Will Shaka Set KU Up for WVU?
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Thxs for the assist. Sounds good.
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Looks like there’s an edge sharpening!
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@jaybate-1.0 Agreed. Maybe Doke should get some steel wrapped around the plaster of Paris. You never know when a rumble will break out.
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@JayHawkFanToo said:
fixing games by making calls that change the score.
Thanks. I knew that refs and gamblers and players fixed games… But the interesting angle is the coaches. If I understand you correctly, you can’t recall any coaches getting investigated by DOJ for fixing games. Neither do I. Must have been some in over a century.
I wonder if head coaches have managed fixing the way they have managed recruiting violations? In recruiting its reputedly an unwritten rule that the HC maintains plausible deniability by having the assistants and alums do the rule breaking for him; then he says he didn’t know about, and then does a “motion play” to another school.
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Ha! The unfair advantage!!!
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I take it is too difficult for you to believe that coaches just don’t do this, regardless of what you think.
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@jaybate-1.0 i have recently been farting around with Draft Kings daily fantasy basketball, which means I have forced myself to immerse myself into the NBA. It is truly a maze of breakout/lay off for a game type play that bears out much of what you’re talking about. Guys get jacked up for a game, and then take a siesta the next. The worst offending coach that practices this just happens to be Bill’s BFF, Popovich. With Popovich, you never know who gets the minutes on a night by night basis for several of his players. Then he’ll have a few games where he rests his starters for the night. All of them. other than Kawai Leonard, I won’t choose a Spur. I also won’t take a player facing the Spurs. The Spurs are fantasy bb killers.
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“I take it is too difficult for you to believe that coaches just don’t do this, regardless of what you think.” –@JayHawkFanToo
Your taking it this way makes it seem about your difficulty with an apparent phenomenon I noted and your apparent hope that the apparent phenomemon is not real
It’s not so loaded for me, because I don’t see fixing as a likely and sound interpretation. Hence no sense of difficulty for me. FWIW, I’m feeling pretty good despite a mild cold.
I will say that it seems like each point you make raises more questions about possible nefarious head coach conduct in this regard, if one bought your premise,which I remain skeptical about. I just find it hard to believe coaching a low possession game till ten to go and then playing all out to win it the last ten minutes could reasonably be characterized as, and investigated as, fixing.
The issue of fixing is all yours. I have just tried to explore it with you as you saw it, in order to respect you and your POV, even though I find it rather unpersuasive. Some times you take me off in interesting directions, so I try to give you latitude.
Again it never occurred to me that shortening a game to ten minutes, or trying to take it a little easy on an opponent to help you both conserve energy for the next game, could be equated with a legal definition of fixing. It seems like a logical disconnect.
But your steady insistence that it would be fixing makes one ask: well, if it were to qualify, as you say, then that raises the next question of why the apparent phenomenon is apparently rarely, or never investigated by DOJ? Is it because it doesn’t happen, or because it’s a grey area of fixing, or because everyone has agreed not to enforce the law on coaches, or what?
Again, I suspect you are off on this fixing idea, but I’ve done the best I can with it.
And I am hopeful the above clarification helps relieve some of your difficulty.
Rock Chalk!
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That’s an interesting angle to view the issue from–fantasy basketball.
It makes me wonder if there are other aspects of the real game that fantasy basketball might lend similar insight on.
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@jaybate-1.0Fantasy basketball kind of opened my eyes to the grind of an 82 game schedule, and what coaches do to keep their guys on the floor, and keep them motivated. I think at times Bill is resting his starters AS they are playing.The NBA does it all the time. The NBA will have a starter dominate a game for a quarter, and then do almost nothing the next. They are protecting the goods. There are times in every game where Frank and Devonte simply take plays off, sometimes numerous plays off in a row- then they swerve back in, Frank makes two plays in a row, Devonte hits the 3, and then they ease back the idle again. this allows them to accumulate minutes without wearing themselves down. I think the team looks fresher this year. We’re protecting the goods.
