Best Passer... EVER
-
Against Michigan St I expect Self will start his freshman. It’s on National TV, its a recruiting thing. Everyone is watching.
Unlike past years we don’t have a warm-up game before Sparty. Winston is a tough,tough matchup for a freshman off the bat but its exactly the situation you want to see how Devon responds.
If Moore is in the game it sounds like another ball handler will be in as well. Expect either Devon or Q to be playing primarily with Charlie at all times
-
I think Dotson needs to play zone because he will attack the middle of it instead of trying to shoot over it. Someone in your zone busting lineup has to get the defense collapsing.
-
I keep seeing the header and thinking it’s an overreaction to Mahomes. Then I realize @KUSteve posted it and is a Texans fan…and it’s about KU basketball.
-
@BShark If Silvio isn’t able to play, it wouldn’t surprise me to see the Lawsons playing the front line almost every game for portions of the game… I thot it was telling they used KJ as a big in late night, and he played exceptionally well. He has really bulked up, and looks almost as big as MM.
-
The Lawson bros definitely have that Morrii synergy thing going on. Any line-up with them as the two post players is a hell of a “small” line-up w/ a lot of length and rebounding.
-
BShark said:
The Lawson bros definitely have that Morrii synergy thing going on. Any line-up with them as the two post players is a hell of a “small” line-up w/ a lot of length and rebounding.
Also, tons of athleticism with that as a small lineup. Potentially unguardable.
-
At this point, Bill could put all 12 scholarship players names in a hat, draw out 5 names, and it would be a capable lineup lol.
-
@justanotherfan Agree. I hope we see it a fair bit.
@Kcmatt7 REAL TALK: would bill win the B12 with Moore, Garrett, Agbaji, Mitch, Dave? And some kind of bench presumably.
-
@BShark haha I wouldn’t bet against it happening, that’s for sure. Ridiculously loaded right now.
-
BShark said:
@justanotherfan Agree. I hope we see it a fair bit.
@Kcmatt7 REAL TALK: would bill win the B12 with Moore, Garrett, Agbaji, Mitch, Dave? And some kind of bench presumably.
I don’t know that he could win it with that group, but I bet he could finish top 3. You would have to hope Big Dave could average 12 and 8 because I don’t know where the scoring would come from on that team. Moore would be in double figures, but efficiency would probably suffer. Garrett would have to score more. I guess Agbaji could be a scorer, but that seems a year too soon.
They would have to be tough defensively because they would struggle on the offensive end.
But I still think they would finish third in the League because Self would figure it out.
-
The only thing that sucks is I know Bill will never have someone besides Dotson or Moore at PG. Which really ruins several of my fantasy lineups where we don’t have a player on the floor under 6’4 lol
-
@Kcmatt7 grimes played pt a lot for him
-
I once saw Danny M throw a full length bounce pass that basically was thrown diagonally from the right side of the lane, where I was sitting, to a fast breaker who caught the ball on the left side of the opposite lane. From my unique vantage point I could see the precision needed for such a pass to work as it split two defenders. Glad my brain has hung onto the video of that play. If Mr. Lawson can throw passes like that I’ll call him the best passer ever too!
-
Funny to me to hear people here, (not on this discussion today) but in general to be not very high on Charlie Moore. This kid is really very good and I think will be a key performer, probably off the bench.
-
KUSTEVE said:
@BShark If Silvio isn’t able to play, it wouldn’t surprise me to see the Lawsons playing the front line almost every game for portions of the game… I thot it was telling they used KJ as a big in late night, and he played exceptionally well. He has really bulked up, and looks almost as big as MM.
MM as in Mark Mangino? Boy, that is really BIG!!!
-
Kcmatt7 said:
The only thing that sucks is I know Bill will never have someone besides Dotson or Moore at PG. Which really ruins several of my fantasy lineups where we don’t have a player on the floor under 6’4 lol
Grimes played PG for the USA team coached by Bil Self at the Under 18 Tournament and he did great, MVP of the Tournament.
