When the Hurtin's Done, Give Us a Nike 5-star at the 5
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Nice post.
The match up zone and Oregon sending 3-4 back immediately on missed shots to prevent transition run-outs changed everything Kansas wanted to do. Even with just 1-2 players staying back for the rebound it seemed like the ball just bounced their way more often, than not. Similar to the last two ridiculous 3 pt shots before the end of the first half. Still Kansas did everything they did to fight back into it, and got into it. That last rebound tipped away from each other and then giving up the 3 sealed it and that was at 2:30 left with plenty of time to come back had they secured the rebound, scored a 2 and got it within 4 at that point.
Many of the principles of the MUZ were exact remedies for KU’s strength.
So the part that I have had a little trouble with the last day is on Friday Self alluded he had not done much to prepare them to play against the MUZ. I know little could have been implemented in a day or two. And I understand the philosophy you just do you and worry about what got you there and don’t try changing what you do. But the fact remains that this team was not prepared to face a MUZ defense and had no solutions prepared for it. Driving and kicking was one thing they did try but because Bell owned the paint and could handle it on his own, it didn’t really collapse the wings and created the open shots we normally see.
Even all that said–the team had their shots and just couldn’t make 'em. Sad way to go home.
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By a 5 star OAD 5 you mean 6’7’’ Jordan Bell that was ranked between 50-75 and is currently a JR? Because that’s what Oregon trotted out there and kicked KU’s butt with.
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@BShark 6-9 but still not a OAD
HAPPENS to be a freak of nature with his blocking abilities
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I’ve seen anywhere from 6’7’’ to 6’9’’. Truth probably lies somewhere in between. But yeah he is a good player, but not close to a OAD type.
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Who would you rather have had?
Jordan Bell or Landen?
Jordan Bell or Bragg?
Jordan Bell or Coleby?
Those were the choices.
I’m saying the recruiting is so asymmetric at KU that Self cannot EVEN sign and develop a Jordan Bell, much less a 5-star, or an OAD 5.
Here is the blunt truth about KU recruiting.
In terms of recruited talent, we started a high mid major roster supplemented with an OAD, a troubled 5-star shooting guard backup (Vick) and a foreign project (two if you add Doke.).
This KU team is frankly a hybrid of a good mid major with an OAD.
Except for Josh and Vick, you are looking at a mid major not unlike Self’s best Tulsa team that made it to an EE.
Compare the rosters of the FF teams with this KU team, and outside Josh, who on KU would for sure be starting for UNC, Oregon, USC and Gonzaga.
Frank and Devonte have played superbly and exceeded everyone’s expectations, but…
Dorsey and Brooks looked more like top D1 major guard bodies and NBA prospects to me than Frank and Devonte. And head to head they played like it. And as great of shooters as Frank and Devonte have been, they have never shown the kind of range Dorsey shows most games.
And which of those four teams has less depth and less inside game than KU?
Self did an awesome coaching job this season and post season.
,
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@jaybate-1.0 Isn’t that the same as Gonzagas roster? Mid major recruits. One 6 star recruit in a 7ft freshman.
What does South Carolina have in regards to 5 star recruits?
Does Oregon have guys that came out of HS as 5 stars?
Ok ok UNC has some 5 stars on their team.
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Exactly. KU was was not even as talented as these teams. All these teams have inside games AND more depth than KU.
My guess is that as recruits, Frank, Devonte, and Landon were ranked significantly lower than their counterparts on the four Final Four teams.
But even if they weren’t, KU WASNT DECISIVELY MORE TALENTED THAN ANY FINAL FOUR TEAM, AND IT MOST LIKELY WAS SHARPLY WEAKER AT POST AND IN BENCH THAN THE OTHER FF TEAMS
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Frank, Josh and Devonte played fabulously well this season, but not even Josh held MUA on his off night.
To win rings, sooner or later you have to win one on your worst night.
That is when your level of physical talent and depth have to carry you.
KU didn’t have enough.
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@jaybate-1.0 The lack of bench was disheartening to me. It seemed like it was 7 guys to play, one injured guy post surgery, another guy healing and getting into game shape and then the other half of the bench was walk ons that are there for practice.
As a former coach it is just important to have guys not only that can run the scout team but mimic the ability to a point of the opposing team as well. KU didn’t have that unless perhaps past players were coming in to practice against the starting 5.
I don’t see college basketball staying with a true 5 anymore. But going to tall and athletic, such as Oregon, Louisville and UNC for a few. Versitle players playing multiple positions. Almost like what Josh Jackson could do. Ball handler, driver, post up, shooter.
