Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond)
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@approxinfinity What is most important is to realize that if we wanted to, we white people can stay in our homes, watch Netflix, order delivered groceries, and totally immerse ourselves in whatever we want. We can forget all the race stuff any time we want.
Blacks and other minorites cannot afford for a second to forget that at any time going into public they risk possibly being targeted or suspected or followed or accused because of their color.
Actually, even innocently at home they risk being mudered.
Any white saying they are tired of this should start by reading Black Like Me, then watch Selma, followed by The Forgiven. After that, go talk to persons of color about their experiences with LE. Then shut up about how big their own burden is.
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You know the tide is turning when noted left-wing rag… National Review(!) says Confederate monuments should mostly come down. https://www.nationalreview.com/2020/06/confederate-statues-debate-conservatives-shouldnt-defend-symbols-secession/
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@mayjay I’m allowed to be tired of talking about race, and when someone says they’re tired of something, forcing what they’re tired of down their throat is in my opinion pretty insensitive, tone deaf and counter productive. I think this line of whitewashed reasoning is akin to the simplistic, artificial, white-flight archetype it purports to combat. I.e. you’re tired of it too, and you’re throwing out a half baked solution, you may just not see it.
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All of our lives we’ve been talking about race. Do you want to talk about us white folks and those brown folks and those Asian folks and how ne’er the twain shall meet for the rest of our lives? Do you want our children to have to be divided by race? Or do you want to get past it?
I’m sick of talking about it. You are too. Let’s fix it.
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The blinders we wear. Some people think football players kneeling = disrespecting the troops. Others think being tired of something means a lack of compassion.
Exhaustion isn’t malaise. We all know what we are dealing with. And that’s where I think you guys have @HighEliteMajor pegged wrong. Someone writing page after page after page about something isn’t someone who doesn’t care. It’s someone who is tired of bullshit and wants solutions. We can disagree about those solutions (we do!) but hanging him out to dry as a racist because he is sick of our broken self-image as a nation is an oversimplification of where he is coming from.
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I am neither exhausted nor tired, and not sick of talking about it with people who are affected. Poor little white people, victimized by the consequences of ignoring it except when things go crazy.
My black neighbor’s niece got pulled over last Friday for not having proper window tinting. She was near her son’s elementary school to pick him up, so she pulled into the parking lot there. Yanked out of the car by the white cop in front of the kids, and (lightly) frisked. He gave her a ticket. She called her mother as she walked back to the car and said to her mom, “No, I don’t know what the hell that was all about!”
The cop heard her, and arrested her for cursing on school property. The school principal and security officer tried to get the cop to back off because it wasn’t even something the kids could hear. My neighbor is related to a police chief in a major city here, knows the Columbia police chief well, and has a state senator as a relative. After she and they started burning up the phones, the cop let her go about 6 pm.
If my neighbor wasn’t “connected” the niece would have spent the weekend in jail.
And if I hadn’t gone over to my neighbor’s house on Sunday and said, “Hey, let’s talk about what’s been going on” I never would have known about it. Or had a chance to wonder how often that crap goes on.
Go ahead, pretend that we are able to be racially neutral. Just be aware that when someone is targeted because of race, the fact that you don’t want to hear about the anger it causes doesn’t make that anger–the product of 400 years of oppression, rape, and muder–go away.
As for your willingness to absolve HEM, you have done it for years. He attacks people all the time, and you desperately need to think his long-winded bullshit reveals an intellectual current worth crediting. You never call him out for abusive language, but you have done so with me and others.
If you think HEM is not a racist, you just aren’t paying attention. A dialog with someone who spews the “blacks should be happy they were enslaved because Africans are worse off” line is repeating almost word for word what Robert E. Lee said 164 years ago, around the time he was breaking up his slaves’ families through selling the parents separately and their children, too.
I am done with this discussion and pretty much this forum. Trying to talk to someone who thinks HEM is worth listening to is just too frustrating. While you try to listen, he will continue to spew his hatred and disdain. Enjoy.
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@mayjay So you’re only tired of talking about it with people who disagree with you?
You’re angry about it. But I think your anger is misplaced when it’s aimed at any white person who disagrees with you.
I believe that we all have unconscious biases. But I reserve the racist label for people who actively hate on other races, not just say things that seem insensitive or illogical.
I’ve stated numerous times that it’s not my job to police people on here. I do what I can and I have called out HEM before.
