Will Bill Self be the KU coach after 2017?
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@nuleafjhawk Roy took our Jayhawks to the Elite 8 5 times in 15 years. Bill has taken us to the Elite 8 5 times in 11 years. I know Roy made it to the Final 4 more times (so far) but I think Bill is doing ok and stacks up pretty well and has a few more years to improve on Roy’s post-season resume at KU.
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@joeloveshawks I really have no complaints about Bill (well, I do, but I’ll address those in a sec…) and today I wouldn’t trade him for anyone else.
My point was that Roy was a very good tournament coach. In his time at Kansas, he lost to a #7, a #8 and a #9. Those were considered BAD losses at the time. He also got beat by five #1 seeds. Self has lost to a #14, #13, #11, #10 and #9. He’s only lost to a #1 seed once. Other than the 2008 team (objectively, we won that game on luck - we were down 9 with a minute and a half to go and made a long 3 pointer to send it to - OT. That’s from memory, not wikipedia)
Self is obviously a great coach. He’s lost, what?, 10 games at home in 11 years. We all know about “The Streak”. Anybody that’s calling for his head is, well, an idiot. But he does need to change some things. Or have better luck during the tournament.
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@nuleafjhawk I agree, man. I really do. Bill is stubborn and could certainly change some things “in game” in the tourney. Having some luck would also help. As good as Kentucky and UCONN have looked in the tournament they have both needed a few breaks to be playing tonight.
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Don’t forget about recruiting. You have to have good players to win. I have always read that Self’s greatest strengths are his people skills…making the recruits, and their families believe that KU is the right place and he is the right coach for them. I know some of us may think that because we are Kansas, that players will automatically come here…to an extent yes…but don’t underestimate Self’s recruiting skills.
In that sense, especially this year, he has been somewhat of a victim of his own strength…expectations were so high because of this freshmen class. And as it turned out, the best of the lot did not play during the short period of time when the success of a team is (apparently ! ) judged by many people.
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I don’t see Self being fired from KU. We’ve had a lot worse coaches that we would never fire. I’m not sure we’ve had many (if any) better coaches. I guess we could argue Brown was better… maybe because he was smart enough to leave quickly.
There are two kinds of criticism… construction and destructive.
How people take criticism is another thing. Some just want to leave. Slide everything under the rug. Never face the challenge in hopes to better themselves. Others stick around but live in denial. Another form of shoving it under the rug. Running like the ones who leave, but just do it internally. And then there are those who take on criticisms and try to defeat them with a fight. Challenge those who criticize and challenge their points in hopes of “winning the argument.” Then, last, there are those who meet the criticisms. Take the time to make sure they understand what they are. Then try to see if there is some validity to them by keeping an open mind and reduced ego. Then try to learn from criticisms and view them as an opportunity to grow. Then take a new path to resolve issues brought from those criticisms.
The people who become the best at what they do fit in that last category. No one is perfect and never will be. Life is full of challenges, and if the challenges stop, so does the growth.
It is tough to compete and win in certain areas… like college basketball in March. Excluding the NIT, we only pick one winner. So the other 400 ± schools fail. No matter how much effort and skill is involved, luck plays a part of that. Anyone can get hot and anyone can get cold. But over a long span of time, we do see tendencies… patterns start to appear. A few programs seem to shine more than others.
Is it all about the coach? Might other factors be involved? Administration? School history and reputation? Location? Media? Perceptions? Strategy? Conference?
I think we can make this as complicated as we want.
Seriously… can anyone see us firing Self while he owns a historic conference championship streak? Seems absurd. But there could be reasons for dismissal… like allegations arise that has the potential to tarnish the reputation of the school. Things like that…
So if Self doesn’t get fired… might he leave by taking a job somewhere else? Sure he could. Will he? I certainly have my doubts for the immediate future.
Can we become proficient in March with Self? Sure we can. But it does seem like changes will have to happen. People aren’t challenging Self’s abilities in March just over this past lemon performance. This has been coming. We have underachieved most of the time in March under Self… most fans will admit that. It isn’t just our fans having unrealistic expectations… we have fallen to some crummy lower seeds many times now. Stanford was not a quality opponent. The media fluffed them up but come on…
So if change needs to happen, will Self be willing to change? And if so, what needs to change? It is easy for us to quarterback from the sidelines. None of us can say with complete certainty we have answers. But many of us have been in competitive basketball for many decades and we see signs that seem to tell us plenty.
