Modern Basketball vs Bill Self
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I gotta say, I love the modern style of ball.
Imagine, in theory: If you have 5 guys that can shoot or drive, the other team is screwed. Just hang all your guys out beyond 3 point range and set screens, dribble-weave, whatever. If the defense sags, drain a 3 on them. If they guard the 3, drive past them. It’s beautiful. Chicks dig the long ball, and chicks dig the layups/dunks.
Dok-ball is more of a necessary evil than it is a beauty to watch. You watch it and like it because it works (except against 'Nova). But it ain’t pretty. No one likes to see a guy back his man down (still don’t know why that’s legal) and throw up some ugly hook. Olajuwon is about the only guy I can think of in recent history who has made the inside game beautiful, mostly due to his footwork and fakes.
Otherwise, it’s ugly. It just is.
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@chriz this chick likes embiid style
Including all his 3’s. Sweet moves!
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@Crimsonorblue22 Embiid is a boss, no doubt.
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The post is so difficult because of the number of turnovers caused/created. With double teams forcing the ball out of the post, if your post is not a very good passer, you can’t capitalize on post ups when there are double teams.
Once upon a time, a post guy could be a black hole type player and still succeed. That is not the case any more.
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@BShark good post.
Pretty cool that JoJo is on that list. Of course I am biased but I think he is the best on that list of 9.
IMO, Doke gets an invite to the combine but he comes back. He is not complete. He needs to work on his free throws, his rebounding and his shot outside of 5 feet. For crying out loud he could be averaging 10-12 boards per game!! Granted, we shot treys at record pace so most of those misses went long and our guards gottem but still!! Oh and did I mention he needed to work on his free throws??? SMH. Dont get me wrong. I love Doke. He is a beast. But he aint NBA ready yet. He comes back next season, he could go in the lotto next June, for real.
Also, I absolutely think Coach Self uses a four guard line up again. But not primarily! He has waaaaay too many bigs at his disposal.
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drgnslayr said:
Yeah… the post game is becoming rare in all of basketball. Hard to beat the odds with an inside game when you spot the perimeter an extra point on every score.
Our loss in the tournament was more than just flipping to more treys. We were guarded much tighter on the perimeter versus our attempts at defending Nova’s perimeter. But even if we were better at defending the line, I’d still give Nova the advantage because they shot through our defense from the perimeter more than we did against them. That extra point did prove out to be a key factor, too.
One thing will be very different next year… we won’t be limited to one post player on the floor at a time. The argument for the 4-guard offense is that it spreads defenses out so our post player can dominate the paint and score easier. The key factor in all of that is timing, spacing and passing. Even though we were fairly efficient at that, we weren’t quite efficient enough with it against Nova, and their sticky defense.
Next year, Doke (if he remains) will have help in the post area. Yes, it will clog up more space in the paint… but if it forces more double-teams, then someone is open, now another post player nearby and nearby the basket. It’s just a different brand of basketball, one that Self knows well with his inside-out history.
I am one of those guys that like a 4-guard offense, but I’m game to just let Bill do what he knows best, the inside-out and focusing on inside scoring.
What we missed in the 4-guard offense was rebounding. That was the silent killer for us all year. Having at least one more post player on the floor at the same time should help us over that issue. Another weakness was defense. We could have used more size on the floor to help that out. We often sagged our defense with plenty of not-so-good weakside help. That ended up being one of the biggest factor (if not the biggest) in our loss to Nova. We kept doubling players with the ball once they came inside the trey line with the ball. That always left someone open, and we paid dearly from their trey effectiveness.
I’m anxious to see our new post next year! I know Bill knows how to use a bigger lineup!
Yes, what he said.
But I also think we will see the 4 guard offense at times, albeit with a bigger line up.
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Crimsonorblue22 said:
@chriz this chick likes embiid style
Including all his 3’s. Sweet moves!Yeah I actually almost put his name in there with Olajuwon. Point is, unless you’re a freak of nature from Africa, I’d rather watch an outside game.
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I hope we will see the 4-guard lineup sometimes! It would be great if we keep more tools in our tool chest.
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@chriz I doubt you meant it that way but that statement sounds a little racist. No malice.
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Heck… I’d like to see a 5-guard offense sometimes. Why? Because it forces the guys to compensate. The only way to stop a decent opponent with a big man is for our guards guarding their guards to put enough pressure on them to stop an easy pass in the post… something we should have been doing all year but we didn’t. Our guard defense this year wasn’t up to snuff. That showed in our Nova loss, big time.
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@drgnslayr Our guard defense has sucked since the rule change. I want to see guard D like Villanova’s or even TexasTech.
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@dylans Well, Svi, Frank, Newman and DG were always going to have deficiencies on D from either size or athleticism. Vick was truly a disappointment on that end though.
Doesn’t help when you have no rim protection covering up for it either.
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Barney said:
@chriz I doubt you meant it that way but that statement sounds a little racist. No malice.
I figured you’d know what I meant. I’m not one to walk on eggshells.
(If I were African I’d consider that a compliment if anything! I’m almost saying Africans are the only guys who can make a post game beautiful!)
