Official Player Declarations Thread
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@FarmerJayhawk I know there are more, but I remember Cole did too.
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@FarmerJayhawk Perpetuating the myth of unpaid labor are we?
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HighEliteMajor said:
@FarmerJayhawk Perpetuating the myth of unpaid labor are we?
I mean… if a job where you’re forbidden from making income is by definition unpaid… and scholarships aren’t income. I don’t pay taxes on it, it doesn’t go on my W2, and it doesn’t affect my income tax bill. At all. Neither does their minuscule stipend. If you really want to go nuts with it, you can say they’re compensated in kind, which is fair. But they’re certainly unpaid using the Haig-Simmons (economic) definition of income, consumption plus change in net worth. Student-athletes can’t accept any income that would increase their ability to consume, let alone increase wealth.
I’m an economist by trade and it sure as hell strikes me as unpaid since being a college athlete does not increase your ability to consume. But there is some non-monetary compensation, which fine I guess? If you really want to go nuts, slaves were given non-monetary compensation for their labor and nobody says they were paid.
tl;dr: compensation /=/ income. Athletes aren’t getting any monetary benefit from playing and can’t accept any monetary benefit from playing. Unless you have a different definition?
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@FarmerJayhawk So you actually invoked the word “slaves”? Think this through, my friend. The truth is out there. It all begins with the word “choice.”
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@FarmerJayhawk You’re right, college athletes are unpaid, but that slavery comparison is way out of line and way off base.
College athletes may not be paid financially for what they provide a school, but they certainly are not uncompensated for their services. These players, all sports and genders, are provided with thousands of dollars of free apparel from whoever sponsors the school, Adidas in the case of KU athletes. The retail price of an athletes regular wardrobe is easily $200+ dollars in the summer time and $350+ in the winter time.
A full scholarship athlete who stays all 4 years is being compensated with at least $125,000 in free tuition, room and board, and dining during those 4 years along with networking opportunities the vast majority of regular students don’t have access to.
Todd Reesing does not get the job he has working for David Booth’s company without being Todd Reesing.
I would have loved to have been able to afford anything Adidas released while I was a student at KU instead of shopping the clearance sections of the bookstore for KU apparel. I would have loved to have been able to network with David Booth and other high end boosters and alums while at KU, but I had to go the job fairs and compete with all the other regular students for intern and job opportunities after graduation.
A lot of these athletes on full ride scholarships are kids that wouldn’t have been able to go to college on their own otherwise because of financial issues beyond their own control.
Do I think there should be some changes made to the current system? Absolutely, but you cannot realistically tell me these athletes aren’t compensated for their services to their school.
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HighEliteMajor said:
@FarmerJayhawk So you actually invoked the word “slaves”? Think this through, my friend. The truth is out there. It all begins with the word “choice.”
I did! As a similar condition where they were compensated in-kind and not allowed to make income outside their little fiefdom. To be clear, comparing the plight of a KU player to that of a slave in the antebellum South isn’t great, but it’s an example to show that in-kind compensation is sufficient for a just labor market.
I get the choice argument in that they aren’t required to attend college. I’m a libertarian for chrissakes. But you’re talking about two different concepts. One, is the individual required to attend college to make a living playing basketball? No, of course not. So there’s nothing preventing the player from getting paid to play basketball. Two, if the individual attends college to play basketball, are they paid while attending? Also no.
It’s a normative question about whether the student-athlete should be paid in some form. My feeling is yes. They should be able to command what the market will pay from anyone who’s willing to pay them, including shoe companies, universities, the G League, NBA, international teams, or the freaking Globetrotters. The NCAA member institutions should be able to play in this sandbox too. The NCAA and member institutions take in billions in TV and merch revenue each year, so how about they use that to actually pay student-athletes what they could command if there wasn’t a price ceiling of zero?
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@Texas-Hawk-10 I literally said they were compensated, even in the tl;dr version. Unless “But there is some non-monetary compensation, which fine I guess?” isn’t clear enough for you.
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HighEliteMajor said:
This was my post way back in 2014 –
Thanks for the memory. I miss the more thorough analysis of posts of that period of Buckets. You were a big part of that.
Strong PoV. Sound analysis to support. And sure, they sometimes got some pointed (sometimes too personal) responses. But a lot gave a counter PoV that was helpful to better analyze the game and team we all love.
