The Disappointment.

  • I am so disappointed. I have lived under a false illusion. I was naive. I believed. I had faith.

    While I have enjoyed the banter in past years related to Bill Self’s on court decisions, I have held one thing to be true – we have a coach of extremely high character, one that we can be proud of.

    I don’t believe any more.

    I’ve read comments here, and around the twisted world of social media. I am just flat embarrassed by what some KU fans will say to spin this. Look at the FBI thread here. Spinning the information to try and hold on to the illusion of innocence, or what can be “proven.”

    Guys, we all need to get real. We are not a lawyer for the head of a crime family. The issue is not whether we can get off, or pay off a juror, or not get punished. I hope everyone grasps that.

    We all need to understand that it is over. We were in one place before this trial began, and now we’re in another place now. Different worlds. One world was predictable and easy. The other world is laced with land mines and dangerous.

    One of my fears in this prosecution was that it could target the pristine guy. The one that was held beyond reproach. The guy who seemed to be the perfect coach. Why? To get that big time conviction. To make the news. And to destroy the NCAA (whom a certain segment despises – the misguided “exploitation of athletes” crowd). I’m not surprised.

    The question was, why bother targeting Gatto, etc? Very small fish. And I answered the question at the time. To get to the more important targets.

    Everything changes now. Would anyone be surprised if this thing takes on a life of its own? That the media firestorm becomes immense? That the KC Star makes this their focal point?

    Would you be surprised if by season’s end Bill Self is not the head coach at Kansas?

    Heck, would it surprise you if Kansas demanded return of salary from Bill Self based on a breach of contract?

    Would you be surprised if a criminal charge is filed against Bill Self for conspiring to defraud the University of Kansas? Or first against an assistant coach as the appetizer?

    Would it surprise you if there is a nasty little wiretap floating around out there?

    To the point I made in one of my first posts after this entire story broke last spring – the prosecutor could really be focusing on the high profile target and developing the case. Getting his witnesses. If the prosecutor gets convictions, do you think it possible that the newly convicted felons, on the precipice of a stint doing federal time, might spill the beans?

    What should be concerning is the prosecutor’s desires here. And the motives of the prosecution.

    But irrespective of a future prosecution, this could still mushroom into a disgusting spectacle for the program we love.

    Nothing should surprise you.

    And please don’t suggest that there is no “proof” that Bill Self knew that Adidas paid players. This insults everyone’s intelligence.

    And please don’t suggest there is “no way” any of the scenarios I referenced above could happen.

    I can assure you, we are entering a very new arena. It is extremely treacherous. There are many twists and turns to come.

    But whatever. We’re along for the ride, like it or not.

    Regardless, I will never, ever look at Bill Self the same way again. When you truly believe something about a person, and that belief is shattered, it just makes you feel stupid.

    It is over. And I am wildly disappointed.

  • Is this real ??

  • I agree with some of what you are saying and it needs to be said, but I’m surprised with your candy coated view of college athletics. I’m not stunned by this, but then I was always fairly confident about things that happened at KU, so I didn

    Self isn’t going anywhere unless he gets convicted of something.

  • @BShark My candy coated view of Bill Self. A man I viewed as having a level of integrity beyond reproach.

  • “The misguided “exploitation of athletes” crowd.”

    You’re definitely right that some people are misguided.

  • @HighEliteMajor Fair enough. I was always pretty sure about some things that happened at KU under Self. So I assumed he wasn’t really clean by NCAA standards. But I also don’t think it’s a big deal because these kids obviously have more value than a scholarship. I know I’ve been beating that drum for awhile, but that’s all but impossible to deny now, right?

    This is systemic because the system is broken. Clean because a kid wants to go there recruitments are the exception. This happens across all levels of college athletics, schools and recruits of any and all rankings. Even kids that are in-state or have connections to the program will often take because they know it’s on the table.

    I particularly disagree that KU is in a different place now. Maybe for a short time publicly, but KU has always been deep in the crootin’ waters. You don’t field a good team if you aren’t.