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Your are changing the original premise of the discussion. You originally postulated that it could be possible for Texas to take it easy so KU would be fresh for West Virginia and now you are changing it to coaches taking it easy to protect their own players. I don’t believe the first case happens because by its own nature would involve collusion which is not only unethical but illegal. Yes, it would be rare to have an investigation because it really does not happen. The second case is completely different and happens all the time when coaches rest players not only during specific games but also like Popovic did, held the starters the entire game, and was heavily fined by the NBA since it compromises the game and deprives fans from watching the stars they paid to see play.
In short, holding back to benefit your own team is an accepted practice although frowned upon by Vegas since bettors can bet on the total number of points scored and anything that artificially changes that affects betting. Holding back to benefit your opponent does not happen.
This is what I said from the beginning since it was the original premise of your post.
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Fascinating. The NBA is a whole other world. I have often wondered how they managed the grind. When I was a child in the 1960s I recall my father saying the NBA players didnt go hard till the playoffs. It appeared that way sometimes.
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You remain unpersuasive to me on this issue.
And no I don’t believe that I am.
And you may continue to try to persuade me.
My mind remains open.
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Have you read about some reputed new mil-int thread management and psycho-mapping technique and software… They reputedly carry on lengthy purposefully meandering argumentative discourses loaded with impugning assertions and with one playing good cop and one bad all the while the thread discourse is being used as data to psycho-map the target for data and tendencies unrelated to topic. Its a completely unreal, contrived discourse on purpose. It’s supposedly some fallout from memetic engineering research. Forget where I saw it now. Now all who belabor points may be psycho mappers. Wonder how long it will before they start showing up? Apparently because it can be conducted fully automated --two AIs not just one–they can be flooded all over the Internet.
Psycho mapping. It’s fan-tactic!!!
But in the post truth era it is debated whether this software exists, or not.
Others argue that it is a hoax passed off to make everyone think they can do something they can’t.
I think the post truth era could get quite unknowably interesting.
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Is this the equivalent of asymmetric trifectation over the contrails in the Crimean peninsula between the petroshoe corporations, the Vatican and the old world oligopolies while the NCAA infarctates over coaches taking it easy in order to change the outcome of future games?
If it is, I am all for it.
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Howling!!
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You are wrong.
You are changing the subject.
Is it too difficult for you?
That Would be a crime.
No crime definition.
No evidence.
Unrelated example.
Your changing what you said.
Do loop.
Howling!!!
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No, it is a waste of time and bandwidth.
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@jaybate-1.0 I’m certainly a babe in the woods when it comes to the NBA, but I making myself learn. This week, Markieff went off for 50+ points on my team, I got one hell of a game out of Wigs last week, and I pick Embiid everytime he plays, even if he is limited to 28 minutes a game…lol. It’s like being able to have my own personal KU team in the NBA…hehehe…
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You seem a little colicky the last few days. KU is doing pretty well. Is it inauguration related?
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Cool. Glad you’re enjoying it. Keep us posted how it goes.
I wonder if there were an equivalent for USA politics; i.e., fantasy politics?
USE REAL PLAYERS STATS IN SIMULATIONS. You assemble Hillary and Kellyanne Conway and see if that beats Donald Trump and Karl Rove. Switch campaign strategists around and see if you can outperform the pros.
I would think it would get popular in a hurry, if it isn’t already being done.
I’m not joking either.
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@jaybate 1.0: When I was a kid I heard a story on the radio or tv about a phone call between Bear Bryant and the Georgia coach, Wally Butts, the week before their game. This happened somewhere around 1959-61. Apparently, Bryant wanted Butts to throw the game for money. When the story broke, it was reported that Butts had agreed. Butts was fired by Georgia, but Bryant suffered no repercussions from Alabama. I always supposed it was because he was only trying to win.
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Awesome recall!!! I had forgotten Wally Butts and Bryant. I am submitting your name for congressional approval as Secretary of Sports Memory!!!
I never did understand what happened in that situation. Do you recall if DOJ investigated it, as @JayHawkFanToo says they would have? That could be some evidence for him. Still not a basketball coach, but closer than a referee. Though still something quite far beyond the professional curtesy of not throwing a game, but rather just not roughing up and wearing down a colleague’s highly ranked team unnecessarily just before a big game in which both coaches’ team’s would benefit from playing the second of 2 in 3 or 4 with more gas in the tanks and fewer injuries. Right?