-
wissox said:
Funny to me to hear people here, (not on this discussion today) but in general to be not very high on Charlie Moore. This kid is really very good and I think will be a key performer, probably off the bench.
Did you see him play at Cal at all?
-
In General, I’ve seen the KU fanbase on both ends of the spectrum regarding Charlie.
You have those that think he’ll start the season because of his experience both at Cal and his 1 year with the KU program. He has seniority over Devon, something that we’ve seen play out in his favor in the past.
I’ve seen those who think he won’t amount to much here based on anything from his size, his HS ranking, his shooting metrics at Cal etc.
In his favor at the minimum, Self took him into the program without hesitation. Everything we’ve heard about his character and work ethic has been A++. The Lawson’s might be here only a year but Charlie most likely ends his career a Hawk 3 years from now. Will be exciting to watch his development here
-
BeddieKU23 said:
Did you see him play at Cal at all?
I think I watched a little once. However, I did see him in person once as well. It was at a holiday tournament in Chicago and while I had no knowledge of anyone on the floor at the time, immediately as the game began his skill became very clear. He stood out and was playing in a game on a team that would win state in Illinois that year.
-
I am pretty high on Moore. He will be the starting PG but Dotson will likely take over somewhere in the season but no doubt Moore will see substantial playing time. Nice to have a PG that can step in at any time with little or no drop in team performance.
-
@BShark We said the same thing about Frank after his freshman year. If Charlie starts to play ME-BALL, he’ll get pulled real quick.
-
wissox said:
BeddieKU23 said:
Did you see him play at Cal at all?
I think I watched a little once. However, I did see him in person once as well. It was at a holiday tournament in Chicago and while I had no knowledge of anyone on the floor at the time, immediately as the game began his skill became very clear. He stood out and was playing in a game on a team that would win state in Illinois that year.
Must have been cool to reflect now on him now that he’s a Hawk.
I watched a handful of Cal games his freshman year. A few of them Charlie was very good, on a bad team. His role at KU will be completely different then what he had at Cal so it will be interesting to see how he’s adjusted to life under Bill Self. I expect we’ll see some good flashes from him.
-
Did you see Self’s comments yesterday about Charlie?
“The thing about Charlie that people might not understand is people equate him to being a point guard just because he’s not very tall,” KU coach Bill Self recently told the Journal-World. “But the bottom line is this dude can score. He’ll play some point for us, but he’ll probably play every bit as much off the ball. He can play point guard, but I still think he’d be better if he had a point guard in the game with him.”
-
Frank Mason was a SG in HS and a volume scorer but his role changed at KU and worked out great for him.
-
BeddieKU23 said:
He can play point guard, but I still think he’d be better if he had a point guard in the game with him.”
That is why I don’t think he will get much time. Are we better with Charlie on the court wtih Dotson. Or Dotson with Garrett/Vick/KJ/Grimes combo? That group is just so long and talented that I can’t see Moore playing much.
-
BeddieKU23 said:
In General, I’ve seen the KU fanbase on both ends of the spectrum regarding Charlie.
You have those that think he’ll start the season because of his experience both at Cal and his 1 year with the KU program. He has seniority over Devon, something that we’ve seen play out in his favor in the past.
I’ve seen those who think he won’t amount to much here based on anything from his size, his HS ranking, his shooting metrics at Cal etc.
In his favor at the minimum, Self took him into the program without hesitation. Everything we’ve heard about his character and work ethic has been A++. The Lawson’s might be here only a year but Charlie most likely ends his career a Hawk 3 years from now. Will be exciting to watch his development here
I’m actually worried Moore ends up transferring again. Might be completely unfounded though. Can’t wait for the season to get here and see how Self goes with minutes.
-
@BeddieKU23 That same tournament is when I saw future and now former Hawk Markese Jacobs play and met Jerrance Howard. It’s a great tournament which has so many future college and pro stars play.
-
JayHawkFanToo said:
Frank Mason was a SG in HS and a volume scorer but his role changed at KU and worked out great for him.