The context of this being tired of talking about race is in regards to crappy ESPN articles about race. ESPN, a place we go for sports. Similarly, crappy books I had to read growing up in public school simply because they were about race. I didn’t mind the good ones, mind you. I minded the crappy ones. Your neighbor’s story is a great illustration of the real problems and police reform is top of the list.
I’m trying to be a realist and a centrist. If you don’t like how I go about it that’s fine. But as a moderator I’m trying to remain moderate.
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Answer me this… what affect would my reading “Black Like Me” have on the police officer arresting your neighbor’s daughter? What affect would it have on anything? What does it say about your unconscious bias of how you think I conduct my life that you think I need to read “Black Like Me” and then “shut up”?
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@approxinfinity Okay, I will grant you that you could reach that conclusion from my wording. So an explanation is in order.
I am disgusted by racist people, and feel no need to engage with anyone who does not respect what other people have to say. I also see no reason to engage in ongoing discussions about why hateful people should be listened to. As to well-intentioned people like yourself, you may wish to fool yourself about HEM but you cannot get me to follow that path. So, my energy will go into talking with dozens of people who can recognize racism and hatred when they see it.
Neville Chamberlain believed Hitler wanted peace because he said so.
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@mayjay PS I said more above… Kept editing my post.
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@mayjay ok thanks for meeting me more in the middle. I just think what we are fighting now in an awareness of unconscious bias and not racism for 97% (? arbitrarily large number. Vast majority is what I mean) of Americans.
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@approxinfinity “Shut up about how big [a white person’s] burden is” is what I said about someone tired of the whole thing, not simply shut up.
I think you do yourself a disservice by saying you are tired of it or sick of it. If you are seeking solutions, you by definition are not just griping–a better phrase for you might be “frustrated by the need to talk about it”. I am talking about the people who are tired of being inconvenienced, and wish the blacks would just realize how much better they have it than it was before.
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@mayjay So I don’t think of it as a disservice because I think it’s ok to just say you’re sick of it. I think that falls under pursuit of happiness. Some conversation is productive. Other conversation isnt. Don Lemon and Chris Cuomo talking about whats going on is idiotic. They’re both insufferable.
I think this board is a great example of the debate about what unites us. Is it discussing our differences (i.e. race and socioeconomics) or discussing our similarities (KU bball fandom)? I am opposed to the idea of dwelling on negatives because I think it creates a culture of negativity. So i think we need balance. And that doesn’t mean dropping bombs of negativity from an opposing view. Genuine positivity. That’s why @FarmerJayhawk 's take is imo the most refreshing on a regular basis. He tries to find the good.
Also, I’m sure there are times I’ve been overly pessimistic myself… This is how I’m feeling now: we need balance and optimism to get us through this.
And hey, tearing down the monuments is something exciting. I hope we replace them thoughtfully. Police reform is something more exciting. I think while defunding the police seems nuts, the positive spin is that it will show us things we never would have seen. And more deliberate reform hopefully will follow, leading us somewhere good in the end.
That’s how I get through the Trump administration, coronavirus quarantine, now this. Hope that by seeing our worst we can better achieve our best.
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@approxinfinity said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):
@mayjay So I don’t think of it as a disservice because I think it’s ok to just say you’re sick of it. I think that falls under pursuit of happiness. Some conversation is productive. Other conversation isnt. Don Lemon and Chris Cuomo talking about whats going on is idiotic. They’re both insufferable.
I think this board is a great example of the debate about what unites us. Is it discussing our differences (i.e. race and socioeconomics) or discussing our similarities (KU bball fandom)? I am opposed to the idea of dwelling on negatives because I think it creates a culture of negativity. So i think we need balance. And that doesn’t mean dropping bombs of negativity from an opposing view. Genuine positivity. That’s why @FarmerJayhawk 's take is imo the most refreshing on a regular basis. He tries to find the good.
Also, I’m sure there are times I’ve been overly pessimistic myself… This is how I’m feeling now: we need balance and optimism to get us through this.
And hey, tearing down the monuments is something exciting. I hope we replace them thoughtfully. Police reform is something more exciting. I think while defunding the police seems nuts, the positive spin is that it will show us things we never would have seen. And more deliberate reform hopefully will follow, leading us somewhere good in the end.
That’s how I get through the Trump administration, coronavirus quarantine, now this. Hope that by seeing our worst we can better achieve our best.