For me… it really isn’t 100% about winning or losing. What does count for 100% with me is bringing our best shot to every game in March. Coming prepared, being motivated, hustle hustle hustle, stay focused. I know nerves get in the way. I can understand when teams sometimes come out stiff. But basketball is what they do, and they’ve been playing for big crowds for a long time before March. There is no excuse to play stiff all game. There is no excuse for not stepping up to the challenge when opposition charges ahead. There is no possible good explanation for not perspiring an entire game. These is no good excuse for not diving for basketballs.
It is obvious this team had issues this year, and it started (and maybe ended) with Tharpe. The sex photo was final proof that guy isn’t KU material. Let him go. He should have known better and we can blame other people for not having his attention any better than that. Tharpe didn’t have enough personal pride and respect for our program because if he did, he wouldn’t have done that. More than anything, he let his team down. That is what leaders do? And he didn’t just get into that situation over night. He was probably letting that lifestyle rule his consciousness throughout the basketball season. How could that happen without anyone seeing it and intervening? Are there other players on this team with that mindset? Nothing wrong with liking the ladies… but come on… he made a gigantic mistake.
Self should take responsibility for that. I would if I was coach. He hasn’t taken that on because this isn’t his team. There is a chain of command, and it starts at the top. If he isn’t held accountable, what example does that set for his players? These years Self has been at KU play a big part of his coaching legacy. He can’t sweep stuff like this under his rug.
He shouldn’t wait for people to finally figure it out and realize accountability starts at the top. He should be proactive and mention he is accountable and responsible for keeping these kids directed positively. No one is expecting these boys to become altar boys… but we do expect them to maintain themselves in public arenas, like the internet. And also to focus most of their direction on their education and basketball. If that is too much trouble, I’m sure we can scholarship other players who maintain a little more discipline.
I just feel like Self has become too complacent. He’s become too mellow. He’s not hungry enough for the big prize. Winning one title has spoiled him. All media talks about him being a shoe in as a hall of famer. I think it may have gotten to him and he is having a hard time staying focused on the big prize. Can’t expect his players to have more focus than him, and what was crystal clear to everyone this year is the lack of focus this team had.
The only real game we had focus and purpose was that Texas home game. Everything else was an exercise… just going through the motions.
I can point to many problem areas from this past season; lack of PG leadership, lack of team focus, lack of motivation, lack of effort, lack of a chip… it all eventually must point to the top. Under the right coaching and leadership, these areas will not become a problem.
It also feels like Self is distant from his players. Seems he is away too much recruiting or being on TV… something… but he didn’t seem close enough to his players. It is obvious, now, he wasn’t close enough with Tharpe, our team captain.
So I have issues in some areas… but I want them to be taken as construction criticism. I want Self to remain at Kansas… I just want to see more out of him, just like I want to see more out of his players.
Let’s win it all next year… or let’s lose after giving it our complete all! But enough with these half efforts and looking like deer in the headlights and then not changing to meet the challenge. That was the really horrible part about the Stanford game. They didn’t do anything so great to beat us, but after the game started showing a definite negative trend against us, we didn’t execute a different strategy.
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@JayhawkRock78 Zona! Roy started Jared Hasse, and played him the whole first half . . . when he had a BROKEN wrist! These guys make millions of dollars, and they are the most stubborn people on the court. Against Cuse, Roy couldn’t shut down their three-point shooter. He had seven in the game! Either game could have been a banner!
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I can’t watch this game. It just hurts too much, and I see over and over, again and again in these two teams what KU lacked…they make shots! That may be simplistic, but if you give Napier an open look he’s going to bury it. You give James Young a glimpse he’s going to slam that dagger down into your heart. That kind of killer instinct is something that KU LACKS. Non-existent, void of, soft, heartless…you get the idea.
