Turner / Lyle

  • I know a few have said BleacherReport isn’t worth much. However, we are mentioned as still in the running for both these guys.

    Remaining Undeclared Players

    There are three big names still on the board that haven’t yet committed to a school. Signing one of these players could propel a team from honorable mention to top 10.

    Myles Turner (6’11" C)

    No. 4 in 247Sports; No. 2 in ScoutHoops; No. 2 in ESPN

    The pain of missing out on Jahlil Okafor will vanish in a hurry for whichever team is able to land Turner. The big man excels on both ends of the court and runs like a gazelle. Kansas is the current favorite to acquire his services, but don’t sleep on Southern Methodist. Pairing Turner with Emmanuel Mudiay would give SMU one of the five or six best classes in the nation.

    Here is a video of Turner:

    Jaquan Lyle (6’5" PG/SG)

    No. 22 in 247Sports; No. 22 in ScoutHoops; No. 38 in ESPN

    Lyle is a combo guard who’s a bit too big to be a pure point guard, but not enough of a three-point threat to be a pure shooting guard. However, he has great ball-handling skills and court awareness. If Kansas isn’t already the favorite to add Lyle, it likely will be after his visit to Phog Allen Fieldhouse on January 11.

    Rashad Vaughn (6’5" SG)

    No. 13 in 247Sports; No. 13 in ScoutHoops; No. 17 in ESPN

    Vaughn is a prolific scorer and could potentially become the cream of this year’s shooting guard crop if he gets a little more consistent with his shot. UNLV is the “hometown” favorite, as he is attending Findlay Prep in Henderson, NV. He would certainly fill the scoring void in the Rebels’ current class.

  • What if Joel stays and we already have Cliff coming in. Would Turner want to come into that competition for playing time?

  • @wissoxfan83 : Joel won’t be here next year. I think Myles knows enough about ball to know that too.

  • Embiid is gone. If Turner does end up coming to KU who sits between Ellis, Alexander, and Turner?

    Lyle might be waiting to see what Selden does. If Selden comes back, which, from what I’ve seen he should, then I doubt Lyle comes to KU. If Selden leaves, Lyle would probably start at the 2 for KU.

  • @wissoxfan83 I hear you, but I just don’t see it. Joel is gone. There’s almost no way he stays at KU. He’s a top 5 pick, maybe #1 overall. I thought at the beginning of the season he might stay, but he’s just gotten too good too fast to be at KU beyond this year.

    As for the others, quick and dirty scouting reports on Turner and Vaughn, as I already covered Lyle here:

    Turner Positives - He’s an excellent shotblocker. Not only does he block shots, but he does it with a lot of control and keeps the ball inbounds quite a bit, which will lead to lots of fast break chances. He also has nice shooting mechanics for a player with his size. That can only help him. A willing (and effective) passer. Decent handles for a big guy, although he may be tempted to overuse them. Good athlete. Both quick and explosive.

    Negatives - Pretty skinny and doesn’t appear to be all that strong. He can grow into that, but he’s at least 35-40 pounds away. Footwork isn’t always the best around the bucket. He can get away with that now, but probably won’t pass muster in college with more disciplined defenders. Fades too much on jumpshots when he doesn’t have to. He’s big enough to face up and go strong, but he fades. This may improve with added strength.

    Overall - He’s very skilled, especially for a player of his size. He has some bad habits, like shooting fadeaways and over dribbling, but he has a lot of talent. He and Alexander up front would be quite a shotblocking, rebounding, rim protecting tandem, although neither is as skilled around the bucket as Perry.

    Vaughn Positives - Has a very, very pretty jumper. When his mechanics are right, it’s a beauty. I can understand why they say that he could be the best 2 guard if he’s consistent with it. He could be an elite level 3pt shooter with those mechanics, especially given his size and strength. Actually, he should develop into an elite level 3pt shooter. His mechanics are that good when he’s right. He can handle the ball and get to the rim. Just a nice overall offensive package.

    Negatives - Defensively he needs work on his footwork, and probably on his consistency of effort, but what freshman doesn’t? Good, but not great athlete (or maybe I’ve been watching too much Andrew Wiggins). His shot isn’t consistent because he sometimes loses his release point and just sort of flicks the ball. When he keeps that release point high, his jumper is true. When he starts flicking it, it sails on him a bit. He can still hit those shots, but it’s going to cut his percentages down.

    Overall - Whether he is a very good or elite offensive player will depend almost entirely on the work he puts into keeping his form together on his jumpshot. He’s very good anyway. He could be absolutely elite. He and Oubre on the perimeter would be a nightmare, and they are already teammates at Findlay.

  • Niko Roberts and Justin Wesley will both be graduating. Seems like they’ve both been here forever. Maybe Embiid knows another volleyball playing footer Cameroonian that has never played basketball before and would like to walk on for us.