Heart can go along way, look at Frank Mason. His heart made him a great player. He wasn’t the most athletic guy on the court, he wasn’t the purest of shooters. But there were times he was the best player on the court for either team playing. Why was that? Heart. Hard work. Determination. Bescuase he had heart.
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You are looking at it through the lens of how it turned out. Self signed Cliff, Diallo and Bragg. All big time HS post prospects at the time of their signing. Diallo and Bragg had UK offers.
Guards I would not disagree. Outside of Josh the staff lucked into Svi, while Mason and Graham were post grads that Self developed. Now the only guard signed in this class is Garrett, whose HS coach is friends with Self. We need to see things turn around for the 18 class. Gotta close Grimes (with the help of Adidas perhaps?).
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I wouldn’t trade Frank, or Devonte for any true D1 Major 5 star types. I loved their games.
But they needed one mor backup than just Vick and they needed a 5 star 5, whatever type of 5 star five plays 5 now.
Frank is a once in a generation come from no where to stardom guy. He is special. He is everything college ball is about.
I will never forget his great shooting, his D, his unreal rebounding, and that photo of him “facing up” that big lug.
Frank is the Ernie Banks of KU Basketball and if you know of Ernie you know that is the highest praise!!!
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Been through this before. Each of those supposed “exceptions” had the baggage coming in that they showed when they got here. It was just concealed from fans. Self would never have gotten them without the baggage. So they really weren’t exceptions at all. Self can get “those” kinds of 5 stars and OADs. What he can’t sign are the OADs and 5-stars at 1 and 5 without the baggage that can come in and start and play the way Josh has. Good lord, Coach K and Roy and Cal sign them every season.
You have to stop living in denial about the recruiting regime in D1. It is what it is. KU needs to find a way to get around this impasse, not live with it and blame Self.
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@jaybate-1.0 said:
Frank is the Ernie Banks of KU Basketball and if you know of Ernie you know that is the highest praise!!!
Yes. Yes it is.
You could see how bad Frank wanted it the other night. How often in all the games he played at KU did you see him get after another player verbally on the court? He did it with Svi, he did it with Josh too against Oregon, perhaps a few other teammates got it too that the camera didn’t catch.
The other thing I love about Frank was win or lose, great game for him or whatever. He always gave credit to his teammates and coaches. He never set blame to anyone. In a loss he gave credit to the other team and coaches.
He was modest beyond belief. And a true leader. I hope someday he’s on a sideline coaching young boys into becoming young men the right way.
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@Blown said:
HAPPENS to be a freak of nature with his blocking abilities
What’s even more freaky is he somehow picked up just a single foul all night while trying to block everything in sight.
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I hope so too. But I’ve given up guessing who has the gift for coaching at a young age. Only a few like Larry Brown seem to have that uncanny insight. But among those I have seen lately, I sure wish it for Frank. He could help a lot of kids.
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An excellent point!
I have tried to lay off complaining about the refs, because it seems increasingly apparent it’s been “problematic” the last few years.
But your point DEFINITELY deserves mentioning.
Thanks.
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@tis4tim I didn’t feel like the refs missed fouls on Bell.
I do think the second foul against JJ was as BS of a call as you could find. To have Bigs constantly body to body in the paint with no calls and all of the hand checking going on all tournament to see that incidental and inadvertent contact by Josh on his arm was a complete farce.
It did appear to me that the refs missed a lot of traveling violations.
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@jaybate-1.0 Agree. At any level he good do great things.
I saw thisbthe other day and I met Geno mid 90s he’s an amazing guy and what he is saying here is so so true.
https://mobile.twitter.com/justinebward/status/845374613634928641
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@jaybate-1.0 I would agree about needing a good post player, now. LL was decent but was not athletic compared to most the guys he faced. We need a guy like Bragg that actually has their head outta the a$$ and plays.
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That was really weird that Bragg did not play a minute vs Oregon. Anyone have a clue what was going on there?
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@jaybate-1.0 none, I think if his 17 footer was falling he would’ve been useful. Coleby struggled like LL with just not being athletic enough against Oregon.
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That was the hope before the season.
Man would a 5 that could knock down 17 footer have pulled Bell away from the iron!
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@FarNrthJHwk yes Oregon has 5 star players. - - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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Dorsey maybe. The rest are 4 star types. Altman is a good coach.
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@BShark ya, that’s the one I was talking about he is one - - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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A 5 star in his second year. Been awhile since KU had that.
