Lost to Two Post Players



  • That was basically the game. Cal didn’t even have to coach. At this point I doubt it happens but having Silvio would be great. Otherwise this is a first weekend exit team.



  • your right on one point anyways - -It boiled down to just more big bodies - -Dedic did all he could - - just no help on the interior. - Not having Doke really showed today - I was thinking right before it was mentioned man how much better this would of Been if he was there. – People need to forget about Silvio - don’t really knowhow many times we need to say - - it’s not happening - -NCAA will see to that - -no reason to keep thinking it Might -that is a done deal. - - but ya for sure pretty much what it boiled down to more height pretty much sums it out



  • I was going to start another topic on this topic. Yet here we are. I was going to call this Topic I’m not giving up on this team.

    I look at this team and I think man so much they have had to go through. Losing Desousa to crap, and Doka to a injury is tough. Does anybody doubt if Doka plays in this game KU wins? Yet this is basically a new team from scratch. Even HCBS has to adjust. No veteran play, no go to scorer. and just basically starting over. Yet there they are battling game after game. Sure it doesn’t look good right now, but I got a feeling by the end of the season this team can be pretty special. As the world caves in around this team, watch has they circle the wagons. Just watch.

    Come tournament time this team will be playing with house money. I see another final 4 run. After that it’s a crap shoot.



  • @DoubleDD No doubt in my biased KU mind. KU wins with the roster we expected to start the year.



  • If KU has Silvio and Doke they probably only have the ISU loss right now.



  • I still think that Bill Self needs to adjust his strategy with this team and it needs to be freeing Vick on the perimeter for catch and shoot to better open up his DLas inside game and drive to the hole.

    This needs to be go-to srategy whenever DLaw is being crowded and double/tripple teamed inside and the D is laying off our reluctant (or should be reluctant) outside shooters - think Dotson and Garrett and Grimes when he’s showing passivity - then you run action for Vick for catch and shoot.

    We ran some late in UK game and he hit some shots getting to 10, but it was too late. Adjust sooner. Open up the inside more. Tonight, Self let Vick get marginalized. Sure, some is on Vick, but if Self designs and calls action/plays for Vick, he will get going. He was invisible for much of the game and that is on Self. If the team isn’t doing what he wants and is calling, then thats another thing, but I dont see evidence that they ran stuff to accomplish that.

    That changes the dynamic of the game and takes some of the pressure off the inside game and their size advantage.



  • Mercy - - I guess I’m missing something here guys. - -Not getting that here but off 2-3 other KU sites they just beating the hell out of this team whaaaa? - -making comments like these players are not hungry enough – don’t want it ?very bad - -are you fricken kidding me? - -where are they getting this from? = - -these people don’t think they are trying? - -A person asking where Charlie was at? - -again really? - -I responded to that - -said Charlie is right where he should be - - ON THE BENCH. - -what am I missing - people talking Big Dave ought to be playing more - -are we watching the same game? - -Dave will be pretty solid - -but in the time he was in - did you see how hyper he was? - -I just don’t understand why these people are beating these guys up like they are

    Probably the one thing I would say - - Marcus is a slasher - -NOT a jump shooter should not be taking a lot of those shots - - he drives the ba;; - -no problem - -but his shot is just not there at one point I know he was like 1-8 - -but to just tear into these guys kind of pisses me off



  • Like I said earlier this season, we are going to lose the B12 at some point. Effort was fine tonight.



  • My expectations are very low at this point. With Doke, this was a possible elite 8/f4 team. Now, if Self gets a conference tie, that’d be a wildly successful season. This is literally the youngest/least talented team on the court Self has had. Wiggins’ 10-loss team had more guns.

    Our 6-man rotation is:

    three freshmen

    one sophomore

    one 40 year old semi-retired NBA player (what is Dedric, a sophomore or junior? does it matter?)

    and one senior head case.