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Self is a prisoner of his success.
.820, 14 conference titles, 1 ring, and 10M bones per year, blind him to: 3 > 2.
Jay lacked that success, but wanted it.
Jay acknowledged 3 > 2.
Jay now has 2 rings.
Bill still has 1.
Defense rests.
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@BShark (i like your cat avatar, but u realize he could have just spotted a little murine jayhawk AllenFieldMouse, trying to hide behind Sec.F, Row.2…)
I really think Self’s small ball was a function of his personnel limitations, will we actually have enough trey-competent 3shooter-guards to field a small team? While we have 6 playable bigs? Those other Cats, without Dean Wade, were forced to play small ball, but couldnt built a Final4 run with their 3bricker/4sh!tter offense.
See Self adapt once again to the strengths on the ‘18-19 roster…
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@dylans Let’s hope Dedric is mentally rougher and tougher than niceguy Perry. Let’s revisit Perry’s final crunchtime performance: couple of early charge calls, couple of top of key giveaways for Nova dunks, and didn’t attempt a single 3 with his 40% trey gun, while Frank and Wayne were misfiring from 3, and Mista3, BGreene was in such a doghouse that his 3gun was MIA also: didnt play a single minute. Of course we needed Perry to be Spellman, or Marcus, or even his senior yr self, but he was none of the above, when we needed him the most.
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Someone explain to me why some here are considering Malik, Devonté, Svi, Frank, Vick, as “less athletic” than Villanova’s NONkentucky level athletes? Just where does that come from? So I suppose that UNI team with Farokhmanesh, O’Rear, Egelseder was more athletic than our guys…just because they beat us??
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Ralster said:
Someone explain to me why some here are considering Malik, Devonté, Svi, Frank, Vick, as “less athletic” than Villanova’s NONkentucky level athletes? Just where does that come from? So I suppose that UNI team with Farokhmanesh, O’Rear, Egelseder was more athletic than our guys…just because they beat us??
Because Svi and Graham in particular are not great athletes for this level.
The UNI team was not more athletic. They slowed the game down to a crawl and had a big guy that rarely took them drain some threes.
I can’t speak for anyone else but I don’t use athleticism as a built in excuse, it just so happens to be true in this case. And true to have even higher level with Landen Lucas vs Bell of Oregon.
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@BShark it’s hard to put into words how much I hate those kind of articles.
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I wonder if top level recruits read these quotes from NBA scouts… This article quotes a scout saying that Miller misused Ayton and he would have been much better in a 4 guard lineup.
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Phoenix is going to be relevant again. If you’re Sacramento are you drafting Bagley second?
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@approxinfinity I heard them also talk about how bad his D was and he was a center in the nba and needed to protect the rim.
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Doke was just starting to become effective when the year ended. His FT % hurt him and us big.
There aren’t many players in D1 with his size. He really needs to learn how to dominate in D1 before thinking pro ball. And pro ball doesn’t really play Doke’s low post, back to the basket, game. I just don’t see him leaving now.
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@approxinfinity Luka Doncic. If you want to compete with the warriors you need all five players on the court able to defend the 1-5. Ayton can’t neither can Bagley. 6’8”+ with guard skills is the new 7 footer.
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https://theathletic.com/624602/2018/11/01/the-power-forward-is-dead-long-live-the-playmaking-four/
Good article here, with some quotes from Self.
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Wait ya Doke is a JR isn’t he? - -but you and I but know he won’t come back. you know what though? – If the guys wants to declare for the NBA after this year – then let him go ya know? - -the Reason I don’t think it’s going to help him one way or another to stay or not to stay.
Like you and I have both mentioned in round about ways in the past , If he comes back – I just don’t think he can improve enough to make a very big impact in the NBA - like has been mentioned , he is one of those old time 5’s - -like you mention her big’s that still post up – ONLY 9 in the league . – Doke also like I’ve said just doesn’t have the foot speed to keep up with NBA modern today big men- OR speed period
I know sound like I’m a hater but I’m not - -I love Doke , but as mentioned yesterday in the article they got him listed as the 53- prospect , hmmmm reality check–that’s not good. That’s right at the bottom of the 2nd round isn’t it?
If that is a fairly accurate possible draft pick - -let’s be serious do we really think that he could improve his status enough to come back? - -Bottom line is at the end of the day I just don’t see he could. That’s why I say either way but if he wants to go then let him go after this year and he if anything could go over sea’s and make s ome money - -probably could do good over water. - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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Maybe not getting a 4 means we’ll have to go back to the 4 out. That’s ok with me…
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The more I watch Doke, the more I struggle to see a place for him in the modern NBA. The NBA wants big men like Silvio (who is probably headed to the NBA next year anyway). There just isn’t much upside for a big that can’t handle the ball, shoot past ten feet or switch onto guards. Doke is in the wrong era. He’d already be in the NBA if this was the 90’s because his size would be coveted by every team trying to deal with Shaq, Ewing, Olajuwon, Mourning, etc. But that era has passed.