If Charlie is on a similar career arc to Mason then I find it unlikely that he’s KU’s starting PG this year. Self’s comments all but said he’s not focused on him as the primary PG on this team.
Let’s not forget Frank took years to transition his role into the scoring/facilitating machine he was as a Sr.
Whoever wins the gig is a win/win for KU and its fans. We have depth at the position and the competition for the spot should benefit everyone
-
Kcmatt7 said:
BeddieKU23 said:
He can play point guard, but I still think he’d be better if he had a point guard in the game with him.”
That is why I don’t think he will get much time. Are we better with Charlie on the court wtih Dotson. Or Dotson with Garrett/Vick/KJ/Grimes combo? That group is just so long and talented that I can’t see Moore playing much.
I agree although I do think Charlie plays somewhere in the 12-18 minute range. His scoring ability should get him on the court, I view his role similar to Vick’s two seasons ago when Self used him off the bench.
-
I don’t see any Frank in Moore. Frank was a lot more athletic.
-
BShark said:
BeddieKU23 said:
In General, I’ve seen the KU fanbase on both ends of the spectrum regarding Charlie.
You have those that think he’ll start the season because of his experience both at Cal and his 1 year with the KU program. He has seniority over Devon, something that we’ve seen play out in his favor in the past.
I’ve seen those who think he won’t amount to much here based on anything from his size, his HS ranking, his shooting metrics at Cal etc.
In his favor at the minimum, Self took him into the program without hesitation. Everything we’ve heard about his character and work ethic has been A++. The Lawson’s might be here only a year but Charlie most likely ends his career a Hawk 3 years from now. Will be exciting to watch his development here
I’m actually worried Moore ends up transferring again. Might be completely unfounded though. Can’t wait for the season to get here and see how Self goes with minutes.
I have that worry as well with how the rules are for grad-transfers. I hope he sticks it out as I think he’ll make a big impact on this team as a Jr & Sr. Have stated that many times
-
BShark said:
I don’t see any Frank in Moore. Frank was a lot more athletic.
I get the scoring guard comparison but it stops there. Frank has developed into a legitimate PG now, his play for the Kings already in the pre-season shows that
-
BeddieKU23 said:
BShark said:
I don’t see any Frank in Moore. Frank was a lot more athletic.
I get the scoring guard comparison but it stops there. Frank has developed into a legitimate PG now, his play for the Kings already in the pre-season shows that
I think Moore could grow into a good player for sure but their games are a lot different.
I do hope he toughs it out too though. I think he’s much closer to Andrew White than Cunliffe, Whitman, Maxwell.*
*This is just from a good at basketball stand point and not player type of course.
-
Charlie was thrust into a tough situation at Cal, where 4 starters were hurt from the git-go, and he was relied on for the bulk of the scoring on a P-5 team as a freshman for a good portion of the season. I think with a much better supporting cast, with less pg responsibilities, he will be a great offensive weapon off the bench. The shothog moniker is a bit unfair in lieu of the circumstances at Cal. After watching Dotson, i just don’t see how they could start Charlie over him, even in the beginning. And that’s not a knock on Charlie- I just think Dotson is way more advanced than I had originally speculated.
-
BShark said:
BeddieKU23 said:
BShark said:
I don’t see any Frank in Moore. Frank was a lot more athletic.
I get the scoring guard comparison but it stops there. Frank has developed into a legitimate PG now, his play for the Kings already in the pre-season shows that
I think Moore could grow into a good player for sure but their games are a lot different.
I do hope he toughs it out too though. I think he’s much closer to Andrew White than Cunliffe, Whitman, Maxwell.*
*This is just from a good at basketball stand point and not player type of course.
Agree, Charlie is a good basketball player. It was evident at Cal he was good enough to play almost anywhere despite his size. He has skill and I think his ability to score, make perimeter shots has a role on this team this season. At Cal he was fearless getting into the lane and either taking the shot or setting up teammates despite his size (a Frank comp in a way). We’ve seen some footage of him at KU setting up the bigs already which is the start of the transition I wanted to see out of him.
