Who is our best PG at this moment?
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Crimsonorblue22 said:
And Then there is Devonte graham!
he IS NOT a Devonte Graham
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You can develop outside of college. His future is in pro basketball, NBA or not.
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He has absolutely not regressed. That’s wild talk. Does he have flaws of course he does. Mainly his jumper but he is better this year while taking on more offensive responsibility.
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BShark said:
He has absolutely not regressed. That’s wild talk.
I didn’t say that he regressed, but he hasn’t improved either. Therefore, he has hurt his stock.
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jayballer73 said:
BShark said:
He has nothing to gain by coming back to Kansas.
maybe - -but he sure the hell has got ALOT to lose by leaving - -we will not go drafted at THIS point if he doesn’t get it together. - he has not improved, if anything he has regressed - I mean it’s no sweat of my butt just bringing up what Seth was talking about. - -You figure the number of underclassmen declaring and then going un-drafted - - Devon right now is no better then so many of these others.
I mean we all know he isn’t coming back - big reason we have these other people , we already knew that before the season began, just feel sorry for the kid because he is just not making the steps that the NBA is looking for from him at this point.
I don’t get it either, @jayballer73. There are only so many professional spots available, even overseas where in many countries there are limits on the number of foreign players that each team can have.
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@Marco referring to jayballers line. Dotson not in terms of game but draft situation reminds me of Selden. I think he is a similar pick regardless of what year he leaves. It’s all about when he wants to start the pro grind. He does seem to genuinely love KU and is friends with Jalen. If we have a prayer at him returning those are good factors. I still think he is gone though.
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BShark said:
You can develop outside of college. His future is in pro basketball, NBA or not.
do you think he wants the - - NBA - - -or the NOT? - - oversea’s game is there ANYTIME if it’s there , why rush? - -huge risk but hey it’s his choice ,good for him
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@jayballer73 didn’t say that
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@jayballer73 everyone wants the NBA usually. People want to be the best at their craft. The incentive to leave after this year is to start getting paid (paid more?).
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BShark said:
He has absolutely not regressed. That’s wild talk. Does he have flaws of course he does. Mainly his jumper but he is better this year while taking on more offensive responsibility.
how his he better? – his outside J has not improved , his 3 pt shooting sucks - -and he is still loose with the ball, how is that improving if your wanting to play in the NBA ?
He can drive the ball, BUT there are dozens that can drive the ball in the NBA, his quickness in /College will be matched in the NBA - -so tell me where has he made the improvement that the NBA told him he needed to improve on, bottom line is he hasn’t
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BShark said:
@jayballer73 everyone wants the NBA usually. People want to be the best at their craft. The incentive to leave after this year is to start getting paid (paid more?).
did you happen to see where I said it was his choice ? - again not any sweat to me - -simply stating in the 1st place about Seth talking about underclassmen declaring and then going un drafted
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@jayballer73 you also said he has a lot to lose by leaving which is simply not true. He has nothing to lose and a lot to gain. Staying would honestly be foolish.
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BShark said:
@jayballer73 you also said he has a lot to lose by leaving which is simply not true. He has nothing to lose and a lot to gain. Staying would honestly be foolish.
well ya actually he does - -a really good chance from being drafted to not being drafted - - Have a good night
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BShark said:
@jayballer73 you also said he has a lot to lose by leaving which is simply not true. He has nothing to lose and a lot to gain. Staying would honestly be foolish.
Dotson is no longer projected to be drafted in 2020. I don’t think he’s grown a lot from last season and he would be very well served to return for his junior season at this point to improve his shooting.
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His draft stock will soar just like checks notes undrafted Selden, Ellis plus second round picks Mason, Graham and Svi.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 even if he is undraftable but wants to go pro now to work on his craft more frequently while getting paid I think that is a solid decision.
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jayballer73 said:
Crimsonorblue22 said:
And Then there is Devonte graham!
he IS NOT a Devonte Graham
Not yet. Devonte wasn’t Devonte in his second year. Couldn’t Dot improve similarly with another 2.5 seasons of seasoning?