Remember @JayHawkFanToo created the whole “fixing” issue completely counterfactually to what I was discussing. Made it up himself. I was assuming NO fix of any kind. He was who wanted to think about fixes and introduced the concept. It’s a technique of thread destabilization, though I believe in his case he genuinely believes professional curtesy would be a crime the DOJ would investigate.
All I was talking about was: The game was to be shortened as appears to happen frequently in coaching strategy, and played closely without a lot of the illegal rough housing and intimidation and cheap shotting that goes on. I assumed a completely legal and sportsmanlike approach all apparently legitimately within the rules, while @JayHawkFanToo went off into a fixing tangent that I shrugged at but indulged him on.
Since I don’t see the appearance of professional curtesy as an illegal conspiracy, and since i am not interested in the fixing of games by coaches, as much as @Jayhawkfantoo appears to be, I suggest you direct this to him. He seems to know a lot about the law of fixing and the criteria for DOJ investigating that is all quite beyond my knowledge.
He could perhaps informatively explain how Bear Bryant asking a coach Butts to throw a game would equate to two D1 basketball coaching colleagues facing 2 games in 3-4 days and with neither gaining much benefit from coaching a bruising high possession game with a lot of hard fouling and cheap shotting and “manning up” deciding simultaneously without conversation between them on the subject to coach a low possession game with out a lot of the rough stuff, so as to leave both teams in the best possible condition for the next opponent.
The crux of it is shortening a game and playing the final ten to win knowing veteran Coach A has the superior highly ranked team and Young Coach B has the inferior team facing a home whistle on the road. Should Coach B pull out all the stops and run his team and Coach A’s team into exhaustion for a remote chance of winning, and probably causing both teams to lose their next games, or should he play it close to the vest, try to steal it at the end, and regardless our outcome live to fight and win more probably in a few days, while simultaneously minimizing the chance of the veteran Coach A electing use his home court advantage and superior team to beat him into the next century for being an unprofessional jerk?
I really haven’t a clue about how @JayHawkFanToo gets into fixing. It appears a complete logical disconnect from what I was writing about. But I try to be a good sport and be patient and not squelch him. He will work through this at some point.
Everything I was writing about was opening, speculation and hypothesis as usual. Just trying to understand the game as it appears.
Rock Chalk! And let’s get ready for Morgantown.
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@jaybate-1.0 The attack on the Borg has the Bilderbergs in a tizzy. It’s a world wide thing.
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@jaybate-1.0 said:
If Shaka were smart, he would keep keep it a 65-55 game with no banging.
The whole premise of this thread is wrong. If Shaka were able to ensure he could keep it to a 10 pt loss by taking it easy, he would be able to try hard and ensure his own team would win.
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Nope.
IMHO Shaka’s only chance was to shorten the game, hang close BUT BEHIND, and win it at the end in a flurry.
He did not have a good enough team to grab a lead and hold it all game, or even half a game and beat KU straight up.
If he had tried that, Self and KU would have beaten and humiliated them by 30, instead of working to conserve energy and avoid risky plays and injury in anticipation of WVU. Put another way, Bragg and Lightfoot would not have combined for 22 minutes of development PT.
Even as it turned out he unnecessarily wasted too much energy with a tweener 60 trips. It got him and his team nothing. But he did appear at least not to piss Self off with his conduct of the game. Self seemed his collegial and respectful self to Shaka in the handshake line.
Self appears to like collegiality and to reach out to fellow coaches when ever they will stop the silly unprofessional I’m gonna knock you out junk. Self practically made Frank Martin’s career by befriending him professionally when everyone was out to hang him for his temper.
Hard and tough when it counts appears part of the code. But coaching in unnecessary ways that harm your colleagues careers and meal tickets seems not.
It appears a fine line to walk sometimes for coaches, but IMHO it’s kind of ridiculous, all on/all off kind of thinking to introduce notions of fixing into collegiality and professional curtesy that at least appears to go on some in the interplay among professional coaches.
But, hey, one board rat’s ridiculous is another’s devout ideologically rigid, unimpeachable, unchallengeable truth.
