• Tough loss. Our shortcomings were on display today, and they were numerous.

    Doke is not enough in the post, even if he stays out of foul trouble, and plays his best. He has tremendous strength, but also serious weaknesses. He does not high point the ball on rebounds, nor does he get up quickly. He does not have a great vertical, but has great length. He does not secure rebounds by getting his hand on the other side of it. He does not shoot beyond bunnies. He will be exposed by quick athletic bigs. Some issues can be corrected, others can be smoothed over, but smoothing over takes time. Probably another season. We need DeSousa and Preston. We just do.

    Lightfoot is more agile than Doke, but strength is still an issue and will be. This too will take time, and probably another season to really address.

    Malik is a bit of a headcase right now on O. I think he could learn a lot from watching video of Frank in transition. Remember Frank got swatted repeatedly early on. Sherron too. Should watch before and after Tyshawn tape too.

    Vick did his best, but he looked tremendously uncomfortable at the foul like for 2/3 of the game. Every shot looked a little different, like he just didn’t know what a 10 footer should feel like. If he’s expected to be that guy against the 2-3, he needs to practice that shot over and over. And over and over.

    We need to get the ball moving against the zone. This sitting around while the ball goes into the high post to an out-of-sorts Lagerald for the shot every single play is mind numbing. Our guys were standing around on the perimeter when they should have been getting open for the kick.I’m pretty sure Self knew that he was playing with PlayDoh and the other side had modeling clay about half way through the first. He partially owned the loss in his postgame, and I think thats fair. We were flat and our gameplan uninspired. Also, with a non-elite rebounder who lacks quick twitch hops / mobility, options are pretty limited passing to the interior.

    Svi’s shot from the corner was just not going to fall tonight. Devonte seemed to not know what he was supposed to do besides passing in to Vick. Garrett looked lost for a 3rd game.

    By the end of the game, we could not run or did not run with Washington. Very likely we were gased and shellshocked. Our lateral quickness was either timid or slow and got torched, and they dictated pace to ice the game. At one point Devonte (?) waited for Doke to get down the floor so he could throw an errant lob as the defense recovered.

    The good news is, we exposed a lot of weaknesses at once. Plenty of motivation to work our asses off in practice. The bad news is, some of this stuff can be corrected over the course of the next month, and some of it can’t be with this personnel and lack of bodies.

    Billy Preston probably would have been useful at the high post tonight. DeSouza probably would have been useful in the rebounding department.

    I really hope we get them this year, otherwise I’m tempering my expectations on being competitive to win the Big-12, and hoping to make it to the Sweet 16, with the certainty that some team lurking beyond that can exploit our weaknesses.

  • Same Song and Dance every time we lose. Missed shots, lack of effort on defense. They need to pull a 180 for Sunday that’s for sure

  • @approxinfinity Was it Fraschilla that kept saying that Vick would score 40 last night? Well, he could / should have scored 50 or 60 if he would TAKE THE BALL TO THE BASKET. He can do it - he has the athleticism to go around and/or over any player out there. He needs a dose of killer instinct. Hard to blame a loss on a guy that had 28 or whatever it was, but he was the only one out there with consistent open lanes to the basket and he just wouldn’t take them.

  • @nuleafjhawk I agree and I was saying that all game long. it seemed he had an open shot every time in the lane. That is what they were giving us. Maybe I am making it too simple, but we should have immediately gone to him EVERY time and have him put up the shot and make them adjust. Of course we didn’t defend very well either. Too many times they seemed to get what they wanted on offense. Part of that was us being thin up front, part from lack of energy.

  • Yep, Vick looked confused when he got the ball. We should have realized their game plan immediately and come out of the first 4 minute timeout with Vick catching the ball and immediately attacking the rim. Self should have told him that he needs to score 60 points if they are going to give him that all night. Also, we never had a chance at offensive rebounding with all 3 guards above the free throw line. Not to mention they were going for blocks every time someone went up for a shot. PUMP FAKE for crying out loud. Just frustrating when as fans we could see exactly what was going on last night and somehow Bill couldn’t get them to execute. Especially when we just played against a Syracuse team who ran the 2-3 and we have been practicing it now for 2 weeks.

