Modern Basketball vs Bill Self



  • Just an interesting nugget I stumbled across and we’ve been talking about this lately so I figured I would post it.

    Only 9 players in the NBA this year registered 400 or more post-ups.

    Lamarcus Aldrige, Dwight Howard, Joel Embiid, Nikola Jokic, Anthony Davis, Karl Anthony-Towns, Marc Gasol, Enes Kanter and Zach Randolph.

    That’s it. That’s the entire list.

    As an aside, Aldridge is a really special player. He has the lowest turnover percentage among these players by a mile. His ppp is almost 1 on post-ups which is pretty damn good and actually better than some pretty good players shooting out of pnr which kind of surprised me.

    Unsurprisingly KAT and Embiid also score fairly well in these situations.

    Doke is not KAT, Embiid or Aldridge.

    I hope Self realizes this if Doke comes back. I hope we still see KU play some small ball when needed here and there. Play efficient. Don’t make the game harder than it is.



  • @BShark

    Doke is not KAT, Embiid or Aldridge.

    All three of them are great rebounders and have 3 point range; not even close.



  • Pretty sure the whole world knows doke is not them.🤔



  • I agree small ball and a spread court is great, but are you saying there is no place in even college basketball for a Doke type?



  • @Crimsonorblue22 Great. It’s all set then. He’s coming back. One of us needs to let Doke know, though. ;)



  • @BShark You’re forgetting we have other options down low. They won’t be feeding Doke unless they’re driving…they’ll be feeding Dedric, who can take it to the hole, or take his defender out to the 3 point line, and make a 3 pointer. With Dedric shooting 3’s, small ball becomes big ball. Now, you might see an occasional entry pass, but now Doke has a ton of help down low if he doesn’t have a clear shot.



  • @KUSTEVE I contend that Perry’s senior year was the beginning of small ball for Bill. Dedric will be a continuation of that form of small ball if I had to bet.



  • @dylans Like I said…big ball. Small ball with a very big guy.



  • Crimsonorblue22 said:

    Pretty sure the whole world knows doke is not them.🤔

    Self might not given how much Doke posted up in some games.

    BigBad said:

    I agree small ball and a spread court is great, but are you saying there is no place in even college basketball for a Doke type?

    Not at all. He’s a rampaging dunk monster. I’m just saying posting him up is generally a bad idea at this point.

    KUSTEVE said:

    @BShark You’re forgetting we have other options down low. They won’t be feeding Doke unless they’re driving…they’ll be feeding Dedric, who can take it to the hole, or take his defender out to the 3 point line, and make a 3 pointer. With Dedric shooting 3’s, small ball becomes big ball. Now, you might see an occasional entry pass, but now Doke has a ton of help down low if he doesn’t have a clear shot.

    30% career 3pt shooter Dedric Lawson? I like his game and I’m sure he has been working on his shot but I hope he doesn’t take too many threes.

    Agree with feeding Dedric. I think he will be the main focal point of the offense. Lots of post moves, good passer and a great feel for the game. I feel like you can give him the ball and good things will generally happen.

    I’m hoping Grimes is good enough to be the secondary focal point of the offense. He has great body control and like Dedric a great feel for the game.



  • Which reminds me, give me the basketball lifer with a great feel for the game. Especially at the guard position. Unless the player is a total freak like Embiid.



  • @BShark

    Yeah… the post game is becoming rare in all of basketball. Hard to beat the odds with an inside game when you spot the perimeter an extra point on every score.

    Our loss in the tournament was more than just flipping to more treys. We were guarded much tighter on the perimeter versus our attempts at defending Nova’s perimeter. But even if we were better at defending the line, I’d still give Nova the advantage because they shot through our defense from the perimeter more than we did against them. That extra point did prove out to be a key factor, too.

    One thing will be very different next year… we won’t be limited to one post player on the floor at a time. The argument for the 4-guard offense is that it spreads defenses out so our post player can dominate the paint and score easier. The key factor in all of that is timing, spacing and passing. Even though we were fairly efficient at that, we weren’t quite efficient enough with it against Nova, and their sticky defense.

    Next year, Doke (if he remains) will have help in the post area. Yes, it will clog up more space in the paint… but if it forces more double-teams, then someone is open, now another post player nearby and nearby the basket. It’s just a different brand of basketball, one that Self knows well with his inside-out history.

    I am one of those guys that like a 4-guard offense, but I’m game to just let Bill do what he knows best, the inside-out and focusing on inside scoring.

    What we missed in the 4-guard offense was rebounding. That was the silent killer for us all year. Having at least one more post player on the floor at the same time should help us over that issue. Another weakness was defense. We could have used more size on the floor to help that out. We often sagged our defense with plenty of not-so-good weakside help. That ended up being one of the biggest factor (if not the biggest) in our loss to Nova. We kept doubling players with the ball once they came inside the trey line with the ball. That always left someone open, and we paid dearly from their trey effectiveness.