    Like I said previously, KU players are never wanting for anything. Even the kids from poor families have new cars. I don’t think that’s a problem though. The sell tickets and apparel for the university. College athletics are major sport, hardly truly amateur.

  • @Woodrow This isn’t a fascist website, like Fakebook, Youtube and Twitter. We don’t delete differing opinions on Buckets. We allow practically every knee jerk reaction you could imagine, from fools naming Malik Newman as a cancer on the team to calling our coach a whole litany of names over the years. Maybe this time they’ll put their money where their sanctimonious mouth is, and decide they are just too good to a KU fan. We can all dream, can’t we?

  • Also, we will see very soon, but I don’t think anyone gets convicted in the current trial. I think the defense did a reasonable job creating a “shadow of doubt”. Now, there will be more cases to come with those other assistants. Maybe the NCAA sham will finally be over but it’s way too early to say.

  • I continue to be amazed by posts like @KUSTEVE’s. And amazed that folks approve of this stuff. By my count already, four upvotes, one by a site administrator.

    Is this really what we want on this site?

    Someone takes time to create a thread, on an important topic that impacts the program we love, and this is the type of garbage that is acceptable here?

    From a guy that goes back to, a guy who worked hard to get material on this site as it started, and a guy that made continued efforts to post significant basketball related analysis for years, it’s really just sad.

    Stuff like this begs a response, but what happens is the response throws the thread into chaos. If you respond, then we get threats of locking down the thread, which is exactly what folks like @KUSTEVE want.

    Again, is this what we want from this site?

  • Differing view points on the situation are fine, and this thread doesn’t need to be locked.

  • @BShark I’m sorry, but how is @KUSTEVE’s post a differing opinion?

  • I didn’t say it was, I’m just saying threads shouldn’t be locked because of that.

    STEVE is just giving you shit.

  • @HighEliteMajor Sometimes upvotes reflect approval of everything someone says, or maybe just part. Sometimes they simply mean to acknowledge that someone has said something different. I have often approved posts that I disagreed with or that disagreed with me, provided the comment reflected an effort to communicate.

    Red Rooster, of course, upvoted everybody, every post, and it was funny how his doing that gave a feeling of being in a group.

  • @BShark No, it’s not giving me sh**. So when I respond, is that me just giving him sh**? We’ve been there before. Somehow when I stick back up @KUSTEVE’s a**, as I’ve done before, it is not just me giving him sh**?

  • @mayjay So, if I commented in response that @KUSTEVE would be easier to understand if he took Bill Self’s Di** out of his mouth, that’s an effort to communicate? I would certainly think not. But with that sort of post coming at me, that’s a quick and easy way (though a distasteful way) of making my point.

    Quite frankly, the entire idea of this anger and animosity that always seems to come from some people in response to a simple thread is sad.

  • @HighEliteMajor To me it’s more like…I wanted to believe that it wasn’t happening, but I knew it was. This just validates what I had been fearing. There was too much smoke. My biggest fear is that we (and Self) get it in the neck worse than other programs because of the texts. If our program is the only one with texts that have become public…we could be in serious trouble. And I agree with you about the comment about no proof…while the texts were purposely non-specific…we all know what they mean.

  • @Hawk8086 Given that they already have put out other texts and phone calls, KT/Self aren’t the only ones.

  • @Hawk8086 Unfortunately, I guess I believed that it wasn’t happening at Kansas. That we were led by a man of unquestionable integrity and that he wasn’t doing it like some others might have been. I do believe that there are high character folks. And I thought Bill Self was in that category. And for folks to now say that, oh, that’s how CBB operates, is quite hollow.

  • But it is how CBB operates, I’ve been saying it well before the trial. @jaybate-1-0 has long been saying it, though I don’t know his thoughts on KU’s involvement of course.

  • Let it play out, folks…

  • @HighEliteMajor I got to say I’m extremely disappointed too. I thought we lost all those guys because we didn’t play that game. I can’t believe Self is that stupid too. Just thought he held our program to a higher level!

  • Having some fun.

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  • LMAO!!! 1.) take a chill pill we will be fine. the FBI never clearly presented a paper trail of impermissible benefits everything was text messages and circumstantial evidence.