  • Just read this quote: Hopkins admitted to ESPN that he called up his friends on the Syracuse coaching staff for tips after the Orange lost to the Jayhawks on Saturday.

    “I talked to their staff, that’s my extended family,” Hopkins told ESPN. “It was a great way to learn in terms of how we had to attack offensively and how we had to defend them.”

  • BeddieKU23 said:

    Same Song and Dance every time we lose. Missed shots, lack of effort on defense. They need to pull a 180 for Sunday that’s for sure

    I’m telling you agree for sure, if we play like this Sunday we will get run out of the gym - -Arizona State is legit - -very legit ranked # 16 I’m still just at a loss for what I watched last night, just a total collapse. - - ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

  • Bottom line with this team is - - We just plain out really struggle when we play against length.

    This was the 3rd game going up against length. - - We played Kentucky - struggles really struggles knocking down shots, - -against Syracuse we struggled for a big part of the game - - -Last night total collapse - -struggle not only finding the 3 - - -but hitting any kind of outside shot.

    Were gonna face this again with Baylor length, we are going to have to get this fixed and fixed fast. - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

  • Well said @approxinfinity this does look like another team that will flame out in the elite eight after being able to disguise their flaws against inferior opponents. Hopefully they get some post help to change the narrative.

  • @nuleafjhawk I actually thought Vick started driving a step to far to where he took a guarded shot instead of the open one. I know he was trying to draw the man out for the lob,but that was defended better by Washington in the second half with rotation. To me if he was going to drive he needed to go all the way to the rim. He still played well but he could have had a huge game. I agree with others the standing around and the ball sticking was a problem. To beat the zone you have to move the zone. I wish Doke and Mitch would play Defensive positioning the way Clay does. He may not be big enough but he is almost always in the right place.

  • @Kcmatt7 yes very frustrating to watch as no adjustments were made.

    Growing up playing basketball, the lane was the place my coaches told us to not allow the other team, let alone purposefully give to the opponent.

    After the Syracuse game, Vick and the staff should have had a better idea of what he needs to do in the zone and tell him to not be passive. Once the game started, it was clear that a 13 foot jumper or closer was going to be open all game. My coaches, when I was playing the high post against a zone, would have told my team to shoot that wide open shot every time and punish the other team for allowing it. Instead, we saw forced three point attempts, horrible passes or Vick going way too far towards the hoop and putting up a guarded shot.

    No reason that the team was this I’ll prepared. It makes me wonder what else is going on that determined this outcome.

  • @approxinfinity Yeah, you nailed it man. We looked horrible last night. We deserved to take that L. Its on Coach and the players. I’m just glad it didn’t happen at AFH. Although, they better work their tails off cuz #16 Arizona state @ home on sunday will not be an easy game. In fact, it might be our toughest game so far.

    PS. Why didn’t Coach put the new guy in instead of Young in the post? I mean yah he is new but 6’7" 260!! Its not even close!

  • @jayballer54 Dude they can play and win vs Length. I think the zone is more of a problem for these guys.

  • You know KU fans, Coach admitted that some of this loss is on him. Poor game planning was it? Well let me ask this question. SInce when is Coach ok with poor game planning? He is competitive and a perfectionist. Maybe he wanted his team to go out there and slog through a game. Maybe this was a teaching moment. I’m not saying he wanted to lose. I’m just saying he sent them out flat on purpose.

    Just a guess of course.

  • I kept wondering what would happen if we tried to get Devonte in the middle of the zone. Or really anyone else. Vick did fine several times but maybe KU could have gotten some other people involved and moving around by rotating who had all that space.

