Ochai Needs to Start
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Kcmatt7 said:
BeddieKU23 said:
Just feels so similar to Newman’s struggles last year. We expected the world of Malik and he really disappointed for most of the season but then the light came on and look what he did for that team by season’s end, indispensable. Not in the Final 4 without his heroics.
Fast forward a year and we expected the world from Grimes. Maybe Grimes and Self need a day to just clear the air and figure some things out. His play has been below expectations but we’ve seen time and time again how players figure it out at some point under the right motivation. I still think Self has some work to do to find what triggers Q the most. That’s when he’ll get the most out of him.
Agbaji has it now. Play the kid with the confidence. Interchange depending on game matchup and in-game performance. How many coaches have two kids they can push against each other like that.
This is my feelings. It isn’t like Bill thinks Q can’t do it. Or else he wouldn’t keep rolling him out there.
Bill is just searching for the right buttons to push. Two more months to figure it out.
Honestly what might be best for him is basically sitting him an entire game or two and telling him to just let him get some confidence from practice for a week or two. Put him on the practice squad and tell him to just make plays, don’t think. Make him go up against Garrett on both sides. If he can defend Garrett drives and he can score on Garrett, that’s when you know you can play him again.
CJ just posted an article on the Athletic about this.
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BShark said:
Kcmatt7 said:
BeddieKU23 said:
Just feels so similar to Newman’s struggles last year. We expected the world of Malik and he really disappointed for most of the season but then the light came on and look what he did for that team by season’s end, indispensable. Not in the Final 4 without his heroics.
Fast forward a year and we expected the world from Grimes. Maybe Grimes and Self need a day to just clear the air and figure some things out. His play has been below expectations but we’ve seen time and time again how players figure it out at some point under the right motivation. I still think Self has some work to do to find what triggers Q the most. That’s when he’ll get the most out of him.
Agbaji has it now. Play the kid with the confidence. Interchange depending on game matchup and in-game performance. How many coaches have two kids they can push against each other like that.
This is my feelings. It isn’t like Bill thinks Q can’t do it. Or else he wouldn’t keep rolling him out there.
Bill is just searching for the right buttons to push. Two more months to figure it out.
Honestly what might be best for him is basically sitting him an entire game or two and telling him to just let him get some confidence from practice for a week or two. Put him on the practice squad and tell him to just make plays, don’t think. Make him go up against Garrett on both sides. If he can defend Garrett drives and he can score on Garrett, that’s when you know you can play him again.
CJ just posted an article on the Athletic about this.
Link? I don’t see it.
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The problem with Grimes, the disturbing part, is the stat line. Look at it. 19 minutes – all zeroes (except for one steal). The invisible man. As if he didn’t exist. One steal away from “190000000” as some box scores would indicate. His PER is sub-10.
I’m sorry, if in 19 minutes you have no rebounds, no assists, no points, not even a foul to indicate some aggressiveness, you’re on a different planet. There is no glue guy discussion with him. No energy guy claim. No post feeder extraordinaire. Just what we see.
This might be the bottom on a bad trend line. However, like a stock with good fundamentals, you might think twice before selling. In fact, if this were a stock, one might look to buy low. This would be an historical flameout if this doesn’t turn around, or he bolts after this season.
I’m still patient, and positive, but I think changing the dynamic a bit would help.
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The backup QB is always the fan favorite.
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That stat line is just awful, even worse for a guard that gets the ball on almost every possession. Outside of a steal and deflection he hit rock bottom last night. I think this is the perfect opportunity for Self to get Q in the office and hash it out. Whatever Marcus Garrett found that has transformed his season is exactly what Grimes needs.
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If he finally snapped, I’d say, “Well, about time, dude. Now go get 'em!”
Grimes was banging around pretty hard under the basket against the WVU guys. You could tell it frustrated him, but I don’t think he’s afraid of contact. His problem is definitely in his head. Probably never had to have a chip on his shoulder before in his life.