You have to go skill guys 1-5. The NBA is moving away from guys at either extreme. You will see fewer guys under 6-2 in the NBA, but also fewer guys over 6-10 because everyone needs to be able to guard anyone on the other team. A really big guy is at the same disadvantage as a really small guy. That’s the new trend. You want a bunch of guys 6-5 to 6-8 (why Quentin Grimes is a top 5 pick right now IMHO - he can play PG and is 6-5).
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justanotherfan said:
The more I watch Doke, the more I struggle to see a place for him in the modern NBA. The NBA wants big men like Silvio (who is probably headed to the NBA next year anyway). There just isn’t much upside for a big that can’t handle the ball, shoot past ten feet or switch onto guards. Doke is in the wrong era. He’d already be in the NBA if this was the 90’s because his size would be coveted by every team trying to deal with Shaq, Ewing, Olajuwon, Mourning, etc. But that era has passed.
You have to go skill guys 1-5. The NBA is moving away from guys at either extreme. You will see fewer guys under 6-2 in the NBA, but also fewer guys over 6-10 because everyone needs to be able to guard anyone on the other team. A really big guy is at the same disadvantage as a really small guy. That’s the new trend. You want a bunch of guys 6-5 to 6-8 (why Quentin Grimes is a top 5 pick right now IMHO - he can play PG and is 6-5).
I agree. I think Doke needs to stay and get his degree at this point.
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Doke staying would solve a lot of issues for next year as well. I’d be down for it.
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The only value in NBA for guys like Doke with no outside offensive game is rim protection. Thing is, Doke isn’t quick enough off his feet for that at the NBA level.
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Wish I could have read the rest of that article.
I look at the big 4s and 5s becoming extinct if they can’t make big offensive plays outside of the paint. Big plays include nailing the trey, but also mastering high ball screens and becoming excellent passers.
When big guys can make big plays outside of the paint they force the big defenders out of the paint. That is crucial to open up the rim, and also make it easier to nab offensive boards.
Big guys are crucial for defending the rim and rebounding.
I’m defending the big guys in this post, but everyone in here knows me as the “x-axis guy” who would take on any team if I had 5 guards that could really play all aspects of the game, including boxing out.
Where I see the game changing is now coaches see they can win big or small, and the key is to put their best players on the floor, regardless of their size.
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@justanotherfan 100% agree, Doke is a solid college player no doubt but he is almost completely ineffective more than 5 feet away from the bucket. He also isn’t a great rebounder or shot blocker like Aldrich, Withey and some of the other bigs we have had.
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Good lord, tonight speaks volume. Same old Billy.
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Pounding into the paint when you have elite guards is bland.
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Can KU afford to play Doke and Dedric at the same time? I would argue not in 90% of games. Self will do it though, to the detriment of this team.
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He did go small, 4-1
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Keep doke out of foul trouble
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Crimsonorblue22 said:
He did go small, 4-1
Yes. Just in time. I just wonder about it going forward. I think Doke + Dedric is a nightmare for KU defensively because of their lack of speed.
Something to keep an eye on. Dedric and Doke both expect minutes of course. Dedric needs to be waaaay better than tonight.
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Can’t think dedric is gonna always be this bad
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Crimsonorblue22 said:
Can’t think dedric is gonna always be this bad
He will have better defensive nights but he will always be this slow. It’s a big issue defensively.
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Beyond the defensive and speed issues, I think the biggest problem for Dedric tonight was trying to force things. If he plays within the flow of the offense he will be fine on that end.
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@BShark 100% agree, now its early but so far small ball looks way better than 2 bigs. Dedric just hasnt been good but let’s give him a few more games as well.
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Lawson 5-24 from the floor the first two games. An icey 20.8%.
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@kjayhawks It’s the style Doke is used to. He thrives in it. I get that we have a lot of bigs but man, I’d consider mostly rotating Dedric and Doke at the 5. Maybe play with Dedric and Doke 5-10 minutes a game. Run out Garrett/Mitch/KJ at the 4.
Trying not to overreact to two games but KU has been abused defensively.
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@BShark we got a tough schedule we’ll get it worked out!
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@BShark at this point that’s the best option. Things can change for sure but if Dedric cant score, it’s hard for me to think he needs to do anything but give doke breathers. Grimes, Dotson, Vick, Moore, KJ and Mitch can run a good 4 guard line up with Doke or Dedric on the block. I bet Self and staff have a conversation about this tonight.
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Crimsonorblue22 said:
@BShark we got a tough schedule we’ll get it worked out!
I don’t think you can work out how slow Doke and Dedric are. Maybe mask it a bit, but they aren’t getting faster.
Also Vermont is sub 100 on kenpom. They are okay. Better than struggling with Denver like KSU did.
Thank goodness Self took Vick back!
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kjayhawks said:
@BShark at this point that’s the best option. Things can change for sure but if Dedric cant score, it’s hard for me to think he needs to do anything but give doke breathers. Grimes, Dotson, Vick, Moore, KJ and Mitch can run a good 4 guard line up with Doke or Dedric on the block. I bet Self and staff have a conversation about this tonight.
Well, Dedric has to play, he’s too good not too. But he needs to play within the offense. He only took 6 shots tonight, but most were forced. The missed lay-up was a good take but super brutal to miss it.