  • I wish I could have played against zones that allowed me to shoot an uncontested 12 foot shhot every time.

    @benshawks08 I was thinking the same thing during the game but, of course, Self did nothing.

    We also could have tried to catch Washington off guard and flash a couple of our wings to the lane when Lagerald caught it there. Just trying anything else would have been smart but instead we allowed something stupidly simple to beat us, and therefore beat ourselves.

  • I also agree Self probably sent them out a little flat on purpose. He was probably hoping Devonte would step up and lead in times of adversity as well as he does during times of success. He didn’t. He tried. To me, he is still trying to figure out whether he should score or distribute and hasn’t found the perfect balance yet. He is clearly gifted at both when he makes it a priority.

    It’s also interesting the new commitment Self is showing to the 3 point shot. I remember a few years ago when people on here moaned about how he loathed it and killed shooters’ confidence and so on and so forth. Last night you could tell he actively put in plays desperately trying to get some threes to fall.

    Overall, good game plan and execution by Washington and poor game plan and execution by KU. Even then we were down one at crunch time and one three falling for us and rimming out for them could have changed everything.

  • @benshawks08 the problem, in games like this (VCU, UNI, NOVA, Oregon), they have never shown to be able to shoot their way out. Either they are hitting or they are not. Poor game planing to not recognize that trend by now. It’s obvious to me.

  • @HawkChamp

    That is not correct. Vick was free to shoot the very short jumper and considering he shoots a high percentage from the FT, he should have gone 80% from where he shot and he did not. If he is hitting 80% from there, the defense would have pulled in freeing the 3-point shot, but his inconsistency inside gave Washington the chance to play the extended zone.

  • @JayHawkFanToo what am I not correct about? I agree with everything you posted.

  • KU does not play well at the Sprint Center. If you include the Missouri game, these are 3 games in a row that KU shot poorly from the field. Yes, KU has a good record there but most wins are games it should have won anyway.

  • @HawkChamp

    The Self did not adjust part. The right scheme was in place to have Vick score at will and collapse the zone and the players just had a bad, bad night.

  • I kind of argued this after Syracuse. People were criticizing Vick for not shooting from the high post even though it was there all night. I posited, based on my own vast playing experience (stifle laughter) that catching a ball with your back to the basket from that distance and turning and shooting a comfortable shot is not easy. Vick proved me right last night, kind of at least. I wish he’d read my post the other day. Maybe we’d have won.

  • Barney said:

    @nuleafjhawk I actually thought Vick started driving a step to far to where he took a guarded shot instead of the open one. I know he was trying to draw the man out for the lob,but that was defended better by Washington in the second half with rotation. To me if he was going to drive he needed to go all the way to the rim. He still played well but he could have had a huge game.

    Agree 💯 it was the leaning floater he was trying to shoot that was not falling. If he goes straight up with the shot, even if he took 1 dribble in, got to think that falls more than leaning into it. To me, it’s a form thing. He is just not comfortable with his form on that shot. It’s not automatic. That is one thing that I think can be corrected by the end of the season, and Vick will be able to drop 50 from that spot when called upon in future games, if he’s left that open.

  • @wissox Ah yeah, I remember you making that argument after 'cuse, and yeah, that makes sense. So if they don’t step out when he turns as they did not, one dribble and STRAIGHT UP… no lean, and practice practice practice of that shot and correct form. With his elevation he should be able to shoot over guys that don’t step up to it.

  • @approxinfinity

    Vick did not look comfortable with floater. He has the speed and agility to go around the defender for a layup or dunk which he did successfully a few time but he missed too many of the short floaters.

  • @JayHawkFanToo they should have told him to catch it, square up, take a power dribble and shoot. Rinse and repeat. Simple as that.

  • @wissox I could do that in middle school so no it can’t be that hard. If that’s too hard, then there is a problem with player development. I just have a hard time with that one.