  • @KirkIsMyHinrich I see NO problem with them at all or a log jam. It’s a coach’s dream. Alexander is capable of playing the 4 or 5. This would give Ellis some great breaks. Then, Alexander can play the 5 too. I don’t see Turner starting right away due to his size. Unless he improves like Embiid, he will need some Hudy-izing in the off season. Alexander will likey be your starter at the 5. Turner can provide Alexander with some breaks. I want Turner really bad in Lawrence, but wouldn’t be too broken if he played for LB at SMU. However, rumor has it LB may be retiring after this year. We’ll be fine with Alexander, Lucas, and Mickelson at the 5. They could start for most other programs in the nation. JaTray will be a great experienced backup for Ellis at the 4 too. I guarantee you there’s nothing at OSU after this year. Smart, Brown, and even mental case Nash will all three be gone. Ford’s wheels are falling off his trike after this year. I wouldn’t go to OSU because there’s nothing there, unless of course they return. The only way Turner goes to OSU is if Smart stays another year, which is insane. Ford has nothing after this year.

  • @truehawk93 I just meant who starts and who comes off the bench. I know that all 3 will get plenty of minutes.

    And ya, I agree with you that if he goes somewhere besides Kansas I would want it to be SMU.

  • @KirkIsMyHinrich I don’t see Lyle beating out Oubre or Greene for the starting wing spots. Heck, I think it is more likely that our starting guards are Mason, Tharpe, and Oubre.

  • @TheDrunkenJhawk I posted this a while back.

    If Selden stays he’ll obviously start at the 2 guard. If not, I don’t think Mason and Tharpe will start together, because that would leave very little ball handling coming off the bench, and also not a lot of outside shooting in the starting lineup. Greene and White can shoot but aren’t great ball handlers and seem a little slow for the position. Frankamp might be the best option of the current players to start at 2 next season because he can shoot and he’s a pretty good ball handler. But he’s not very big or very athletic, and he’s not a good defender.

    If KU gets JaQuan Lyle I think he’ll probably start at the 2 next season (if Selden leaves). Not necessarily because I think he’s better than Frankamp, Greene, or White, but because he fits the position better. He’s 6’4/6’5, he can dribble, he’s a great passer, he can shoot 3’s off the catch or off the dribble, he can drive to the basket, and he’s pretty athletic.

    That leaves Mason free to run the back up point. That also means Greene, White, and Frankamp would have to fight for minutes for the 5th guard spot and we might see a transfer.

    Edit: I do think that Selden will stay though, so probably none of this speculation will matter much.

  • No way that Turner comes if either Embiid or Ellis stays. Either one. Both would have to turn pro. If not, Turner, a top 5 player, would risk not starting. Cannot fathom that. But I would love to have Turner. Count me in completely.

    However, I want no part of Vaughn or Lyle. Please go elsewhere. I just want our current group of perimeter players to stay intact, understanding Wiggins is leaving. Even if Selden goes too, we have a group of perimeter players than I’d match up against any team in the country.

    Tharpe, Mason, Selden, Greene, White, Frankamp and Oubre. All but Oubre with experience. And Oubre is top 10.


  • @HighEliteMajor : Agree with you on not picking anyone else up. I like the current guys we have. I fear someone will transfer if we fill out our roster with any of the top guards. I know there’s speculation but I hope it’s just that and everyone comes back next year. <— I know Embiid, Wiggins are gone.

  • Turner is a 5 and Ellis and Alexander are 4s. If we lose Embiid, we’ll have a spot for Turner probably starting. If we lose Embiid we need a legit 5 to come in and swat balls away.

    From everything I’ve heard, Turner is waiting to see if Embiid goes. That means, he wants to come to Kansas if Embiid goes.

    If everything goes right for Embiid, he’s gone, but we can’t say 100%. He could get hurt and stick around like B.Rush did. As a current projected #1 pick (possible) it makes no sense for him to stick it out another year at Kansas and put that desirability at risk.

    If Turner comes… I think the guy sitting on the fence is Ellis. There is no way he can beat out Alexander to start at the 4. He’d become his backup. But the positive for Ellis is he may just get some minutes at the 3. From what we have seen from him this year, he still looks like a NBA 'tweener. Unless he can grow some Thomas Robinson-sized muscles between now and his draft day, he’ll probably stay a 'tweener.

    Perry did nail a 3 recently… wasn’t that in the Toledo game? I’ll be paying close attention to what spots on the floor he continues to shoot from. I think he is dreaming more about being a Marcus Morris kind of player at the next level.

  • @drgnslayr Do you think the 4/5 distinction is of any importance? We won a national title in 2008 with two 4s starting … Arthur and Jackson, and no real shot blocker? Kaun was off the bench as a pure 5. In 2011, I wouldn’t characterize either Morris twin, or TRob as a 5. All really 4s. I just wouldn’t worry about who is a 4 and who is a 5 in the post. As is, we’ll start Ellis and Alexander – both 4s (assuming Ellis is back and Embiid is gone).