    2.) Its 2018 not 1918 college sports is a billion dollar Industry football and basketball respectively every program in America is breaking some kind of rule even as we speak.

    3.) Ku will survive this

  • @HighEliteMajor Sadly, I agree. I don’t want to agree. But, I must.
    If Townsend knew of money being handed under the table and even went so far as to say that they needed to make that happen for Zion to come to KU, then there is zero chance Bill Self didn’t know what was going on. Zero chance.

    Oh man, this does not look good. Not at all.

  • I posed a similar question last spring. “Is Bill Self Dirty?” was my post and it drew some mild wrath. I tend to be a trusting person and still have faith as @ReggieKansas and others have that this will turn out all right. But I too have some doubts. There’s some dirty stuff out there being thrown around out there with our programs good name attached to it.

    Now I’d be chagrined if we bear the brunt of this with so much shade being cast on other big name programs. For the life of me I can’t figure out why Arizona was allowed to step foot on the court after their public shaming last season, ironically of course to get a player supposedly coming to KU. Duke and Kentucky’s annual stack of blue chips just magically happens every year. While we haven’t starved for blue chips, we’re definitely a step below those programs. Let’s just hope a lot of teams are brought down with us if indeed we are brought down.

  • @HighEliteMajor I’d recommend sitting down and watching 2 of my favorite basketball movies Blue Chips and He Got Game, both movies shed light into what happens during recruiting. Also I’d watch the HBO documentary on the scandal of the 1950 CCNY basketball team (only team to win the NC and NIT in the same year). I disagree with paying players, I wish I had the chance to go to school for free and get thousands of dollars in clothing, meals and housing for free while I was there. But I’ve thought for years that guys were getting paid, heck UK was busted for it back in the 50s. I hate it but everyone’s doing it and if you don’t you’ve not going to win. ever. As I posted on another thread a D1 assistant claimed “No player is free”. As long as the shoe companies, rich boosters are involved and people pay to watch, kids will get paid. It’s the same way in college football, heck I know that played at the junior college level and got a car. The NCAA won’t dig deeper because they won’t take down the ACC and SEC, those conferences line their pockets and they’ve changed rules and not held any school accountable for decades. The NCAA has one sole purpose whether anyone wants to admit it or not, make money.

  • @HighEliteMajor I think Bill really tried to play it straight, and what those texts reveal is a man a few meters down the slippery slope but grasping for some lesser standard that still represents a line he won’t cross. “Just need a few real guys”.

    Would it sting you worse if he was involved in paying the 2008 team? I’d have a very hard time with that. I can still convince myself that this is a recent development.

  • I’m disappointed the most in the fact that the “bag man” and Self didn’t have layers of separation. Gassnola and Self are not even in the same stratosphere of character but somehow, someway they are connected in this and the optics look bad. That’s my two cents here.

  • In reading the texts, consider two thoughts: What would they read like if KU was innocent and simply relied on Adidas’ influence to have access?


    What would they read like if KU knowingly took advantage of Adidas paying players?

    In the second, wouldn’t there be some reference at least to some unspecified “arrangement” or “thing” or “taking care of it” or something?

    As to KT, if you read it, it refers to what Zion’s family wanted. I do not see a reference to knowing what other schools have offered or paid players. I suspect players’ families make demands all the time (Preston, Bowen, etc) but I don’t think they get everything they are looking for.

    In looking at evidence that raises an “uh oh, this looks bad”, you always have to go through the process of deciding if it is BOTH consistent with guilt AND inconsistent with innocence. Many innocent statements can look suspicious, but that is why you have to look at the context, as several have said. The context about KU’s participation in any scheme does not include, however, statements made by other people in other schools who voice accusations not supported anywhere else.

    This isn’t parsing: this is simply looking beyond the disappointment and fear to examine the actual information putting y’all in such a dither. I don’t see anything actionable against the staff from this material. It might be there eventually, and it could warrant investigation, but I don’t see this stuff as sufficient for sanctions except for a possible suspension of SDS.

    A related question: Do the rule changes by the NCAA allowing them to use evidence from other proceedings allow them to use excluded evidence (offered, but not admitted)?