@drgnslayr excellent post. I read your entire comment uninterrupted, in silence and got to the end where you note “Let’s win it all next year…or let’s lose after giving it our complete all!” I stopped and found myself screaming to myself “When have you seen KU lose that way (in March)?” The title game against Kentucky. That’s it. Maybe the Michigan game, but hard to walk away from that one feeling good when you blow a ten point lead with 2 minutes left. But you’re right. When have you seen that from a KU team? Not against VCU, not UNI, certainly not Stanford. THAT is the upsetting thing. Cry all you want in the locker room afterwards, but leave it all on the floor. We had one player do that this year…ONE! His name was Tarik Black. A guy who did know this could be the last game of his basketball career. The ONE player on this year’s team that understood that. That falls on Self’s shoulders. How do you not get your guys up in this sort of situation? Was KU this similarly complacent in 2011? Appears to be the case.
@truehawk93 You also make some good points. Not going to get into the Wiggins and Selden thing because that just wasn’t a big deal. But you raise an interesting point. When you say “Sadler spilled his guts to Hoiberg,” I have to ask, did he need to? I doubt that Sadler really had any impact on the KU-ISU games because honestly I think we win in KC with Embiid, and besides we handled ISU twice before that. BUT, that being said, you’re right, Self is very predictable. In that sense, KU is easy to beat. A team like UK that has a size and athleticism on the inside, and is a threat from the 3-point line is lethal. Because you are forced to take away both aspects of the game to beat them. And even then, shooters can make shots even with a hand in their face. James Young is an absolute assassin. This NC game has proven that…but I digress. The question really now becomes, does Self see where his system is flawed and has led to some god-awful, horrendous losses in the tournament? Or is he too proud to change? If the latter is the case, then we’re really forced to ask the question, is Self the right choice moving forward?
I don’t know. I don’t know Jayhawk fans. Self must now recognize the mounting disappointment among the KU fan base. If anything, his one-dimensional way of looking at the game has now cost KU arguably a couple titles. This NC hurts so much because we’re left watching either UK become the supreme ruler of the BB world, or UConn…become the most successful program in the last two decades.
I told myself not to watch any of the NC because I would do this… Now off to baseball season…where I don’t really care what happens.
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@JRyman The characterization of those who criticize Coach Self as “haters” is revealing to me. I read a lot of boards, and beyond Rodney the ridiculous, I don’t see this “hate” you seem to see everywhere. Seems like they overreacting to our loss, and you are hypersensitive about it. Openly pondering Coach Self’s exit strategy certainly is a strange way to show your support for our coach.
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@KUSTEVE I am not trying to get him fired by any means I’ve stuck up for coach all season long.
When others question him I ask if they are at practice in the huddle in the locker room? Coach does what he does for a reason, we aren’t there so how are we to question him.
You can’t take a pill and have it one way or a comete other way. You can’t go back in time and change anything. We are who we are and we are built by our past.
I wouldn’t trade coach self for anyone else out there at this time nor the near future.
I started this thread to point out how ridiculous it is to ask some of the things that are being asked on this bored like that’s the only options for KU.
I don’t look at it that way. I am not a pessimist nor a optimist but a realist.
I don’t write 20 paragraph post with words that Webster himself has to look up. I speak from the heart and I speak my mind freely. I have played the game of basketball on many organized levels. I have coached it too and grew up a gym rat as a coaches son. Do I know it all? No and I will never act like I am all knowing. I will however question those who think they do know it all or that they think they are better than anyone else.
I don’t hold anything against anyone here. I have never met anyone face to face so I have no idea if I would be a friend with them or not. I think everyone has a right to disagree with me or anyone else for whatever reason they want and they can agree with whom ever they want to.
I Have been a proud supporter and mostly alone in Nebraska as a KU fan since 1986. That’s not going to change any time soon.
Rock chalk jayhawk
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@JRyman great post! You speak for me as well!
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Right on!
I’d hire Tarik in a second.
Maybe we goofed this year and when JoJo became good enough to start, we should have pulled Perry and left Tar in there as a starter… even if he was still adjusting and fouling. Not for his immediate production, but for his spiritual impact.
We should have built this team around Tarik. He deserved it.
Let’s remove our Jayhawk eyewear and look back at Tarik and his transfer to KU. Through the entire process we only saw it through Jayhawk glasses so we thought Tarik was just taking advantage of a good opportunity. Tarik, actually, risked a lot by making that move. Memphis is his home, and he gambled a lot of good faith away to become a Jayhawk. We should have cherished that more than we did. And players responded to him more than any other player or coach.