    If Turner comes in and starts with Ellis, we’ll likely have a very unhappy camper in the Alexander, the #3 guy in the country. I can’t believe that he comes off the bench, either. Don’t get me wrong, I’d take it. But I’m quite sure Self told Alexander that Embiid was gone and he’d start. Can’t imagine Alexander coming thinking he might be a backup.

    Any flaws in that logic?

  • @TheDrunkenJhawk I really see Tharpe solidifying the pg this year and into next year. If Mason keeps making strides and learns OJT, he’ll be about ready to take over for Tharpe. If you think about it, Mason will be a junior when Tharpe leaves. But, Self and Co needs to look really hard now for a premier pg in the next two classes 2015-16 and 16-17. I’d like to see a pg come in next year. Allonzo Trier 6-3, 185 | Class of 2015 34th HometownOklahoma City, Okla. SchoolMontrose Christian School PositionPoint Guard Status Undeclared BU, UConn, Houston, KU, Marquette, OU, Oral Robt, OkSt, Rice, A&M, Tulsa, and Wich St I know it’s a little early, but it doesn’t hurt to look a bit ahead of the game and still focus on this year. Right now they are focused on SDSU. So, nothing personal against Lyle, but unless he started with KU, he seems a bit of a pass at this point. It has nothing to do with his ability, but timing is huge right now for our pg situaiton.

  • @HighEliteMajor I WANT TURNER. I just don’t think Self wants to get caught without any bigs as when the twins left. Most thought Mk Morris was coming back and he left Self’s 5 open all to Withey. It wasn’t too bad, but I really think Self loves the 4 and 5 and will do whatever it takes to get another quality big. I see Turner as a two year project. He is a bit like Isaiah Austin.
    My “logic” is as before. If you read, I see Alexander starting on size alone at 5. The guy is NBA ready. Managers are already licking their chops for this guy. He’s as good as gone and if it weren’t for the stupid rule we all debate often, Alexander would be pro. However, here is my “logic”: Tharpe Selden/Oubre AW3/Oubre (I hope AW3 goes the distance) Ellis/Alexander/JayTray Alexander/Turner/Lucas/Mick My coaching plan would be to have Ellis 4 and Alex at 5. Turner will give Alex a break and Alex will give Ellis some breathers. They all get the pt either way. Turner is your project and wish he could learn from Embiid. I’d say Turner is back a second year, unless he has an Embiid repeat. Mason/Trier (?) Jr Oubre (?) Soph AW3 (if he hangs around) Sr Ellis/JayTray (if he goes the distance, may be gone after his junior yr) Jr and Sr Turner/Lucas/Mickelson - Fr, Jr and Soph

    Either way, it’s all good.

  • @truehawk93 Greene?

  • @drgnslayr Below are comments from Bill Self as posted on KUSports today: Joel could go anywhere this year from 1 to 5 probably (in the 2014 Draft), I would say,” Self said. “It would be hard for a staff member or myself to say, ‘Hey it’s best for you to come back.’ It’s really probably best for us if he comes back,” the coach added with a laugh.

    “Jo is a little different now,” Self quickly added. “He is a young man who is very, very young, not just in basketball experience (starting in the sport at age 15), but in worldly experience. Just coming to the States (from Cameroon) … he is trying to figure it all out.

    “I talked to him the other day. He said, ‘Well, shouldn’t I learn how to drive a car first?’ He can get a nice car, but he probably can get somebody to drive him so he doesn’t have to worry about that (in NBA).”

    Self said it’s simply too early to tell whether Embiid will be a one-and-done.

    “I’d say everybody on the outside would say he’s probably definitely going to go because everybody who could go that high goes,” Self said. “But the reality of it is, I don’t feel that way at all. I feel he should do what is best for he and his life.

    “The thing that is a little bit confusing is everybody comes from a little bit of a different economic background. There are some families you could never risk that (not going). There’s some like Joel who comes from a fairly affluent family. That is the reason why a lot of people leave, for the dollar. That won’t be why Joel leaves. He’ll leave because he’s ready. He has a long way to go to be where he can potentially be so he has the greatest career. I’m a big believer in that.

    “He will make a lot of money if he comes out this year; but I would hope he is prepared to have the best career he possibly can, not just go for the check.”

    Self said somebody told him this week, “of the last 15 No. 11 picks in the NBA draft, seven of them didn’t get a second contract. Just because you are a lottery pick doesn’t guarantee anything. It guarantees you three to four years, then you’ve got to produce. I think Jo will make a great decision. If it is leaving after this year we’ll certainly support that. He’ll make a great decision, one that is best for his life.”

    At first I also felt that Embiid is gone after this season for sure but after reading these comments I have a feeling that Embiid will come back. These comments regarding his return makes sense.

  • I’m sort of with HEM on this. Obviously I would love if Embiid stayed but I’m wondering how Alexander would handle that. I feel sure that Self’s recruiting pitch to Cliff included that he would be starting, and I’m sure he’s expecting to start wherever he goes. Same thing if Embiid left and Turner ended up picking KU. Somebody would have to come off of the bench because I seriously doubt that Ellis would start at the 3.

