Thoughts from the game- A bittersweet Victory
-
First off great win, this team really rallied around itself and fought hard in the 2nd half. Frank Mason your playing at an All-American Level and if it wasn’t for your heroics in both games I’m not sure where or what we’d be feeling about this team.
Before I go any further I have to ask a serious question to this board
Is the game of College Basketball fun to watch with the way the officials are calling the game?
I find myself angry with how the game is being called. This is significantly worse then any year I can ever remember rules being enforced. 48 fouls last night, 60+ in the Indiana game, this isn’t acceptable. Where has the let the kids play aspect of this sport gone?
Are we okay with Josh Jackson getting a foul for trying to get a loose ball or his 5th foul where he came back into the game for less then 10 seconds? Or the 4 point play Duke got at the end of the game? I could on and on about countless other moments of just “I don’t know what the ref’s are doing”.
Jay Bilas mentioned outside of 3-4 calls every call was justifiable. That these calls were always fouls, they are just now being enforced.
I disagree with this statement. I didn’t see this officiating in the Kentucky/Michigan St game, I didn’t see this in the Oregon/Baylor game I watched earlier in the day. So why is KU getting stuck with some agenda driven officials? RANT over for now…
Positives from the game:
- Frank Mason
Have to start with this guy. That last second shot felt Sherron Collins-esqe. He’s got that fire in him. Played a great game. I didn’t expect his impact on this team would standout so much but its clear that this is HIS team and we’ll live and die with how far he can take us.
- Welcome Josh Jackson
Stretches of that 2nd half where you felt the beast coming out of him. He had what I thought were 3 legitimate gripes on foul calls. Totally disrupted him all night. If not for the foul calls he probably would have showcased a huge game, 15 pts in 18 minutes and he was active. Has to learn how to stay in the game and his FT shooting leaves a lot to be desired. Keep working Josh. He needed that game.
- Doke the stat stuffer.
Funniest moment of the game, watching Doke try and take the ball on a 1 man fast break. Missed the layup, got his own rebound, Dunked and then flexed about it. I thought he was terrific in the 2nd half whether it was rebounding or fighting for points in the lane. With the way Lucas played again the Big Fella might be starting soon.
- Devonte Graham
He made some really great acrobatic layups last night. His defense was stellar all night. He finally came to life, he was big. What is up with his cramping?? Concerning issue. Played all 40 minutes, a true gamer.
- Carlton Bragg
Looked more comfortable again. Besides the obvious foul trouble he had a huge baseline jumper and I thought played well. He competed for rebounds and snatched a few I didn’t expect from him. Keep evolving Carlton.
- Team Defense
We were really locked in to their offense for a good 30 minute stretch there. Forced Allen into a bad shooting night and generally gave them fits trying to get good shots. We rebounded well, and gave great effort on defense. Nothing we can do about the crazy amount of foul calls,
The bad:
- Lucas
What’s wrong with him? How much longer can we ride him being a non-factor. Is the injury really hurting him or are we just seeing the real Landen without Perry around to help him. Is the motivation gone that made him step up last year? Concerning. If Doke plays like he did going forward, hard to see him not passing Lucas.
- Svi:
Actually I thought Svi played well but how do you miss that point blank layup?? That is all. Would have loved to see one of his 3’s go in, the one he had wide open off a blind pass from Mason would have sealed the game.
- 3 point Shooting:
Where is it? 2-17 is hard to overcome
- FT Shooting
9 of 19, won’t cut it in games that come down to the FT game. Hopefully these guys get some shots up and practice
Thoughts guys?
-
@BeddieKU23 I think you covered it well. We looked much better as a team this game, imo. The defense was much better, and it helped us weather poor perimeter and free throw shooting. We got a rebound or two this game, which is progress over last game. JJ was electric at times, along with Doke, which bode well for future development. I feel like the team is 50% finished product, which means it will have a quantum leap at some point this year.
-
@BeddieKU23 said:
“Jay Bilas mentioned outside of 3-4 calls every call was justifiable. That these calls were always fouls, they are just now being enforced.”
Yes, this comment was a total shock coming from one of Duke’s more famous alum…
There are some games where he sounds logical and unbiased. This was not one of them.