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HighEliteMajor said:
The problem with Grimes, the disturbing part, is the stat line. Look at it. 19 minutes – all zeroes (except for one steal). The invisible man. As if he didn’t exist. One steal away from “190000000” as some box scores would indicate. His PER is sub-10.
I’m sorry, if in 19 minutes you have no rebounds, no assists, no points, not even a foul to indicate some aggressiveness, you’re on a different planet. There is no glue guy discussion with him. No energy guy claim. No post feeder extraordinaire. Just what we see.
This might be the bottom on a bad trend line. However, like a stock with good fundamentals, you might think twice before selling. In fact, if this were a stock, one might look to buy low. This would be an historical flameout if this doesn’t turn around, or he bolts after this season.
I’m still patient, and positive, but I think changing the dynamic a bit would help.
It’s especially concerning considering he was a “do it all” guy in HS. And thought of as a pretty explosive athlete.
You would have thought he’d at least be able to contribute something positive every single game. But last game speaks for itself. I thought he was starting to figure it out a couple of weeks ago before he regressed again.
I would think he and Bill are actively working on the problem on the side. They are talking, communicating, and developing some sort of plan to get him to the point he is a meaningful contributor, if not a game changer down the road.
I just don’t believe that Grimes is incapable of playing at this level. He is fundamentally a good player (good shooting form and handles). He has good size. He has proven he has good vision. We know he’s athletic. There just appears to be absolutely no aggressive bone in his body. Everything points to it being mental. Perhaps simply a mental block based around effort. He may think he is going 100%, but he’s not. I’ve seen guys like that my entire life. They play hard until they get to a level of effort that becomes uncomfortable. At which point, they become easy pickings.
It could be that he doesn’t know his role on this team so he feels lost and his confidence is shot. It could be that he’s so afraid of making a mistake he’s not letting his instincts take over.
Whatever it is, two months. It is very important that Grimes becomes at the very least, a contributor, in the next two months. Because as we saw from KJ and Ochai, Grimes will absolutely need to get minutes for this team to be successful in March.
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Only downside to starting Ochai, and to me it’s a big one, is he’s a great burst of energy off the bench. There is not another guard that brings that so I’d say give him as many minutes as he can handle but start someone else
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@Kubie like Kevin young! I don’t know if the best thing for grimes is to not start him?? Self will know. Grimes has at least stopped plowing over guys. He really lacks, what I call the reaction gene. If you have it, you know what I mean. By the time he makes a pass the D has covered the guy, or they have stepped in the passing lane, his man gets by him. You have to react not think. Marcus is really good at this. Dg was great. Last year I knew Malik was a great shooter. I don’t think grimes is the same. I do think he can drive and make jumpers, not a great 3 pt shooter, based on USA games. Another year or 2, he will be. I didn’t see him act up on the bench but I was up really high. We have great coaches that will work w/him. I hear he’s a great kid, I’m sure his world is falling apart.
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Well I can remember some posters here making the argument that one of Self’s biggest (perceived) failings is he “plays favorites” to win every game in place of giving the (percieved) more “talented” freshmen valuable minutes to learn thru growing pains and mistakes, which then comes to supposedly hurt the team come March.
I don’t have stats here to put this in real context, but it sure feels like Grimes has been given more than ample playing time. Don’t think this is Selfs fault this time.
Is it me, Or does Grimes just not look that althetic?.. (I never looked at his high school hilites for any context) To me he looks more or less average athletically at best, a tad slow, and sluggish more than explosive. Selden ( oft compared to Grimes) as we remember struggled his first year, but to me he always showed athleticism. The potential seemed there.
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Kcmatt7 said:
BShark said:
Kcmatt7 said:
BeddieKU23 said:
Just feels so similar to Newman’s struggles last year. We expected the world of Malik and he really disappointed for most of the season but then the light came on and look what he did for that team by season’s end, indispensable. Not in the Final 4 without his heroics.