Appreciate the kind words, sir!
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@FarmerJayhawk we shall call you, Pollyanna!
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@Crimsonorblue22 said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):
@FarmerJayhawk we shall call you, Pollyanna!
Ha! I don’t hate it
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Imagine how tired minorities (esp Black and Latino) must be of being passed over for jobs and promotions in favor of less qualified white candidates.
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@mayjay said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):
If you think HEM is not a racist, you just aren’t paying attention. A dialog with someone who spews the “blacks should be happy they were enslaved because Africans are worse off” line is repeating almost word for word what Robert E. Lee said 164 years ago, around the time he was breaking up his slaves’ families through selling the parents separately and their children, too.
DING DING DING DING DING.
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@FarmerJayhawk my friends call me that all the time, always the peacemaker.
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@BShark said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):
Imagine how tired minorities (esp Black and Latino) must be of being passed over for jobs and promotions in favor of less qualified white candidates.
Sort of tangentially, I teach this paper every semester in stats/quant methods in policy. https://pubs.aeaweb.org/doi/pdfplus/10.1257/0002828042002561
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@FarmerJayhawk said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):
@BShark said in Racial Truths and Untruths and the Search for Justice while Doing Justice (previously titled To Infinity and Beyond):
Imagine how tired minorities (esp Black and Latino) must be of being passed over for jobs and promotions in favor of less qualified white candidates.
Sort of tangentially, I teach this paper every semester in stats/quant methods in policy. https://pubs.aeaweb.org/doi/pdfplus/10.1257/0002828042002561
This lines up with the experiences of people I talk to. Some people end up using initials or adopting a secondary “white sounding” name to bypass at least the initial biases.
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@FarmerJayhawk thanks for the link. Good stuff.
@BShark I work at an agency that helps people find work. We are very aware of these issues and are exploring options to mitigate the problems. There are many other factors besides names. Employers value individuality and what sets you apart, so it’s a balancing act.
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The reality is that most don’t want to have a discussion on this topic. I’ve said it before, but the “he’s a racist” claim shields one from having to face facts. It’s easy for small minded among us (like @BShark) to avoid his lack of intellect with the accusation. But as I’ve said before, ok, now what?
I provided a link from a fellow far from a conservative that largely echos my positions (Orlando Patterson). Yet, it’s easier for many of you to be dishonest or to again cry racism.
But ok, let’s say certain positions are racist? Ok. So what? Talk to the blacks the live the horror of inner city violence. Intellectually, the claim that it is racist doesn’t matter. Intellectually, what matters are facts and logic. And the truth is, I have a lot of facts. Significant facts that can’t be refuted. They are facts that make leftists and white apologists uncomfortable. Thus, there positions are just dismissed as racist because they can’t be refuted.
One of the posts I remember is when I pointed out the issue of black out of wedlock births. Resident skinny jeans leftist @benshawks08 was caught off guard. He really didn’t even know what I was talking about. He further was attacking and dismissive of the role of faith in being part of the solution But of course, @benshawks08 - being an atheist homosexual - has a clear bias against those items having relevance. Why? Because it personally offends his existence. But we can certain exist together. He can be a gay atheist in America. Fine. But he lets that personal bias interfere with discussing realities.
Nevermind the former (leftist) mayor of Chicago, after eight years on the job, identified the out of wedlock births and faith as key components to attacking inner city violence.
And see, that’s it - the dishonest left, many here, won’t consider that this analysis is a pie graph. Lots of slices.
You can see many folks that want to have a discussion, like @approxinfinity. He doesn’t agree. But he works to address facts and logic. And there is a large difference. I throw @FarmerJayhawk in that group. I made the mistake of throwing the leftist label his way. My mistake. But he tends to attack the argument, and the issue intelligently, like @approxinfinity.
Perhaps the worst of this forum is @mayay. I’ll tell you why.
First, @mayay is a lawyer. That’s fine. I’m a lawyer. Ah, you didn’t know that. But with @mayjay, look back on his posts, when he’d get boxed it, he’d pull out the I’m an lawyer thing to throw in folks faces. As if he then had the higher ground. Well it’s pathetic. I’ve been posting for over 15 years and never once did I pull that out. Why? Because that wasn’t part of the discussion.