Also, know that it was a huge investment of time and thought on several posters part most notbly yourself and a few others. So thank!
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We should start a FAN Declaration thread. Except we’d have the same issues with any other team. Our society has deemed that a player’s potential is worth more than his actual worth. The players and their families are exceptionally greedy - I don’t buy the sob story that they’re poor and need the money - if they’ve been broke for 18 years, they can make it another 3 years and then they and their families really will be set for life (assuming they have a good agent and financial advisors).
I’d bet money (because I’m exceptionally greedy…) that if you polled 100 players that had gone the OAD route, at least 80 of them (the 80 that are sitting on the bench or playing in Madagascar) would tell current students - STAY IN COLLEGE. Have some fun. Enjoy your life. This is a JOB.
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Here’s something interesting about Lawson’s chances of sticking in the NBA.
He ranks #8 in WARP, Wins above Replacement level at 1.9.
6 of the 7 above him will likely go in the lottery. One, (Haliburton of ISU) will likely return to College.
We know his limitations as an athlete but analytics say he’ll do just fine in the NBA.
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Lawson feasts on matchups he won’t have in the NBA. I wish him the best, but it’s likely overseas.
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@BeddieKU23 The eye test says: “Negatory.”
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@nuleafjhawk Spot on.
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Oh well so it starts. - A poster of the Phog - -posted that someone had a screen shot of Grimes at KCI airport - - -Bags Packed.
OH NO ! ! ! ! - Quentin at KCI with bags packed? - -Well this is it – he is gone lmao. - -Couldn’t be going to Texas for extended weekend seeing his Mom or any other GaZillon things - - JUMPIN - - GEE – HOSSA - - -FATS - -surely not. - - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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Bag, adidas bag
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Not that there was much doubt, but Ochai posted this today.
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Woodrow said:
Not that there was much doubt, but Ochai posted this today.
IT DID NOT MEAN ANYTHING BAD
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nuleafjhawk said:
We should start a FAN Declaration thread. Except we’d have the same issues with any other team. Our society has deemed that a player’s potential is worth more than his actual worth. The players and their families are exceptionally greedy - I don’t buy the sob story that they’re poor and need the money - if they’ve been broke for 18 years, they can make it another 3 years and then they and their families really will be set for life (assuming they have a good agent and financial advisors).
I’d bet money (because I’m exceptionally greedy…) that if you polled 100 players that had gone the OAD route, at least 80 of them (the 80 that are sitting on the bench or playing in Madagascar) would tell current students - STAY IN COLLEGE. Have some fun. Enjoy your life. This is a JOB.
Seems to me calling players and families you know little about other than what you see on TV “exceptionally greedy” is a bit much. Also, maybe if you’ve been broke for ONE year you’d know “making another 3” isn’t really an option. The complete disregard for other people in this post is gross. Learn some empathy friend.
Also, people talk about potential vs. actual worth a lot. Truth is, a dollar now is worth more than a potential dollar in the future. I see posters writing about how this player or that should come back so they can make more money later, but there is absolutely ZERO guarantee of that. It’s completely in the realm of possibility that let’s say Grimes comes back, has a similar season to this one and his draft stock goes DOWN. Add to that potential for injury and yeah, I’m not going to judge (call greedy) any kid that makes a decision he/she thinks is best for their future.
You say “stay in college. Have some fun. Enjoy your life.” Maybe for that person it’s not fun and they are trying to enjoy their life.
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@benshawks08 Well, i had to take some time to think about what you said. After looking at it, i definitely could have worded it better. A LOT better. I said I had to take some time to think about it because when you mentioned the lack of empathy, it kind of got to me. In real life (as opposed to an anonymous basketball blog life) I do consider myself to be empathetic. I’m a Christian and I take the way I talk to and treat people very seriously. Having said that, that also means I’m a human and we tend to goof up sometimes. I slipped on that post and I apologize.
I’m still not a fan of the OAD thing, but I"ll try to really watch what I say from now on in regards to those kinds of things.
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@nuleafjhawk The only reason I think I responded really was because it surprised me coming from you. I don’t post on here a whole lot but I do keep up with the threads I find interesting. I’ve grown to expect certain things from certain posters and was caught off guard. Thanks for really thinking and not clapping back like anonymous posters are sometimes wont to do.