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@jaybate-1.0 and @Blown
I’m not blaming refs for our loss, so please don’t take it that way. 35% shooting and 20% from behind the arc will get you beat pretty handily every time by whoever the opponent happens to be.
I just find it interesting that in a game where only 26 total fouls are called, a guy who had 8 blocks, challenged many more shots, and was very active defensively comes away with only one whistle all night. (Bell was the only starter for both teams with fewer than 2 fouls, BTW).
Josh, meanwhile, gets two fouls in the first 2-minutes-plus of the game, the second of which came after a missed (and rather blatant) travelling violation. And he is the only player on either team to end the game with 4 fouls. Nobody else had more than 3.
Take from that what you will.
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@tis4tim josh’s 2 fouls started the tightening-jmo. Tcu game part 2. Tait said before the game the team was loose, like they had been most of the year. I heard what frank said.
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@BShark said:
Altman is a good coach.
I can’t speak objectively as to whether or not that is correct. I can, however quote Clark Griswold as to how I feel about Altman:
“…cheap, lying, no-good, rotten, four-flushing, low-life, snake-licking, dirt-eating, inbred, overstuffed, ignorant, blood-sucking, dog-kissing, brainless, d##kless, hopeless, heartless, fat-ass, bug-eyed, stiff-legged, spotty-lipped, worm-headed sack of monkey s##t he is!”
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@Crimsonorblue22 said:
josh’s 2 fouls started the tightening-jmo. Tcu game part 2. Tait said before the game the team was loose, like they had been most of the year. I heard what frank said.
I heard Tait reported as such and I truly believe that the team was loose prior to tip. But I also think the psyche of the team did change after that second quick whistle on Josh.
After Josh picked up his second I felt it would be best to let him sit until half, especially since Vick did an admirable job filling in. If memory serves, we were only down a point at the 8-minute mark when Self put Josh back in. I’m no coach nor a genius basketball strategist by any stretch, but I felt that keeping Josh out until half, especially if we kept the game a one or two possession affair, would give him a clean slate mentally for the second half and we would have a totally fresh-legged Josh out there wreaking havoc. Putting him back in, I felt, made him worry too much about picking up a third before half. So, instead of playing with a free mind he was thinking too much about not fouling, rendering him less effective.
It’s all water under the bridge now, but you look at the box score and see 13 fouls called on each team and the result appears “fair”. But those two quickies on Josh undeniably changed the game and the mindset of our guys. That said, we still had our chances and many opportunities to take the game, but it didn’t happen. And so it goes.
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Unfortunately I dont see any 5 star centers on KU’s horizon.
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Why would they be that interested after Cliff/Diallo/Bragg? And I know Bragg isn’t a center. I hope Doke plays well next year.
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@BShark The players or the coaches?
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The handlers of the players. Probably zero chance KU ever lands another player from that shady basketball academy Cheick went to (if it’s still around). Stuff like that unfortunately sticks with a coach. For us as fans it is easy to look into why things happened the way they did but in recruiting perception is often reality. Hell Selby still gets brought up as we found out this year. Ridiculous really.
Hopefully recruiting picks up, a lot of good local ties in 19.
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Exactly. Those blaming Self, or blaming KU players performances, are just venting and using them as excuses.
Emotional, unscientific minds and those with agendas resist reasoned forensic analysis with a passion, unless it confirms their biases; that’s why I sometimes wait a day or two to clarify and respond.
I made a living for a lot of years marshaling logic and riding facts and weeding out incompetent adversarial use of fact and occasional intentional misrepresentation with facts.
It’s kind of fun, because working with logic and facts and probabilities is sooooooo much easier than polishing turds.
Everytime you do it, you get better and it gets clearer. And since I am never wed to any hypothesis, I am always refining any time new evidence or logic manifests!
Yeeeeeeeee hawwwwww! Another great season survived and savored!!!
The older I get the sweeter each one is!
Polishing truth gets brighter
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@jaybate-1.0 maybe it’s been asked, and I ask this out of ignorance, but how do Nike schools get the better talent? What’s the process?
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I’m not blaming them either, but I think it’s interesting too.
But after the apparent Wisconsin-Duke refereeing and some other examples, I also can’t help but wonder if the refereeing would have gotten even more interesting in a closer game.
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I’m not ready to give up on Bragg.
Otherwise, we shouldn’t want anymore of what might be called 5-star asterisks, if we can avoid having to sign them for numbers, as was the case in the past.
Non asterisk 5-stars is the mission.