  • “The thing that is a little bit confusing is everybody comes from a little bit of a different economic background. There are some families you could never risk that (not going). There’s some like Joel who comes from a fairly affluent family. That is the reason why a lot of people leave, for the dollar. That won’t be why Joel leaves. He’ll leave because he’s ready. He has a long way to go to be where he can potentially be so he has the greatest career. I’m a big believer in that.

    @AsadZ You grabbed the essence of the article. The quote above is the best reason why Embiid might make a decision that stuns the pundits.

  • @bskeet I agree, The kid is so young and new in the system that he does not even know how to drive a car.

  • @HighEliteMajor -

    “Do you think the 4/5 distinction is of any importance? We won a national title in 2008 with two 4s starting … Arthur and Jackson, and no real shot blocker?”

    Sure… we had 6’11" Sasha Kahn, and 6’11" Cole Aldrich made his debut against North Carolina in the semis. I don’t put too much into who starts… if it was Kahn or Jackson. But we had two players that fit the role of 5s.

    Cole’s debut: 8 pts, 7 rebs and 4 blocks in 16 minutes!

    I’m totally guessing here… but I’m guessing Self always wants to keep a tree for the 5.

    You are right… in our hi/lo offense the 4 and 5 are interchangeable. They are better described as “left” and “right.” But on defense, Self wants a tree in there to help fix the problems created through running his sticky M2M defense. Someone has to clean up the mess… It is all by design. Withey was a gifted shot-blocker, but it was through Self’s design of our defense that helped create record amounts of blocks. No way Withey had all those blocks playing for any other college coach.

    That’s all part of Self’s design… and it should be sold to recruits that way. We should have Turner eating out of our hands… just take him into the Jayhawk video room and maybe start with Cole… then go to Withey… then go to Embiid… How can any 5-star center say “no” to Self after that?

  • @drgnslayr didn’t think there’s was much difference in 4-5 or 2-3, but having Embiid this year, think I’m wrong!

  • Right… there is huge difference between Ellis and Embiid. That’s the kind of difference Self is looking for. But on offense, both have to earn their meal ticket in the low post, back to the basket.

    And we should see a difference between the 2 and 3 (though, you are correct, sometimes we don’t). The 2 should play tighter with the PG, to make sure he has a constant passing outlet. The 3 should have more roaming privileges… like setting up in the corners, working up the base line, anywhere in mid range…

    I never liked our offense when the 2 and 3 were played like “left” and “right.” It needs to work that ways sometimes in hi/lo, but to always setup on the perimeter, never moving from the perimeter, and just passing back and forth until the shot clock expires is not a way to run offense. I hope we never see that happen again!

  • @AsadZ - Hey, thanks for that post. I hadn’t read that from Self. I know how he has basically thrown some of these guys out early. He did that with BMac, and BMac was probably less ready to go than JoJo will be by March.

    I’m the guy that would like to see all these kids stay. But I’ve come to accept the early departures as the way it is. One in a million of these kids are ready for the NBA after just one year in college.

  • @drgnslayr I guess I’m just saying that if you have two very good 4s, a true 5 is not a necessity. I do prefer two excellent 4s vs. having a 5 like Withey or Aldrich. That’s because I prefer a very fast paced attack. I like having one in the bag (bench) if needed. But while Withey was great offensively, he wasn’t an aggressive rebounder and wasn’t much of an offensive threat. I’d take a Darrell Arthur paired with TRob, for example, instead of Withey. And I liked our flexibility with Marcus/Markieff/TRob instead of Aldrich. Embiid, well, different sort of player. Turner might be, too. The tallest guy on the floor that can score is something to behold.

    You cited the North Carolina game in 2008. In the title game vs. Memphis, Arthur and Jackson played a combined 64 minutes, while Kaun and Aldrich combined for 25 minutes. But to your point, you need to have a 5 type guy for match-ups, whether starting or off the bench. See Kaun vs. Davidson.

  • @drgnslayr I also hate the OAD, but mine is more about emotional maturity than skill level. That pic of BMac crying after signing, choked me up. I know he needed money for his family, but crap, he needed to enjoy his college days.

  • @drgnslayr agree completely on your 2 and 3. Anyone that wants to post an article about angry Gregg Marshall, there’s another article about his thoughts on playing us and KSU on CBS sports. I don’t know how to do it. I can’t stand him!!!

