Best Passer... EVER
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I am pretty high on Moore. He will be the starting PG but Dotson will likely take over somewhere in the season but no doubt Moore will see substantial playing time. Nice to have a PG that can step in at any time with little or no drop in team performance.
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@BShark We said the same thing about Frank after his freshman year. If Charlie starts to play ME-BALL, he’ll get pulled real quick.
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wissox said:
BeddieKU23 said:
Did you see him play at Cal at all?
I think I watched a little once. However, I did see him in person once as well. It was at a holiday tournament in Chicago and while I had no knowledge of anyone on the floor at the time, immediately as the game began his skill became very clear. He stood out and was playing in a game on a team that would win state in Illinois that year.
Must have been cool to reflect now on him now that he’s a Hawk.
I watched a handful of Cal games his freshman year. A few of them Charlie was very good, on a bad team. His role at KU will be completely different then what he had at Cal so it will be interesting to see how he’s adjusted to life under Bill Self. I expect we’ll see some good flashes from him.
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Did you see Self’s comments yesterday about Charlie?
“The thing about Charlie that people might not understand is people equate him to being a point guard just because he’s not very tall,” KU coach Bill Self recently told the Journal-World. “But the bottom line is this dude can score. He’ll play some point for us, but he’ll probably play every bit as much off the ball. He can play point guard, but I still think he’d be better if he had a point guard in the game with him.”
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Frank Mason was a SG in HS and a volume scorer but his role changed at KU and worked out great for him.
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BeddieKU23 said:
He can play point guard, but I still think he’d be better if he had a point guard in the game with him.”
That is why I don’t think he will get much time. Are we better with Charlie on the court wtih Dotson. Or Dotson with Garrett/Vick/KJ/Grimes combo? That group is just so long and talented that I can’t see Moore playing much.
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BeddieKU23 said:
In General, I’ve seen the KU fanbase on both ends of the spectrum regarding Charlie.
You have those that think he’ll start the season because of his experience both at Cal and his 1 year with the KU program. He has seniority over Devon, something that we’ve seen play out in his favor in the past.
I’ve seen those who think he won’t amount to much here based on anything from his size, his HS ranking, his shooting metrics at Cal etc.
In his favor at the minimum, Self took him into the program without hesitation. Everything we’ve heard about his character and work ethic has been A++. The Lawson’s might be here only a year but Charlie most likely ends his career a Hawk 3 years from now. Will be exciting to watch his development here
I’m actually worried Moore ends up transferring again. Might be completely unfounded though. Can’t wait for the season to get here and see how Self goes with minutes.
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@BeddieKU23 That same tournament is when I saw future and now former Hawk Markese Jacobs play and met Jerrance Howard. It’s a great tournament which has so many future college and pro stars play.
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JayHawkFanToo said:
Frank Mason was a SG in HS and a volume scorer but his role changed at KU and worked out great for him.
If Charlie is on a similar career arc to Mason then I find it unlikely that he’s KU’s starting PG this year. Self’s comments all but said he’s not focused on him as the primary PG on this team.
Let’s not forget Frank took years to transition his role into the scoring/facilitating machine he was as a Sr.
Whoever wins the gig is a win/win for KU and its fans. We have depth at the position and the competition for the spot should benefit everyone
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Kcmatt7 said:
BeddieKU23 said:
He can play point guard, but I still think he’d be better if he had a point guard in the game with him.”
That is why I don’t think he will get much time. Are we better with Charlie on the court wtih Dotson. Or Dotson with Garrett/Vick/KJ/Grimes combo? That group is just so long and talented that I can’t see Moore playing much.
I agree although I do think Charlie plays somewhere in the 12-18 minute range. His scoring ability should get him on the court, I view his role similar to Vick’s two seasons ago when Self used him off the bench.
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I don’t see any Frank in Moore. Frank was a lot more athletic.
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BShark said:
BeddieKU23 said:
In General, I’ve seen the KU fanbase on both ends of the spectrum regarding Charlie.
You have those that think he’ll start the season because of his experience both at Cal and his 1 year with the KU program. He has seniority over Devon, something that we’ve seen play out in his favor in the past.
I’ve seen those who think he won’t amount to much here based on anything from his size, his HS ranking, his shooting metrics at Cal etc.
In his favor at the minimum, Self took him into the program without hesitation. Everything we’ve heard about his character and work ethic has been A++. The Lawson’s might be here only a year but Charlie most likely ends his career a Hawk 3 years from now. Will be exciting to watch his development here
I’m actually worried Moore ends up transferring again. Might be completely unfounded though. Can’t wait for the season to get here and see how Self goes with minutes.
I have that worry as well with how the rules are for grad-transfers. I hope he sticks it out as I think he’ll make a big impact on this team as a Jr & Sr. Have stated that many times
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BShark said:
I don’t see any Frank in Moore. Frank was a lot more athletic.
I get the scoring guard comparison but it stops there. Frank has developed into a legitimate PG now, his play for the Kings already in the pre-season shows that
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BeddieKU23 said:
BShark said:
I don’t see any Frank in Moore. Frank was a lot more athletic.
