is just not making the steps that the NBA is looking for from him at this point.
I don’t get it either, @jayballer73. There are only so many professional spots available, even overseas where in many countries there are limits on the number of foreign players that each team can have.
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@Marco referring to jayballers line. Dotson not in terms of game but draft situation reminds me of Selden. I think he is a similar pick regardless of what year he leaves. It’s all about when he wants to start the pro grind. He does seem to genuinely love KU and is friends with Jalen. If we have a prayer at him returning those are good factors. I still think he is gone though.
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BShark said:
You can develop outside of college. His future is in pro basketball, NBA or not.
do you think he wants the - - NBA - - -or the NOT? - - oversea’s game is there ANYTIME if it’s there , why rush? - -huge risk but hey it’s his choice ,good for him
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@jayballer73 didn’t say that
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@jayballer73 everyone wants the NBA usually. People want to be the best at their craft. The incentive to leave after this year is to start getting paid (paid more?).
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BShark said:
He has absolutely not regressed. That’s wild talk. Does he have flaws of course he does. Mainly his jumper but he is better this year while taking on more offensive responsibility.
how his he better? – his outside J has not improved , his 3 pt shooting sucks - -and he is still loose with the ball, how is that improving if your wanting to play in the NBA ?
He can drive the ball, BUT there are dozens that can drive the ball in the NBA, his quickness in /College will be matched in the NBA - -so tell me where has he made the improvement that the NBA told him he needed to improve on, bottom line is he hasn’t
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BShark said:
@jayballer73 everyone wants the NBA usually. People want to be the best at their craft. The incentive to leave after this year is to start getting paid (paid more?).
did you happen to see where I said it was his choice ? - again not any sweat to me - -simply stating in the 1st place about Seth talking about underclassmen declaring and then going un drafted
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@jayballer73 you also said he has a lot to lose by leaving which is simply not true. He has nothing to lose and a lot to gain. Staying would honestly be foolish.
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BShark said:
@jayballer73 you also said he has a lot to lose by leaving which is simply not true. He has nothing to lose and a lot to gain. Staying would honestly be foolish.
well ya actually he does - -a really good chance from being drafted to not being drafted - - Have a good night
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BShark said:
@jayballer73 you also said he has a lot to lose by leaving which is simply not true. He has nothing to lose and a lot to gain. Staying would honestly be foolish.
Dotson is no longer projected to be drafted in 2020. I don’t think he’s grown a lot from last season and he would be very well served to return for his junior season at this point to improve his shooting.
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His draft stock will soar just like checks notes undrafted Selden, Ellis plus second round picks Mason, Graham and Svi.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 even if he is undraftable but wants to go pro now to work on his craft more frequently while getting paid I think that is a solid decision.
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jayballer73 said:
Crimsonorblue22 said:
And Then there is Devonte graham!
he IS NOT a Devonte Graham
Not yet. Devonte wasn’t Devonte in his second year. Couldn’t Dot improve similarly with another 2.5 seasons of seasoning?
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tundrahok said:
jayballer73 said:
Crimsonorblue22 said:
And Then there is Devonte graham!
he IS NOT a Devonte Graham
Not yet. Devonte wasn’t Devonte in his second year. Couldn’t Dot improve similarly with another 2.5 seasons of seasoning?
exactly the reason that it would be beneficial for him to come back. Just got to improve to enhance his chances for the NBA
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BShark said:
He has absolutely not regressed. That’s wild talk. Does he have flaws of course he does. Mainly his jumper but he is better this year while taking on more offensive responsibility.
Stats comparison:
Dot’s scoring is up, while shooting % is down, especially from 3. Assists and steals both up a fair bit.
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BShark said:
@Texas-Hawk-10 even if he is undraftable but wants to go pro now to work on his craft more frequently while getting paid I think that is a solid decision.
Unless Dotson landed in a top foreign league, he wouldn’t be making enough to justify leaving early.
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I never try to speak for Self, but it seems he has thought Devon will be gone after this year and he felt that right after Devon decided to return.
We have been experiencing chinks in Devon’s armor… and it mostly relates to his esteem. I think he will have a much easier path to making it in the league if he goes in there with a 100% killer mentality, robust with confidence. Anything short of that and there are dozens of quality, speedy ball handlers who are several inches taller.
Devon needs to take a page from VanVleet. Go in the league and start beating players down like you own them. Truly, it is the size of the fight in the dog instead of the size of the dog in the fight. Devon doesn’t have the girth of a VanVleet… but he is quicker. So he better stay quicker and learn to fight like a thicker dog. No Boys Allowed!