I wish we had it to do all over… and we would have seen what we see now. I guess we can always say that.
Tarik leaves Kansas after only one year, but he will always be enshrined in me as one of my favorite Jayhawks.
“Black Death!”
I bet he stays close to the Jayhawk Nation and he comes back to Lawrence when he can. I’m sure he will keep contact with some players… Bam Bam for sure!
Rock Chalk, Tarik!
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@drgnslayr remember when almost everyone griped about him? No glasses! Maybe this was a nice move by Coach Self? Maybe?
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Yes… but Tar eventually won over about everyone. I liked him from day 1. I never jumped on the negative bandwagon. It was a good move by Self. I kept complaining that he became marginalized to a role player off the bench.
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@drgnslayr foul problems and his sprained ankle, Embiid developing, not seeing the 4 spot for him. I did love him and Mari together. He was put here for a purpose!
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So I googled “fire Bill Self” cause apparently that’s a thing now.
This was the 5th one down to click. I wonder how @JRyman new this year would spark this debate three years ago.
Then again @JRyman hasn’t posted for over a year after some looking into it so maybe he fell off the cheering stage for KU? Is it cause they still have Bill Self as coach?
Sure Coach Self has had it rough since 2012. But these loses aren’t as bad as those first round loses to the Bucknells and Bradleys. He survived those set backs in sore he will from the Oregon loss as well.
But why did the writer use this year as a time Self might leave or be fired?? Was it because they saw when son Tyler was graduating? Did they see the weakened in recruiting and lack of depth? Why this year and not last or next years?
I don’t think Self leaves. Where is he going?
But could you imagine the spin cycle the coaching carousel would take if Coach self was fired from KU? How many other coaches would be fired just so they could get their hands on Self for their head coach?
Remember what President Roosevelt reportedly said “Complaining about a problem without a solution is whining.”
Yes I am a new member as I wanted to comment on something I saw online last night.
Now to read other commentary on the rest of this board.
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Why in Gods name would KU fire a coach that wins 84% of his games, set a record for consecutive conference titles, makes the dance yearly, and is about to be inducted in the HOF? That is just ludicrous. They have yet to invent the device that can measure how dumb that idea is.
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@Fightsongwriter There are actually people out there that have not only said this but tweeted it talked about it on radio and on other sites.
Me, no I wouldn’t fire a coach like Self unless there were internal issues such as NCAA infractions.
Did the writer of this thread three years ago is not suggesting Slef be fired either for what I can understand. He is asking if Self leaves, be it on his own or by someone else’s hand.
Self runs one of the most respected programs among HS coaches in the country. The coaches can help a kid decide what’s right for them and where to go and I know that parents push kids in other directions for their own sake.
I have no issues with self being at KU.
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Lol @JRyman for his prognostication. All of your guesses as to why might be valid, though I do recall a few mentions of having him until then at least due to Tyler.
Welcome aboard @FarNrthJHwk. I’m glad this random message in a bottle washed your way.
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I can’t imagine him getting fired, but I could imagine him leaving.
Not fired though. Roy lasted 15 years without a single title.
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@approxinfinity he @JRyman always backed coach. He chats once in awhile. His daughter had a college visit at KU not long ago. If any of you remember he had a lot of health problems w/head, neck, back injuries.
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@Crimsonorblue22 ah yeah, i didn’t remember his stance on Self, just thought the future dated question was interesting.
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Surely there is a portion of completely irrational UK fans calling for Cal’s job right now as well. Isn’t that just how it goes? Truthfully they’d be just as dumb to fire him as KU would to fire Self.
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@cragarhawk I did hear awhile back their fan base was growing weary of the oad show.
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Appears some one has done a hack & whack job on Ryman’s thread-He’s been absent for over a year & this is NOT something he would post at this time. He’s been absent for waaaaaay too long to re-emerge in this manner Entire thread is a reposted scam. Let it all go or find some ip addresses & do your thing. Might start with the new poster -maybe find the smoking gun. This is clearly bullshit.
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@globaljaybird he was being sarcastic due to all the hate towards coach.