I get the scoring guard comparison but it stops there. Frank has developed into a legitimate PG now, his play for the Kings already in the pre-season shows that
I think Moore could grow into a good player for sure but their games are a lot different.
I do hope he toughs it out too though. I think he’s much closer to Andrew White than Cunliffe, Whitman, Maxwell.*
*This is just from a good at basketball stand point and not player type of course.
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Charlie was thrust into a tough situation at Cal, where 4 starters were hurt from the git-go, and he was relied on for the bulk of the scoring on a P-5 team as a freshman for a good portion of the season. I think with a much better supporting cast, with less pg responsibilities, he will be a great offensive weapon off the bench. The shothog moniker is a bit unfair in lieu of the circumstances at Cal. After watching Dotson, i just don’t see how they could start Charlie over him, even in the beginning. And that’s not a knock on Charlie- I just think Dotson is way more advanced than I had originally speculated.
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BShark said:
BeddieKU23 said:
BShark said:
I don’t see any Frank in Moore. Frank was a lot more athletic.
I get the scoring guard comparison but it stops there. Frank has developed into a legitimate PG now, his play for the Kings already in the pre-season shows that
I think Moore could grow into a good player for sure but their games are a lot different.
I do hope he toughs it out too though. I think he’s much closer to Andrew White than Cunliffe, Whitman, Maxwell.*
*This is just from a good at basketball stand point and not player type of course.
Agree, Charlie is a good basketball player. It was evident at Cal he was good enough to play almost anywhere despite his size. He has skill and I think his ability to score, make perimeter shots has a role on this team this season. At Cal he was fearless getting into the lane and either taking the shot or setting up teammates despite his size (a Frank comp in a way). We’ve seen some footage of him at KU setting up the bigs already which is the start of the transition I wanted to see out of him.
I highly suggest anyone who’s high on Charlie to find some actual game footage of him at Cal. He’s not a traditional PG, Self has pointed this out for anyone who will listen. It’s a role I do think he can develop into as we’ve seen Frank & Devonte do recently. Be patient.
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Several KU players interviewed over the Summer indicated Moore is the best 3 point shooter in the team, the area where KU is not loaded like previous years. He might be the right player for situations when a 3 point shooter is needed.
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Good stuff. Agree
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It also looks like KJ has improved his perimeter shooting as well. His shot looked smooth and natural in the Late Night scrimmage. He could be another pleasant surprise there.
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BShark said:
I don’t see any Frank in Moore. Frank was a lot more athletic.
Mason was really fast, stronger, had a better handle (which has gotten ever better if you’ve watched him lately), and was a better passer (which has also improved lately: 26-3 assist to turnover ratio in the preseason). He was also one of the best finishers at the rim I’ve ever seen at Kansas, and I see none of that in Moore. Not trying to kill Charlie here, but Frank was a NPOY and if life was fair, would start for the Kings this season. It’s not really a fair comparison for Moore.
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@JayHawkFanToo I am remaining hopeful that we can get enough from Charlie, Vick and KJ.
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HawkChamp said:
@JayHawkFanToo I am remaining hopeful that we can get enough from Charlie, Vick and KJ.
Grimes & Dedric as well. Those 5 should make up the bulk of the volume and makes for this team. Devon & Marcus will have their share of attempts as well but its a wait and see how much they have improved in that area
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Me too. We are going from teams with good 3 point shooters to a question mark and the only apparent weakness for the team. Success from the 3 makes the team unstoppable.
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JayHawkFanToo said:
Several KU players interviewed over the Summer indicated Moore is the best 3 point shooter in the team, the area where KU is not loaded like previous years. He might be the right player for situations when a 3 point shooter is needed.
I was thinking this as well. Then I thought about defense. I just don’t see big minutes in Charlie’s future unless he’s better at D than advertised.
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Oh yah, Im super psyched about this! We may not have Frank and DG anymore but with Dedric, we have a guy that is, according to Self, the best passer KU has had since Miles. That’s sick! Devon, Charlie seem to be very capable of filling shoes there too. Can’t wait for the games!
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@KUSTEVE Deeeeeeeep! I wonder if Self will extend his bench to 9-10 guys late into the season. Kinda seems like he’ll have to with all those guys.
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History indicates about 8 guys will separate themselves and Self will favor playing those guys especially in big/tight games.
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BShark said:
History indicates about 8 guys will separate themselves and Self will favor playing those guys especially in big/tight games.
That would be disappointing given the depth.
If the Starting Lineup is say - Dotson, Grimes, Vick, Dedric, Doke.
Who’s the next 3? An eligible Silvio (6), KJ, (7), Marcus (8).
I know sustaining 12 guys playing every game is not happening. But I think Self is going to have to find a way to play at least 9, 10.
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@BeddieKU23 I’d love to see Self become more aggressive defensively and play a full 11 man rotation, but he is so damn stubborn. I expect to see 11 guys until B12 play. At that point, hopefully we are playing so well that he can’t sit anyone.
I just don’t know where you sit guys. Usually it is easy to see the 8. Or hell, really the top 7. But not this year. We have a top 25 team sitting on the bench.