  • @HighEliteMajor Suck it up, Buttercup. When you run the Missourah ( KU is evil) NPC meme, you’re going to take some hits. Appreciate all of your pre-season analysis concerning the team, btw…Oh wait…you didn’t find anything compelling enough to comment this year until now. It appears you seem more giddy about Self being in trouble than you are with this year’s team. Maybe if you popped in every once in a while, and gave us your take on who you think the team’s cancer will be this year, it wouldn’t appear like you popped in after 6 months to simply bash the coach. Not even one comment about Late Night, and now a novel about your evil nemesis, Coach Self. A new member thought your latest coach bash was a parody, so I simply tried to give him some background, if you will. I’m sorry if my comment has driven you to the brink of insanity, but as you are so fond of saying… " everybody has the right to their own opinion".

  • I still cant believe fans of Lance Armstrong were surprised he was using PEDs. People that were that naive must not have been paying attention to the whole sport where EVERYONE either tested positive or admitted doping. College basketball is the same thing and anyone who thinks their team is clean is just as naive. I live in Dayton Ohio and have known several players and others associated with Wright State over the years. Believe me it happens EVERYWHERE.

  • @BigBad Exactly. This kind of stuff goes on at Washburn for crying out loud.

  • It happens at the High School level as well. It’s happening as we speak. I was told this week of one case involving a shoe company and a 2019 player committed to a school. There was an actual bidding war among schools under the same shoe affiliation for his signature.

    Nothing stopped folks, College Ball is still dirty even as a trial goes on about how dirty it is

  • I think the people that are disappointed are pretty naive. This has been going on since the 60’s with UCLA. It happened in our backyard with Myron Piggie. This is the game of major college athletics.

    So are the people that are just so disappointed going to stop watching and supporting Self and KU?? I mean I would assume you have too right?

  • @Woodrow I think you are missing my point, I love KU, that’s why I’m disappointed. I’d never stop watching or going to games, I watch every KU fb game. I don’t care that “everybody” does it.

  • The Alexander and Preston crap dented my appreciation for KU Hoops. Then when the DeSousa stuff surfaced I pretty much retired from daily reading and commenting on this site. With another promising season about to get underway my spirits are lifted somewhat. But I will never again buy into any semblance of belief regarding the innocence of Bill Self and the program. KU might not be as crooked as the programs of Good Ol’ Roy Boy, his mentor Dean, and Mr. Slicks at Louisville and Kentucky, but it’s a sad fact that corruption rears its ugly head at our place and evidently so many others. Years ago a relative chid me for my inclinations to believe in the amateur spirit and state of college sport. No longer do I suspend my disbelief.

  • @Crimsonorblue22 I am not missing your point. You should be disappointed in the NCAA and college athletics if you do not like what is going on. This is a business and this is how business is conducted due to the current structure of college athletics.

    So you can sit here and say you are disappointed all you want, but you are still going to support the team, love Bill, etc… so how disappointed are you really??

  • @KUSTEVE Wow, I thought I was up to date, but I had to look up “NPC meme”.

    To help others who may be as uninformed as I (surely, there must be one at least), I am providing a definition paraphrased for your usage:

    “People who join the anti-KU crowd only because they’re brainwashed sheep who have been conditioned to parrot anti-KU orthodoxy, just as the computerized characters in a video game provide unthinking comments and actions.”

    You youngsters in your 50’s!

  • What did we actually expect from Self? Put yourself in his shoes. Look at the expectations on the program. He absolutely has to land top prospects or else people will question his recruiting ability. He better be winning the league at least every other year, and getting to a final four every three or four years. You can’t do that without top tier players. Problem is, you can’t get top tier players to come to Lawrence, Kansas for free when they are getting paid to go somewhere else. So, you have to play the game if you want to keep your multi-million dollar job.

    Of course I wish Self and Townsend built in a few more layers of separation. Of course I wish it wasn’t us in the investigation. But to expect that we didn’t have players on the take and that our coaches didn’t know we had players on the take is naive. Coaches know everything that goes on in their program.