Second, @mayjay is full sh**. Go back and look. There was a discussion on NCAA rules and a rules interpretation. @mayjay pulled out the, well, unless you’re a lawyer thing, to support his argument. But worse, he threw out legal terms that had no applicability. That’s the b.s. lawyers use to shut down discussion. For example, he cited a principle called “res judicata.” That is a legal principal that relates to “claim preclusion.” You can’t re-litigate the same claim. @mayjay cited the term in a our discussion in response to his incorrect interpretation of the rule – WHICH HAS NO APPLICABILITY AND WAS COMPLETE BULLSH**.
Just so you know, you non-lawyers, he’s full of it. I’m a litigator, regularly deal with that issue (together will collateral estopple, which is issue preclusion).
Again, I just didn’t feel the need to throw that in folks’ face like @mayjay does.
BUT WORSE, @mayjay IS A LIAR. He does this regularly. He’s suggest someone said something, but that’s not what they said. Then he’ll used the incorrect citation to make a point.
Above, @mayjay, used a Hitler analogy. @mayjay is a complete idiot.
BUT HERE’S A RECENT AND SIMPLE EXAMPLE OF @mayjay’s DISHONESTY. BLATANT.
@mayjay said, referring to me, A dialog with someone who spews the “blacks should be happy they were enslaved because Africans are worse off” line is repeating almost word for word what Robert E. Lee said 164 years ago, around the time he was breaking up his slaves’ families through selling the parents separately and their children, too. And of course, idiot @BShark quoted his material.
He used quotes, but I never said that. He made it up. Further, assuming the use of quotes was loose, it’s still not what I said. Here’s what I said,
It seems quite a bit better to be an African-American vs. just an African. But perhaps my opinion there is off …
And more foolishness – true or untrue, blacks in America are better off than blacks in Africa? Undeniable. Turn that however you want. The point is sometimes that your reach a place in history, and most times through tragedy, that places the next generation in a better position that the prior generation. The Japanese and Germans, through tragedy, propelled America and our nation to a place that would not have been achieved without such tragedy. Do we wish it wouldn’t have occurred? Sure. Of course. But are we, our generation, in a better position because of it? Definitely.
And then @Kcmatt7 says, oh, I guess the Jews should be “happy” for holocaust because they now have Israel.
It truly the simple minded that cannot differentiate.
The point is that once tragic events happen, sometimes, the end result is better for those that follow. I’m sure the lives lost in the Revolutionary war were tragic. But the result was better for future generations. Simple concept.
But you can see (if you truly try) the significant difference. Now one is saying ANYONE should be thankful for slavery, or WWII, or the Holocaust, or any tragedy. But it is undeniable that a tragedy can place the future generation in a better position than they otherwise would be.
THE CHALLENGE IS TO FREE YOUR MIND TO DISCUSS TOPICS THAT ARE CONTROVERSIAL, THAT CHALLENGE YOUR THOUGHT PROCESS, THAT MAKE YOU UNCOMFORTABLE. WE’RE SEEING THAT NOW. BUT IT’S A TWO WAY STREET. BLACKS HAVE TO FACE THE REALITY THAT GREAT MANY OF THEIR PROBLEMS ARE A RESULT OF THEIR BEHAVIORS – PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY. IF FOLKS HERE CAN’T EVEN GRASP THAT, WELL, THEN YOU ARE LOST.
I’m just not going to quietly be beat over the head for being “white” if someone is not going to have the discussion about “blacks.”
It seems ok to group all of us “whites” together, but the minute it’s a discussion of “blacks”, then we can only use the term “blacks” when it comes to discussing them as victims or their positive characteristic – but we sure as he** better not discuss their failings.
And, of course, my discussion on blacks has only been on the warped and depraved black inner city culture. That’s all. And that’s all I’m concerned about. Inner city loss of life is horrific and that’s the drum I’ve been beating.
Perhaps, if you don’t want to find a solution to that (leftists) then perhaps you are the true racists – I mean, if inner city black deaths at the hands of other blacks is acceptable.
HERE’S WHAT’S EVEN MORE FUNNY. I’VE DESTROYED THE LEFTISTS HERE ON THIS TOPIC. UTTERLY DESTROYED YOU. YOU ALL SIT BACK AND SHAKE YOUR HEAD AND MUTTER “RACIST”, BUT YOUR PATHETIC ASS** HAVE BEEN HANDED TO YOU ON A PLATTER.
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This podcast really got me today.