Our on asterisk guys have blossomed at KU and done well in the NBA, thank you very much.
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@chriz Nike AAU rep “Hey stud 14 year old kid. Would you like to come to an awesome camp and play in front of college coaches? You get to leave with a cool new jersey and a pair of brand new shoes for participating. Also, we would like to sponsor your AAU team or put you on a new AAU team with other studs. You and your family will get to travel all over the country for free and have a new pair of Nike’s every 3 months. Now, I’m not telling you that you have to go to a Nike school, but if you do and you make it pro it is much more likely that you will get a Nike endorsement deal because we like to take care of people loyal to us.”
14 year old stud “I’m taking my talents to Insert Nike School.”
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@chriz It is also a huge selling point for KU. It is why we land studs. If one of our players gets drafted it is almost a 100% guarantee that Adidas signs them to an endorsement deal. T-Rob is like the only exception. He signed with Nike.
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We will see what happens. I’d love for Bragg to succeed at KU though.
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First, I am just a fan and can only speculate on what I’ve read and on appearances.
That said…
No apparent conspiracies involved IMHO.
Most of the power summer game teams, where most of the Top 100 recruits reputedly play are reputedly Nike sponsored. Players reputedly build informal relationships with Nike and related agents over a period of years in high school.
Nike reputedly holds the lion’s share of D1 college and college coaching contracts, also.
It’s just apparently informal networking and a numbers game.
Nothing more reputedly.
But it appears to adversely impact KU recruiting at certain positions and it’s depth.
Others want to impute conspiracies that just aren’t apparently there.
Conspiracy theory is for suckers.
Narratives are for suckers.
The agent end of things is less transparent and so inconclusive so far in Influence.
Hope that helps.
Whatever, IMHO, forget about ANY illegalities.
Rock Chalk!!!
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Yes we will see what happens. A DNP was some kind of message.
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@Kcmatt7 then I guess my next question is, what’s the advantage of Nike over Adidas? And how is that sold (from each camp) to the kid?
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@jaybate-1.0 surely Bill has this all figured out as well right? Why doesn’t he switch to Nike if there’s such an advantage?
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Spoke volumes.
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Makes one wonder if Bragg violated curfew, set his mattress on fire at the Westin, or gave Bill the side-eye before Saturday’s game. Coach took pains to compliment Bragg after the Thursday night win when reporters were trying to focus on Coleby. Maybe he just felt Bragg was too soft for the likes of Bell that given day.
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@chriz Well essentially it just comes down to numbers and money. Nike sponsors more teams and has better connections to both Colleges, NBA Scouts and Agents. For every 1 Adidas AAU player there are 10 Nike AAU players. So, Nike is going to have more top line recruits just based on the odds.
There is a lot more to it, but that is the gist.
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First, as far as I know, if the school is brand X, then it’s coach is usually brand X. Someone correct me if I’m wrong. So: KU and Bill perhaps got their best offers from adidas. From what I can recall coaches haven’t broken ranks with their employers.
Bill supposedly harvests around $10M per year from Ball related income. Note: I believe this to be questionable and speculative, but I’ll use it for the sake of explaining some basic rough ideas.
Bill’s base salary is reputedly a meager $5M/yr.
Let’s pretend the other reputed $5M/yr apparently comes from OTHER BASKETBALL RELATED INCOME on the line items. There are reputedly several sources of other basketball related income, but the adidas line is reputedly: a.) significant; and b.) somehow informally linked to the university shoe contract MONEY, which is a big enough AMOUNT to fund the nonrevenue sports with out making the Chancellor beg more appropriations money from (and incur more political debts to ) legislators.
These linkages, plus the significant length of contracts makes jumping brands no small task.
Without putting too fine a point on it, apparently some universities are sometimes willing to take the biggest money shoe contract, even if it means less access to top 100 players, because of informal drivers shaping recruiting with this or that brand’s access and relations to players.
Agents reputedly complicate things. For example, players can’t have agents, but HC’s can have agents. Therefore, a coach’s agent for endorsement deals can hang around the players indirectly and informally building relationships. Some agents reputedly have more influence than others.
And agents can have incentivized relationships with agent runners and summer game coaches.
And then there are the relationships of shoe brands and agents with pro ball and the advertisers at the college and pro levels.
And then there are the intermittent dog fights among shoe brands trying to find stable, sustainable market volumes within their producer oligopoly. The EU goes into deep enduring recession. Adidas loses big EU sales. It tries to make up the loss by taking a larger market share from Nike. Nike counter moves.
Recruiting can thus become very complicated.
