New 2019 Recruiting
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@Kcmatt7 The narrative has been that Self has “had” to play Grimes because of his OAD status, thus not to impair his ability to lick the boots … er, recruit such highly ranked guys in the future. Don’t you think to reject Grimes’ return would be suicide, not only with OAD fellows, but with the other guys that aspire to the NBA?
I would offer that, yes, we HAVE to take him back.
But to your position, are you thinking Self could strike a deal with him, one of those quiet, we all love each other deals, where we let him out of his scholarship and permit him to transfer without sitting a year?
Because I can’t even imagine that Grimes’ wants to come back, Self says no, and the backlash that would follow.
Am I missing anything?
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Crimsonorblue22 said:
@Kcmatt7 you think grimes will at least go thru draft night?
Yes I do. I fully believe he will go through still. He has zero to lose in his mind. Either he gets drafted or he still has all options left if he goes undrafted.
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Woodrow said:
Jalen Wilson has scheduled a UNC visit for June 3-5
This doesn’t please me. Don’t let me down Jalen, a 2nd time
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HighEliteMajor said:
@Kcmatt7 The narrative has been that Self has “had” to play Grimes because of his OAD status, thus not to impair his ability to lick the boots … er, recruit such highly ranked guys in the future. Don’t you think to reject Grimes’ return would be suicide, not only with OAD fellows, but with the other guys that aspire to the NBA?
I would offer that, yes, we HAVE to take him back.
But to your position, are you thinking Self could strike a deal with him, one of those quiet, we all love each other deals, where we let him out of his scholarship and permit him to transfer without sitting a year?
Because I can’t even imagine that Grimes’ wants to come back, Self says no, and the backlash that would follow.
Am I missing anything?
It will never be worded as Self not letting him come back from a PR standpoint. But that would be the truth.
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HighEliteMajor said:
@Kcmatt7 The narrative has been that Self has “had” to play Grimes because of his OAD status, thus not to impair his ability to lick the boots … er, recruit such highly ranked guys in the future. Don’t you think to reject Grimes’ return would be suicide, not only with OAD fellows, but with the other guys that aspire to the NBA?
I would offer that, yes, we HAVE to take him back.
But to your position, are you thinking Self could strike a deal with him, one of those quiet, we all love each other deals, where we let him out of his scholarship and permit him to transfer without sitting a year?
Because I can’t even imagine that Grimes’ wants to come back, Self says no, and the backlash that would follow.
Am I missing anything?
Yes. Unless Grimes could get a waiver he has to sit a year. There’s no giving a player a release anymore since the Transfer Portal became a thing. The player just goes to the compliance office and asks to be entered. That’s the end of it. The head coach has no formal role anymore.
And we do not have to take him back. If Hampton wants to commit and will do so sans Grimes, you just be honest that it didn’t work out and everyone moves on like adults. If Grimes wants to go back to college, transferring makes sense. But I still think the plan for him and his crew is to stay in the draft and then see what happens.
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If we have 2 pt guards the writings on the wall anyway. I don’t think he wants to come back. Is it up to coach whether he has to sit a year? I know Self wouldn’t hold him back. Can you just go to the G league?
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Marco said:
@ajvan How can he? He doesn’t even know who to replace or how many scholarships he has… Who to offer and who not. If you don’t think that Hampton cares whether Grimes is or isn’t coming back you are probably mistaken. If you were him would you?
If your a player with the type of talent that RJ has , you really think Quentin Grimes would scare RJ off? - - Come on man get real - -if your an elite talent like he is - you should have the confidence - -that edge you better then anyone else on that floor back it up - -RJ knows you can’t just walk in an get a spot - -you compete for that position if competition is there -and if he wasn’t willing to compete and afraid THE OTHER is better then him? - we don’t want that type of player anyways – RJ is not afraid of competition and sure the hell not afraid of Quentin. - -I think Bill knows Jussssssssss a little more then you or I or anyone else on here - I think his 14 straight championships speak for themselves - his hall of fame induction pretty well speaks for its’self - -I think his National championship speaks for it’self - - I think his final fours speak for themselves -and you question if he know what the hell he is doing? - - Come on man let’s be real
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@Woodrow DeSouza insurance.
