If Bill Self were suspended for a year...
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@approxinfinity Take solace, this team is overrated. The flaws will show up by conference season. The lack of elite talent at the 2/3 will be their March downfall. Villanova wiped out the best KU teams of the decade.
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@dylans I disagree, look at dok. Silvio and the Iowa kid
, I noticed in the pics he doesn’t look very happy.
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Crimsonorblue22 said:
@dylans I disagree, look at dok. Silvio and the Iowa kid
, I noticed in the pics he doesn’t look very happy.Meh
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@Crimsonandblue12 Dok, Silvio, and Dotson are championship pieces. The rest not yet.
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@dylans I feel Ochai can get there, he the 2nd best guard on the team.
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@BShark I really hope so, but injured Ochai down the stretch was very average. I mean I really really hope he can reach that potential we saw his first games. I like Ochai and his attitude a lot!
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dylans said:
@BShark I really hope so, but injured Ochai down the stretch was very average. I mean I really really hope he can reach that potential we saw his first games. I like Ochai and his attitude a lot!
Health goes a long way. Healthy Garrett and Ochai are good players.
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@BShark I want to like Garrett’s game, but his shooting kills me.
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@dylans his injury really impacted his game. His shooting will always hold him back but he is still above average overall.
@Crimsonorblue22 seems to think Moss is already unhappy so I wonder what that would mean.
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There are a bunch of questions about how players are going to mesh and develop/stay healthy. I like this team way better than last years squad, but my expectations are tempered and my childlike love for the game has been squashed by the fbi crap.
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@BShark just a pic,
no rumors or rumours. Gals notice these things, McBride never smiled either.
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@dylans very fair my man
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Crimsonorblue22 said:
@BShark just a pic,
no rumors or rumours. Gals notice these things, McBride never smiled either.maybe McBride do not like to smiled
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Crimsonorblue22 said:
@BShark just a pic,
no rumors or rumours. Gals notice these things, McBride never smiled either.Okay. I know you mentioned it with doke too. It was obvious with grimes. Other players mostly seem to be pretty happy to be here.
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I meant dok looks great! That was a positive comment about him and moss. Then I said moss didn’t smile, I know, I’m confusing!
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Crimsonorblue22 said:
I meant dok looks great! That was a positive comment about him and moss. Then I said moss didn’t smile, I know, I’m confusing!
I meant you said it in the past about dok.
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I understand on Moss now, the syntax confused me.
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@JAYHAWKFAN214 yes, you are right!
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@Crimsonorblue22 Dedrick didn’t exude enthusiasm, either, but I had no complaints about his ability or willingness to play (had smarts, but no great speed).
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@BShark “the syntax confused me…”
By god, I am sick of all these taxes! Sin should be free–well, according to some you pay at the end…
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Referring to myself, keep it simple, stupid!
I think Dok is really happy and proud of his new body! And… he should be!
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@mayjay No joke. What irritates me is the NCAA knows exactly how the never ending black cloud is affecting KU recruiting, so whatever happens, they’ll get their pound of flesh. While for Duke, UK, etc. it’s business as usual.
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@approxinfinity I don’t know about the coach suspension. That is usually based on something program related, internal. All of these issues (that we know of) are related to third party action that we relied upon to benefit our program. Of course, Bill Self said very famously, “When recruiting prospective student athletes, my staff and I have not and do not offer improper inducements to them or their families to influence their college decisions, nor are we aware of any third-party involvement to do so."
I said at the time that Self’s comment about third parties was very unwise. He should never have said that, true or untrue. When a coach makes such a definitive statement, and if there is evidence in the NCAA’s hands that suggests he lied, it might make things a bit more difficult. It creates a bit of a bulls-eye with its audacity, given the info we know. In fact, of course, the concept that Adidas provided benefits and our coach was unaware of that general fact is asinine. I understand that he might not get the detail, but the concept of benefits and that they are taking action to help us get recruits that way is a different story.
My view continues to be that we end up losing the FF, vacating wins (which impacts the Big 12 title for 2017-18), and missing the NCAA tourney for a season. If I had bet on an outcome, that would be my lead scenario. A lot of options including scholarships, missing an additional tournament, or a coach (or coaches) getting suspended.
The facts are easy (despite protests by some that there is no evidence). Preston got paid by Adidas. DeSousa got paid by Adidas and UA. KU played DeSousa, who was found to be ineligible and ultimately suspended for a full season. Self and KU relied upon Adidas for recruiting assistance and Adidas reported directly to Self on progress. Adidas (or TJ Gassnola individually) fits squarely under the definition of a booster in the NCAA rules. The NCAA is keenly focused of the importance of that consideration as they made us stipulate to Adidas as a booster as part of the DeSousa review.
This is not minor. It’s serious. Always has been.