Fast forward a year and we expected the world from Grimes. Maybe Grimes and Self need a day to just clear the air and figure some things out. His play has been below expectations but we’ve seen time and time again how players figure it out at some point under the right motivation. I still think Self has some work to do to find what triggers Q the most. That’s when he’ll get the most out of him.
Agbaji has it now. Play the kid with the confidence. Interchange depending on game matchup and in-game performance. How many coaches have two kids they can push against each other like that.
This is my feelings. It isn’t like Bill thinks Q can’t do it. Or else he wouldn’t keep rolling him out there.
Bill is just searching for the right buttons to push. Two more months to figure it out.
Honestly what might be best for him is basically sitting him an entire game or two and telling him to just let him get some confidence from practice for a week or two. Put him on the practice squad and tell him to just make plays, don’t think. Make him go up against Garrett on both sides. If he can defend Garrett drives and he can score on Garrett, that’s when you know you can play him again.
CJ just posted an article on the Athletic about this.
Link? I don’t see it.
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Bosthawk said:
Well I can remember some posters here making the argument that one of Self’s biggest (perceived) failings is he “plays favorites” to win every game in place of giving the (percieved) more “talented” freshmen valuable minutes to learn thru growing pains and mistakes, which then comes to supposedly hurt the team come March.
I don’t have stats here to put this in real context, but it sure feels like Grimes has been given more than ample playing time. Don’t think this is Selfs fault this time.
Is it me, Or does Grimes just not look that althetic?.. (I never looked at his high school hilites for any context) To me he looks more or less average athletically at best, a tad slow, and sluggish more than explosive. Selden ( oft compared to Grimes) as we remember struggled his first year, but to me he always showed athleticism. The potential seemed there.
He needs to lose some weight.
It’s crazy, so frequently when KU finally gets a top 10 recruit they get hurt, don’t live up to expectations etc… Selby, Diallo, Alexander, Selden…
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@BShark I think diallo and Alexander would have been better w/more yearS! Especially Diallo.
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@BShark any reason why Mitch didn’t play at all?
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@BigBad Apples and oranges.
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My perspective on the situation is that Self has to weigh the odds of do I not start him and take a chance on crushing his confidence even further, or do I continue to start him and try and let him work thru it and maybe slow the team a little?
I vote for the latter. Reason 1: It will hopefully help him to continue to learn on the fly and slowly gain more confidence. Reason 2: As @kubie stated, Ochai brings great energy to the team coming off the bench. Every successful team needs that type of player. If Ochai starts, who is going to come off the bench and give us any energy? There is no one.
Hopefully we can continue just like against ISU and Q can improve and eventually take off, and Ochai can continue to come in and give us those much needed spurts. Go Hawks. Beat Calamari!!!
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BShark said:
Crimsonorblue22 said:
@BShark any reason why Mitch didn’t play at all?
Not good at basketball.
If Mitch can’t hit a 3 there really is very little time for him in the 4-1. What can Mitch do that Garrett or Big Dave can’t do better?
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@Bosthawk you’re right. Selden seems like a stretch at this point. Hopefully Grimes can get Hudyized effectively.
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approxinfinity said:
BShark said:
Crimsonorblue22 said:
@BShark any reason why Mitch didn’t play at all?
Not good at basketball.
If Mitch can’t hit a 3 there really is very little time for him in the 4-1. What can Mitch do that Garrett or Big Dave can’t do better?
Not much. He should have redshirted.
Mitch has played 2 minutes in all of conference play.
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@Big-Clyde52 How could it fall any further (his confidence)? He is at rock bottom. His negative energy, poor body language, and his timid play have no business on the court starting or finishing a game. Start the game with #30 power energy and maybe we don’t fall behind like we have been doing of late. Let Q try to gain his confidence back through short bursts of play that wind up positive. If it is another short negative burst, then it lessens the damage and Bill and pull him back out. KJ can bring some energy, and while his D is not much better than Q, he has actually created positive plays (rebounds on both ends, put backs, and a couple decent buckets). Far, FAR, more than Q had brought to the table.