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@HighEliteMajor you got a lot of anger in you man. It doesn’t help when you feel you aren’t being honestly heard. But if our goal in discussing things is to destroy one another, rather than inform one another and make each other think, we are only going to get more entrenched.
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@Crimsonorblue22 From the hypocrite. The one that makes a federal case out of Ashley Juggs and then makes multiple comments on the appearance of teenage KU basketball players. Birds of feather …
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@Crimsonorblue22 Just shows you for the extreme hypocrite you are. I don’t care what you say about the players. I’m cool with it. You’re the hypocrite.
@approxinfinity Look at how discussions start … then the anger and B.S. that follows. Quite frankly, I just don’t take it anymore. I respond and refute the repeated lies, mischaracterizations, and accusations.
Anger? Hmm. Hitler, racist, klan member, white supremacist, hater, asshole, sicko, etc. That’s a sampling what is directed at me by folks that quite frankly can’t hold my jock.
I’ve been much more aggressive over the last few years because I’m sick of turning the other cheek.
I abandoned the real BB analysis because it inspired so much anger and garbage. It just wasn’t worth it any longer.
I want to leave some of you leftists with this thought -
Imagine if I chose to protest by taking a piss on MLK’s grave? Just to protest his immorality, womanizing and sexism.
Well that’s how many, many Americans feel about dishonoring American during the national anthem.
Folks want to attack America? I’ll always be their enemy. Always.
They may have the “right”, but that doesn’t mean it’s right. Just like my sample protest isn’t right.
It’s all hypocritical. Can you imagine if folks on the right did anything near this? Or like Seattle? It would be the end of the world.
What Seattle needs is a few real Americans, just a few of us, and the Chaz zone would be done and over.
I’m done here.
This site has gone to hell. And it will never recover.
As for our country, until folks realize that what matters is prioritizing and preserving life, nothing will get better. An amoral society is a trigger for decay. We see it now. The slippery slope is as true as it’s ever been.
And the left is more concerned about racism than life itself.
We bow down to < 13% of the population that refuses to focus on their nightly assassinations born from a sick culture of extreme violence, lack of personal responsibility, and disrespect for women. A culture that refuses to help itself. Where the leaders is the culture — the athletes — glorify the “thug life.” Great leaders.
Black Lives only matter when it’s convenient— convenient for blacks and for enabling white leftists. The same white leftists that have run inner cities for decades.
Anger? A little. More so just sick to see the shit hole into which this country is descending.
No matter how many monuments you tear down, how many ways you try to erase history, blacks were always slaves. Can’t change it.
And the cold, hard, bottom line fact is that is blacks, as a group, had the same work ethic and morality as the Hispanics that risk everything to come the US, much of this would be moot.
Racist? Whatever. Fuck off to all of you.
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@HighEliteMajor Alright. Well. I’ll ban you for [EDIT] 2 days (this seems like an arbitrary number. I have no official policy here. I don’t even know if a ban is appropriate. I just want people to not resort to cussing each other out). Take a breather and see if things change. Come check back in after that if you want to be more civil. I appreciate the thoughts but the hate is just not productive. I really don’t know what else to do, and honestly, it seems like stepping away from this discussion might be best for you. Please don’t go hang out in a bubble of like minded people though. Debate is good, even if it didn’t work out here at this moment.
I think the site is as much going to hell as the rest of world. Take care and hope you feel better soon.
We’ll need you come basketball season, regardless of all else. Even if it feels like it may never happen. It will. We’ll get there again.
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If anyone has any suggestions for improvements, as always I’m all ears. My assumption is that it’s the off season, things are always slow, and when you throw in a global pandemic and racial unrest like we’ve never seen. Well, times are weird. But let me know please if anyone has suggestions. That includes you @HighEliteMajor , please reach out to me via email at approxinfinity@gmail.com
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Might be unpopular, but I hope @HighEliteMajor comes back, and he and other posters stop with the personal garbage. He’s contrarian as hell and we go at it regularly, but it’s fun and rarely got very nasty on either side. The world is a better place with more speech, not less.
So @approxinfinity maybe institute some sort of warning system for personal attacks? Once, a day ban, second, a week, third, forever? Idk.
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@FarmerJayhawk it’s a slippery slope. I don’t want to police people. I want people to just be good because it’s the right thing to do.
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I’m going to lock this thread; I think it’s time for a fresh start on this topic.