  • @approxinfinity This is what I just don’t get. Why not let Svi take that shot a few times? Try to figure out who can be successful there. Maybe even let Mitch give it a go. Relying on a guy to go for 40-50 is not realistic.

    Once you miss a few dare shots (I think I remember Self calling them that a while ago), confidence plummets. Everyone in the arena expects you to make that shot. You know you can, but for some reason it didn’t go.

    If we are going to have a player take 20+ shots. I want that to be Graham or Doke dunking 19 times.

  • @benshawks08 Bingo! I just said the exact same thing on another thread. I wanted to see Svi at the high post when Vick clearly wasn’t comfortable.

  • @benshawks08 yep keep alternating who is at the high post. Makes sense to all of us.

  • He did try Garrett there late, but Garrett wasn’t ready.

  • @approxinfinity and in the first half. Garrett was not the one to make things happen there. Not a good plan.

  • @benshawks08

    If Vick was hitting the floater consistently, the zone would have been pulled in freeing the long range shooters and Vick does not get 50. If they don’t adjust and Vick gets 50 KU wins.

  • @JayHawkFanToo Yeah but Vick did make them pay. Several times in a row even. They refused to adjust. They gambled that eventually a role player would crack under the pressure of having to be the only guy to score for the whole game. He did. Vick is getting better and better, but he isn’t and has never been our “go-to” guy. It’s STRESSFUL to have 15,000 people to expect you to score EVERY time your team gets the ball. Even worse, when it’s on short shots most joe schmo pick up players make on the reg (though obviously not over 6’11’’ height!).

    Another factor I’m not sure I’ve seen mentioned much in this discussion is how boring it is. KU did the “right” thing and got “good” looks all game. But it was the same. Every time. Basketball is supposed to be fun. And our team flies when it’s having fun. Washington refused to let anyone have any fun on offense. You get an 8 foot jumper you can make in your sleep from the same spot over and over and over and over and over and over again.

    Oh yeah and our defense sucked.

  • Post game interview, they said they were giving up Vicks shot all day. No 3’s. They got hot shooting. Baby Doke needs to grow up quickly!

  • HawkChamp said:

    @wissox I could do that in middle school so no it can’t be that hard. If that’s too hard, then there is a problem with player development. I just have a hard time with that one.

    Believe me I’m no expert. But in middle school you were weaker I presume. For me, shooting that requires strength, ie from distance takes more strength. A ten footer for a junior higher takes some strength, but for an adult it is hard to shoot because it requires a lot of touch and for whatever reason it’s not a comfortable shooting distance for people. I don’t know why except for my feeble explanation, but it just is.

    Sure, these guys should be comfortable shooting from any distance, but if you look at shot charts of most ‘normal’ games, you’re not going to see a whole bunch of 8-10 footers.

  • @wissox of course I am bigger and stronger, but to me that is no excuse for not being able to hit a ten foot jumper with 60 or 70% accuracy. Time in the gym is the remedy for inaccuracy.

  • Playing in the middle of that zone is a tough ask for Vick. As a guard, he’s used to facing the basket, not playing with his back to it. As a result, he has to really read through the defense when he’s making decisions in the middle. He’s just not used to being in that spot on the floor with his back to the basket. As a guard, when you are there with your back to the basket, you usually dribble out and re-set.

    That’s why Preston would make such a big difference there. He knows how to play with his back to the basket, so catching in the high post, he is used to the different looks the defense gives there. He also has the ability to turn and keep the ball high without risking TOs, while Vick getting the ball high doesn’t protect it from the bigger players guarding the basket.

    Preston can hit that little jumper, put the ball on the floor, kick it out or go big to big with Doke because those are all roles he’s used to. Vick plays that high spot like a guard, which is fine, but changes how he wants to attack (i.e., drive and kick, shoot floaters, throw lobs, etc.). Syracuse tried to sit back and do the same thing, but KU shot too well. Last night, they didn’t, so Washington was able to sit back more. Preston makes that impossible because he probably tosses up something like a 35 and 15 against a defense like that (not saying Vick’s 28/5/7 is anything to sneeze at, but putting Vick out on the perimeter as an option to pass to changes the dynamic, too).