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tundrahok said:
jayballer73 said:
Crimsonorblue22 said:
And Then there is Devonte graham!
he IS NOT a Devonte Graham
Not yet. Devonte wasn’t Devonte in his second year. Couldn’t Dot improve similarly with another 2.5 seasons of seasoning?
exactly the reason that it would be beneficial for him to come back. Just got to improve to enhance his chances for the NBA
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BShark said:
He has absolutely not regressed. That’s wild talk. Does he have flaws of course he does. Mainly his jumper but he is better this year while taking on more offensive responsibility.
Stats comparison:
Dot’s scoring is up, while shooting % is down, especially from 3. Assists and steals both up a fair bit.
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BShark said:
@Texas-Hawk-10 even if he is undraftable but wants to go pro now to work on his craft more frequently while getting paid I think that is a solid decision.
Unless Dotson landed in a top foreign league, he wouldn’t be making enough to justify leaving early.
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I never try to speak for Self, but it seems he has thought Devon will be gone after this year and he felt that right after Devon decided to return.
We have been experiencing chinks in Devon’s armor… and it mostly relates to his esteem. I think he will have a much easier path to making it in the league if he goes in there with a 100% killer mentality, robust with confidence. Anything short of that and there are dozens of quality, speedy ball handlers who are several inches taller.
Devon needs to take a page from VanVleet. Go in the league and start beating players down like you own them. Truly, it is the size of the fight in the dog instead of the size of the dog in the fight. Devon doesn’t have the girth of a VanVleet… but he is quicker. So he better stay quicker and learn to fight like a thicker dog. No Boys Allowed!
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@tundrahok that’s what I meant, thx. Look what 4 yrs did to DG! I’ve heard that mentioned during his games too.
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I’m still on the fence with Dave at the next level but as with any Hawk I’m always hoping they make it. I saw him in person a few weeks ago against UMKC and he was terrific but I need to see him have those games against Power 5 teams. He will flash like that rebound & dunk in the WVU game but consistency has still been an issue with him when we face good teams.
Don’t get me wrong I’m a big fan of his and he’ll be here 4 years so next year and the following year he will have the opportunity to prove what kind of professional career he might have. His improved shooting touch helps him tremendously. That should continue to be a point of emphasis for him as he gets older. If he could expand his range out to the 3 point line and show that range later in his career that could really give him some looks from the NBA. I think he can lose another 5-10 pounds without sacrificing much, he’s a big boy out there but I do think his ability to defend and his athleticism has another level he can get to carrying a little bit less weight. He’s made a remarkable transformation of his body since High School and I think he’ll continue to refine his body with the new S&C coach.
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Dotson leads the Big-12 in scoring.
Leads the Big-12 in FT’s (made and attempts)
Top 5 in assists (5th) and steals (2nd) per game.
His usage is up over 7% from last year, his PER is up 7 points from last season and he’s playing 35 minutes a night (3rd most in the league).
Has he improved enough to be a 1st round pick? Unlikely at this point. A 40% 3 point shot would maybe entice some teams at the bottom of the 1st but at his size his ceiling was always limited.
We’ll welcome him back with open arms if he did decide to stay another year. He’d be the best player in College Basketball next season.
He might end up 1st team All Big-12, Big-12 POY, 1st team All American and potentially lead this team to a National Championship. What will be said if all that happens?
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BeddieKU23 said:
Dotson leads the Big-12 in scoring.
Leads the Big-12 in FT’s (made and attempts)
Top 5 in assists (5th) and steals (2nd) per game.
His usage is up over 7% from last year, his PER is up 7 points from last season and he’s playing 35 minutes a night (3rd most in the league).
Has he improved enough to be a 1st round pick? Unlikely at this point. A 40% 3 point shot would maybe entice some teams at the bottom of the 1st but at his size his ceiling was always limited.
We’ll welcome him back with open arms if he did decide to stay another year. He’d be the best player in College Basketball next season.
He might end up 1st team All Big-12, Big-12 POY, 1st team All American and potentially lead this team to a National Championship. What will be said if all that happens?
that will mean he has picked his game up from where it is at right now.