And it can get worse. I said way back when this broke that there is a significant possibility that this all leads to Bill Self leaving KU. I know that was met with a bit of a negative response. But this is real. Bill Self has one coaching career. And this remains a huge risk as we move forward. I appreciate Self’s comments about commitment to KU, but again, he has one career, he’s been here deep into a second decade here. It’s a major risk. This sort of upset creates conflict and issues where an AD, or Chancellor, can get cross-wise with Self on any number of issues, including candor. It’s how things can go south.
The shine is off Bill Self’s star for me. I think he lied when he made that statement back on October 24, 2018. I guess I can live with that. I wouldn’t disown my brother for a lie. But I am disappointed and I don’t look at him the same way. He could have take a much more measured and contrite approach related to what has happened with his program. I hope we can all, as a program, university, and fans, get through this with our great program intact.
I expect Bill Self to LEAD us out of this. Just like he’s led us into it. But I expect him to do it with honest and integrity. Not the stumbling and embarrassing denials of October 24, 2018. Bill Self can turn this around. He really is the right guy to do it. But it starts with him.
From a purely “defend what we have” perspective, and the injustice of others not getting punished when the recruiting game and shoeco involvement is an obvious fact, I’ve advocated the “burn it down” approach if we are to get slammed. Screw the NCAA. We should warn the NCAA. If they hammer us, we will ensure that information on what has gone on with multiple recruits, from Zion, to Anthony Davis, to Justin Jackson will be exposed. What other schools or shoecos offered or provided. If we knew what Zion wanted, per Townsend, we know what Zion (and others) got. Or, perhaps, they could come down a little lighter on us. Just my thoughts. This can go hand in hand with honesty from our program and coach.
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I hear some talk that josh Jackson’s recruitment might be included.
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Marcus Garrett is the best defender in the B12 and a top 5 defensive guard nationally. His offensive game may not be anything special, although he is an above average driver, he doesn’t have to be a great offensive player because of how elite his defense is.
Agbaji’s health is a legitimate question mark. Because of the type of injury it was (shins), it’s not out of the question that it’s going to be a chronic issue and rob everyone of seeing him reach his full potential just like we never got to see Wayne Selden reach his full potential because of his knees.
This team has flaws and they’re the same flaws as last year. KU doesn’t have a ready to go back up PG other than Garrett. This team still isn’t going to be good at shooting 3’s. Doke’s health will also always be a question mark because of the freak injuries and games he missed his one “healthy” year.
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I dont think there is any scenario KU accepts a post season ban. Not happening.
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BeddieKU23 said:
I dont think there is any scenario KU accepts a post season ban. Not happening.
Vacate 2-3 seasons and move on would be ideal.
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@Crimsonorblue22 Where did you hear the JJ recruiting is part of this? That would not be good.
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HighEliteMajor said:
@Crimsonorblue22 Where did you hear the JJ recruiting is part of this? That would not be good.
Preston imo.
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@HighEliteMajor just a friend
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@HighEliteMajor I think Self had played his hand the way he had because this is bigger than him. If he admits too much, NCAA sinks their teeth into the program immediately. Sure, if we get hammered anyway, we can say with 20/20 hindsight that integrity would have been the best policy but, as the apologists have (imo rightfully) said, there is a systemic problem that won’t be solved by us admitting past mistakes and getting killed for it. It just means that we lose while those who get away with it profit. And as long as the NCAA has reason to perpetuate this charade we get no closer to fixing the system.
I wish I could agree on your second point, that once we get hammered if we do, we should show where all the bodies for other programs were buried, but what does this say to future recruits except don’t trust Kansas at all? The climate won’t be any different, we will still be hearing about other programs transgressions from recruits that no doubt expect and value a level of confidentiality with our recruiters.
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BShark said:
BeddieKU23 said:
I dont think there is any scenario KU accepts a post season ban. Not happening.
Vacate 2-3 seasons and move on would be ideal.
I have a white out pen if we need
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Very very well stated. I’m in full agreement. And yes the star on CS is tarnished… Sadly. In fact, i would go as far as to say that “burning it down” is the only way he can regain the shine. Those that have the opinion that Self was doing what he had to do to keep this program competitive in an across the board dirty landscape which requires such dealings may be indeed correct. If so, then I say the man should expose that to the world. That may be only way to regain the integrity for himself and for KU.
Personally I don’t think Self stays and “leads us out of this” if he is suspended for a season. And… Chastise as you will, I’m not sure I’d even want him to.
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This is why the NCAA needs to modify their rules. Everyone knows rules are being broken and the NCAA either can’t or won’t enforce their rules across the board.
When an organization isn’t capable of enforcing their own rules, they have to find a way to be able to enforce their rules, or they need to change their rules to something they can enforce.
We know Coach K and Duke has paid players going back to at least Corey Maggette.
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I guess it’s not cheating unless you get caught
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Again… none of this becomes a concern when we go for developmental players and through a developmental program.
Maybe this will be the final wake up call.
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drgnslayr said:
Again… none of this becomes a concern when we go for developmental players and through a developmental program.
Maybe this will be the final wake up call.
doubt it
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drgnslayr said:
Again… none of this becomes a concern when we go for developmental players and through a developmental program.