    Honestly, if you have a problem with Self because of this, it’s because you live in a fantasy world where you assumed for some reason that College Basketball players aren’t worth more than their scholarship despite that not being the case for over 50 years. And maybe now you are finally waking up to that reality. Bill Self has plenty of integrity. You just are shocked that the recruiting “game” is played (and has been since Self was a player at Oklahoma State) outside of the rules of NCAA defined amateurism.

    I hope that this ends with a “Not Guilty” verdict because that will be the downfall of the NCAA’s stupid amateur rules. The Olympic model will finally have to be implemented, and we can quit pretending that NCAA Men’s Basketball and Football are Amateur sports.

  • @Woodrow my love for Self and KT is diminished. Just the way I am, it’s how I brought up my kids and it’s how my parents brought me up. Think of me however you wish, it doesn’t bother me.

  • Exactly @Kcmatt7 . You have to be extremely ignorant and naive to believe none of this was going on. It has been going on FOREVER!! You think Julian Wright just goes to KU without ever visiting. You think Darrell Arthur really just had a dream and picked KU. I mean get a clue.

  • @Woodrow thx!

  • Crimsonorblue22 said:

    @Woodrow I think you are missing my point, I love KU, that’s why I’m disappointed. I’d never stop watching or going to games, I watch every KU fb game. I don’t care that “everybody” does it.

    Serious question, would you rather KU struggle to even be .500?

    Woodrow said:

    @Crimsonorblue22 I am not missing your point. You should be disappointed in the NCAA and college athletics if you do not like what is going on. This is a business and this is how business is conducted due to the current structure of college athletics.

    So you can sit here and say you are disappointed all you want, but you are still going to support the team, love Bill, etc… so how disappointed are you really??

    Well said. I covered this earlier but the problem is systemic because players obviously have value and the fake system trotted out there isn’t realistic. The market adjusted.

  • Exactly @BShark . The NCAA has setup the system for it to work this way. Players are still getting money and families are being taken care of but a dime does not come out of their pocket. It is just like Wetzel said in the article I posted earlier. Does the NCAA dare look into Zion and Duke? Hell no! Why? Because everyone knows who Zion is and he is going to sell the sport and the tournament this year. He is going to make them millions of more dollars. oh and Coach K is one of the greatest of his time.

    Here is the deal. If you are disappointed in Self then you are saying you would rather be irrelevant in the sport, because that is the only other option.

    This is a BUSINESS!

  • Woodrow said:

    Exactly @Kcmatt7 . You have to be extremely ignorant and naive to believe none of this was going on. It has been going on FOREVER!! You think Julian Wright just goes to KU without ever visiting. You think Darrell Arthur really just had a dream and picked KU. I mean get a clue.

    Sherron, the Morris twins, Cole…

    I would actually struggle to think of a player at KU under Self that wasn’t compensated. Which, again, I am fine with.

  • @BShark @Woodrow

    So, if there really were any NCAA violations here, they would be running afoul of the two most basic NCAA rules there are?

    1. Don’t get caught.

    2. Don’t embarrass the NCAA.

  • @mayjay What exactly did KU get caught doing? That is why I do not understand why people are freaking out. Does it look bad, sure. Does everyone know finally understand what happens in the real world of major college athletics, sure. However, what exactly did KU get “caught” doing?

  • To anyone criticizing those of us who would be disappointed if Self or KU participated in illegal recruiting:

    Basketball is entertainment. I have spoken before how excited I am to watch KU basketball, but also how I have fun watching players develop both on and off the court. Finding out bad things about KU or the players undermines my enjoyment.

    Yes, it involves blinders, and fantasy, but I see no harm in that. Let me analogize: I know the action movies I watch involve CGI and fake blood, and that the good guy characters probably would do some bad things if we saw their lives over 24 hours, and that few movies ever show anyone taking a dump. Fantasy allows ignoring the gritty realities of life.

    Basketball is fantasy. My choice, my disappointment when it implodes!

  • @mayjay

    Well said

  • @Woodrow I said “if”. Since everyone is saying all schools do it, this whole topic should be irrelevant except for if KU were to be caught.

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