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@KUSTEVE speaking of, Shak Juiston officially graduated this weekend.
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@FarmerJayhawk I love that kid.
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@KUSTEVE ditto
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FarmerJayhawk said:
@KUSTEVE speaking of, Shak Juiston officially graduated this weekend.
Has KU kicked the tires on him or his handler yet?
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Woodrow said:
Jalen Wilson has scheduled a UNC visit for June 3-5
Let’s hope he never makes it.
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@BeddieKU23 haven’t heard much about him since his knee surgery
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BeddieKU23 said:
FarmerJayhawk said:
@KUSTEVE speaking of, Shak Juiston officially graduated this weekend.
Has KU kicked the tires on him or his handler yet?
Not that I know of. Haven’t heard him mentioned with any school yet.
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jayballer73 said:
Marco said:
@ajvan How can he? He doesn’t even know who to replace or how many scholarships he has… Who to offer and who not. If you don’t think that Hampton cares whether Grimes is or isn’t coming back you are probably mistaken. If you were him would you?
If your a player with the type of talent that RJ has , you really think Quentin Grimes would scare RJ off? - - Come on man get real - -if your an elite talent like he is - you should have the confidence - -that edge you better then anyone else on that floor back it up - -RJ knows you can’t just walk in an get a spot - -you compete for that position if competition is there -and if he wasn’t willing to compete and afraid THE OTHER is better then him? - we don’t want that type of player anyways – RJ is not afraid of competition and sure the hell not afraid of Quentin. - -I think Bill knows Jussssssssss a little more then you or I or anyone else on here - I think his 14 straight championships speak for themselves - his hall of fame induction pretty well speaks for its’self - -I think his National championship speaks for it’self - - I think his final fours speak for themselves -and you question if he know what the hell he is doing? - - Come on man let’s be real
They are players not machines, of course he cares.
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jayballer73 said:
Marco said:
@ajvan How can he? He doesn’t even know who to replace or how many scholarships he has… Who to offer and who not. If you don’t think that Hampton cares whether Grimes is or isn’t coming back you are probably mistaken. If you were him would you?
If your a player with the type of talent that RJ has , you really think Quentin Grimes would scare RJ off? - - Come on man get real - -if your an elite talent like he is - you should have the confidence - -that edge you better then anyone else on that floor back it up - -RJ knows you can’t just walk in an get a spot - -you compete for that position if competition is there -and if he wasn’t willing to compete and afraid THE OTHER is better then him? - we don’t want that type of player anyways – RJ is not afraid of competition and sure the hell not afraid of Quentin. - -I think Bill knows Jussssssssss a little more then you or I or anyone else on here - I think his 14 straight championships speak for themselves - his hall of fame induction pretty well speaks for its’self - -I think his National championship speaks for it’self - - I think his final fours speak for themselves -and you question if he know what the hell he is doing? - - Come on man let’s be real
I didn’t question if Self knows what he’s doing. I’m questioning whether he should let Grimes come back, and he should not.
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Dain Ervin picked KU for J Wilson on 247. We’re now at 39%! Keep em coming
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@Marco If we didn’t let Q come back, then every coach in America would tell a recruit…" If you go to KU, and you test the waters with the NBA, Coach Self won’t take you back, even if you want to return". We would never get a Top 100 recruit again. That’s a really questionable idea, imo. Maybe Q isn’t as bad as you think. Perhaps he gets better…alot better by coming back.
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@KUSTEVE I sure hope so.
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Okay guys, thoughts on this year’s recruiting class? We already have Enaruna, Braun and McBride, who else do you think we will add?
