This is getting tiring.
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You may be happy with Final Four appearances, but at the end of the day, people only remember who won the national championship. And how many has Cal won so far at UK? Had Self made it past 1 more round but always got stuck at the Final Four, would you be ok with Self as coach then?
I"m never satisfied with the tournament results unless KU wins the National Championship, but I also realize how hard statistically it is to win 6 games in a row and when you have 64 teams trying to do it, your odds aren’t too great.
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@KUSTEVE said:
Bill’s approach to Elite 8 games will change, because Bill Self is a winner. Bill has shown he is adjustable, and he will adjust. The Dux were prepared for us from the opening tip. It took us about 30 minutes to finally figure out how to beat the matchup zone, and then we misfired on a ton of open looks. It was like we were trying to make up a 10 point deficit with every shot. This is where a real x and o guy can develop a plan to defeat our opponents. I thought our guys looked lost trying to figure out how to beat that team- they were more ready for us than we were for them.
Did you really think the roster this year was solid enough for a final four? Do you really think its possible to rely on a 5’ 10 guard to carry you to a title with NOTHING in the post?
We had a 6’9 center who cant jump higher than 6 inches. The first “big” off the bench looked like a 35&older player all year! This team was only going as far as its outside shot would take it. We went cold and the season ended.
I didn’t see any “Out coaching”.
The only thing I saw that was troubling was the lack of execution on out of bounds plays. That is usually a staple of Kansas and we had to throw it past half court on almost every out of bounds plays under our basket.
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@BigBad A lack of a post presence did not cause rebounds to go off KU and into Oregons hands. It did not cause DG to air ball a shot right in front of the basket. Having a post presence definitely would’ve helped but you make it sound like they had no chance at all in winning last night. Down 6 Brooks bricks a 3 and actually securing the rebound and scoring on the next possession and then what all the sudden its a 1 possession game? Instead, JJ blocks the rebound from FM, and Brooks promptly swishes a 3. I saw that coming. That was the end right there.
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@Eric-san All those coaches I listed, they all have at least 1 title (same as Self), but ALL of them have far more Final Four appearances than Self. Calipari’s 6 is the fewest among all of those other coaches. That’s 4 more than Self and he does have a title as well.
You may want titles, but guess what? You have to get to the Final Four to have that shot and tge reality is Self has sucked in the Elite 8 with his 2-7 record.
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Not saying no chance of winning. But if we went cold from outside our odds go really down because we cant throw it inside and get a couple of needed buckets.
Did you see how easy Lucas was getting the ball early? Oregon knew that the best defense was to crowd our guards and concede Lucas. If our guards blew by a ton they had Bell to cover things.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 I’m not arguing that Self has an Elite8 monkey, but you still have to win in the Final 4, and you still have to win the National Championship. So Cal has been to the Final 4 what 6 times? And how many times has he won the Championship? Once? You really think 1-6 in the Final 4 is better than 2-7 in the E8?
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@Eric-san And how about Izzo?
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Cal is better than 1 and 6 in the Final Four
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@Blown I’m sure his record for the Final 4 is better than 1-6 but out of 6 Final 4 appearances, he only has 1 title does he not?
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There are realistically two coaches you would hire over Self–Coack K & Coach Cal
Both of those come with their baggage, too.
Self is in the top 5 of all active coaches in the country.
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@Eric-san yes 1-6 in the final four is better than 2-7 in the E8 because a final four is better. If we had had a few more final fours I’d feel better about us. That why no one talks about coach Ks 5 first weekend exits as a higher seed since 07 because he gets to the final four and has won 2 titles in that span. We have to win more titles to get to the dook level.
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@Eric-san said:
You really think 1-6 in the Final 4 is better than 2-7 in the E8?
What you said was he was 1 for 6 in the final four. I said he was not.
It looks like you meant to say he was 1 for 3 in the championship game.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 said:
reality is Self has sucked in the Elite 8 with his 2-7 record
Have you ever thought that the record, and the high seedings, might reflect Self’s ability to take good teams higher than they might have deserved, rather than underachieving once there?
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@Eric-san Yes, 1-5 in the Final Four is absolutely better than 2-7 in the Elite 8. That’s 4 more opportunities than Self has had to win a title.