  • Several of us commented on this issue in another thread. Would love to have Turner and put him in the rotation with Ellis and Alexander at the 4/5. The problem is there are 80 mins of PT at the 4/5. Split evenly that’s approx. 26 mins. each. In competitive games, Ellis plays at least 35 mins. barring foul trouble (or a Georgetown “hard foul”). That leaves 22 1/2 mins each for Alexander and Turner if split evenly. While on paper that sounds good to us, 2 guys that are rated among the top big guys and both (I imagine) believe that they are OAD candidates may likely not be happy with that possibility. Turner MAY be waiting on Embiid’s status, but he also may only come if Perry leaves (which most of us seem to think is not likely…or at least we hope so). So I’m in the camp that says we only get Turner if Perry leaves also. I hope I’m wrong. Interesting comments by Self on Embiid…I think he was just covering all of the bases though. I don’t think that changes, at least not yet, the chances that Embiid stays…which are slim, at best. As others noted…Vaughn or Lyle are probably only possibilities if Selden leaves…and I hope he doesn’t. At least it’s good to (apparently) have options if multiple guys make the jump.

  • Self needs a PG over 5-10 for next year. PG is an emergency need. If Self has to go two seasons without pressure defense and a realistic matchup for a 6-2 opposing PG, he will infarct, or retire.

  • @jaybate 1.0 I think you are right, also agree on selden being a little slow-footed. He’s a big 2, load-wise.

  • @Crimsonorblue22 Wow. I never thought of Selden as slow footed. I think he is still trying to figure things out. I’ll watch more carefully now that you brought it up.

  • @jaybate 1.0 So do you think that Lyle is 1) ready to play D-1 point guard, and 2) going to displace senior Tharpe and sophomore Mason? Lyle’s the only guy who is listed as a point guard left, but still more of a combo guy.

    Interested in why you think PG is an “emergency” need? Solely based on size?

    Have faith … Mason has “it.”

    “It” has been on display this season in stretches. “It” will become more the the norm.

    Have faith.

  • @HighEliteMajor

    I agree with you on Mason. Sometime we forget that he has played only handful of games and is still trying to figure out the game at this level.

    Mason is fast and quick but speed for the sake of speed is not always a good thing. I remember freshman Sherron flying to the other end of the court only to find himself trapped on the base line. Senior Sherron played under control with much better results. In time, Mason will learn to plays smart and with his quickness, take advantage of the new contact rules; he might end up being one of the better if not the bets penetrator we have had at KU.

  • @Hawk8086 I’m referring to jaybates lengthy post from jan 2

  • @HighEliteMajor–Without putting too fine a point on it, Naa and Frank are 5-11 in KU inches; that means they are at most 5-10 and more likely 5-9.

    It is perfectly alright to have these guys for the skills they bring. Naa distributes. Frank has an afterburner.

    But, realistically, how are these two ever going to guard long guards?

    They are going to have to play up and under on guys even just 6-2.

    What are these guys going to do against 6-3 Marcus Smart and 6-4 Gary Harris come tournament time. Even Aaron Craft is a legitimate 6-2.

    Neither Naa, nor Frank, can stay on the floor playing up and under against the likes of Smart, Harris, and Craft. They will be fouled up in 2 minutes. So: they will have to lay way off and that is why we have no pressure on the perimeter and no disruption either.

    We need a 6-2 to 6-3 point guard to play in those match-ups, not necessarily to muscle, but to have long enough legs to pressure on defense and then make a long enough drop step to keep up with these guys.

    I have not seen Lyle, or Rashad, play, so I cannot comment on whether or not they can be the guy. But it is clear we have to get a combo type, or kiss pressure defense against 6-2+ PGs goodbye for next season, and maybe another, while developing one.

    Selden seemed to me like a guy who could fill such a role for a time. But Selden has not evidenced PG skills, nor PG foot speed so far. Plus, if Selden has to rotate onto Smart, then that leave Naa and Frank playing up and under on 6-4 to 6-6 2 guards. Or else your ball handling drops way off with guys like Greene and White.

    Frankamp at 6-0 in KU inches is not a solution either. He is 5-11 almost for sure.

    Travis Ford tried playing in the Big 12 with a pair of pony guards and no credible 6-2 to 6-3 backup PG a couple years ago. What he learned was you could upset a team occasionally, but mostly you got your butt kicked. He apparently disliked guards he could make eye contact with so much that he went out and got Marcus Smart.

    Self has to find at least a 6-2 defensive specialist that can handle the ball to afford Naa and Frank.

    It is not a knock on Naa and Frank.

    It is match-up issue that has to be addressed.

  • @jaybate 1.0 somebody has to guard Phil Forte, Appling kid and pretty sure Ohio State has another small guard, Sutton maybe?? I also believe if we go Tharpe and Mason, the other team has to adjust to our quickness. I do agree we need to bring in another pt. Who gets the call on Smart? Who will Smart guard? I’m thinking w/loss of depth for OSU they will be concerned w/foul trouble??

  • @jaybate 1.0 I would of course prefer a 6’4" point guard. But I might suggest that your are overvaluing a few inches there. Against certain teams, you might not be able to get away with both of them on the floor together. But for whatever it’s worth, Louisville had two below 6’0" guys at that 1 and 2 spots and won the title (Siva and Smith). I’m not comparing Mason/Tharpe to those two.