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KUSTEVE said:
@Marco If we didn’t let Q come back, then every coach in America would tell a recruit…" If you go to KU, and you test the waters with the NBA, Coach Self won’t take you back, even if you want to return". We would never get a Top 100 recruit again. That’s a really questionable idea, imo. Maybe Q isn’t as bad as you think. Perhaps he gets better…alot better by coming back.
This is simply not true. Bill kicks players out almost every season. And If Q was just testing the waters that’d be different. But what people have heard is that’s he’s gone, and told Self as much. I’m sure he’s free to return to KU, and ride the bench. I’m sure Self would be okay with that. But is Q?
Now did Self kick him out or did Q just not want to ride the bench if Q ends up transferring?
Because this is how it would get worded.
Dotson is an example of testing the waters. And I’m sure Self encourages it. And I’m sure he’s okay with a guy unexpectedly leaving because they got a first round grade. But the intent in declaring is what changes the entire scenario.
Cal literally runs guys out every season. Several guys said they wanted to return but Cal said the same. You can come back and ride the bench, stay pro, or transfer.
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Marco said:
jayballer73 said:
Marco said:
@ajvan How can he? He doesn’t even know who to replace or how many scholarships he has… Who to offer and who not. If you don’t think that Hampton cares whether Grimes is or isn’t coming back you are probably mistaken. If you were him would you?
If your a player with the type of talent that RJ has , you really think Quentin Grimes would scare RJ off? - - Come on man get real - -if your an elite talent like he is - you should have the confidence - -that edge you better then anyone else on that floor back it up - -RJ knows you can’t just walk in an get a spot - -you compete for that position if competition is there -and if he wasn’t willing to compete and afraid THE OTHER is better then him? - we don’t want that type of player anyways – RJ is not afraid of competition and sure the hell not afraid of Quentin. - -I think Bill knows Jussssssssss a little more then you or I or anyone else on here - I think his 14 straight championships speak for themselves - his hall of fame induction pretty well speaks for its’self - -I think his National championship speaks for it’self - - I think his final fours speak for themselves -and you question if he know what the hell he is doing? - - Come on man let’s be real
They are players not machines, of course he cares.
your DEAD WRONG PERIOD - - just dead wrong no if and or but’s - -RJ could give a rats ass if Grimes is there or not. - -WHY ? - - because he is a competitor -and a dam good one at that - -why the hell would he give a tinkers dam , if your as good as they say you are and you think you are - you could care less who is there BECAUSE you are that competitor -I would be saying Bring it Quentin - -let’s see what you got - -you WIN that spot - -it’s not given to you - -nothing is just given to you - -and RJ would welcome the challenge if it comes to that - -you are DEAD WRONG
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@Kcmatt7 I’m sure he indirectly manipulates the roster, but he never comes out and says you aren’t welcome here. Not to 5 star recruits.
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Jaden McDaniels to Washington was a nice kick in the crotch to UK. Hope EJ leaves too. That’d be real nice.
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KUSTEVE said:
@Kcmatt7 I’m sure he indirectly manipulates the roster, but he never comes out and says you aren’t welcome here. Not to 5 star recruits.
And that’s the distinction. Behind the scenes maneuvering where it’s a lovefest upon departure vs. an ugly show. But to deny a top 10 player the opportunity to return would be a much different deal either way (unfortunately)
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Speaking of Cal, Jaden McDaniels spurned him to stay home at UWash.
Edit: More posts while I was up making tea I see.
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jayballer73 said:
Marco said:
jayballer73 said:
Marco said:
@ajvan How can he? He doesn’t even know who to replace or how many scholarships he has… Who to offer and who not. If you don’t think that Hampton cares whether Grimes is or isn’t coming back you are probably mistaken. If you were him would you?