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@truehawk93 Here is the REAL question. - - How DO YOU know he didn’t prepare them? - -How DO YOU know they didn’t go over a scouting report? - -You ever think maybe just maybe he did prepare - -he did give the scouting report - -that MAYBE just maybe the players just didn’t execute that scouting report? - -that they just DIDN’T EXECUTE - - how quickly we wanna judge. - -You don’t know, you wasn’t at the practices - -neither was I but to just automatically go off on the coach and automatically say OH it’s the coach umm no, no it’s not - That’s just like saying they wasn’t prepared by not driving instead of shootin 3’s - -he can prep this gys till he is blue in the face, - - -the thing he can’t fo is go on the floor and shoot the ball, rebound the ball, play the defense for them, it’s not his fault they get off to their slow start that’s on them. - -Far from the coach’s fault for those things to quick to point fingers - - ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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@JayHawkFanToo EXACTLY, Coach self will leave when HE is ready, he won’t ever be forced out for a lot of the reasons you mentioned, you won’t find a coach who loves this School more or is more dedicated to a school, Personally I don’t think he will EVER leave period. - -If he didn’t leave when his alma Mater came calling for all purposes with an open check book and he said NO - - then he isn’t going ANYWHERE, well unless he just gets tired of listening to the tired bullshit of some fans.- -I just don’t think Bill Self is a NBA guy - -unless it’s because of not having to recruit and the stress that’s involved with that - but with the NBA you have to put up with a group of EGO problems from numerous players. - -I personally think when Bill walks away from here - -it will be because he is done period. - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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Spurs are the only job Self would leave KU for and Pop will determine when Pop is done which will probably be when Manu and Parker are done. Bill Self is currently at his final college coaching job.
Only 2 reasons to fire Self are if there’s a guarenteed better option out there that wants to come to KU today which is not the case. Or if Bill Self gets caught up in something that puts KU baksetball at risk like NCAA violations or something similar to Art Briles or. Larry Eustacy when he was partying with the Antlers while HC at ISU and a raging alcoholic.
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There is no guaranteed better option. And there will not be in my opinion. I’ll be all too happy to take my chances with Coach Self and the fact the he is able to adjust and learn and grow. And I believe he will. He is far too hungry not to do whatever it takes in the end. Even if it had to mean taking a step back and reflecting on himself to see if there’s something he can maybe do differently. He’s a genius at getting the most out of his teams. You don’t do that constantly without spending alot of time calculating things in your mind. He had proven himself highly capable and more recently very willing to do that. It only goes up from here I believe.
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@globaljaybird This is what I googled and this was the 5th headline so I read it. To reply I signed up today. I don’t know anyone here. Wasn’t trying to start an argument, was just wondering why someone would write this three years ago and have this year in the post. Then I read more and more and am enjoying things here. If for some reason this doesn’t set well with you I can delete my account an Hi on enjoying my retired life and prepare for flyfishing right out side my house. The retired life is good.
Sorry I tried to add this to this post originally and it didn’t work then I added it to the wrong post and don’t know how to delete it now. Butbhere it is. Sorry. All
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@FarNrthJHwk okay… I think you can stay if you’re willing to invite us to come fly fishing right outside your house with you… lol. JK welcome aboard!
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@cragarhawk Whitlash, MT hence the name here. Not much around. Not much to do but stay warm in the winter and enjoy the outdoors once we thaw out.
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@globaljaybird nah man timestamp on rymans post is 3 years ago. What’s interesting is that when you Google fire bill self that thread is still near the top. To me that means no legit news or even many message boards are calling for Bill’s head. All is more or less right in the Jayhawk universe.
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@approxinfinity Mmmm didnt even think of it that way. Thanks for pointingg that out.
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In my not so humble opinion, any suggestion regarding the firing of Bill Self is absolutely ridiculous. As are the comparisons to Roy. We are fortunate beyond measure that our athletic dept. chanced upon BIll Self after Roy’s abrupt departure. One of my brighter much younger friends just sent an email suggesting that our coaching staff might be minus a key tactician sitting beside our head coach, esp. at NCAA TourneyTime. Probably, we dearly miss Joe Dooley.
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@REHawk love Dooley! He must be really happy, thought he might be in on some of the job openings.