-
I don’t think he showed a clear bias last night for either team and before you mentioned it I forgot he was a Duke Alum. There was some calls against Duke that I didn’t understand, or the one blatant foul that was missed when Allen hurt his leg. Mitch whacked the crap out of him point blank in front of a ref. But I think it was clear that KU got hosed on a whole bunch of tick tack plays.
What did they call a good 10 offensive fouls in this game? It’s already out of hand, regardless if these refs are being forced to make things an emphasis. Duke flopped at every chance it got. I felt like Chase Jeter was getting tripped by his own guys he was on the ground so much. Your damn near 7 feet tall.
-
We looked much better as a team in the 2nd half. The first half was forgettable, just bad ball. But we caught Duke with zero depth to play and wore them out before they showed heart in the last few minutes. Lots of momentum to take from this game for later in the season.
-
I thought Svi played real well even though the stats don’t reflect that. He was active and made several plays possible with his play. I feel comfortable now when he’s in the game.
-
About Svi, if the shots aren’t falling figure out a way to help your team, he did, some beautiful assists.
-
Ref’s are ruining the game-see Josh jacksons-minus the T
-
Mason - Is 100% our MVP, the man, etc.
Devonte - showed a bit more of what we expected this year
Josh - had a great stretch there and may be the best freshman wing defender Self has had since Wigs
Bragg - Saw more of the type of aggression we MUST HAVE from him all the time
Lucas - His slow feet are always exposed when playing equal size and better talent
Svi - Some good D and passes but he needs to hit shots period. Being streaky is not what this team needs from him.
Vick - FEARLESS. I think he will get better every game.
Doke - Great energy and effort on the boards. He is still really raw but I love that Self is forced to play him this early. It bodes well for his and our future.
-
Agreed, he played well.
-
That T was a joke. I can’t for the life of me figure out how that is a technical foul
-
@BeddieKU23 Man you must have been inside my head, pretty much everything you said. Your right it was a great win. Ya I know we are going to have people from across the Nation saying - - - well Duke was without their 3 Freshman super studs - - ya this is true - - BUT we could also counter point and say well how many times are WE going to go 2 17 from the 3 - - -& 9-19 from the Free throw line? PLUS as was pointed out, I don’t want to hear any of that cause DUKE is still loaded with studs, really good teams over come adversity, it’s not our fault who is hurt, we can only play who is out on the floor - -that’s all we can do.
Some other things I noticed like yourself, I feel pretty good about Udoka. I mean the good thing is we are going to have him for two years, & I think maybe even possibly 3. If he can develop ANY KIND of a shot he is going to be an absolute beast - -I mean he had 12 rebounds last night - -6 points - - but if he can develop ANY kind of offensive moves then hell ya I love that, hell I already love it - -and your right it was quite the sight watching him try and maneuver down the court -but hey at least he stayed with it lol.
I mean dam, I usually try and upheld the ref’s as I used to be one - - but dam this is crazy, we have been in serious, serious foul trouble both games - - - both teams last night was close to the one & one before the FIRST television time out - - -I mean come on - -how the hell can people expect teams to get ANY KIND OF FLOW if they are going to be like that? - - Then later in the year you won’t see HALF this crap being called, that’s what makes it really frustrating. One time in particular we come down and either Frank or Devonte drives gets what should of been a blocking fouled called on Duke - - and nothing - -we go to the other end and BAM same dam thing they call.
I’m sure Josh was VERY frustrated, I know of TWO for sure calls that was just utter bullshit on him - - -his fifth when like Bilas said Kennard sold that thing, that wasn’t squat after the way they had been calling the game & then I believe where they should of called a tie up and they called him, I mean you can say well he was coming over the guys back while he was on the floor but I mean come on - - REALLY? I hope he carries this over, he came out the 2nd half and looked nice.
Landen has just got to BE STRONGER he looks once again like he is lost, and why the hell he wants to bring the ball down - - -WOW - -but I know Coach will stick with him for awhile cause of Udoka development - -but if the big guy can learn to play longer without getting in so much foul trouble and Landen keeps going like he is at the present - - -who knows
I know BOTH teams will be better even much better later in the year - - Us because Josh will be more comfortable and then the beast hopefully will keep improving - -I think Frank is an Animal right now just think Devonte - - -Applachian St & Frank Townson Right?- - -holy crap. - - ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
-
I thought JJ deserved the T. It was a stupid move.