If your a player with the type of talent that RJ has , you really think Quentin Grimes would scare RJ off? - - Come on man get real - -if your an elite talent like he is - you should have the confidence - -that edge you better then anyone else on that floor back it up - -RJ knows you can’t just walk in an get a spot - -you compete for that position if competition is there -and if he wasn’t willing to compete and afraid THE OTHER is better then him? - we don’t want that type of player anyways – RJ is not afraid of competition and sure the hell not afraid of Quentin. - -I think Bill knows Jussssssssss a little more then you or I or anyone else on here - I think his 14 straight championships speak for themselves - his hall of fame induction pretty well speaks for its’self - -I think his National championship speaks for it’self - - I think his final fours speak for themselves -and you question if he know what the hell he is doing? - - Come on man let’s be real
They are players not machines, of course he cares.
your DEAD WRONG PERIOD - - just dead wrong no if and or but’s - -RJ could give a rats ass if Grimes is there or not. - -WHY ? - - because he is a competitor -and a dam good one at that - -why the hell would he give a tinkers dam , if your as good as they say you are and you think you are - you could care less who is there BECAUSE you are that competitor -I would be saying Bring it Quentin - -let’s see what you got - -you WIN that spot - -it’s not given to you - -nothing is just given to you - -and RJ would welcome the challenge if it comes to that - -you are DEAD WRONG
You might be dead wrong. Maybe. Or you might be right. We don’t know RJ. But clearly, players make decisions when there is potential competition that could impede immediate playing time. That’s undeniable. RJ would have seen the great deference given Grimes, he might also see that Agbaji is pretty stout, he might also see that Garrett might have coach Self “pet” status – when dealing with the latter two, that might not be enough to dissuade him. But add in Grimes, a top 10 guy, it’s certainly plausible.
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Just a paper top 10 guy. No one is scared of the Grimes we all saw.
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dylans said:
Just a paper top 10 guy. No one is scared of the Grimes we all saw.
you know that - - I know that - - RJ knows that lol
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jayballer73 said:
Marco said: -I think Bill knows Jussssssssss a little more then you or I or anyone else on here - I think his 14 straight championships speak for themselves - his hall of fame induction pretty well speaks for its’self - -I think his National championship speaks for it’self - - I think his final fours speak for themselves -and you question if he know what the hell he is doing? - - Come on man let’s be real
I would offer that this is not an argument. It is more a statement as to why we should always start any discussion giving his decisions the benefit of the doubt. But when you can tell me that Bill Self has not made a mistake, then we’d have something. But until that time, it seems fair game to critique and determine when he’s made poor decisions.
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jayballer73 said:
dylans said:
Just a paper top 10 guy. No one is scared of the Grimes we all saw.
you know that - - I know that - - RJ knows that lol
Well it’s not “lol.” The reality is that Bill Self started him every game. That should make a recruit take notice.
It’s funny, in nearly the same breath, you state that we should take Bill Self’s word as the gospel, then you mock Grimes’ on court abilty – and Bill Self started him every game.
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@HighEliteMajor Would Bill have started him every game if he didn’t promise him a starting spot during recruiting? Food for thought.
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KUSTEVE said:
@Kcmatt7 I’m sure he indirectly manipulates the roster, but he never comes out and says you aren’t welcome here. Not to 5 star recruits.
Well he directly manipulates the roster. And if Self doesn’t want him back he won’t be back. You can call it whatever you want. Recruited over. Manipulated the roster. Kicked out. Not welcome. Etc.
Results are the same.
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@BShark or had an option… start whom last year over Grimes? Garrett? Moore? KJ? Just the least bad option and better for future recruiting. How many times did we here about Kelly O. sitting on the bench early and just needing playing time to develop? Some prospects just don’t pan out the way you’d hoped. Grimes as a Jr would be nice, as a OAD not so nice.
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I think one of the problems is the high school ranking system. There’s probably 75 kids that can make it to the top 50, or at least have a solid argument on why they should. The ranking system is somewhat flawed and builds too much ego in these players, along side their parents, and get unrealistic expectations for how long they should stay in college by their ranking coming out of high school.
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Marco said:
Okay guys, thoughts on this year’s recruiting class? We already have Enaruna, Braun and McBride, who else do you think we will add?
Since recruiting is now more then just HS kids. We get Dotson back, Silvio is eligible, Hampton commits and he assists in getting Wilson to join as well. That’s the dream boat scenario. I give that one a 10% chance.