    Your question: “But, realistically, how are these two ever going to guard long guards?” I think you know the answer. They’ll just have to survive. Much like the 6’8" guy in the post deals with Embiid. Or a Russ Smith, for example, might guard a Wayne Selden. They survive. They use their assets to compensate for what they are lacking. An undersized PG has to anticipate, has to use better angles, has to close out better, and has to be more fundamentally sound. But it ain’t perfect.

    And the defensive game plan incorporates strategies to help, just like it might in the post.

    Brady Morningstar was a good defender. Why? Did he physically overwhelm? No. He just knew what he was doing. That’s what the shorter guy has to do.

    I do see an excellent defender in Frank Mason. He ain’t there yet, but he’s getting there.

    Don’t forget, as well, that the bigger guy has to guard a Frank Mason on the other end of the court. That’s part of the equation. And most teams won’t be all big and long. Again, I’d rather have the TT type body (height/length – a nightmare to play against). But all’s not lost if we don’t have the perfect physical specimen. There’s no dressing up your “disruption” point, though. I don’t think Tharpe or CF will ever excel at that. Mason might. But again, time.

    ****And note, I did not say Brady was an excellent defender. A good defender, yes. I have my limits.

  • @jaybate 1.0 Sherron did us right good and he wasn’t much over 5’10. Mason seems in many ways, like a young Sherron.

  • The quality of this thread is unreal! I’m in total awe and appreciation of all you guys! There are so many great posts in here it is hard to know where to start!

    @HighEliteMajor - on our conversation about 4s and 5s. I hear you. And I’ve always been on the fence about whether I like two good sized 4s over having a 4 and a 5. I used to prefer two 4s, thinking we would have a better fastbreak team. But of recent, there are better 5s who can run the floor. What I’ve seen from Embiid… man… I’d take a million guys like him! He can run the floor, block shots, snag rebounds… and the best thing; he may end up having the best outlet passing off of rebounds the college game has ever seen!

    What Self needs to focus on is taking advantage of his outlet passing! We may not develop all the TOs to help us run in the open court, but we can offset that by taking advantage of Embiid’s awesome outlet passing! We need to have at least one of our perimeter guys taking off to our goal the second opposing teams shoot. Not maybe every time, but if we do it sometimes and we make points off of it, we then start freaking out our opponents and create problems for them running smooth offense because they have to think about us scoring off the rebound break!

    @Crimsonorblue22 - I’m replying off of your comment about BMac crying after signing. That really touched me, too. It’s impossible to not have a soft spot for BMac. He is a “what you see is what you get” kind of guy, and you can see that he’s had a challenging life. I’ll always pull for him… his game at the next level and his ability to manage the money he is earning. I hope he can handle the challenges it all poses to anyone, let alone a kid who had to come up through the ranks and earn every spot along the way. Stories like BMac are what attract me to college basketball… far more than the high-flying windmill dunks! I like the highlights, but I rarely catch ESPN because too much eye-candy spoils my attitude for the game.

    Concerning your animosity towards Marshall at WSU… the best way to deal with it all is to play them. I’d also like to play Kentucky every year! It all just sucks us in to the game more!

    I totally loved watching that OSU/Mizzou Cotton Bowl last night. I was screaming for OSU, and was digging that game because I hate Mizzou. It was an awesome game until that last interception. Then it was a race for me and the remote control to turn away from watching the Mizzou celebration!

    Anyways… I’m sure we would drop one here and there to the Shockers… but we would also win 4, 5 or maybe 10 in between those loses! That’s a good ratio of serious buzz to trade for the occasional let down! Bring on the Shockers! What if we were playing them instead of SDSU tomorrow? We could be the team that hands them their first loss! Wouldn’t that give you a nice lift right before we start B12 basketball?!

    Last… man… I hope we land Turner! That guy has tremendous potential, is a solid person, and he’s still growing! Could he be the next Ralph Sampson?

  • @drgnslayr

    I also watched the OSU-MU game. Was it just me or did it look like several plays that could have been reviewed and would have favored OSU were not reviewed, particularly the pass interference towards the end of the game that would have given OSU a first down? On the other hand, every play that could have helped MU was reviewed and ruled in favor of MU, including calling an OSU TD back.

    Maybe it is just my anti-MU bias, but the refereeing seemed one- sided; they indicated that it was the head ref. last game. Looks like our neighbors to the East have learned from their new SEC brethren how to grease a few palms 🙂

  • @JayHawkFanToo agree about those reviews last pm!

  • @drgnslayr my animosity for Marshall is all on him, not their team or WSU. I live close to Wichita, so I see him on tv all the time, and even before the chicken hawk comments, I just couldn’t like him. It’s just that whiny attitude or a sixth sense I have. My sons friend, who’s a D-1 asst coach, said Marshall is not respected by other coaches. Whether we play them or not, I respect coach Self’s decision. I’d love to shut that guy up and beat them, but I stand by Self! On another note, who do you think will guard Smart and who will he guard?