I was surprised UDunka stayed out of the game after getting his 4th. Pretty sure he didn’t reenter.
@BeddieKU23 I’ve wondered the same about the huge number of fouls in both of our games. Is there something about our style that is leading officials to call things so tight? Are they trying to use us as an example? Not sure of the answer, but it cost us one game and nearly a 2nd game that we should have won comfortably but didn’t because of the whistles.
@jayballer54 Just playing devils advocate. On Josh’s fourth foul, imagine being an official watch a meeting of 3 players at real time and trying to discern what just happened. I could easily see where they could call that. Josh’s arm was caught up in the ‘transaction’ and it appeared like he stuck his arm out in the way of the dribbler.
Did anyone see Svi get punched in the stomach on his missed bunny? It was courtesy of Grayson.
-
@BeddieKU23 Yes the game isnt fun to watch when there is a whistle every 10 seconds, i thought they let them play for a few minutes at the midway point of the second half. LL will be fine once he finds his groove, he’s still being bothered bye his ankle.
-
Nice thread.
I think this is a sign of things to come with Josh.
To answer your opening question… No. It’s ridiculous. It’s not basketball.
-
@BeddieKU23 it was dumb to do it though! He’s learning, nobody happier than him after game! He’s a team guy that’s loving playing for KU!
-
@wissox no way doke is in at the end of a close game. LL did a great job of setting up Mason. Needed an experienced bb iq in there
-
I believe the play your referencing about the officiating not being consistent on both sides was Mason drove, seeked contact, was definitely fouled by Jefferson but no call, and Mason missed the shot. Not even 10 seconds later Kennard drove left baseline, Graham shuffled his feet and stayed with him but they called a foul. Not sure if he got his hands on him or not but from everything I could tell he did nothing wrong. If calls like that are the norm all year I don’t know how anyone is expected to stay in front of a driving player. KU was the benefit of a few of these suspect touch fouls as well.
Too many plays just screamed “play on”. Making the game what it isn’t in my opinion is ruining everything
-
@BeddieKU23 Josh Jackson’s FIFTH foul was a clear joke. Kennard for sure sold that like they said, hell the official that was standing right next to Jackson and Kennard wasn’t even the one who made the call - -it was the official clear on the OTHER side of the court. - -the officiating was terrible on both sides - - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
-
The encouraging things with Jackson last night.
He let his drives set up jump shots. Once he was comfortable driving the jump shots were in rhythm.
His defense is good when he’s not overselling to steal the ball. His steal at half court for a dunk was all instinct. The 2nd one where he got a bogus foul call was I thought a positive play. Reminded me of Devonte Graham play against Nova.
We used Josh in P&R a bunch which made him available on a switch. Self should stick with that 1-2 action with Mason/Graham. Will definitely benefit our offense.
Competitiveness. He’s obviously got to be careful about how animated he gets over calls and plays but that stretch in the 2nd half was the Alpha Dog coming out in him. I think that game was important for him, we’re going to see more flashes of his talent now.
-
It was a stupid play but my gripe is why is that a T? What exactly is the message your sending. Poor execution of authority in my mind. He’ll learn
-
Solid points. He definitely needs to keep it under control. He could have been headed for a legendary half without those boneheaded fouls right or wrong from the refs.
This was still just game 2 with Josh of course (sorry Washburn and ESU you do not count) and now we have a bunch of rummies lined up for him to continue to find his way in the college game.
-
It’s probably best that Jackson didn’t have the type of game the media would gush over. Keeps him in check and will keep him hungry. We know now that his potential to take over a game is there and is one of the most encouraging result of the game. Mason is probably not going to be “the guy” every game. We thought all off-season we had many options to go to and balance would be there but offensively it looks like Mason/Graham & Jackson will have to bring it every game against the good teams for this team to keep getting better.
-
Agree. Only thing that can change that is Bragg getting it together. But right now Bragg fouls too much and is an inconsistent scorer.