Dotson could stay in the draft, the appeals committee could continue to stone wall De Sousa, Hampton could go play in Antarctica for all I care and Wilson will go to UNC or back to Michigan for all we know. I give this one a 20% chance.
Dotson returns, Silvio is ineligible, Hampton & Wilson join the team in June. I give this one a 50% chance.
Dotson returns, Silvio is ineligible, Hampton joins but Wilson goes elsewhere. I give this one a 20% chance.
I’ll go with option #3. Dotson, Hampton & Wilson join/return.
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Kcmatt7 said:
Jaden McDaniels to Washington was a nice kick in the crotch to UK. Hope EJ leaves too. That’d be real nice.
Odd recruitment. Washington has two potential lottery picks in the front court. Stewart could be the best freshman next year
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rockchalkwyo said:
I think one of the problems is the high school ranking system. There’s probably 75 kids that can make it to the top 50, or at least have a solid argument on why they should. The ranking system is somewhat flawed and builds too much ego in these players, along side their parents, and get unrealistic expectations for how long they should stay in college by their ranking coming out of high school.
Definitely plays a part. If Grimes was the #100 ranked player coming to KU, starts all season with that stat line he’s probably judged differently. When your a Top 10 player and come here and have that kind of season your going to take criticism.
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BeddieKU23 said:
rockchalkwyo said:
I think one of the problems is the high school ranking system. There’s probably 75 kids that can make it to the top 50, or at least have a solid argument on why they should. The ranking system is somewhat flawed and builds too much ego in these players, along side their parents, and get unrealistic expectations for how long they should stay in college by their ranking coming out of high school.
Definitely plays a part. If Grimes was the #100 ranked player coming to KU, starts all season with that stat line he’s probably judged differently. When your a Top 10 player and come here and have that kind of season your going to take criticism.
But with that performance last season, to @BShark’s point, it’s a pretty sure bet he would not have started all last season – there was something else going on.
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HighEliteMajor said:
BeddieKU23 said:
rockchalkwyo said:
I think one of the problems is the high school ranking system. There’s probably 75 kids that can make it to the top 50, or at least have a solid argument on why they should. The ranking system is somewhat flawed and builds too much ego in these players, along side their parents, and get unrealistic expectations for how long they should stay in college by their ranking coming out of high school.
Definitely plays a part. If Grimes was the #100 ranked player coming to KU, starts all season with that stat line he’s probably judged differently. When your a Top 10 player and come here and have that kind of season your going to take criticism.
But with that performance last season, to @BShark’s point, it’s a pretty sure bet he would not have started all last season – there was something else going on.
I heard he promised Dotson and Q that they would start. Not an authoritative source by any means but it would explain a lot. Self handled Grimes a lot differently than he has high profile guards that played badly in the past. At some point you think he might have been benched to send a message otherwise. Self didn’t have a lot of options true but Grimes was the worst starter in the league.
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dylans said:
@BShark or had an option… start whom last year over Grimes? Garrett? Moore? KJ? Just the least bad option and better for future recruiting. How many times did we here about Kelly O. sitting on the bench early and just needing playing time to develop? Some prospects just don’t pan out the way you’d hoped. Grimes as a Jr would be nice, as a OAD not so nice.
Yes, yes, and yes on whom to start over Grimes – my view was Grimes just needed a different perspective. Coming off the bench can provide that perspective, and some players really flourish in that role. Further, I think it does help to really humble a kid. Sit him, don’t play him. Reduce minutes. A bit of a tear down to build back up. It reached a point with the Grimes where that strategy was begging, and could have … not for sure, but could have helped him.
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@HighEliteMajor I think Self basically knowing he only had Grimes one year could have changed his approach as well. If there is a chance Self has him for 2-3 years than the tear down to build up becomes a more appealing option. Instead he was forced to just hope that engaged Grimes would show up over checked out Grimes (he rarely did).