  • @Crimsonorblue22 I would like to see Wayne guarding Smart as their bodies are similar. Watching the pussycats beat them today, I believe that our bigs, ie Joel, Tarik and Jamari, are going to give OSU lots of problems. They don’t have anybody of size in the paint. OSU losing today is a plus for us.

  • @RockChalkinTexas I was thinking the same, who do you think Smart will guard? I saw him on Spradling some. Was switching back and forth from chiefs game-which I’m sick about! Does Phil Forte just play out his you-know what when he plays us? My only concern about this game is, didn’t this play out the same way last year? I’m not sharing w/kstate this year!!! Our bigs should have a field day, OSU has no depth and fouls will kill them! Thanks for your insight.

  • @HighEliteMajor–There are exceptional short guards like the Louisville duo and Sherron Collins. But those kinds of guards are almost as rare as great 6-4 guards. We haven’t seen another Sherron since Sherron and we had not seen a Sherron before Sherron.

    We are talking about Naa and Frank and these guys as you have long noted are rather far down in the rankings of PGs and second, third, fourth, fifth choice types of PGs.

    I am not against carrying ponies for match ups with ponies. I am against NOT having at least one 6-2 to 6-3 guard for matching up with long PGs. It would be a little foolish not to sign a long PG, even if a combo type, for matching up with long PGs, if only for a handful of games, usually 1-2 in the Madness.

    I am not quite sure what our difference is here.

    You don’t want to sign Lyle, or Rashad, because they might not be ideal long PGs that could be signed the following season. Your assumption seems to be that signing them would preclude us from landing a more ideal PG next year.

    I am saying a long combo is always handy to have around for match up issues and carrying three ponies–Naa, Frank and Conner–without a combo ignores the match-up issues.

    Self has to sign one of those two, or pick up one of his weird, unforeseen guys he seems to scrounge up for such situations. A stretch Frank if you will.

    I don’t see any down side to signing a combo next season.

    Bottom line with Adidas feeling froggy, we are going to land an OAD PG regardless of how many tall and short guards we have around, whenever they eventually have one in their stable.

    IMHO, this is no longer like the old days when a big back log of players at a position discourages an OAD. Self appears committed to letting OADs play regardless of who was there before them.

    Selden and Wiggins are the new models.

    Oubre is going to be the same.

    Selden and Wiggins play to get ready for the Madness until they stink the floor up so badly that someone else gets a look and then only a short look unless they do superbly well.

    It follows indirectly then that if they are going to play regardless of who is ahead of them, then there is no reason not to stock the cupboard full with guys like jaQuan, or Rashad, if they can help you even a little for a year. If you sign one, and he decides to transfer because you sign an OAD to take his PT, then you still have all the ponies. And if you lose one of the ponies, well, then you have the match-up covered and still have two ponies.

    I wish college basketball had not moved this direction, but it did. The ShoeCos apparently decide where the OADs will play, not the players. Apparently, the coaches that sign up with the OAD program get fed the OADs when they are available, not when they want them. And not even which one might be best for their program’s slots. I doubt Self could not have said no to Wiggins and ever gotten another OAD from the Adidas conveyor. Self is under contract with Adidas. KU is under contract with Adidas. When Adidas decides an OAD is a viable property, and they want him at KU, then Self has to take them and he has to play them; that appears to be the deal. If it weren’t the deal, then Wiggins and Selden would almost certainly not be starting from the beginning. Neither guy has been ready to start from the beginning. They have been being started, because that is the system now.

    OADs have to play immediately, unless injured. They have to keep playing unless injured. And they have to play at the end unless injured. The only allowance is that another, more experienced player, like Ellis, is still allowed to lead the team in scoring and minutes played in order to try and ensure the Ws that are necessary to get the OADs into the Madness and advance them to a level of sufficient promotion.

    A fall out of this is that there is no reason not to sign Jaquan, or Rashad to fill a hole, whether or not they fill it perfectly, and whether or not they will try to jump to the L, or transfer.

    Jaquan and Rashad and their advisors almost have to know that the OADs backed by the ShoeCos drive the car. If an OAD PG comes along and Adidas shunts him to Self, then he is coming and playing. Period.

    If Jaquan, or Rasahad, are OADs, then they will play regardless. And Self will have to take them if they are shunted to him.

    If Jaquan and/or Rashad are not OADs already hand picked by the ShoeCos as such, then they have to reason that no matter what they do in college, they are not going to be an OAD their first season. It is no longer a free market. There is a system–a conveyor belt. Everyone, coaches, players, media, NBA has to fit in around and accommodate it.

    Not much need to suck up massively to an OAD as a media person. No matter whether you do, or don’t, you have the access forced on you for one year and you’ve got to hype him for one year. If you don’t, your access is likely cut off no matter how much you suck up.