All of what you say sounds good - -BUT none of what you said has anything to do with what the NBA scouts told him he needed to work and improve on. - -His outside J is still very suspect at best , he can’t create his own shot from the outside. - If you notice when he shoots his three it’s sit up to where he is wide open and he has time to set his feet, even then look at his 3 point %. - -The NBA has told him he has to get better with his outside J , he was told he needed to work on taking care of the ball - -he hasn’t improved there. He can’t just try and believe he is going to make a living on driving the ball in the NBA as has been mention there are many many players just as quick in the NBA as Devon.
As Far as the things you mentioned above, Frank Mason accomplished all those things - -look where he is at. - Nothing of much at this point, - Devon is NOT improved in the things that he was told he needed to do if he wanted to succeed and have a meaningful path to the NBA
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There isn’t a one size fits all answer when it comes to the NBA. If his plan is to leave after the season, best of luck to the young man.
Dotson is struggling shooting the 3, most of College Basketball is struggling adjusting to the new line. He’s also playing 35 minutes a game and defending at a high level.
Agbaji is struggling to shoot the 3 just as much as Dotson is recently. I believe he’s 4-19 in the last 5 games.
Despite the shooting numbers being lower Dotson’s Efficiency is way up this season from a year ago. Kenpom has him as one of the 5 best players in all of College Basketball.
Did you know that Udoka Azubuike has just as many turnovers as Devon Dotson in over 100 less minutes of playing time?
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Did Frank and Devonte help themselves or hurt themselves by staying at KU for 4 years? I do not believe they would have been better off by leaving after their Soph. or Jr. year. And plus they got a diploma. Devon is in the same situation at this time in his life. Also, think how many assist he could have by passing to Tyon and Bryce, instead of his receivers now.
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There is an easy resolution here for Devon. He should go bring us home a trophy in April to reassure this year is the best time for him to move on to the league. That will solve any question on if he is ready.
What has to be considered with Devon and whether he should go… a big part of his game is like Frank Mason… finishing at the hole. That takes a toll on his body and Devon isn’t built as thick as Frank. I wonder how many times a game Devon ends a play on the floor? It would be interesting to get a “floor count” on Devon every game. That would give us additional perspective concerning his risk.
Let’s say Devon stays all 4 years and continues to increase his aggression to the hole. Won’t he have a good chance of getting hurt?
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@BeddieKU23 Great information. Really puts it all in perspective. Look, I don’t get upset at my TV anymore. Tyshawn Taylor is not our point guard (he had his shining moment, though, second half of his senior season). All is good. Mason, Graham, Dotson. Never a complaint from me. I just think to myself, “remember TT.” Like a roller coaster.
@Big-Clyde52 Great question – they definitely helped themselves. Without one doubt in my mind.
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BeddieKU23 said:
There isn’t a one size fits all answer when it comes to the NBA. If his plan is to leave after the season, best of luck to the young man.
Dotson is struggling shooting the 3, most of College Basketball is struggling adjusting to the new line. He’s also playing 35 minutes a game and defending at a high level.
Agbaji is struggling to shoot the 3 just as much as Dotson is recently. I believe he’s 4-19 in the last 5 games.
Despite the shooting numbers being lower Dotson’s Efficiency is way up this season from a year ago. Kenpom has him as one of the 5 best players in all of College Basketball.
Did you know that Udoka Azubuike has just as many turnovers as Devon Dotson in over 100 less minutes of playing time?
Understand. - - I also understand that Doke is ALSO not destined for the NBA. - -had this discussion multiple times, Doke is a relic of NBA past - -really good imposing college player, just doesn’t translate to NBA. your big’s in the Modern NBA can step out like JO Jo and others be able to hit that 15-17 foot jumper, big’s who can defend out on the floor - - open space. - The NBA just doesn’t have room for guys that that all they do is Dunk - doesn’t work in the NBA. - -Doke is another guy that will not be drafted, we have seen better players then Doke, players more mobile that have went un-drafted. - -Doke future is oversea’s - players like him are now a thing of the past in the NBA - you have to have some kind of offense other then /Dunks
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Big Clyde52 said:
Did Frank and Devonte help themselves or hurt themselves by staying at KU for 4 years? I do not believe they would have been better off by leaving after their Soph. or Jr. year. And plus they got a diploma. Devon is in the same situation at this time in his life. Also, think how many assist he could have by passing to Tyon and Bryce, instead of his receivers now.