All of this to me is why it makes so much sense for both parties to be done. Grimes wasn’t quick enough to play the 2, let alone PG… I guess you could try to hide him on D while letting him run the show on offense but Dotson seemed like the far superior option to me so I can’t blame Self there.
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I agree with that. He likely wouldn’t have played that much.
Grimes could have been one of Self’s favorites. We all know what happens when Self favors someone.
Was Self sending a message to recruits that he’ll play highly ranked freshman from the get-go?
One thing I’ll add that wasn’t mentioned is if it wasn’t Grimes then who? I think the staff identified that playing Dotson with Grimes gave them the best offense potentially. Playing him with Garrett was redundant because neither is a feared shooter.
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@BShark @BeddieKU23 And I favor playing the more talented player from the start. That’s always been my belief. I just felt when we got to a certain point in the season, a different look for Grimes would have been worth trying, all with the goal of moving him back to the starting lineup. @BeddieKU23 See my comment a few posts on the “if not Grimes then who” thing … my thought was more a disruption in the routine. Bench him for a bit, reduce minutes, 6th man, whatever … see if that could jump start him.
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@Kcmatt7 I agree with you 100%. The results are the same. I was responding to a request by someone suggesting that Bill tell the guy he’s not welcome here. A 5 star guy- a guy that started every game last year. It’s a question of how Bill finesses it, so I’m on the same page with you. You can say the same thing w/o saying the same thing.
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HighEliteMajor said:
@BShark @BeddieKU23 And I favor playing the more talented player from the start. That’s always been my belief. I just felt when we got to a certain point in the season, a different look for Grimes would have been worth trying, all with the goal of moving him back to the starting lineup. @BeddieKU23 See my comment a few posts on the “if not Grimes then who” thing … my thought was more a disruption in the routine. Bench him for a bit, reduce minutes, 6th man, whatever … see if that could jump start him.
I wonder if it was considered. It’s worked in the past Self sending a message and trying to get motivation through PT or reduced role. Newman was a recent example. So that’s a good point why it wasn’t really explored. Maybe he thought it would potentially do more harm then good? Not having a fully checked in Vick probably made it difficult to justify as well. The last straw for Vick as I remember was being benched in the first half of a game. I wonder if Self thought that type of behavior would have spilled over to Grimes and he wanted to keep giving Grimes the perception of confidence by not benching him at points in the season where he wasn’t performing.
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I think in the end, Self looks pretty good even if Grimes leaves undrafted. Kid got plenty of opportunities. Any recruit that gets dissuaded coming to KU because of Grimes getting misused would probably be a bad fit anyway. Is there someone Grimes is associated with that Self is targeting?
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BeddieKU23 said:
HighEliteMajor said:
@BShark @BeddieKU23 And I favor playing the more talented player from the start. That’s always been my belief. I just felt when we got to a certain point in the season, a different look for Grimes would have been worth trying, all with the goal of moving him back to the starting lineup. @BeddieKU23 See my comment a few posts on the “if not Grimes then who” thing … my thought was more a disruption in the routine. Bench him for a bit, reduce minutes, 6th man, whatever … see if that could jump start him.
I wonder if it was considered. It’s worked in the past Self sending a message and trying to get motivation through PT or reduced role. Newman was a recent example. So that’s a good point why it wasn’t really explored. Maybe he thought it would potentially do more harm then good? Not having a fully checked in Vick probably made it difficult to justify as well. The last straw for Vick as I remember was being benched in the first half of a game. I wonder if Self thought that type of behavior would have spilled over to Grimes and he wanted to keep giving Grimes the perception of confidence by not benching him at points in the season where he wasn’t performing.
I bet it was considered, and your theory on this is just as probable – that Self self did consider it and maybe, related to this kid, didn’t see it as the best approach.
@approxinfinity Can’t think of a connection, other than the great state of Texas (Grimes and Barrett/Wilson).
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@approxinfinity Couldn’t Grimes play the 3 if Dotson comes back, and the 2 if he doesn’t?