    Extended Bench:

    Big Dave (high hopes, but another freshman)

    Chuck (argh)

    KJ (?)

    Mitch (wtf dude?)

    Silvio (dream team/semi sophomore)



  • DanR said:

    Mitch (wtf dude?)

    I’ve had some bad takes (it’s a forum and we are having fun) but I remember people thinking Mitch would be in the rotation. And that was assuming KU would be at full strength.

    alt text



  • @BShark Mitch had a role in a 2 big line up backing up Dedric. Now that KU is running a lone post player, Mitch isn’t a great fit in that line up as we saw last season. When KU does go with 2 bigs now, it’s not for a long enough period of time to need Mitch to play.

    If Silvio ever gets cleared, we might see more 2 big line ups and Mitch might get some minutes again. I do think we need to see more of Dave and Mitch though because KU won’t survive with Lawson playing 38 and 39 minutes like he has the past two games.

    I am happy to see Self use Garrett at the point to replace Dotson. That takes Moore out of the rotation as well which helps since Moore didn’t contribute much on either end of the floor.



  • I was unable to see the game traveling for work overseas. Looks as if I didn’t miss anything I didn’t think was possible before the game. FT’s, foul disparity and just being out muscled in the post. You add in the lack of shooting and you get this result on the road. Hope they have a short lived memory going to Texas now, this seems like a game that KU could let get away from them. This team lacks the makeup that usually is able to rebound on the road after a loss. We’ll see though, I’m hopeful for the best



  • @Bwag Vick needs to score 15-20 and DLaw the same for us to have a chance to win games. We had not Frank or Davonte to step up and take over the game like in years past. You are so right we need a lot more from Vick, and he just does not seem to have that aspect to his game.



  • Better Athletes. Fact of the matter is KY had far superior athletes at almost every position and it showed (can you imagine if Bill had trotted Charlie out there to try to guard one of those thoroughbreds? That would have been ugly). Yes, the engineered whistle helped them, and I love how hard Dedric tries and how much he cares (hello Vick, DLaw has only been at KU a year and a half!), but we just don’t have the horses this year.



  • Vick is what he is. A guy who disappears in big games. KU needs Dotson to step up as the number 2 scorer with Garrett being the 3rd scorer. Anything from Vick and Grimes at this point should be considered a bonus. Agbaji is coming along, but KU shouldn’t count on him for consistent scoring yet.



  • @KUSTEVE , @JayHawkFanToo The team misses you guys. Hope everything is cool.



  • Last night exposed our weaknesses more than any other game this season. But we just got beat by a better team.

    The article today by Jesse Newell highlights what many of us have said about Garrett, and simply rehashes what we saw last night. Our offense can be significantly disrupted by Garrett’s defender when that defender slacks off due to Garrett’s horrible shooting. In fact, the article quotes a UK defender, stating that their plan was to let Garrett shoot. That’s a sad reality. Last night, it was really a big deal.

    Where was Vick? Not sure why he doesn’t want to assert himself.

    We need Agbaji to be the #2 or #3 scorer. It’s just a matter of whether he can advance in that role. He’s the guy with his head on straight, and a guy that fits that role. Relying on Garrett to be a top scorer creates what we saw last night. And relying on Vick leaves one disappointed. Grimes, who knows?

    I think it’s best to start and embrace Agbaji, and say go get 'em.

    So where is this team? In a land of uncertainty.

    But it is not a team lacking in talent. Compared to the rest of the Big 12, it’s not even close (as usual). Rankings - Grimes 8, Dotson 21, Dedric 33, McCormack 35, Garrett 41, Vick 51, KJ 54, Moore 55, Mitch 107, Agbaji 145. Again, not even close.

    The fact of the matter is that the construct of the team is lacking. This is a team trying to play 4/1, but without the necessary shooting. And we have one critical team member (Garrett) that is worse than that – he’s an anti-shooter, which creates other issues in certain games. Not all the time. Just in games that replicate advancement in the NCAA tourney, like last night.