Right?
Rock Chalk!!!
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@jaybate-1.0 I agree that shortening the game was UT’s best strategy because that’s always the way for inferior teams to veat more talented teams. To Shaka, screwed up by not trying to get Lucas and Bragg into as much foul trouble as possible and turn the game into a FT contest and hope KU’s FT shooting issues return. That was his biggest game plan mistake.
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@KUSTEVE said:
The attack on the Borg has the Bilderbergs in a tizzy. It’s a world wide thing.
This is the wisest most concise thing I have read in awhile regarding the recent state of the world politics.
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You must work for the MSM, way to take my posts out of context to fit your premise. My premise is based on the fact that coaches DO NOT collude with each other to change the score and this is why there are no investigations. If they did collude, as you suggest, it would be called “game fixing” and you bet there would be investigations. It is really that simple. You can twist my words any way you want but it does not change the facts.
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Way to twist my words out of context.
You can twist my words any way you want but it doesn’t change the facts.
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Texas plays slow - 170 something on KenPom in tempo coming into the game. Top 30 D coming into the game as well so it was no surprise the pace of the game was slow and KU had trouble scoring at times in half-court set.
Without a point guard they have no choice but to run sets that take entire possessions. We saw what seemed like every possession running through Cleare or Allen in the high post. It was clear they wanted to try and pound the ball inside to their only advantage, try and get our big’s in foul trouble and find a way to keep it close. They succeeded because KU turned the ball over again at an alarming rate and we didn’t capitalize on transition baskets that would have changed the complexion of the 2nd half.
A classic play down to your competition game
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Interesting take on play down.
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While I do think there is professional courtesy amongst coaches away from the live gametime, & Self is a master with his disarming charm (media comments, call other coaches by first name)…one fact is clear: he doesnt like Shaka, Drew, & Mizzou.
And Shaka needs a signature W over KU. In fact, he is in the unique position that if he specifically continues to get his ass kicked by Bill Self, it proves the VCU win over KU was a fluke, as he cannot duplicate it.
So its almost a superfluous discussion about courtesy, since Self vs Shaka isnt about to go collegial.
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We usually agree on stuff like this, but I have to respectfully dissent on your superfluity assessment. To me, this game and that handshake line interaction between Shaka and Bill showed the positive side of coaches behaving like positive teachers and leaders rather than just as General Patton wanna be’s. It appeared to me Self was signaling he respected Shaka for coaching the game the way Shaka appeared to coach it, which was very much tilted toward recognizing the limits of his team and the imminence of the next game in 2 days for Texas and 3 for KU. And Bill showing that kind of respect and appreciation to a young up and comer probably turned their relationship more into “their” appropriate collegial relationship than into more of the old petty stuff that was really a hangover from Shaka growing up in the Pitino Owes Kansas forever nonsense that probably got them off on the wrong foot in the first place. Professionals have to fight as gladiators, but as professionals they have it in their authority to determine the limits and purposes of the fight, and to decide where and when it must be a fight to the death, or just a hard fought game. Coaches are , as all professionals are, on the same side. They are instituted and trained to play out roles in society. Their mission, except in the military and Intel is not to destroy the life and career of the opposing coach, but to develop a competitive, money making program that helps players learn to play, get an education, and win as much as is feasible. Whether you win on Saturday or Monday is immaterial. That you try to win as much as possible while doing the rest of your job is your duty. Trying all out to win a game on Saturday that you probably can’t win and so costing yourself a high probability win on Monday would be both unprofessional and stupid. I believe moving forward we will see knock down drag out battles for supremacy between Bill and Shaka, but we will never see the pettyness again. Both men acted like pros in a charged circumstance and now both men trust and respect each other more as a result. This was a win-win for B12 basketball if ever there were one. And I believe for the first time that Shaka is ready to scale the mountain. Old coaches can do this sort of thing for young coaches. They can help them transition beyond just the General Patton stuff to full coaches. Every young professional needs to run into a guy like Self. You may lose some games but look at Frank Martin and Rick Barnes and even Squeaky. They are all better professionals for having squared off with Self, not just better coaches.