I’m a teacher so empathy is pretty important to me too. As I’m currently helping kids make decisions about going to college and what they can and can’t afford I’m ALWAYS amazed at the struggle so many of my kids go through that nobody ever sees. You can just never tell what another person is going through at any given moment. I see the value in a degree and do what I can to help my students understand that value but other needs have to be met first before anyone can go out and try to better themselves and improve their future earning power. The poorer you are, the less opportunity you have to invest in yourself and the future. Privilege of all kinds are real and a lot of our current systems are set up to continue to benefit those that have over those that don’t.
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Good job guys! I think one of the best examples of this is when Ben Mac left. I’ve never seen a kid so happy to be in school. Do you remember how he loved school? I’m sure a hot shower, his own bed, heating and ac, clothes, food, classes, help w/classes, surrounded by so much love was something he never had before! The day he left I cried so hard, he wanted to stay so bad, but his family was in such poverty, he didn’t have much choice to leave a place he loved like none other! He even bought a home here, and gave back to this community and his home town. This past year his brother passed away and I don’t think he’s on a team. He has been dealt some bad breaks. I love that kid! I pray somebody sees that talent.
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@nuleafjhawk @benshawks08 @Crimsonorblue22 Thanks to all of you for your insightful and thoughtful posts. We could use more of this on this board.
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@Crimsonorblue22 I can’t begin to tell you how many tears I’ve shed over guys leaving whether graduating or moving on to earn a living to help their families… There have been so many that just hated to see go. Ben Mac was certainly among them. I’ll join in your prayer that someone sees his talent.
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BMac is a Jayhawk forever.
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Updated to reflect the Moore transfer.
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Estimated odds to return:
- Lightfoot 99%
- Garrett 99%
- Agbaji 99%
- McCormack 99%
- Dotson 80%
- Grimes 65%
- KJ Lawson 50%
- Azubuike 40%
- De Sousa 33%
- D. Lawson 15%
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dylans said:
Estimated odds to return:
- Lightfoot 99%
- Garrett 99%
- Agbaji 99%
- McCormack 99%
- Dotson 80%
- Grimes 65%
- KJ Lawson 50%
- Azubuike 40%
- De Sousa 33%
- D. Lawson 15%
C. Moore 0%
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On Dotson- correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t the nba already overstocked with his type??
And our boy Frank is currently riding the pine with the Kings
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Talen Horton Tucker declared and reading his message about it, the decision seems final.
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@BShark umm who? Outside of Culver and Wiggington it didn’t seem like there was much NBA talent in the big12 this season.
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He’s going to be taken in the first round. Very good player that I was worried would stay at ISU for a couple years.
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Agree he will probably be a late first this year. Talented player with a linebacker body
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I only watched ISU play against KU, but he really didn’t make an impression. One of only 2 big12 players projected in the draft (depending on where you look); Culver the obvious best talent in the Big12 is the other. Dedrick is on the outside looking in just ahead of Dotson and Larry Bird Jr.
What do I know? I thought Devin Booker was a turd.
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http://www.nbadraftroom.com/p/2019-nba-mock-draft.html
All I know is that Carsen Edwards kid is a stud, and has nerves of steel. Yes, I know his 6’0", so if a lecture about short guys in the NBA is coming, I get it. Please deem me lectured.
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HighEliteMajor said:
http://www.nbadraftroom.com/p/2019-nba-mock-draft.html
All I know is that Carsen Edwards kid is a stud, and has nerves of steel. Yes, I know his 6’0", so if a lecture about short guys in the NBA is coming, I get it. Please deem me lectured.
He was a ton of fun to watch Saturday night. Tournament record 28 3’s in 4 games. He definitely put in the work this past off-season on his body. I think he sticks in the league, scoring is in his DNA
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A couple things to keep in mind when looking at early entrants. Starting this year, players can hire an agent and retain eligibility as long as they don’t take impermissible benefits. And the big one, players can return to school if they’re not drafted and maintain eligibility.
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Does anyone know if the season ending banquet is this weekend? Or is it after the final 4 since I guess Self might have to be there…
Just seems like that is usually when we hear some announcements of players leaving.
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FarmerJayhawk said:
And the big one, players can return to school if they’re not drafted and maintain eligibility.
Really? What’s to keep everyone from declaring just to see what will happen? Can you only declare twice?