    We need SDS in the worst way now. There is a reason this team was set to play 3/2.

    And I didn’t mention Grimes. I’ve watched a lot of KU basketball. Of all of the more highly touted players coming in, he’s the one that appears to be most out of sync. Not even really in the flow of what is going on offensively. Just the eye test. Odd more than anything to me.

    The game last night was an eye opener. UK was plainly the better team. SDS is critical for such a match-up. Or … the bit “or” … we need to be able to hit three pointers. To be ready to do that in March, it seems to me that Agbaji is the best hope there. I obviously could be wrong there. But when I look for a guy with “it”, he seems the best candidate to add to Dedric and Dotson.



  • wissox said:

    @KUSTEVE , @JayHawkFanToo The team misses you guys. Hope everything is cool.

    I spoke with @JayHawkFanToo . He’s doing ok, just needed a break to focus on other things.



  • Last night shows what good teams will do to this team with Garrett playing heavy minutes. UK just didn’t guard him, and he couldn’t deliver.

    That meant Garrett’s man was always the helper, meaning Vick and Grimes rarely were left open for three. It’s a trickle down.

    Kentucky showed the blueprint for how KU’s season will end. A 1-10 shooting performance from Garrett as KU struggles to score and stumbles in the second half. That’s what’s coming if this rotation doesn’t change.



  • @justanotherfan great point. I really wish Garrett could shoot. The big issue is that the other options are much worse atm. Self is between a rock and a hard place.



  • @BShark

    The only option is to stick with other options that may cost us games now, but pay off down the line. Whether that’s KJ, Grimes, Agbaji or someone else, KU has to find a way to keep teams from sagging into the paint.

    I’m not sure KU can play 4 out a lot with Garrett because he can’t punish opposing 4s if they stay in the paint. UK had the perfect plan against that lineup. Calipari was prepared. We need a lineup to go to if another team does that, or if another team goes small and guards Garrett with a smaller player.



  • Other teams have done the same thing, but he has been able to drive, he couldn’t finish last pm. The only guy they will be on is Vick.



  • @Crimsonorblue22

    Other teams have sagged off Garrett. Kentucky flatly wasn’t guarding him. PJ Washington said their gameplan was to not even challenge his jumpshot attempts.

    Its the same thing Oregon did with Landen Lucas. They just ignored him defensively.

    Its what VCU did with Morningstar.

    We have seen this movie before. It takes a bold strategy to actually not guard someone. Teams have been playing off Garrett, but you can drive on a guy playing off you. You can’t drive a guy if he’s just going to wait for you to get into the paint. There are several clips already on Twitter of Washington with a foot already in the paint when Garrett had the ball.

    UK took the drive away because they just didn’t guard him. His man was already where he wanted to go. That makes floaters and layups tough because you can’t create an angle to get around the defender.

    When a guy is four feet off you, you can get a running start and drive. They are too far away to pressure you, but close enough that you can create an angle. That’s what Iowa State and Texas did. There were times where Washington was 8 or 9 feet off Garrett. You’re just running into the defense at that point. Even if you get a running start, they have plenty of time to react.



  • If Garrett would have made the shots he took inside 5 feet it’s a different game. He missed at least 5 of those. Just simple runners / floaters that he needs to capitalize on.

    Self is going to play Garrett 30 minutes a game because as he said we can’t play without him. They are going to have to find a way to score with him on the floor and defenders sagging.

    Vick needs to be way more aggressive than he has been. I am not sure what happened to him but he had two great takes early in the game last night and then disappeared. I really think Self needs to run plays for him early in the game to get him engaged. It shouldn’t be that way but it is with him.

    Right now our half court offense is trying to force the ball to Dedric and then if that fails we take a crap shot with the clock running down.



  • @justanotherfan I get what you mean! But he missed some shots that he’s made the last 4 games, thought he should’ve made. He’s definitely a liability playing the 4 when he can’t hit an outside shot.