Agree , you have some here that say he has nothing to gain , that coming back would be silly. - - Like you said , maybe he won’t improve by coming back - -but he can continue to work on his degree while coming back for another year. Basketball doesn’t last forever.
You will have those that will try and say well that he can always come back and get his degree later. -That doesn’t work , in reality I bet you the one’s who never come back and get their degree compared to the one’s that do is far greater, that THEY DON’T. - Devon has a lot to gain , also gives him the chance to continue to just be that young College kid.
Be able to gain the experience of College before he enters the work field. - -Believe it or not NBA is a job just like any other job , only he is getting to do what he likes to do at that time. He still has a chance to improve his game – maybe /possibly get to a point where he can get drafted. - I agree with you 100 % Big Clyde
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drgnslayr said:
There is an easy resolution here for Devon. He should go bring us home a trophy in April to reassure this year is the best time for him to move on to the league. That will solve any question on if he is ready.
What has to be considered with Devon and whether he should go… a big part of his game is like Frank Mason… finishing at the hole. That takes a toll on his body and Devon isn’t built as thick as Frank. I wonder how many times a game Devon ends a play on the floor? It would be interesting to get a “floor count” on Devon every game. That would give us additional perspective concerning his risk.
Let’s say Devon stays all 4 years and continues to increase his aggression to the hole. Won’t he have a good chance of getting hurt?
ya has that chance. -About as good a chance of getting hurt in staying 4 years- just like about the same chance of getting hurt the 1st time he takes or tries to take it to the hole and Devon not being very thick as you say and get hurt - maybe hurt bad enough to end his brief NBA career. - -Could you imagine him going to the hole with his frame as you say and Jo Jo coming down on him? – Karl Anthony Towns coming down on him - - Lebron coming down on him? - -that could be a very ugly picture. - Or any big that from the NBA , that’s got that NBA body - - -not good
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I wouldn’t count out Doke just yet. Although I think its a longshot I can see him making a G-League team and someone taking a chance on developing him. You can’t teach his size. He’s only 20 years old. Not saying he’ll be drafted but I do think he’ll get a look or two from someone intrigued with him.
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BeddieKU23 said:
I wouldn’t count out Doke just yet. Although I think its a longshot I can see him making a G-League team and someone taking a chance on developing him. You can’t teach his size. He’s only 20 years old. Not saying he’ll be drafted but I do think he’ll get a look or two from someone intrigued with him.
Agreed. He might be able to find some team that might be willing , I just don’t believe he will be that fit, yet on the other hand yes he does have his size and rebounds well - -another question that comes into play would be stamina - -can he maintain the NBA pace up and down the floor - just seems like a long shot. - -Never say never I reckon
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I’d bet money Doke gets drafted, size isn’t coachable and he’s slimmed down making him quicker, better at shot blocking. He goes early in the second round.
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jayballer73 said:
BeddieKU23 said:
I wouldn’t count out Doke just yet. Although I think its a longshot I can see him making a G-League team and someone taking a chance on developing him. You can’t teach his size. He’s only 20 years old. Not saying he’ll be drafted but I do think he’ll get a look or two from someone intrigued with him.
Agreed. He might be able to find some team that might be willing , I just don’t believe he will be that fit, yet on the other hand yes he does have his size and rebounds well - -another question that comes into play would be stamina - -can he maintain the NBA pace up and down the floor - just seems like a long shot. - -Never say never I reckon
I can’t imagine he’ll become a starter in the NBA by any means which would require him to be asked to play big minutes. I don’t see that for him. He’s just so big and has a freakish wingspan that physically and athletically he fits at the next level. I can see a team stashing him in the G-League and finding out what they can do to improve his skill level. I think since he’s still young there is upside to taking a shot. Who knows I’m probably wrong here but I’m always optimistic a Jayhawk gets a shot. It’s incredible seeing what Devonte is doing this year!
