Modern Basketball vs Bill Self
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Ralster said:
Someone explain to me why some here are considering Malik, Devonté, Svi, Frank, Vick, as “less athletic” than Villanova’s NONkentucky level athletes? Just where does that come from? So I suppose that UNI team with Farokhmanesh, O’Rear, Egelseder was more athletic than our guys…just because they beat us??
Because Svi and Graham in particular are not great athletes for this level.
The UNI team was not more athletic. They slowed the game down to a crawl and had a big guy that rarely took them drain some threes.
I can’t speak for anyone else but I don’t use athleticism as a built in excuse, it just so happens to be true in this case. And true to have even higher level with Landen Lucas vs Bell of Oregon.
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@BShark it’s hard to put into words how much I hate those kind of articles.
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I wonder if top level recruits read these quotes from NBA scouts… This article quotes a scout saying that Miller misused Ayton and he would have been much better in a 4 guard lineup.
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Phoenix is going to be relevant again. If you’re Sacramento are you drafting Bagley second?
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@approxinfinity I heard them also talk about how bad his D was and he was a center in the nba and needed to protect the rim.
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Doke was just starting to become effective when the year ended. His FT % hurt him and us big.
There aren’t many players in D1 with his size. He really needs to learn how to dominate in D1 before thinking pro ball. And pro ball doesn’t really play Doke’s low post, back to the basket, game. I just don’t see him leaving now.
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@approxinfinity Luka Doncic. If you want to compete with the warriors you need all five players on the court able to defend the 1-5. Ayton can’t neither can Bagley. 6’8”+ with guard skills is the new 7 footer.
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https://theathletic.com/624602/2018/11/01/the-power-forward-is-dead-long-live-the-playmaking-four/
Good article here, with some quotes from Self.
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Wait ya Doke is a JR isn’t he? - -but you and I but know he won’t come back. you know what though? – If the guys wants to declare for the NBA after this year – then let him go ya know? - -the Reason I don’t think it’s going to help him one way or another to stay or not to stay.
Like you and I have both mentioned in round about ways in the past , If he comes back – I just don’t think he can improve enough to make a very big impact in the NBA - like has been mentioned , he is one of those old time 5’s - -like you mention her big’s that still post up – ONLY 9 in the league . – Doke also like I’ve said just doesn’t have the foot speed to keep up with NBA modern today big men- OR speed period
I know sound like I’m a hater but I’m not - -I love Doke , but as mentioned yesterday in the article they got him listed as the 53- prospect , hmmmm reality check–that’s not good. That’s right at the bottom of the 2nd round isn’t it?
If that is a fairly accurate possible draft pick - -let’s be serious do we really think that he could improve his status enough to come back? - -Bottom line is at the end of the day I just don’t see he could. That’s why I say either way but if he wants to go then let him go after this year and he if anything could go over sea’s and make s ome money - -probably could do good over water. - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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Maybe not getting a 4 means we’ll have to go back to the 4 out. That’s ok with me…
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The more I watch Doke, the more I struggle to see a place for him in the modern NBA. The NBA wants big men like Silvio (who is probably headed to the NBA next year anyway). There just isn’t much upside for a big that can’t handle the ball, shoot past ten feet or switch onto guards. Doke is in the wrong era. He’d already be in the NBA if this was the 90’s because his size would be coveted by every team trying to deal with Shaq, Ewing, Olajuwon, Mourning, etc. But that era has passed.
You have to go skill guys 1-5. The NBA is moving away from guys at either extreme. You will see fewer guys under 6-2 in the NBA, but also fewer guys over 6-10 because everyone needs to be able to guard anyone on the other team. A really big guy is at the same disadvantage as a really small guy. That’s the new trend. You want a bunch of guys 6-5 to 6-8 (why Quentin Grimes is a top 5 pick right now IMHO - he can play PG and is 6-5).
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justanotherfan said:
The more I watch Doke, the more I struggle to see a place for him in the modern NBA. The NBA wants big men like Silvio (who is probably headed to the NBA next year anyway). There just isn’t much upside for a big that can’t handle the ball, shoot past ten feet or switch onto guards. Doke is in the wrong era. He’d already be in the NBA if this was the 90’s because his size would be coveted by every team trying to deal with Shaq, Ewing, Olajuwon, Mourning, etc. But that era has passed.
You have to go skill guys 1-5. The NBA is moving away from guys at either extreme. You will see fewer guys under 6-2 in the NBA, but also fewer guys over 6-10 because everyone needs to be able to guard anyone on the other team. A really big guy is at the same disadvantage as a really small guy. That’s the new trend. You want a bunch of guys 6-5 to 6-8 (why Quentin Grimes is a top 5 pick right now IMHO - he can play PG and is 6-5).
I agree. I think Doke needs to stay and get his degree at this point.
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Doke staying would solve a lot of issues for next year as well. I’d be down for it.
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The only value in NBA for guys like Doke with no outside offensive game is rim protection. Thing is, Doke isn’t quick enough off his feet for that at the NBA level.
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Wish I could have read the rest of that article.
I look at the big 4s and 5s becoming extinct if they can’t make big offensive plays outside of the paint. Big plays include nailing the trey, but also mastering high ball screens and becoming excellent passers.