If you’re drafted and don’t like the team can you go back to school? (I don’t think this is currently possible, but will it be?)
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dylans said:
FarmerJayhawk said:
And the big one, players can return to school if they’re not drafted and maintain eligibility.
Really? What’s to keep everyone from declaring just to see what will happen? Can you only declare twice?
If you’re drafted and don’t like the team can you go back to school? (I don’t think this is currently possible, but will it be?)
You can only withdraw twice. And to your last question, once you’re drafted you forfeit your eligibility. I can’t see the NCAA going the route of letting drafted players play unless it’s a draft and follow kind of thing that the NHL does.
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@FarmerJayhawk lol not realistic, but it might be a way for the ncaa stick it to the nba after the oad fiasco. I mean the oad rule is the NBA’s rule and the NCAA’s mess.
My twisted take - No need to kick talented kids out if all they did was get a job offer they declined.
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Jalen Lecque will try and go to the NBA from High School. Looks like he’ll have a good chance of getting approved to do so.
As my friend told me who worked with him this season, he has some bad influences in his corner. Huge gamble for this kid. Needs a lot of work.
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BeddieKU23 said:
Jalen Lecque will try and go to the NBA from High School. Looks like he’ll have a good chance of getting approved to do so.
As my friend told me who worked with him this season, he has some bad influences in his corner. Huge gamble for this kid. Needs a lot of work.
This is my fear with the OAD rule disappearing. After LeBron, there was a significant increase in the number of HS kids entering the draft and that was 15 years ago before YouTube and social media existed. Now, I fear that so many HS kids will have a false sense of how good they are and will ruin their lives by declaring for the draft, hiring an agent, taking impermissible benefits, being told they aren’t good enough for the NBA, not able to go to school, and not able to play pro ball anywhere.
The NBA and NCAA really need to work together on this so that kids don’t ruin their lives because I can already see 20+ HS kids entering the draft and doing everything to ruin their potential college careers when they aren’t drafted or invited to a Summer League team.
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@HighEliteMajor Carson Edwards is an interesting case. Kind of streaky.
Watch Carson and the rest of the purdue team lose their minds on the famous buzzer beater. 3-4 guys start chasing the ball down court instead of staying home and forcing a half court prayer. No way should that guy have been wide open. Heartbreaking loss for sure, but they can shoulder some of the blame for just losing their heads. And while I understand the strategy, the foul when winning by 3 in the last 10 seconds strategy took a major hit in that game.
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This is sort of one of those Mitchell Robinson type cases. A talented player with a lot of ears telling him one thing and reality being another. Lecque could have technically tried to enroll in College this past year but he wouldn’t have qualified at most schools. He went to Brewster for a reason (academics being the biggest). I’m not sure he would get qualified at NC St if he did go. Tennessee backed off at the end with those same concerns.
I agree that the OAD rule ending might cause an initial wave of players wanting to try and get to the league ASAP. I think it will take some time to know the year to year expectations of what kids these days may do. I think NBA GM’s have gotten smarter as well. I can’t imagine the College game will allow the HS ranks too many combine invites (they may have to extend the total) to meet the demand.
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If the NCAA will allow the undrafted HS kids to maintain their eligibility it may not be so bad. Especially with Bill being good at pulling kids late.
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dylans said:
If the NCAA will allow the undrafted HS kids to maintain their eligibility it may not be so bad. Especially with Bill being good at pulling kids late.
I think that’s where we’ll eventually wind up. Kids just have to maintain the NCAA’s version of amateur status.
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Simi Shittu going pro.
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OK , so as I’ve heard and the way I’m understanding it - -right now at this present time - -we have 1 Scholi available right? - -that’s after Braun & McBride right? - -Charlie’s Scholi right ?
With that being said when all is said and done - - what do we end with? - - I think we got some decent shots at some players - -I think we get ONE of these grad transfers maybe I think pretty decent shot at Stanley and Hurt - -and maybe one other of some type - I think we will still get 4 more to in some form or another – -WHAT YOU THINK GUYS? - - rock chalk all day long baby
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We have 2. Only had 12 players this yr
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@BeddieKU23 Unless I’ve missed something the only roster movement I know of is -Charlie -Vick +McBride +Braun. So back to 12 scholarship players (of 13) currently. 2-5 more guys will likely leave though.