    I’m anxious to see our new post next year! I know Bill knows how to use a bigger lineup!



  • Yeah this team just didn’t have the defensive pieces that Nova does. It was more like the Hoiberg ISU teams.

    Doke is a very poor rebounder for his size. Dedric, Silvio and KJ are all ++ rebounders though.



  • Dedric clearing out the post to the free throw line allowing Dok one on one tea bag time with the defender is what I’m hoping for. Lob city. Demoralizing and devastating if they start fouling.



  • I would have to see a lot of advanced stats before I say we just completely abandon it. But overall, I agree that it shouldn’t be a main strategy offensively. It should be what we do as our under 10 seconds on the shot clock offense instead of driving the ball into traffic or something like that.

    What I want to see are lobs and more lobs to these guys, and our 2nd post player to be given the green light to shoot open 3s so the defense has to respect that and can’t help on the lob.

    We definitely need to spread the ball more. Just as a whole, i would like to see Bill go after some stretch 4 type of guys from here on out. He can go get his Blue Collar Center too, as long as he gets a modern big man who can shoot the 3 to compliment him.



  • I gotta say, I love the modern style of ball.

    Imagine, in theory: If you have 5 guys that can shoot or drive, the other team is screwed. Just hang all your guys out beyond 3 point range and set screens, dribble-weave, whatever. If the defense sags, drain a 3 on them. If they guard the 3, drive past them. It’s beautiful. Chicks dig the long ball, and chicks dig the layups/dunks.

    Dok-ball is more of a necessary evil than it is a beauty to watch. You watch it and like it because it works (except against 'Nova). But it ain’t pretty. No one likes to see a guy back his man down (still don’t know why that’s legal) and throw up some ugly hook. Olajuwon is about the only guy I can think of in recent history who has made the inside game beautiful, mostly due to his footwork and fakes.

    Otherwise, it’s ugly. It just is.



  • @chriz this chick likes embiid style💃 Including all his 3’s. Sweet moves!



  • @Crimsonorblue22 Embiid is a boss, no doubt.



  • The post is so difficult because of the number of turnovers caused/created. With double teams forcing the ball out of the post, if your post is not a very good passer, you can’t capitalize on post ups when there are double teams.

    Once upon a time, a post guy could be a black hole type player and still succeed. That is not the case any more.



  • @BShark good post.

    Pretty cool that JoJo is on that list. Of course I am biased but I think he is the best on that list of 9.

    IMO, Doke gets an invite to the combine but he comes back. He is not complete. He needs to work on his free throws, his rebounding and his shot outside of 5 feet. For crying out loud he could be averaging 10-12 boards per game!! Granted, we shot treys at record pace so most of those misses went long and our guards gottem but still!! Oh and did I mention he needed to work on his free throws??? SMH. Dont get me wrong. I love Doke. He is a beast. But he aint NBA ready yet. He comes back next season, he could go in the lotto next June, for real.

    Also, I absolutely think Coach Self uses a four guard line up again. But not primarily! He has waaaaay too many bigs at his disposal.



  • drgnslayr said:

    @BShark

    Yeah… the post game is becoming rare in all of basketball. Hard to beat the odds with an inside game when you spot the perimeter an extra point on every score.

    Our loss in the tournament was more than just flipping to more treys. We were guarded much tighter on the perimeter versus our attempts at defending Nova’s perimeter. But even if we were better at defending the line, I’d still give Nova the advantage because they shot through our defense from the perimeter more than we did against them. That extra point did prove out to be a key factor, too.

    One thing will be very different next year… we won’t be limited to one post player on the floor at a time. The argument for the 4-guard offense is that it spreads defenses out so our post player can dominate the paint and score easier. The key factor in all of that is timing, spacing and passing. Even though we were fairly efficient at that, we weren’t quite efficient enough with it against Nova, and their sticky defense.

    Next year, Doke (if he remains) will have help in the post area. Yes, it will clog up more space in the paint… but if it forces more double-teams, then someone is open, now another post player nearby and nearby the basket. It’s just a different brand of basketball, one that Self knows well with his inside-out history.

    I am one of those guys that like a 4-guard offense, but I’m game to just let Bill do what he knows best, the inside-out and focusing on inside scoring.

    What we missed in the 4-guard offense was rebounding. That was the silent killer for us all year. Having at least one more post player on the floor at the same time should help us over that issue. Another weakness was defense. We could have used more size on the floor to help that out. We often sagged our defense with plenty of not-so-good weakside help. That ended up being one of the biggest factor (if not the biggest) in our loss to Nova. We kept doubling players with the ball once they came inside the trey line with the ball. That always left someone open, and we paid dearly from their trey effectiveness.

    I’m anxious to see our new post next year! I know Bill knows how to use a bigger lineup!

    Yes, what he said. :100: :100: :100:

    But I also think we will see the 4 guard offense at times, albeit with a bigger line up.