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tundrahok said:
jayballer73 said:
Crimsonorblue22 said:
And Then there is Devonte graham!
he IS NOT a Devonte Graham
Not yet. Devonte wasn’t Devonte in his second year. Couldn’t Dot improve similarly with another 2.5 seasons of seasoning?
He doesn’t have the size or game of Devonte, and never will.
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BeddieKU23 said:
I wouldn’t count out Doke just yet. Although I think its a longshot I can see him making a G-League team and someone taking a chance on developing him. You can’t teach his size. He’s only 20 years old. Not saying he’ll be drafted but I do think he’ll get a look or two from someone intrigued with him.
Dok is a great college player, and I hope that he gets his degree - he will not be an NBA player nor will Dotson. The players now on our roster who have a chance to be in the NBA : Agbaji, Enaruna, Braun and Harris.
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@Marco Dot may be the quickest player in college basketball and possibly the quickest player self has ever had that’s got to count for something
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SR Dotson would likely be the single greatest guard season under Bill. We haven’t seen a trajectory like this at KU under Bill that I can recall. Outside of three point percentage his numbers aren’t that far off of SR Frank. Guessing some people don’t want to see it to hold out hope for him staying.
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approxinfinity said:
@Marco Dot may be the quickest player in college basketball and possibly the quickest player self has ever had that’s got to count for something
quick is good, BUT your transiting from College, that quickness will help some but not like College. - -LOT’S of quickness in the NBA. - -He has to develop a consistent J to improve his chances of making it. right now he doesn’t have that
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Well neither may stick in the league but I’m going to remain optimistic.
I think there’s little chance Dotson doesn’t get drafted at least as a 2nd round pick. He’s been holding steady as a 2nd rounder since last year and the most recent update from ESPN (who have guys plugged into the league/GM’s) had him going 51st. He’s the leading scorer at Kansas. The last two PG’s that led their team in scoring both got drafted in the 2nd round (Mason, Graham). A lot of season left for him to elevate his profile.
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BShark said:
SR Dotson would likely be the single greatest guard season under Bill. We haven’t seen a trajectory like this at KU under Bill that I can recall. Outside of three point percentage his numbers aren’t that far off of SR Frank. Guessing some people don’t want to see it to hold out hope for him staying.
That’s saying a lot given the Sr year Mason had but its certainly possible given how advanced his role is compared to where Frank/Devonte were at this time. If he really did elevate his jump shot and play-making to the next level there’s no reason to think he wouldn’t be a rockstar. Given how much Frank/Devonte improved Jr/Sr year under this staff its not out of the question.
Imagine Jr Dotson, Sr Garrett, Jr Agbaji, Soph Braun, Jr McCormack in the starting 5… WoW
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BeddieKU23 said:
BShark said:
SR Dotson would likely be the single greatest guard season under Bill. We haven’t seen a trajectory like this at KU under Bill that I can recall. Outside of three point percentage his numbers aren’t that far off of SR Frank. Guessing some people don’t want to see it to hold out hope for him staying.
That’s saying a lot given the Sr year Mason had but its certainly possible given how advanced his role is compared to where Frank/Devonte were at this time. If he really did elevate his jump shot and play-making to the next level there’s no reason to think he wouldn’t be a rockstar. Given how much Frank/Devonte improved Jr/Sr year under this staff its not out of the question.
Imagine Jr Dotson, Sr Garrett, Jr Agbaji, Soph Braun, Jr McCormack in the starting 5… WoW
How could we keep Bryce out of that lineup? - -I think he will be a starter from day one
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BeddieKU23 said:
Well neither may stick in the league but I’m going to remain optimistic.
I think there’s little chance Dotson doesn’t get drafted at least as a 2nd round pick. He’s been holding steady as a 2nd rounder since last year and the most recent update from ESPN (who have guys plugged into the league/GM’s) had him going 51st. He’s the leading scorer at Kansas. The last two PG’s that led their team in scoring both got drafted in the 2nd round (Mason, Graham). A lot of season left for him to elevate his profile.