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@Fightsongwriter That was tongue in cheek.
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@BShark Like I said in another post, benching Grimes now would destroy whatever confidence he has left. He can still have reduced minutes as a starter if Agbaji is playing well. Also, Agbaji off the bench gives KU an option for a high energy guard to bring in as a spark if KU gets off to a slow start.
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@BigBad Ah ha…sarcasm alert!!!
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Starting Agbaji the second half, if Grimes doesn’t produce in the first half, could be a good compromise strategy. Like last game.
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@BShark We tend to measure a player’s worth by his in-game stats. Mitch’s contributions may be seen on the practice floor and by his encouragement during games.
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I’m not saying to kick Mitch off the team or anything, he has value. He’s just not as good as other options and Self has tightened his rotation.
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Grimes’ problem is inside his head.
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Grimes is a no-show, and I’m (yeah, I’ve seen more than enough) going to call it – he is not going to pan out as was expected, and will be, more or less, a bust (both KU and NBA wise). It is - unless Grimes totally balls in the UK matchup - all but official that Agbaji is going to start after this Saturday. And I agree with the above post, Grimes seems to be slow and unathletic. You know who he reminds me of? … Yeah, I’m a bigtime Rock Chalker… Sean Pierson without an outside shot.
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@Marco Just some random thoughts on athletes in programs at this level. As many have stated on here (and I think we all agree), high school ball is so vastly different from the college game. How quickly a player adjusts to it is different for every player. We read the rankings and reports and expect each of them to perform at his previous level. What we do not see is what is going on inside these players that allows some of them to take right off and others to struggle. The essence of coaching is finding the correct buttons to push. And even more importantly is when the athlete also pushes the same buttons.
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As much as I really like Agbaji, I also want to be patient with Grimes and explore options to make him better. We can do both. We have enough minutes so long as none are given to Moore. Patience is really important. Players develop differently. I really want us to continue to invest minutes in Grimes’ development, and getting him to the right spot. We’ve seen the flashes.
He could be our best player next season. Or he could have Newman impact in the tourney (or something short of that, but still excellent – Newman was psycho in the tourney).
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HighEliteMajor said:
He could be our best player next season. Or he could have Newman impact in the tourney (or something short of that, but still excellent – Newman was psycho in the tourney).
Maybe next year’s tourney. Having just watched Newman highlights from last year’s tourney … That is a TALL order. The dude was unbelievably money. I don’t think Newman ever doubted himself (ever). I’m afraid Grimes doubts himself.
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@approxinfinity We forget that 30 years ago, no one expected very many freshman to contribute very much (remember the quote that the best thing about a freshman is that he would be a sophomore?). Our expectations have risen substantially as college ball moved inexorably into the OAD era. Some kids may simply still have the longer learning curve.
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Marco said:
Grimes is a no-show, and I’m (yeah, I’ve seen more than enough) going to call it – he is not going to pan out as was expected, and will be, more or less, a bust (both KU and NBA wise). It is - unless Grimes totally balls in the UK matchup - all but official that Agbaji is going to start after this Saturday. And I agree with the above post, Grimes seems to be slow and unathletic. You know who he reminds me of? … Yeah, I’m a bigtime Rock Chalker… Sean Pierson without an outside shot.
It seems wild, but really talented players tend to thrive against superior teams. He played well against MSU. Don’t be surprised if Grimes has a better than usual game.
Also, don’t look now but MSU is ranked over both KU and UK.
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@HighEliteMajor There is absolutely no reason to give any minutes to Moore. He is small, not good on offense, terrible on defense, and he mishandles the ball a lot. So I agree we can give Q time. But taking him out of the starting line up may actually be just what Dr. HEM is ordering. It might not ruin is confidence as so many on the board are saying. What if it takes the pressure off?