  • Crimsonorblue22 said:

    @chriz this chick likes embiid style💃 Including all his 3’s. Sweet moves!

    Yeah I actually almost put his name in there with Olajuwon. Point is, unless you’re a freak of nature from Africa, I’d rather watch an outside game.



  • @Lulufulu

    I hope we will see the 4-guard lineup sometimes! It would be great if we keep more tools in our tool chest.



  • @chriz I doubt you meant it that way but that statement sounds a little racist. No malice.



  • Heck… I’d like to see a 5-guard offense sometimes. Why? Because it forces the guys to compensate. The only way to stop a decent opponent with a big man is for our guards guarding their guards to put enough pressure on them to stop an easy pass in the post… something we should have been doing all year but we didn’t. Our guard defense this year wasn’t up to snuff. That showed in our Nova loss, big time.



  • @drgnslayr Our guard defense has sucked since the rule change. I want to see guard D like Villanova’s or even TexasTech.



  • @dylans Well, Svi, Frank, Newman and DG were always going to have deficiencies on D from either size or athleticism. Vick was truly a disappointment on that end though.

    Doesn’t help when you have no rim protection covering up for it either.



  • Barney said:

    @chriz I doubt you meant it that way but that statement sounds a little racist. No malice.

    I figured you’d know what I meant. I’m not one to walk on eggshells. 😁

    (If I were African I’d consider that a compliment if anything! I’m almost saying Africans are the only guys who can make a post game beautiful!)



  • Self is a prisoner of his success.

    .820, 14 conference titles, 1 ring, and 10M bones per year, blind him to: 3 > 2.

    Jay lacked that success, but wanted it.

    Jay acknowledged 3 > 2.

    Jay now has 2 rings.

    Bill still has 1.

    Defense rests.



  • @BShark (i like your cat avatar, but u realize he could have just spotted a little murine jayhawk AllenFieldMouse, trying to hide behind Sec.F, Row.2…)

    I really think Self’s small ball was a function of his personnel limitations, will we actually have enough trey-competent 3shooter-guards to field a small team? While we have 6 playable bigs? Those other Cats, without Dean Wade, were forced to play small ball, but couldnt built a Final4 run with their 3bricker/4sh!tter offense.

    See Self adapt once again to the strengths on the ‘18-19 roster…



  • @dylans Let’s hope Dedric is mentally rougher and tougher than niceguy Perry. Let’s revisit Perry’s final crunchtime performance: couple of early charge calls, couple of top of key giveaways for Nova dunks, and didn’t attempt a single 3 with his 40% trey gun, while Frank and Wayne were misfiring from 3, and Mista3, BGreene was in such a doghouse that his 3gun was MIA also: didnt play a single minute. Of course we needed Perry to be Spellman, or Marcus, or even his senior yr self, but he was none of the above, when we needed him the most.



  • Someone explain to me why some here are considering Malik, Devonté, Svi, Frank, Vick, as “less athletic” than Villanova’s NONkentucky level athletes? Just where does that come from? So I suppose that UNI team with Farokhmanesh, O’Rear, Egelseder was more athletic than our guys…just because they beat us??



  • Ralster said:

    Someone explain to me why some here are considering Malik, Devonté, Svi, Frank, Vick, as “less athletic” than Villanova’s NONkentucky level athletes? Just where does that come from? So I suppose that UNI team with Farokhmanesh, O’Rear, Egelseder was more athletic than our guys…just because they beat us??

    Because Svi and Graham in particular are not great athletes for this level.

    The UNI team was not more athletic. They slowed the game down to a crawl and had a big guy that rarely took them drain some threes.

    I can’t speak for anyone else but I don’t use athleticism as a built in excuse, it just so happens to be true in this case. And true to have even higher level with Landen Lucas vs Bell of Oregon.





  • @BShark it’s hard to put into words how much I hate those kind of articles.



  • I wonder if top level recruits read these quotes from NBA scouts… This article quotes a scout saying that Miller misused Ayton and he would have been much better in a 4 guard lineup.

    https://www.azdesertswarm.com/platform/amp/basketball/2018/5/16/17363142/nba-draft-deandre-ayton-suns-arizona-offense-archaic-wildcats-scouting-report-rumors-news



  • Phoenix is going to be relevant again. If you’re Sacramento are you drafting Bagley second?



  • @approxinfinity I heard them also talk about how bad his D was and he was a center in the nba and needed to protect the rim.



  • Doke was just starting to become effective when the year ended. His FT % hurt him and us big.

    There aren’t many players in D1 with his size. He really needs to learn how to dominate in D1 before thinking pro ball. And pro ball doesn’t really play Doke’s low post, back to the basket, game. I just don’t see him leaving now.



  • @approxinfinity Luka Doncic. If you want to compete with the warriors you need all five players on the court able to defend the 1-5. Ayton can’t neither can Bagley. 6’8”+ with guard skills is the new 7 footer.


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