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@tundrahok that’s what I meant, thx. Look what 4 yrs did to DG! I’ve heard that mentioned during his games too.
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I’m still on the fence with Dave at the next level but as with any Hawk I’m always hoping they make it. I saw him in person a few weeks ago against UMKC and he was terrific but I need to see him have those games against Power 5 teams. He will flash like that rebound & dunk in the WVU game but consistency has still been an issue with him when we face good teams.
Don’t get me wrong I’m a big fan of his and he’ll be here 4 years so next year and the following year he will have the opportunity to prove what kind of professional career he might have. His improved shooting touch helps him tremendously. That should continue to be a point of emphasis for him as he gets older. If he could expand his range out to the 3 point line and show that range later in his career that could really give him some looks from the NBA. I think he can lose another 5-10 pounds without sacrificing much, he’s a big boy out there but I do think his ability to defend and his athleticism has another level he can get to carrying a little bit less weight. He’s made a remarkable transformation of his body since High School and I think he’ll continue to refine his body with the new S&C coach.
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Dotson leads the Big-12 in scoring.
Leads the Big-12 in FT’s (made and attempts)
Top 5 in assists (5th) and steals (2nd) per game.
His usage is up over 7% from last year, his PER is up 7 points from last season and he’s playing 35 minutes a night (3rd most in the league).
Has he improved enough to be a 1st round pick? Unlikely at this point. A 40% 3 point shot would maybe entice some teams at the bottom of the 1st but at his size his ceiling was always limited.
We’ll welcome him back with open arms if he did decide to stay another year. He’d be the best player in College Basketball next season.
He might end up 1st team All Big-12, Big-12 POY, 1st team All American and potentially lead this team to a National Championship. What will be said if all that happens?
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BeddieKU23 said:
Dotson leads the Big-12 in scoring.
Leads the Big-12 in FT’s (made and attempts)
Top 5 in assists (5th) and steals (2nd) per game.
His usage is up over 7% from last year, his PER is up 7 points from last season and he’s playing 35 minutes a night (3rd most in the league).
Has he improved enough to be a 1st round pick? Unlikely at this point. A 40% 3 point shot would maybe entice some teams at the bottom of the 1st but at his size his ceiling was always limited.
We’ll welcome him back with open arms if he did decide to stay another year. He’d be the best player in College Basketball next season.
He might end up 1st team All Big-12, Big-12 POY, 1st team All American and potentially lead this team to a National Championship. What will be said if all that happens?
that will mean he has picked his game up from where it is at right now.
All of what you say sounds good - -BUT none of what you said has anything to do with what the NBA scouts told him he needed to work and improve on. - -His outside J is still very suspect at best , he can’t create his own shot from the outside. - If you notice when he shoots his three it’s sit up to where he is wide open and he has time to set his feet, even then look at his 3 point %. - -The NBA has told him he has to get better with his outside J , he was told he needed to work on taking care of the ball - -he hasn’t improved there. He can’t just try and believe he is going to make a living on driving the ball in the NBA as has been mention there are many many players just as quick in the NBA as Devon.
As Far as the things you mentioned above, Frank Mason accomplished all those things - -look where he is at. - Nothing of much at this point, - Devon is NOT improved in the things that he was told he needed to do if he wanted to succeed and have a meaningful path to the NBA
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There isn’t a one size fits all answer when it comes to the NBA. If his plan is to leave after the season, best of luck to the young man.
Dotson is struggling shooting the 3, most of College Basketball is struggling adjusting to the new line. He’s also playing 35 minutes a game and defending at a high level.
Agbaji is struggling to shoot the 3 just as much as Dotson is recently. I believe he’s 4-19 in the last 5 games.
Despite the shooting numbers being lower Dotson’s Efficiency is way up this season from a year ago. Kenpom has him as one of the 5 best players in all of College Basketball.
Did you know that Udoka Azubuike has just as many turnovers as Devon Dotson in over 100 less minutes of playing time?
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Did Frank and Devonte help themselves or hurt themselves by staying at KU for 4 years? I do not believe they would have been better off by leaving after their Soph. or Jr. year. And plus they got a diploma. Devon is in the same situation at this time in his life. Also, think how many assist he could have by passing to Tyon and Bryce, instead of his receivers now.
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There is an easy resolution here for Devon. He should go bring us home a trophy in April to reassure this year is the best time for him to move on to the league. That will solve any question on if he is ready.