Truth be told, I expect to see Big Dave get almost no run come conference play. Unless Mitch becomes a great trail 3 point shooter and lob passer, he won’t play. So that puts us at 9 pretty quickly. I think KJ might end up eating any minutes at the 4 not picked up by Doke, Dedric and DeSousa.
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Depth ALWAYS works itself out. There will be 2 or 3 guys that either: 1. are careless with the ball and make stupid turnovers 2. get blown by on defense or miss box outs 3. take bad shots. This will mean a short leash and a seat next to coach Self. I dont care how “deep” we seem to be, there always seem to be short leash guys with Coach Self.
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Silvio ends up sitting because of eligibility. Agbaji and Mitch don’t play. Very clean 9 imo.
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BShark said:
Silvio ends up sitting because of eligibility. Agbaji and Mitch don’t play. Very clean 9 imo.
Could happen. Mitch would play if Silvio is out though. I can’t imagine Self only roles with 3 bigs but that’s where KJ’s versatility comes into play.
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Mitch is going to play. He is just one of those guys that does everything right and Self can trust. I have been pretty hard on Mitch, but he is gonna play.
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He bulked up to 225 which helps him. But if Silvio actually can play there’s probably only end of half minutes for him.
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@BigBad The short leash will be acute this year. He has the depth to not have to put up with poor play at all this year.
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Woodrow said:
Mitch is going to play. He is just one of those guys that does everything right and Self can trust. I have been pretty hard on Mitch, but he is gonna play.
But, he barely played towards the end of last year except for the B12 tournament when Doke was out. And KU adds multiple quality post players. I’ll believe it when I see it. If Silvio is out, that helps Mitch greatly of course.
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Charlie is a good player. Going to be a canned offense kind of guy if we’re on a brutal offensive stretch.
The rotation is going to be Dotson, Garrett, Grimes, K.J., Vick, Dedric, Doke, Silvio, and probably Mitch. Could see Dave against select opponents though.
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I just want to remind you all that if Coach Self thinks all 12 guys can play this season and contribute then that’s what will happen. Bill has a blue print for how to play 12 guys and how that works right now. He did it this summer with USA Bball. Don’t count on it to happen but don’t be surprised if it does. This KU team is loaded! And, Self has already said very good things about Ochai and David and Charlie.
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The thing about those team USA games is the USA team was a massive favorite in each game. Self is going to have ride or die guys, he always does.
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In big games, the rotation will trim because in those games D. Lawson is playing 30 minutes, Grimes is playing 30 minutes, K. Lawson and Vick probably get 25 each. That’s 110 minutes right there. There just won’t be a lot of other minutes to go around because the “Big 4” will eat up so many minutes between them. That will cost someone in the Garrett/Dotson/Moore/McCormack group their minutes in big games (figuring that if Silvio is eligible he will play, and Doke will get minutes no matter what). There’s just no way around cutting someone’s minutes in that group, probably two of those guys.
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True. Some of the playing time will also depend on who the opponent is and what the match ups are. A team with no size inside will see a lot of Doke, Silvio and even Big Dave, but a team with size might see more of Mitch who is capable of stepping outside and hitting the 3. Same thing with the back court. a team with lack of back court size will see more of Moore, particularly if a 3 point shooter is needed but a team with tall guards will see more of Garret.
Nice to have all these option that just were not available the past few seasons.
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JayHawkFanToo said:
True. Some of the playing time will also depend on who the opponent is and what the match ups are. A team with no size inside will see a lot of Doke, Silvio and even Big Dave, but a team with size might see more of Mitch who is capable of stepping outside and hitting the 3. Same thing with the back court. a team with lack of back court size will see more of Moore, particularly if a 3 point shooter is needed but a team with tall guards will see more of Garret.
Nice to have all these option that just were not available the past few seasons.
Yeah, it’s fun to even be able to have these rotation and minutes discussions. I still don’t think Mitch sees the floor if Silvio is eligible but we will find out soon enough.
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I have yet to see Mitch prove he can hit a 3 in a real game against D1 opponents.
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Kcmatt7 said:
I have yet to see Mitch prove he can hit a 3 in a real game against D1 opponents.
He hit one against TCU and A&M last yea… POINT TAKEN.
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Kcmatt7 said:
I have yet to see Mitch prove he can hit a 3 in a real game against D1 opponents.
Nice progress. I believe he hit 60%+ in one of the Summer games.
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Mitch was a disaster his FR year offensively, admittedly with very few opportunities. He didn’t generally kill the team last year, but he also wasn’t great. Self has a ton of options and I just can’t see Mitch getting much tick.
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@JayHawkFanToo I would love to see Mitch prove me wrong. But the more I think about it, unless he able to take 2-3 a game and is connecting on them near 40%, he should probably not be playing. It would make a lot of sense to me if he did redshirt this season. He might as well get a free masters degree.
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His overall number are very good particularly blocks.
Only 6 less blocks than Doke playing considerably less minutes and his FT% is pretty good as well.
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@JayHawkFanToo Look at his rebound numbers though. And he was the only big in the game usually… With the way this offense is already going to struggle, I just think his rebounding is quite the liability. Again, unless he can shoot the ball well enough to help space the floor for everyone else.