-
The offense just needs to evolve to where Bragg can pick his spots on offense. He’s an excellent option on a P&R to the hoop, he cuts hard to the basket. He’s also a great option for a pick and pop situation. Giving him the ball on the block and telling him to go to work looks uncomfortable the few times he did. He’s got to leverage his body better. He’s our best FT shooter from the posts so if we can maximize his spots to high % shots or plays that draw fouls that will benefit this team tremendously. We isolated Lucas or Doke a lot and outside of Doke getting a few baskets it was poor offense.
-
My friend has a conspiracy theory that the NBA is paying off college refs to make the sport unwatchable. Just something to ponder haha
-
I was impressed by Dokes hands. He’s a vacuum from which no rebound can escape.
-
@dylans I loved it when he wouldn’t even let Mason have his board! He’s learning to protect the ball, or value the ball!
-
The best part of the game besides the win was getting tickets for our game in Austin! Can’t wait!
-
Without having seen too many games from other teams, I’m not sure Duke is as good as their ranking. I think our guards were just too good for Duke. They had to expend much more effort to stay with us.
Compare this game with the Indiana game, and I think we played worse than against IU, which we lost because IU has athletic guards and a stable of other talented players. Josh Jackson also played a much better game. I have no idea if Indiana contained him better or what (my guess is no, but I’d have to watch again).
Against the stiffest competition, we need to see better and better performances from Svi and Vick. Grayson Allen walked right around Vick at the end of the game with no screen. Not acceptable.
If Azubuike keeps developing on this trajectory, I will feel much more confident about our big situation.
Refereeing: It may become the norm that we get awful treatment, like in the tournament last year. I felt we overcame some whistles against Maryland by basically playing near our ceiling, but against legit competition (Villanova), we did not play well enough to overcome being jobbed. Assuming the same is the case this year, we are not yet good enough.
-
Lots of thoughts from last night. I will try to hit the highlights.
Jackson - the conversation starts with him because he was primed to have one of those nights that everyone wakes up this morning talking about. He had about a 2 minute stretch there where he confirmed every scouting report out there. He did everything. Josh Jackson is the best defensive player to come to KU under Self. Better than Releford. Better than Wiggins. Better than Rush. Jackson can cover anyone except the biggest and best interior players. He handled Jefferson last night on the block on a few occasions. Guarded the perimeter as well. Jackson is the full package. Even on nights when his offense doesn’t click, he will have to be on the floor because of what he can bring defensively, which is what made the fouls so frustrating. If Josh stays on the floor, KU wins by double figures.
Mason - Great game from him. He is starting to pick his spots, although there were still a couple of drives that were ill conceived. The late game pull up was everything you want from a senior PG. He ran the clock down and got a good shot. Can’t ask for anything more from Frank.
Graham - his shooting stroke isn’t quite dialed in yet, but he is finishing around the rim. The only issue that I have with Devonte is that both he and Frank are finishing shots that are extremely difficult. If some of those shots roll off the rim, we are in a lot more trouble. We need to get both Frank and Devonte some easier chances around the rim. Also need to find a way to monitor both of their minutes. As for the cramps, I think as Devonte has added muscle to his frame (he’s a pretty slight guy), he is struggling with how to keep his bulkier muscles stretched out. That’s a challenge for lots of smaller guys as they add muscle. I think it will sort itself out as the season wears on, but for now he just needs to watch his diet and hydrate.
Lucas - he’s not physically right at the moment, so I would rather see him take two weeks off, get healthy and then come back as opposed to playing at 80%. I understand the lack of interior depth, but it wouldn’t hurt to have Lightfoot and Udoka get some experience in the non-con while Landen heals up. There are going to be games where we need his experience and bulk, and we will want him 100% when that happens.
Bragg - starting to find ways to affect the game more. I would like to see him hit the offensive glass harder. He did some good things last night and his ability to hit that 17 footer changes the shape of the defense. I still want to see Self unleash the KU version of the lineup of death - either Mason or Graham with Vick-Svi-Jackson-Bragg. There are maybe 3 teams in the country (Duke when healthy, UNC and Kentucky) that can handle that lineup on both ends.
Svi - At times last night, Svi was the best player on the floor. He handled the ball, rebounded, made probably the three best passes of the night. If Svi was shooting well right now, he would be making his way into the first round of the NBA draft. However, his struggles right now are related to trying to find his strength as he adds bulk to his frame. He made an incredible rebound, then just couldn’t get back off the floor to finish the layup that would have probably sealed the game.