What has to be considered with Devon and whether he should go… a big part of his game is like Frank Mason… finishing at the hole. That takes a toll on his body and Devon isn’t built as thick as Frank. I wonder how many times a game Devon ends a play on the floor? It would be interesting to get a “floor count” on Devon every game. That would give us additional perspective concerning his risk.
Let’s say Devon stays all 4 years and continues to increase his aggression to the hole. Won’t he have a good chance of getting hurt?
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@BeddieKU23 Great information. Really puts it all in perspective. Look, I don’t get upset at my TV anymore. Tyshawn Taylor is not our point guard (he had his shining moment, though, second half of his senior season). All is good. Mason, Graham, Dotson. Never a complaint from me. I just think to myself, “remember TT.” Like a roller coaster.
@Big-Clyde52 Great question – they definitely helped themselves. Without one doubt in my mind.
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BeddieKU23 said:
There isn’t a one size fits all answer when it comes to the NBA. If his plan is to leave after the season, best of luck to the young man.
Dotson is struggling shooting the 3, most of College Basketball is struggling adjusting to the new line. He’s also playing 35 minutes a game and defending at a high level.
Agbaji is struggling to shoot the 3 just as much as Dotson is recently. I believe he’s 4-19 in the last 5 games.
Despite the shooting numbers being lower Dotson’s Efficiency is way up this season from a year ago. Kenpom has him as one of the 5 best players in all of College Basketball.
Did you know that Udoka Azubuike has just as many turnovers as Devon Dotson in over 100 less minutes of playing time?
Understand. - - I also understand that Doke is ALSO not destined for the NBA. - -had this discussion multiple times, Doke is a relic of NBA past - -really good imposing college player, just doesn’t translate to NBA. your big’s in the Modern NBA can step out like JO Jo and others be able to hit that 15-17 foot jumper, big’s who can defend out on the floor - - open space. - The NBA just doesn’t have room for guys that that all they do is Dunk - doesn’t work in the NBA. - -Doke is another guy that will not be drafted, we have seen better players then Doke, players more mobile that have went un-drafted. - -Doke future is oversea’s - players like him are now a thing of the past in the NBA - you have to have some kind of offense other then /Dunks
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Big Clyde52 said:
Did Frank and Devonte help themselves or hurt themselves by staying at KU for 4 years? I do not believe they would have been better off by leaving after their Soph. or Jr. year. And plus they got a diploma. Devon is in the same situation at this time in his life. Also, think how many assist he could have by passing to Tyon and Bryce, instead of his receivers now.
Agree , you have some here that say he has nothing to gain , that coming back would be silly. - - Like you said , maybe he won’t improve by coming back - -but he can continue to work on his degree while coming back for another year. Basketball doesn’t last forever.
You will have those that will try and say well that he can always come back and get his degree later. -That doesn’t work , in reality I bet you the one’s who never come back and get their degree compared to the one’s that do is far greater, that THEY DON’T. - Devon has a lot to gain , also gives him the chance to continue to just be that young College kid.
Be able to gain the experience of College before he enters the work field. - -Believe it or not NBA is a job just like any other job , only he is getting to do what he likes to do at that time. He still has a chance to improve his game – maybe /possibly get to a point where he can get drafted. - I agree with you 100 % Big Clyde
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drgnslayr said:
There is an easy resolution here for Devon. He should go bring us home a trophy in April to reassure this year is the best time for him to move on to the league. That will solve any question on if he is ready.
What has to be considered with Devon and whether he should go… a big part of his game is like Frank Mason… finishing at the hole. That takes a toll on his body and Devon isn’t built as thick as Frank. I wonder how many times a game Devon ends a play on the floor? It would be interesting to get a “floor count” on Devon every game. That would give us additional perspective concerning his risk.
Let’s say Devon stays all 4 years and continues to increase his aggression to the hole. Won’t he have a good chance of getting hurt?
ya has that chance. -About as good a chance of getting hurt in staying 4 years- just like about the same chance of getting hurt the 1st time he takes or tries to take it to the hole and Devon not being very thick as you say and get hurt - maybe hurt bad enough to end his brief NBA career. - -Could you imagine him going to the hole with his frame as you say and Jo Jo coming down on him? – Karl Anthony Towns coming down on him - - Lebron coming down on him? - -that could be a very ugly picture. - Or any big that from the NBA , that’s got that NBA body - - -not good