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@mayjay do you think that VCU, UCLA, GT, Nova and Oregon were all better teams than us? I definitely don’t.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 Isn’t every loss in the tourney an opportunity lost at winning the title? Does it REALLY matter if you lose in the E8 or F4?
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@kjayhawks Well thats why you play the game is it not? Why play at all if the better team should always win.
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Yes Final Fours are an important bench mark. I think they do matter more than EE. It’s another entire week of having your brand out there.
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I agree with @Texas-Hawk-10 Self sucks in the elite 8. It’s not even a debate. He’s had the better team most the time and lost. Now still love Self but it’s very very frustrating to lose so many times at the same point.
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@BShark That’s where we will agree to disagree. I honestly don’t care if KU gets bounced in the e8 or F4, if it means they didn’t win the national championship.
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Cal vs Self is tough. If Cal takes ANOTHER title this year then really what can you say…
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@BShark I will take back everything I said in this thread, if Cal ends up winning the big one this year.
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@Eric-san I agree, that’s why it’s march madness. But the better team usually goes better than 2-5 like we are in that round.
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Fair enough. I think we have enough evidence to say it’s more than coincidence with Self and the EE at this point. But I mean, Self gets to the EE a LOT, so there is that.
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@mayjay So let’s look at Self’s Elite 8 teams that lost at KU. 2004, KU was a 4 seed and lost a 3 seed Georgia Tech, not an issue. 2007, 1 seed KU lost to 2 seed UCLA, not much shame there because UCLA was a top 5 team. 2011, KU lost VCU, anybody who claims that isn’t embarrassing is an idiot. 2016, 1 seed KU lost to 2 seed Nova and played like crap on offense. No reason KU should’ve lost that one. Last night, 1 seed KU lost to 3 seed Oregon because Self refused to make any and tell his guards to drive the damn ball. He chose to die by the 3 instead.
Self has flat out sucked in the Elite 8. 2004 is the only year I can think of that KU has reached 70 points in the Elite 8 under Self. Self butt puckers up so tight that you couldn’t even fit a paper clip in there. He’s been good in every other round, but for whatever reason, Self just sucks in the Elite 8.
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It’s really only the E8 game for whatever reason. Self has as good of record as anyone in the FF and the NC game. And better than most thus far. And he is the guy that only gets better from here. I believe that. He knows it’s a problem. Any other time he knows something needs adjusted or tweaked he does that. He will do this too. His best tournament runs are yet to come. We’re just spoiled and impatient. And we should be. It’s KU
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Three point percentage in the losses I could find. GT isn’t showing status.
Consistent theme in the EE losses.
3pt %
Oregon 20
Nova 27
UCLA 50
VCU 9
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@Eric-san Yes, it matters. Would you rather have Self’s or Izzo’s resume?
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Lowest points KU scored ALL SEASON last night.
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I would take Self over Izzo.
Self is 8 years younger.
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Besides, if Izzy was our coach ya’ll would be doing the same damn thing with him…
“Seven final fours and 1 championship isn’t enough–he just can’t get over the hump”
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@Texas-Hawk-10 Are we talking about the Izzo that hasn’t won a title since 2000? 7 final fours in 18 years? Once again, Final Fours are great, if it leads to a National Championship. I’ll take my chances with Self.
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Anyone that thinks recruiting hits rough patches for KU now would LOSE THEIR MIND with Izzo.
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@BShark And only 59 points last year in the EE. That is the problem. We go from averaging over 90 down to scoring 60. The Dux D is good, but not that good. We just looked flat all night and it only takes one flat game to send you home.
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Agree bu it does sometimes feel like Duke, UK, and UNC to some extent get their choices and then the rest are fighting for scraps.
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I remember in 2003 when Roy missed all those free throws. That was annoying, too.
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@BigBad thats because they do. But Josh Jackson and Wiggins & the like are pretty decent scraps. We just don’t get 2-3 of them every year. Our lack of a skilled scorer inside last night was a huge hole. You can blame that on Braggs lack of development.