  • @HawkChamp So stats sometimes can help us. Vick did make 12 baskets, all of which were in the lane. He took 4 shots outside of the lane, 19 inside, so 12 of 19 in the lane. About 63%.

    Here’s the link with the shot charts. http://gamezone.stats.com/gz/basketball/cbk/1943705

    You can search other games as well, and the interesting thing to me, including looking at the Syracuse game is the in the lane 10-15 footer is a pretty rare shot in college basketball.

  • @wissox

    You don’t see a lot of short shots because the trend is to hit the 3 or dunk. The short jumper is a very good option by it does not have the pizazz of the others so it is becoming a lost art.

  • The defense we saw last night and against Syracuse is going to be the wave of the future in college basketball. Most guards today only have a layup and a three point shot. Good true big men leave for the NBA quickly. So aside from an elite big man freshman which only a few teams get, teams are left with average post players and guards with no mid range game. Teams are going to give that soft spot until you can prove you can hit it or execute a screen and reverse for the three.

    College basketball players/coaches are starting to buy into “midrange shot is bad statistically” so they are not using it enough. People are forgetting that if you dont have the ability at all three levels you are easier to defend.

    Mason last year was deadly because he had ability at all three levels. He could shoot the three, finish at the rim, and hit that 12-15 shot OFF THE DRIBBLE and keep the defender guessing. He could change speeds and then execute at one of the levels.

  • @wissox Agreed. - - people are complaining Vick didn’t make Washington pay enough for being in the lane. - like you posted - he made 12-19 shots - -all 12 shots made were inside the lane - -equals 24 points, that’s pretty good production inside the lane. Wouldn’t matter what type of Defense they ran - that’s really good production from that area - and when they challenged in the beginning of the game - -he did exactly what should of been done he dropped off to Doke for the flush right out of the gate.

    Vick was not the reason we lost this game. - We need to look on THE OTHER end of the floor dealing with our or our lack of defensive effort - there is more the reason why we lost the game. - Are lack of getting 2nd chance opportunities on our offensive end - -them GETTING multiple 2nd chance opportunities - we just got out hustled - -flat out played in every concept of the game last night. - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

  • Preson…Preston…calling Billy Preston. Please report eligible to the practice facility immediately!

  • HawkChamp said:

    @wissox of course I am bigger and stronger, but to me that is no excuse for not being able to hit a ten foot jumper with 60 or 70% accuracy. Time in the gym is the remedy for inaccuracy.

    Well guess your not talking about La Gerald then when you say not being able to hit the jumper in the lane. - -12-19 in the lane you said no excuse for not being able to hit that at 60-70 % - well looks like this equates out to right about 63% - even a tad bit higher so he meets your expectations there. - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

  • @jayballer54

    Washington basically told KU we will let you have all the points you can get in the paint but nothing from the outside. 28 points from the paint will not do it when nothing else is going.

  • JayHawkFanToo said:


    Washington basically told KU we will let you have all the points you can get in the paint but nothing from the outside. 28 points from the paint will not do it when nothing else is going.

    Agreed I just feel LaGerald did his part. The others didn’t. when they DID get the opportunity - -they did nothing, they stood they look lost, where was the leader? - the take charge guy? The guy that wants the ball in these types of situations? - -28 from one player is plenty, the others have to take responsibility and step up, he kicked the ball out enough but they did nothing with it AFTER he made the pas that was needed. - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

  • @jayballer54

    I think you missed the gist of my post.

  • JayHawkFanToo said:


    I think you missed the gist of my post.

    probably - - -I’m old lol - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

  • @JayHawkFanToo I went back and re-read your post - - it sunk in FINALLY lol - -told you I’m old - -I see what you were saying now . ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY

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