Vick - This guy is going to be a stud… next year. He’s also probably going to save our bacon once or twice this season. Watching him this year vs. last year is like night and day. He’s much more confident with the ball, and he’s probably the second best defender on the team after Jackson, and his length allows him to handle some 4’s in a pinch, as well as handle the ball as the secondary ball handler in other lineups. Vick makes this team much more versatile because he can be in lineups that go big or small. At least once this season I want Self to put in the lightning lineup - Mason-Graham-Vick-Svi-Jackson. You could go big to try and offset that lineup, but if you don’t have a lot of interior talent, going big probably just gets you run off the floor against those guys, and most teams don’t have the pure talent to match up by going small.
Udoka - I’m glad he will be here for two years because he needs a little more time to put it all together. He’s big and strong and agile, but he hasn’t put that all into a basketball package yet. When he does though, look out. There were moments where he was sliding with guards 30 feet from the basket. Guys that are 7-0, 285 shouldn’t be able to do that. I’d like to see him paired with Bragg more so that the floor can be spaced even with two traditional big men. Udoka still needs space because he hasn’t developed that part of his game, although he is a pretty adept passer at this stage.
I can see a rough image of what this team will be. Self has identified the correct rotation already - Mason-Graham-Jackson-Bragg-Lucas with Svi-Vick-Udoka and Lightfoot in post mop up minutes. The thing now is to just get those groups functioning well together, which means getting Lucas healthy, managing Mason and Graham’s minutes and finding a way to get Jackson, Svi and Vick to play without as much fouling.
-
Does anyone really want to get in Dokes way? Beast. The true muscle we have needed for some time.
Doke may now have played more meaningful minutes than Diallo did all year.
Dumb tech but I love that JJ cares so much. He appears to have the want to that our other OAD wings have lacked. We saw last night what we really have in JJ and its very good. We WANTS IT!
-
@dylans Once doke figures out how to not foul and his foot work he will be a beast
-
Don’t forget that three of Duke’s best five players were in suits last night. They are very good if they ever get healthy. Giles especially will be a nightmare.
-
I’m starting to wonder if this year’s championship will carry an asterisk… the year the officials decided to reteach a new game.
I’ve been harping about this for several years now. Glad you mentioned Bilas. This is where I rub horns with Jay, who failed beyond his years at Duke strictly because he wasn’t a physical enough player to make it in the league.
Listen to Jay’s coded messaging. The guy should be a politician. On a few calls he sort of stuck up for Kansas, like on Josh’s half court BS call. On Josh’s 5th foul, he didn’t really stick up for the fact that the Duke player sold it to the refs on a night that you could have sold those Eskimo refs a block of ice.
And Jay’s general messaging… that all contact is a foul, and should be called in order to “open up the game” is so much bull snit I can hardly stand to watch the game, even if one of the teams is Kansas. Yes… call the games this tight and eventually the game will open up. Why do we want that? Marketing wonks have determined that more people will watch if the scores are higher. The idea is that viewers want to see offense, not defense. Just ask the NBA how that is working out. So this game would be better if the final score had been 128 to 126? I don’t think so. For me… I would much rather see a tremendous defensive play over a tremendous offensive play any day of the week. The windmill dunks from the free throw line are awesome but not nearly as impressive as the defensive stop where I guy catches up to a break away dunk and disturbs it by just getting there in time.
It was a typical night of having to beat Duke refs along with their team, too. I believe all refs need to watch an educational video just about the nonsense of Duke players faking fouls and whining about every call. It is friggin’ pathetic, and they are cr@pping all over the game just to win, just like Cal does with his recruitment of 12 McDs AAs. BTW: I believe Duke has 8 or 9 McDs AAs on this team, 3 who are injured.
At least I get to enjoy my Christmas this year… meeting with part of my family who graduated from Duke.
-
@justanotherfan who was the 4th member of the quartet, or quads dressed alike that looked just like stepford wives?
-
Well said!
The game is just not called this way in the NBA, not anywhere in the world on any level. I just don’t understand any of this. There is a physical element to the game of basketball that just cannot be taken away and that’s all these ref’s did last night.