  • Ok, I’ll say it once…you can’t run a 4 out without shooters. The dribble drive is too easy to cut off. We are NOT helping our shooters get good looks. There is no “team” offense when the only play is get it to Dedric, and make him take on as many as 3 defenders at once. Towards the end, we started setting some screens on the perimeter, and lo and behold, we start making 3s. The ball never moved on offense, and when we did pass the ball around, we kept throwing poor passes that gave Tucky time to recover. We have to either start setting screens on the perimeter ( like Dook used to do ), or we’re in for a long rest of the season.



  • @KUSTEVE You don’t even need to do that much screening, passing quickly to the second, third, or even fourth side, that can get open looks and easy drives as well. Problem is this team just isn’t great at passing and sharing the ball.



  • Hey, we found KUSTEVE!



  • @HighEliteMajor @Crimsonorblue22 For the first time this year, Garrett tried to drive on guys that were bigger, stronger, quicker, and better athletes than any other player he’d tried to drive it on this year. And in fact, they were HEA’s - High Elite Athletes - better athletes than he is. The outcome was blocks, rushed shots, forced shots because he did not quite have the angle he’s been getting on the MEA’s - Mid Elite. You could see on every play they were just slightly ahead of MG. His effort and ideas were good, he was just not quick enough or jumping high enough to outplay the HEA. I just hope he will keep doing what he was doing in B12 play and not have confidence interuptus, because his inability to hit the outside shot was glaring. Other teams will play the sag on him, so he will have to hit a couple line drives (I think you know what I mean by that) to open the driving lanes back up.



  • @Fightsongwriter That’s a great point. He was denied at the rim a number of times.

    My view on this is no different than say the B-Star, or Traylor, or Lucas discussions. When you hit a certain level of competition, certain things don’t fly. In this case, high talent with skill defending the rim. Garrett might be effective with his form of offense 4 out of 5 games, or even 9 out of 10. But it’s that tricky one on the second weekend, or Sweet 16, or Elite Eight that get you.

    I mention Garrett with those prior three players because, in Garrett’s case, his game has a significant hole (shooting). The other three it was more about talent ceilings and being cast in significant roles, which is maybe a bit different.



  • I really thought he had a few open looks he should have made, maybe he was anticipating a swat. Then again, I’ve been wrong before, just don’t tell my boys.🤫



  • Ultimately, a lot of what happened Saturday isn’t Garrett’s fault. The ball should not be in his hands nearly as much as it is. He is being used as a second or third option when he should be a fifth option. He has had some good games of late, but a lot of times, as @Fightsongwriter pointed out, slightly better defenders changed what he was able to accomplish.

    If Garrett is going to play heavy minutes and a team isn’t guarding him (i.e, the Kentucky strategy), you have to move him off the perimeter. Put him along the baseline, where he can cut and rebound rather than on the wing, where his man can disrupt entries, deter drives, etc. Basically, make his man guard the baseline instead of guarding the lane. That gives driving lanes to our guys from the top and the opposite side. It cuts the floor in half, but it also keeps the extra defender honest, and makes Garrett a threat on every weakside rebound. That’s how you punish teams for not guarding him.



  • @justanotherfan Garrett reminded me Saturday of Tyshawn going to the rim against Tucky, and Frank going to the rim against Tucky. Not sure why we keep sending our guards to the rim against them. Most of the time, they have 3 guys standing right at the rim, waiting to knock the shot away.



  • @justanotherfan The problem was devon got in foul trouble and he had to play the point. Thus ball in his hands up top. No way he was running Charlie out there to get slaughtered. But if 11 is in the game them you are 100%. Get him coming off curls downhill to the rim.



  • @Fightsongwriter Yes having 3 terrible foul calls on Devon definitely hurt our chances, the offense just looks better with him on the floor.



  • @kjayhawks Seemed like half our fouls were touch fouls but they had to draw blood to get called.


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