I don’t recall, but when Newman was in his early season, did not HCBS take him out of the starting line up a few times? Also, he had 2 years of D1 under his belt, with 1 year in the program. Huge difference for Malik.
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@Fightsongwriter The Newman comparison is very interesting. Self did bench Newman last year. This was all related to the discussion about Newman apparently failing to do what Self was asking of him, effort-wise. Self had mentioned about guys not buying in. It was obvious he was referring to Newman in part (I think Vick was another) because he pulled Newman from the lineup. The article (link below) mentions how Self changed his message and may have contributed to Newman’s improved play. After benching, Self put Newman back in and “threw his confidence behind” him, as the story suggests.
A quote from Self in the story from last year, “What’s best for our team is having our five best players out there playing the vast majority of the minutes.”
This provides a very interesting cross-section. I always love it when Self’s own words support a suggested premise.
So now, who is our best player, Agbaji or Grimes? But on the other hand, could he take the Newman path – bench Grimes, let Grimes play a different role, then reinsert him under the premise of throwing his confidence behind him? Self has suggested that Grimes playing will help his development – I’m all in on that. Another of those comments from Self that supports a long-standing premise that’s been suggested here.
It was mentioned by @BShark that perhaps Grimes starting tonight is about “optics” – not making it a story that the top recruit gets put on the bench in a high profile game. I think that might be correct. Remember when Oubre was playing so poorly, not starting, but then Self started him against UK? That was clearly about optics – Oubre was out of the starting lineup the next game vs. Rider. In fact, I would agree with the approach to start Grimes tonight in the high profile national game even though I like Agbaji to start. But after tonight, maybe Self removes Grimes from the starting lineup for a while, and sees how that works. As you mentioned, it might be a change in “pressure”, a different perspective. Lots of psychology at play.
https://www.kansascity.com/sports/college/big-12/university-of-kansas/article201608609.html
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@HighEliteMajor And I’m sure that the psychology of dealing with athletes at this level is extremely difficult at times, if not almost all of the time.
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Post script…since Q played a bit better I bet he starts. But I still stand by my Best 5 premise.
11, 30, 24, 0, and 1
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@Fightsongwriter Q will continue to start as Self has said. Ochai is prob just happy to be playing and wouldn’t complain. There maybe a few games that Ochai gets more minutes and/or starts after halftime.
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Sitting here listening to the sports show - -talking about problems for KU , they was asking if Hayes could give Dedric problems - -the response was any athletic big man that could jump gives Dedric problems, 0 - - Talked about when Doke was in they thought that would give more space to work with , yet when he was still on - - that they struggles together - -the he goes out so they think well maybe now he will have more room - -well they now talking about since Garrett in the line up - -teams backing off of him daring him to shoot the ball and doubling down helping on Lawson - -causing problems.
They were asking if UK had given other teams the blue print on how to defend KU because of Garett in the line up how they can back off and help double down low.
Then maybe Coach needs to change and start Ochai - got to be something guys I mean make the defense at least respect that other player. - -Garett is great on the defensive end - -he can drive on the offensive end - -yet if he can hit a jumper? - - make the switch keep the D honest
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Starting Ochai is a reasonable thing, I agree. Although it might get in Grimes’ head, it just might serve as a swift kick in the behind. And I noticed Grimes last Saturday, while Ochai finished the game, didn’t he? HCBS says it’s not who starts, but who finishes?
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Ochia is starting I think in place of Vick
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He is
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Wild
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@BShark start a game thread
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Please
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@Crimsonorblue22 Well I was right but not what I expected. Maybe Ochai instead of Grimes. He just cant shoot. Grimes and Och played pretty well together actually.
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This might actually be the best postgame thread the way he played
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Whoops. Meant garrett