If the calls are to be this tight, College should be allowed 6 fouls and the game should go to quarters where fouls reset. This brand of basketball cannot be here for good without changes made to how the game is run. Duke & KU were in the bonus after the first TV time-out. That is just beyond ludicrous
As you said the NCAA wants exciting action. If they want that, adapt the same freaking rules as the NBA and everything will be fine.
Besides everything we won the game and history has proven that coaches and players adapt over time to how the game gets called. But this just seems like the biggest breach from reality especially in the two games KU has played in
-
The fourth guy was Sean Obi. He was there last year, but didn’t play much.
-
@justanotherfan said:
The fourth guy was Sean Obi. He was there last year, but didn’t play much.
Yeah. Once they get everyone healthy Obi isn’t playing anyway.
-
@justanotherfan I’ve actually changed my tune on this. I think Tatum and Giles might not have had much of an impact yesterday.
-
Tatum I don’t think would have. A healthy Giles around the rim would have made some of the drives from Frank and Devonte much more challenging. Plus, Giles is very mobile, so he covers a lot of ground. He’s similar to Anthony Davis in that respect.
Of course, the way the game was officiated, he probably would have had three or four fouls for most of the night anyway, so it’s hard to say he would have been a factor.
-
I thought it was dramatic when JJ lost his cool after the 50/50 ball. Devonte wrapped him up with both arms and yelled in his face “Shut up, shut up!” Afterwards, Bill had a calming discussion with Josh about how to handle bad calls while smiling at him. It reminded me of Marty talking to Derrick Thomas on the sideline after a flagrant. Josh went to the bench still angry. Devonte did the same hug with Frank after the Buddy Hield strip in the first OU game last year. I like Josh’s fire as long as he can stay in the game.
-
One thing nobody mentioned is that Kennard was able to get midrange jumpshots at will around the foul line. I don’t know if that was just a match up thing, but other than a couple rim runs early on, those midrange jumpers was the only reliable penetration Duke had against us. I wonder if his ability to get that shot resulted in a half time adjustment of Self having the guards double down on cutters, leaving wing 3s wide open with Frank trying to close back out.
-
@BeddieKU23 I don’t see any bitter in this victory, only sweet. This early in the season, any negatives from the game are merely learning opportunities. What doesn’t kill you makes you stronger. And any Duke loss is delicious.
-
I think that was a conscious decision on how to defend Kennard. Not wanting him to get three point looks, KU funneled him into the middle for the pull up. He hit several of those even when challenged, but KU didn’t give up the three. I actually preferred that to giving good looks from three. Duke has too many shooters to give them those shots.
-
@kjayhawks You know like I posted on another thread I think - -if and When Udoka develops any kind of offensive moves - - shot- - like you said - - - - - LOOK OUT I’m thinking maybe , just maybe we end up having him for Three years, it could happen - - -Wishful thinking I guess, really looking forward to see his progression - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
-
@justanotherfan Saw where some of their fans are talking like Giles might not even play at all this year - - dunnop just what I was reading - - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
-
@jayballer54 said:
@justanotherfan Saw where some of their fans are talking like Giles might not even play at all this year - - dunnop just what I was reading - - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
He will play. However, all the schools recruiting him knew the risks. This is a kid that blew out EACH knee in HS in separate years. He is a transcendent talent, but he may never truly get to show it.
-
@approxinfinity said:
One thing nobody mentioned is that Kennard was able to get midrange jumpshots at will around the foul line. I don’t know if that was just a match up thing, but other than a couple rim runs early on, those midrange jumpers was the only reliable penetration Duke had against us. I wonder if his ability to get that shot resulted in a half time adjustment of Self having the guards double down on cutters, leaving wing 3s wide open with Frank trying to close back out.
Self wanted the team to guard the 3 pt line, which they did.
-
@jayballer54 said:
@kjayhawks You know like I posted on another thread I think - -if and When Udoka develops any kind of offensive moves - - shot- - like you said - - - - - LOOK OUT I’m thinking maybe , just maybe we end up having him for Three years, it could happen - - -Wishful thinking I guess, really looking forward to see his progression - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
If Udoka develops offensive moves and becomes a reliable scorer inside, we are talking potential NPOY. Could happen his 3rd or 4th year if he sticks around.
-
@jayballer54 He reminds me of a bigger Trob