When big guys can make big plays outside of the paint they force the big defenders out of the paint. That is crucial to open up the rim, and also make it easier to nab offensive boards.
Big guys are crucial for defending the rim and rebounding.
I’m defending the big guys in this post, but everyone in here knows me as the “x-axis guy” who would take on any team if I had 5 guards that could really play all aspects of the game, including boxing out.
Where I see the game changing is now coaches see they can win big or small, and the key is to put their best players on the floor, regardless of their size.
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@justanotherfan 100% agree, Doke is a solid college player no doubt but he is almost completely ineffective more than 5 feet away from the bucket. He also isn’t a great rebounder or shot blocker like Aldrich, Withey and some of the other bigs we have had.
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Good lord, tonight speaks volume. Same old Billy.
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Pounding into the paint when you have elite guards is bland.
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Can KU afford to play Doke and Dedric at the same time? I would argue not in 90% of games. Self will do it though, to the detriment of this team.
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He did go small, 4-1
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Keep doke out of foul trouble
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Crimsonorblue22 said:
He did go small, 4-1
Yes. Just in time. I just wonder about it going forward. I think Doke + Dedric is a nightmare for KU defensively because of their lack of speed.
Something to keep an eye on. Dedric and Doke both expect minutes of course. Dedric needs to be waaaay better than tonight.
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Can’t think dedric is gonna always be this bad
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Crimsonorblue22 said:
Can’t think dedric is gonna always be this bad
He will have better defensive nights but he will always be this slow. It’s a big issue defensively.
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Beyond the defensive and speed issues, I think the biggest problem for Dedric tonight was trying to force things. If he plays within the flow of the offense he will be fine on that end.
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@BShark 100% agree, now its early but so far small ball looks way better than 2 bigs. Dedric just hasnt been good but let’s give him a few more games as well.
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Lawson 5-24 from the floor the first two games. An icey 20.8%.
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@kjayhawks It’s the style Doke is used to. He thrives in it. I get that we have a lot of bigs but man, I’d consider mostly rotating Dedric and Doke at the 5. Maybe play with Dedric and Doke 5-10 minutes a game. Run out Garrett/Mitch/KJ at the 4.
Trying not to overreact to two games but KU has been abused defensively.
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@BShark we got a tough schedule we’ll get it worked out!
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@BShark at this point that’s the best option. Things can change for sure but if Dedric cant score, it’s hard for me to think he needs to do anything but give doke breathers. Grimes, Dotson, Vick, Moore, KJ and Mitch can run a good 4 guard line up with Doke or Dedric on the block. I bet Self and staff have a conversation about this tonight.
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Crimsonorblue22 said:
@BShark we got a tough schedule we’ll get it worked out!
I don’t think you can work out how slow Doke and Dedric are. Maybe mask it a bit, but they aren’t getting faster.
Also Vermont is sub 100 on kenpom. They are okay. Better than struggling with Denver like KSU did.
Thank goodness Self took Vick back!
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kjayhawks said:
@BShark at this point that’s the best option. Things can change for sure but if Dedric cant score, it’s hard for me to think he needs to do anything but give doke breathers. Grimes, Dotson, Vick, Moore, KJ and Mitch can run a good 4 guard line up with Doke or Dedric on the block. I bet Self and staff have a conversation about this tonight.
Well, Dedric has to play, he’s too good not too. But he needs to play within the offense. He only took 6 shots tonight, but most were forced. The missed lay-up was a good take but super brutal to miss it.
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@BShark He’s gonna have to start dunking those. People always say a layup is an easy shot and I agree but at his size a dunk should be easier. I also felt like he got schooled by Lamb several times. This isn’t MSU struggling against mid major bigs spells big trouble for him. I’ll be honest at this point, I seen nothing that makes me think hes too good not to be out there. He maybe hoping SDS doesn’t get cleared if he has many more like today.
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@kjayhawks He didn’t have too many games like this at Memphis, even against more athletic competition. I think he will get it together.
Not excusing Dedric, but Lamb is a good one. Entire America East will be in the chamber lol. Going to box score watch Lamb this year.
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Interesting
Matt Galloway @themattgalloway 7m7 minutes ago
Self on Dedric Lawson’s scoreless performance in 19 minutes: He’s a good player, and this may be the best thing that’s ever happened to him if he responds favorably, which I think he will. #kubball
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@BShark true story, I dont want to harp on him too much. He is still used to playing in empty gyms against C-USA competition. I think Kenpom is high for having these guys rated as the worst on our schedule. I bet UL-L is a much bigger win Friday.
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kjayhawks said:
@BShark true story, I dont want to harp on him too much. He is still used to playing in empty gyms against C-USA competition. I think Kenpom is high for having these guys rated as the worst on our schedule. I bet UL-L is a much bigger win Friday.
Louisiana is rated below Vermont. South Dakota and EMich as well. But yeah, they might be better than people thought.
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@BShark interesting I could’ve swore Gurley said on pregame this currently was the worst rated team on our schedule per Kenpom.
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kjayhawks said:
@BShark interesting I could’ve swore Gurley said on pregame this currently was the worst rated team on our schedule per Kenpom.
Well, it is Gurley so there you go.