    For a metaphor, consider the OADs the parameter and all the other players the variables. What teams and coaches can expect to do are essentially regressions of variables around OAD parameters.

    Self won’t purposely over recruit in order to have to later force out a player. But he will recruit to fill any variable he needs and he will force out anyone that does not want to red shirt, if an OAD comes down the conveyor belt making it necessary subsequently.

    At least that is how I read what we are watching unfold recently.

    So: no, in the old days, I doubt you sign Jaquan, but you might sign Rashad based on talent, and wait for next year to see if you can get lucky for a classic PG.

    But in the new days, Self probably already knows what the Adidas OAD conveyor is going to force feed him the next two years. And if there is a surprise OAD, he has to take him too.

    Self is just recruiting the variables and the variables in stepwise regression are always subject to change–to being added to and subtracted from–depending on what the R-square dictates given the OAD parameters.

    Its life in the OAD era, until some coach, or player, finds a way around it.

    Self proved he was so flipping good he could win 84% of his games without joining the OAD program. He proved he could win a ring before the OAD conveyor was basically institutionalized. But once it was institutionalized, and once his career hit the tipping point and he began the latter phase of his career, he apparently looked at things, said its been a good ride, but I’ve got to get another ring or two to really leave the legacy I would like. He apparently looked hard at the UK-KU final game experience a couple years ago. He had the best five he could ever hope to put together in the OAD conveyor era. He knew he could coach circles around Cal. But Cal had the thoroughbreds in numbers he could never hope to match. Self tried the old way and that Final game was the writing on the wall. He apparently decided to go along to get along. In an earlier age, Wooden did too eventually. Dean did too. Knight refused to go along. They broke him to Texas Tech. Self probably got chills thinking about what happened to Knight. Coach K apparently went along from the beginning. Self must have thought something like, “if Adidas ever decides to get serious about the OAD thing, then I’m not letting any grass grow under my feet. I’m going along to get along. I know I’m the best coach of my generation. My numbers prove it. Its time to quit being prudish and go along with the tides of the game, or have them break on me and its over not when I say so, but when they say so.”

    Self has FU money now. IMHO he is probably hanging on for one reason and one reason only. I don’t think he gives a tinkerer’s damn about the NBA for himself. What does he need that for, except for maybe one quick check at the end. Self has to do what every other coach with a son has to do. He’s got to find his kid a spot in the profession before he hangs up the whistle. he doesn’t have to make him great, just make sure he gets a shot if his kid wants one. Right now, Tyler is still probably too young to know for sure what he wants, but he apparently thinks he might want to coach. Self has to stay at the table in order to swing Tyler a start up job good enough for him to leap frog some of the groveling Self had to do early on.

    Does Self want to help Tyler get a college or pro job? that’s the question?

    its hard to know how much Self hates recruiting?

    All college coaches seem to hate it on one level and not on another.

    Those that hate it a lot go to the pros. If Self hates it a lot, then he won’t want Tyler to have to do it. He’ll want to help Tyler get a pro job. The best way to do that is for Self to get a pro job. Once Tyler has one year of pro experience, then I reckon Self is headed to Tahiti.

    This guy has worked HARD!!!

    He doesn’t need the NBA money and ring to make him happy.

    He seems a gregarious fun loving guy with or without the game.

    Once Tyler is on someone else’s staff, then Self and Cin ride off into the sunset. They played the game and won. Think next. Retirement.

    Given this broad umbrella description of Self, is he going to hesitate a second about signing jaquan, or Rashad, because they are not the perfect PG needed, but still at least give him a long guard for a few match ups, when necessary?

    IMHO, Yup.

    Adidas will take care of the OAD PG when they get one and put him on the conveyor marked Self.

    Or so my opining and speculations about appearances or the game today lead me to suspect.

    (Note: as usual, all of the above is opining and speculation. I have no insider knowledge about the ShoeCos, or about Coach Self, or any player or recruits mentioned. Its all just how it appears from the outside looking in.)

  • Maybe @jaybate is Kurtis Townsend? I’ve never seen them together…hmmmm…

  • @VailHawk - Hmmm… like Batman. Which one wears the cape?

    @Crimsonorblue22 - I hear you on the whineyness of Marshall. You can only wonder how much cheese he must consume!

    @JayHawkFanToo - I second that! The biggest rip call was that pick6 called back. Seemed like the flag didn’t come out until the guy was in the end zone. That was the game right there…

    Did you notice that Mauk QB for MU… over on the sidelines swallowing down 4 sets of pills? I’m sure it was just ginseng or vitamins… yeah… right! If I was working night shift at a convenience store and that dude (with his constricted, bloodshot pupils) entered my store, I’d slip down one hand on the sawed-off double-barrel 12-guage shotgun!

    What does the NCAA rulebook say about players on the sidelines pumping down MDMA, Adderall and black beauties?

  • @drgnslayr

    Even my son-in-law who is a huge MU fan thought some of the calls were…shall we say strange?

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