I knew that Graham given the right circumstances - Charlotte is perfect, considering he is from North Carolina and they traded Kemba - could make it in the league, and Mason still can as well. I think that the Knicks, for example, could use a Frank Mason.
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BeddieKU23 said:
BShark said:
SR Dotson would likely be the single greatest guard season under Bill. We haven’t seen a trajectory like this at KU under Bill that I can recall. Outside of three point percentage his numbers aren’t that far off of SR Frank. Guessing some people don’t want to see it to hold out hope for him staying.
That’s saying a lot given the Sr year Mason had but its certainly possible given how advanced his role is compared to where Frank/Devonte were at this time. If he really did elevate his jump shot and play-making to the next level there’s no reason to think he wouldn’t be a rockstar. Given how much Frank/Devonte improved Jr/Sr year under this staff its not out of the question.
Imagine Jr Dotson, Sr Garrett, Jr Agbaji, Soph Braun, Jr McCormack in the starting 5… WoW
Not saying you are but for anyone wondering or thinking I’m super far off just directly compare Dotson this year to Frank’s SR year on sports reference. Now obviously Dotson could plateau and this is 99% a moot point anyway but it’s fun to think about.
Like @jayballer73 I don’t think Bryce is a bench player. Even in this situation I think Braun still comes off the bench.
Garrett Thompson Agbaji Braun Dave is still very good.
Tristan, Jalen, Mitch, Tyon and Harris off the bench too… That leaves a damn good player as the 10th guy aka never playing.
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BShark said:
BeddieKU23 said:
BShark said:
SR Dotson would likely be the single greatest guard season under Bill. We haven’t seen a trajectory like this at KU under Bill that I can recall. Outside of three point percentage his numbers aren’t that far off of SR Frank. Guessing some people don’t want to see it to hold out hope for him staying.
That’s saying a lot given the Sr year Mason had but its certainly possible given how advanced his role is compared to where Frank/Devonte were at this time. If he really did elevate his jump shot and play-making to the next level there’s no reason to think he wouldn’t be a rockstar. Given how much Frank/Devonte improved Jr/Sr year under this staff its not out of the question.
Imagine Jr Dotson, Sr Garrett, Jr Agbaji, Soph Braun, Jr McCormack in the starting 5… WoW
Not saying you are but for anyone wondering or thinking I’m super far off just directly compare Dotson this year to Frank’s SR year on sports reference. Now obviously Dotson could plateau and this is 99% a moot point anyway but it’s fun to think about.
Like @jayballer73 I don’t think Bryce is a bench player. Even in this situation I think Braun still comes off the bench.I
Garrett Thompson Agbaji Braun Dave is still very good.
That lineup is great, and don’t discount the other players that we have signed. You missed one though, Enaruna. He is going to be a stud.
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@Marco Tyon is a dog. The other two never see the floor for KU next year, maybe ever but both are fine to have signed.
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BShark said:
@Marco Tyon is a dog. The other two never see the floor for KU next year, maybe ever but both are fine to have signed.
I’m with you on Tyon, disagree on Muscadin though.
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jayballer73 said:
BeddieKU23 said:
BShark said:
SR Dotson would likely be the single greatest guard season under Bill. We haven’t seen a trajectory like this at KU under Bill that I can recall. Outside of three point percentage his numbers aren’t that far off of SR Frank. Guessing some people don’t want to see it to hold out hope for him staying.
That’s saying a lot given the Sr year Mason had but its certainly possible given how advanced his role is compared to where Frank/Devonte were at this time. If he really did elevate his jump shot and play-making to the next level there’s no reason to think he wouldn’t be a rockstar. Given how much Frank/Devonte improved Jr/Sr year under this staff its not out of the question.
Imagine Jr Dotson, Sr Garrett, Jr Agbaji, Soph Braun, Jr McCormack in the starting 5… WoW
How could we keep Bryce out of that lineup? - -I think he will be a starter from day one
Probably starts because its unlikely that 5 I listed above will be reality but he would make a great 6th man