I highly suggest anyone who’s high on Charlie to find some actual game footage of him at Cal. He’s not a traditional PG, Self has pointed this out for anyone who will listen. It’s a role I do think he can develop into as we’ve seen Frank & Devonte do recently. Be patient.
-
Several KU players interviewed over the Summer indicated Moore is the best 3 point shooter in the team, the area where KU is not loaded like previous years. He might be the right player for situations when a 3 point shooter is needed.
-
Good stuff. Agree
-
It also looks like KJ has improved his perimeter shooting as well. His shot looked smooth and natural in the Late Night scrimmage. He could be another pleasant surprise there.
-
BShark said:
I don’t see any Frank in Moore. Frank was a lot more athletic.
Mason was really fast, stronger, had a better handle (which has gotten ever better if you’ve watched him lately), and was a better passer (which has also improved lately: 26-3 assist to turnover ratio in the preseason). He was also one of the best finishers at the rim I’ve ever seen at Kansas, and I see none of that in Moore. Not trying to kill Charlie here, but Frank was a NPOY and if life was fair, would start for the Kings this season. It’s not really a fair comparison for Moore.
-
@JayHawkFanToo I am remaining hopeful that we can get enough from Charlie, Vick and KJ.
-
HawkChamp said:
@JayHawkFanToo I am remaining hopeful that we can get enough from Charlie, Vick and KJ.
Grimes & Dedric as well. Those 5 should make up the bulk of the volume and makes for this team. Devon & Marcus will have their share of attempts as well but its a wait and see how much they have improved in that area
-
Me too. We are going from teams with good 3 point shooters to a question mark and the only apparent weakness for the team. Success from the 3 makes the team unstoppable.
-
JayHawkFanToo said:
Several KU players interviewed over the Summer indicated Moore is the best 3 point shooter in the team, the area where KU is not loaded like previous years. He might be the right player for situations when a 3 point shooter is needed.
I was thinking this as well. Then I thought about defense. I just don’t see big minutes in Charlie’s future unless he’s better at D than advertised.
-
Oh yah, Im super psyched about this! We may not have Frank and DG anymore but with Dedric, we have a guy that is, according to Self, the best passer KU has had since Miles. That’s sick! Devon, Charlie seem to be very capable of filling shoes there too. Can’t wait for the games!
-
@KUSTEVE Deeeeeeeep! I wonder if Self will extend his bench to 9-10 guys late into the season. Kinda seems like he’ll have to with all those guys.
-
History indicates about 8 guys will separate themselves and Self will favor playing those guys especially in big/tight games.
-
-
BShark said:
History indicates about 8 guys will separate themselves and Self will favor playing those guys especially in big/tight games.
That would be disappointing given the depth.
If the Starting Lineup is say - Dotson, Grimes, Vick, Dedric, Doke.
Who’s the next 3? An eligible Silvio (6), KJ, (7), Marcus (8).
I know sustaining 12 guys playing every game is not happening. But I think Self is going to have to find a way to play at least 9, 10.
-
@BeddieKU23 I’d love to see Self become more aggressive defensively and play a full 11 man rotation, but he is so damn stubborn. I expect to see 11 guys until B12 play. At that point, hopefully we are playing so well that he can’t sit anyone.
I just don’t know where you sit guys. Usually it is easy to see the 8. Or hell, really the top 7. But not this year. We have a top 25 team sitting on the bench.
Truth be told, I expect to see Big Dave get almost no run come conference play. Unless Mitch becomes a great trail 3 point shooter and lob passer, he won’t play. So that puts us at 9 pretty quickly. I think KJ might end up eating any minutes at the 4 not picked up by Doke, Dedric and DeSousa.
-
Depth ALWAYS works itself out. There will be 2 or 3 guys that either: 1. are careless with the ball and make stupid turnovers 2. get blown by on defense or miss box outs 3. take bad shots. This will mean a short leash and a seat next to coach Self. I dont care how “deep” we seem to be, there always seem to be short leash guys with Coach Self.