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@FarNrthJHwk said:
Sorry I tried to add this to this post originally and it didn’t work then I added it to the wrong post and don’t know how to delete it now. Butbhere it is. Sorry. All
OK So first & foremost think about this: Since we just dropped out at the EE weekend & you’re fresh off the boat… This is a very controversial topic to be posted on our board, & you are a new poster that made the first post on a crap 3 yr old topic in 3 freaking years. Ryman made this thread on the topic because this (2017) is the yr that Tyler grads & he (as many others) was speculating abt HCBS staying because some ALWAYS want Self fired when we don’t win the NC. ALWAYS ! And Popovich is older & Buford does the SA hiring. There are multiple board rats that will verify exactly what I just stated.That is the first flag. Now you say you tried to edit but cannot crack the nut…We have no absolutely NO prob whatsoever with a legit KU fan coming on board, not understanding the website navigation today or any other day but, connecting all these dots to a respected, albeit vacant & sick board rat is not quite that easy-flag 2… Then clearly calling me out for a vigilant reply to a thread topic clearly addressed to no one in particular & definitely NOT YOU , presents the appearance of a damage control tactic & makes this further topic/thread revival look even more suspicious. Flag 3. Say what you like, boast what you’re qualified to say, however here’s the nut outta the shell. I clearly did not mention you bro, so don’t say jack to me about what you believe I think savvy? Good or bad either. Do not infer your thoughts about my intentions of my comment when I am not addressing you. I’m not a bashful man & trust me, if I wish to rattle your cage, you will never be confused, Leave your words to your mouth-not mine PLEASE leave me out of it then talk all you like… And if you’d like to threaten anyone else, or me like you did, that you’ll just resign, feel free to do whatever floats your boat. If you prefer I put this in a PM, sorry. you did not show that courtesy so I thought everyone reading should have an opportunity to get a diff & updated perspective from us both. I’ve no further comment on a 3 yr old thread.
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@globaljaybird I didn’t mean to step on toes or throw stones or upset the apple cart. As I have stated what I was doing, why I was doing it and I decided to comment on it due to the fact of the age of it. I’m not sure why you feel the need to threaten (even in a very hidden manner) my intentions or throw flags like a football ref. Perhaps I didn’t come to the right place as a KU fan? If I can’t write or express something if my own will without the hetoric of others come crashing down like a ton of bricks because it doesn’t sit well with them. I replied to you because of the comment you made about it all Being fishy or something and searching IP addresses. No you didn’t use my name, and geesh I’m truest sorry I used yours. Wasn’t my intent to rile you up and stir the pot.
Again to anyone else I offended or up set I am sorry and new and that was not my intention.
Moving on
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@globaljaybird cuts a lot of slack and looks after the backs of most. I would take what he wrote to heart and hang in.
This board has apparently evolved quite differently than most. It is small in number and has a lot of long timers. It’s more like a 20th cafe in a small town than a Starbucks in a big city. There is a legacy memory here that is absent in many online communities.
If you want to learn about KU Basketball–about what is really knowable about it short of being on the inside, or being a reporter getting face time, this board has that.
We have some writers and some guys that taught themselves to write here. They “think” about basketball, and they “listen.” Board rats here actually hear and think about what is posted and there are some here with some miles on them; that have seen some eras come and go and so can fit what others write into a larger context. You write something here and someone will think about it. A lot of new posters aren’t ready for that. They are used to jerks bashing them, or approval from shallow shared opinions, but they are not used to being taken seriously by grown men and women.
There’s something I call “a hard 13” here. I’ve been writing a lot for a long time here. I have some that agree often and others that don’t. But nobody gives me a freebie here. You get 13 votes here and it was something special. Your getting votes beyond shared points of view. I don’t get that very often. They let me know where I stand and where they do. But they don’t let differences get in the way when you do something worthwhile.
But this place is more than a 20th Century word cafe. It’s a 21st Century logonasium to come work out and play pickup word games in. Most here have played basketball, some competitively and some on the playgrounds. If you go to a new playground, or gym, you know you’re going to get a few smashed back in your grille till you figure who is who. You don’t quit and go home, because some one schooled you on something. You learn and get better and try to find a way to stay on the court.
This court still has some old metal nets on the side baskets and some old guys that care, even if they can’t get up like they used to. I don’t think he said anything you can’t take. He just went up and rejected one in your grille. Ya gotta stay to play though. Up to you though. No one’s going to come looking for you to invite you back.
Rock Chalk!