Maybe this will be the final wake up call.
What if I told you almost every player (think top 300) gets extra benefits to go to a school? Shoot, I even know guys who played D2 football who got cash on their visits.
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FarmerJayhawk said:
drgnslayr said:
Again… none of this becomes a concern when we go for developmental players and through a developmental program.
Maybe this will be the final wake up call.
What if I told you almost every player (think top 300) gets extra benefits to go to a school? Shoot, I even know guys who played D2 football who got cash on their visits.
Kstate players have nice cars due to their winning smile and hard work bro.
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BShark said:
FarmerJayhawk said:
drgnslayr said:
Again… none of this becomes a concern when we go for developmental players and through a developmental program.
Maybe this will be the final wake up call.
What if I told you almost every player (think top 300) gets extra benefits to go to a school? Shoot, I even know guys who played D2 football who got cash on their visits.
Kstate players have nice cars due to their winning smile and hard work bro.
I don’t remember if I’ve told this story here but back in the day, my sister was Rodney McGruder’s and Jordan Henriquez-Roberts’s neighbor in Manhattan. Rodney drive a very nice Ford pickup with custom rims. At least a $40k pickup. Always thought it was odd.
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BShark said:
Kstate players have nice cars due to their winning smile and hard work bro.
Yes! About 10 years ago I lived in Manhattan, and worked at Kstate on their irrigation systems. One of the buildings I would check at least every other day was the Bill Snyder building. That’s where they would meet and watch film. I couldn’t help but notice 3 brand new Chevy Avalanches painted in florescent paint. A orange, blue, and purple. I acted like I was fixing a sprinkler to see if I could see who they belonged to and it turned out to be 3 receivers. Their names I now forgot but there’s no way that they could have got those on their own.
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rockchalkwyo said:
BShark said:
Kstate players have nice cars due to their winning smile and hard work bro.
Yes! About 10 years ago I lived in Manhattan, and worked at Kstate on their irrigation systems. One of the buildings I would check at least every other day was the Bill Snyder building. That’s where they would meet and watch film. I couldn’t help but notice 3 brand new Chevy Avalanches painted in florescent paint. A orange, blue, and purple. I acted like I was fixing a sprinkler to see if I could see who they belonged to and it turned out to be 3 receivers. Their names I now forgot but there’s no way that they could have got those on their own.
Lolz. Shocks me exactly zero.
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I always come back to this … where is the book, the 60 minutes or outside the lines special, etc., that details even some of the extra benefits? The coach talking in the shadows with his voice altered? The former shoeco rep? Some players’ family members? Former mafia members talk more that these folks.
I think a lot of this is urban legend stuff based on assumptions.
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@HighEliteMajor
these guys?
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Hell, I’ve heard of a guy hiding a drive by gun for a juco running back who later played at Nebraska. It’s not just money they’re given, they can damn near get away with murder.
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@dylans did he end up in prison?
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HighEliteMajor said:
I always come back to this … where is the book, the 60 minutes or outside the lines special, etc., that details even some of the extra benefits? The coach talking in the shadows with his voice altered? The former shoeco rep? Some players’ family members? Former mafia members talk more that these folks.
I think a lot of this is urban legend stuff based on assumptions.
Nah. Just nobody cares about a few hundred here, a few hundred there. It’s a well-known fact in the industry UNLV left casino chips in recruits hotel rooms. People who cover this stuff know it, like Andrew Slater (who’s now doing mostly private work for pro clubs), our old friend Matt Scott, and the like. ESPN did a whole 30 for 30 on the old Pony Express. I’d say it’s quite naive to think after SMU got caught everyone just… stopped.
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@HighEliteMajor There’s multiple 30 for 30’s out there that detail the downfall of programs. Three right off the top of my head are on SMU (Pony Express era), Miami (The U, 80’s and 00’s), and there’s one on USC a d the Reggie Bush era I believe.
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Texas Hawk 10 said:
@HighEliteMajor There’s multiple 30 for 30’s out there that detail the downfall of programs. Three right off the top of my head are on SMU (Pony Express era), Miami (The U, 80’s and 00’s), and there’s one on USC a d the Reggie Bush era I believe.
SI did a big story on the DC Assault AAU program years ago as well. The founder always maintained players never got paid but people in the know around Dalonte Hill and KSU at the time either had no comment or had some variation of “use your brain, dude. Mike Beasley didn’t come to Manhattan for the view.”
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dylans said:
@approxinfinity Take solace, this team is overrated. The flaws will show up by conference season. The lack of elite talent at the 2/3 will be their March downfall. Villanova wiped out the best KU teams of the decade.
And Villanova has fared a lot worse than KU over the Jay Wright era which is fairly close to Self’s time at KU.
I wonder if KU fans would have been happy w/3 NITs in Wrights first 3 seasons, or a losing season in 2011/12. not sure how KU’s fan base would have acted after Wright suffered 7 second-round upsets (including the years right after winning the NCAA title).