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Duke always closes their leans it seems. Team USA thing helps a lot and K is a “living legend”. Lately UK misses a fair bit, if you look at the final classes for them they aren’t bad because they need a ton of guys every year but 2015 in particular UK missed on a lot of their first choices. Self seems to have good and bad spurts in recruiting. Diallo and now Bragg struggling has hurt a lot. Now with Bragg it’s very clear that he just isn’t as good as his HS hype, but it still hurts in recruiting. Fortunately Josh was fantastic this year and I hope Preston and Doke tear it up next year. We have seen what having unathletic bigs looks like and it’s not pretty.
@Big-Clyde52 said:
@BShark And only 59 points last year in the EE. That is the problem. We go from averaging over 90 down to scoring 60. The Dux D is good, but not that good. We just looked flat all night and it only takes one flat game to send you home.
Agree. It’s a very negative trend and denying it at this point seems crazy. For whatever reason, Self’s teams play tight in EE games. Even in the wins.
@Blown said:
I remember in 2003 when Roy missed all those free throws. That was annoying, too.
Not the same thing we are talking about now 7 games for Self at KU where the team has played tight. Players do pick up on things from their coach. There are still very few coaches I would trade Self for though.
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I was so, so wrong about Bragg.
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@BShark How can you tell if coach was tight or not? Is it simply a direct correlation you draw between poor shooting?
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Self has openly commented about how hard elite eight games are. And the players have been tight you could really say in every EE game. In 2012 KU bullied a UNC team missing their PG, in 2008 they escaped Davidson in an otherwise great tournament that ended fantastically.
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@Eric-san So Izzo has the same number of titles as Self and 4 times the Final Four appearances which means four times better chances to win a title.
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@Blown Self reverted to form last night. Stopped subbing and quit making adjustments in the second half. Vick played reasonably well in the first half and actually scored. Why wasn’t he playing over Graham in the 2nd half who couldn’t hit water if he fell out of a boat last night? Why wasn’t he telling Mason, Jackson, amd Graham to drive the ball and get to FT line since the 3’s weren’t falling?
Self’s butt was than the security at Ft. Knox last night just like it has been in every Elite 8 game.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 Yea Izzo had 4 more chances at the title, but does chances equal winning? He hasn’t won a title in those 4 trips anyway, so does it really matter that Izzo made it to the Final 4?
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Everyone needs a day to process the loss. Nothing productive ever comes from bagging on things when the loss is so fresh. I’m just as guilty of it as the next person on here.
It sucks we lost especially how we played to get to this point. And the guys just didn’t respond how we hoped or wanted them too.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 I agree on the driving. I said at about the 6-7 minute mark that they needed to start driving every play. I don’t know why they didn’t other than the fact that Bell completely owned the paint blocked everything in sight without even getting 2 fouls called on him all game. 8 blocks. That’s big time.
As far as everything else goes: there is no explanation for the missed shots. Many were wide open looks and we just bricked them.
Part of the tightness could be attributed to 4 of the five starters experiencing last years elite 8 loss.
A big ‘what if’ I will always wonder is how much losing Josh 2 minutes into the game impacted the overall mentality. That second foul was bullsh**
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It’s all about the ride to the end, and no other school or team has a better ride during the season than KU does on a regular basis. It is just as important to enjoy the whole season as a fan, as opposed to the last 3 weeks of a single round elimination tournament, where the best team doesn’t always win.
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Matt Tait said we were loose as always in warmups. Perhaps we all tightened up when josh got his 2nd foul w/17 plus left? Completely changed the game. I think we were only 1 down when he came back in which speaks well for Vick. But josh was not the same! Oregon was our perfect storm no matter which game it was. Completely exposed our loss of Doke. Dg had an off pm. Oregon looked really good.
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@BeddieKU23 said:
Everyone needs a day to process the loss. Nothing productive ever comes from bagging on things when the loss is so fresh. I’m just as guilty of it as the next person on here.
It sucks we lost especially how we played to get to this point. And the guys just didn’t respond how we hoped or wanted them too.
Well said. This board has been really great in comparison to the drivel on 247 and phog though.
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@Crimsonorblue22 Losing JJ that early probably reminded the team of the TCU game and started panicking. As pressure started building, emotions started taking over.
