jayballer54 last edited by jayballer54
Well so it begins- - -the Diallo era. I tell you what, & yes it was Loyola & I am keeping that in perspective, but you can see the kid is going to help our team tremendously, he for sure has the talent, just gonna take time, but like Coach Self has said & Wayne said we just went from fast- - -to faster. Love how this team gets up and down the floor. We kinda slept walked through the 1st half last night, but I have to say and yes it was Loyola but still have to say AT TIMES guys this team looks REALLY scary, I mean really really good, they show some flashes and you sit back or at least I do and say DAM. Here is something I’m am looking at that leads me to believe- - - -COULD this be our year, a real legit chance for the NC? I fully believe so, my logic and or reasoning for this guys alot is that we are soooo deep, we have or can have so many different combinations, true there are some that although may not be studs, they are or can play key role spots at various times. I mean seriously, our 5 spot is deep, real deep, ya for sure we have guys that aren’t gonna do a lot- - - but they don’t have to, but with the depth at the 5 we can really be aggressive at the defensive and offensive ends not worry a lot about the fouls especially on the defensive ends, lets look at it. Obviously on the higher end We have Cheick- - We have Bragg , & we have Diallo & he showed last night that he changes things in the lane defensively, blocks some shots, rebounds, and can score some, we don’t need huge numbers scoring but can score some and RUNS- - Then there is Carlton , who can score some, & Rebound, so we have them, then for spot minutes we Have Mickelson, who can get some rebounds, block some shots, then Jamari, can spell some minutes , brings that energy, rebounds some, scores a little again we don’t really need the points just rebound and bring the energy, then we have Lucas, who brings some size- - some bulk gets some rebounds. My personal rotation would be Diallo/Bragg or Bragg/Diallo then Mickelson , then Traylor- - then Lucas play by committee, with majority of minutes going to Diallo/Bragg and the others back up quality minutes. Then if Wayne continues to play at this pace, this mind set which I’m beginning to believe he is finally getting it, he looks so much more relaxed, making some better decisions, yes true he does still have some times when he forgets to turn the light on but looking much better, more relaxed, some better decisions passing, seems more aggressive, then we have to look at Svi, love how he is just not settling for the 3 ball , love how he is aggressive and taking the ball to the hole, playing decent defense , Then you’ve got Greene if he can get some things straightened out just another weapon , With him and Svi 3pt add Devonte and Frank handling and dishing on top of being able to also get some points, The you always have LaGerald I mean Dam petty good athlete just gotta fight for a few minutes, but his time is coming & he can still spell relief if & when needed. Just so many combinations- - - -Soooo deep , like the announcers were saying how you gonna par the rotation, they all can do something , some more then others , for sure - - but still they all bring something, I feel and have heard others say hell don’t see ALOT of drop off form the starting five to the 2nd five, again there are flashes- - spurts- - signs that THIS team is special , or has the make up of something really special, Depth , Experience , Rim protection , 3 pt shooters , Ball handlers , time will tell who knows what we have before us- - Enjoy the ride my friends , I believe this could be a very fun year . ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
rocketdog last edited by
@jayballer54 Pretty good take on the game and potential of Diallo taking this team to a final four. Hard to not be excited now that he’s here and looks ready - really ready!
HawkInMizery last edited by
The realist in me says to temper my expectations so as to not get disappointed but man it’s hard to not come away from that game feeling really good about our potential to cut down multiple nets come the tournaments. This team has all of the tools and if they play every game like they did the second half yesterday they can beat anyone on any day.
wrwlumpy last edited by wrwlumpy
Actually there were a lot of minutes given to the two McDonald All-American Freshmen last night and the lob from Bragg to Diallo looked like something we’ll see a lot more of this year.
5541 james last edited by 5541 james
I agree we do have some really solid depth, but did I miss the ELLIS part of different player rotations in your post ? I think we should move perry over to the 3. He has struggled his whole career at KU vs taller players.
So we move our 2nd leading scorer right now into the position our current leading scorer plays and disrupt the 3 guard lineup we are running?? That makes no sense…
@5541-james agree, I have said multiple times how Perry struggles against length- - needs to be able to pull away from the basket more, but has to work on the defensive end more also if he is going to play the 3, Still love the guy, a very soild 4 year player for us, but again with you 100 % he really struggles against the length. ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
@5541-james also I think that yes Perry is part of the rotation, that’s where I was saying some many different combinations, and that includes Perry playing more at the 3. ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
I think Ellis can be a perfect stretch-4 in college, and if he took his man out to the 3pt line, that opens things up for dribble-drive by Frank, Graham, Selden.
I personally think Ellis could take most opposing 4s off the dribble from the perimeter. He’s simply got to go to other versatility when he cant score over length. Plus, if pro scouts see him with a good 3% and also a dribble-drive, then he becomes a real threat from out there. Not just classic post moves scorer. He is a tweener for sure.
@ralster Not sure what game it was but KU ran a 4 man weave with Perry and one line post. Perry got a dribble drive to score and opened up either Wayne or Frank for an open look outside.
Now if he could dish back out when he drives from the 3pt line as he drags someone else’s man with him cause he’s burned his man that would really open up the offense. Diallos man won’t be able to help.
Crimsonorblue22 last edited by
@ralster and coach made that change w/Perry 2nd half, much better!
justanotherfan last edited by
Perry should play the 4, but when guarded by length, he should step away from the basket and use his quickness and ball handling to beat his man. Perry also needs to become a facilitator against length. He makes it too easy when he is being guarded because he rarely passes out of the post once he starts an offensive move. This makes it easier to time his shot because you aren’t concerned about the kick out pass. On his career, Perry has 103 assists in 112 career games. If he can become a bit more of a passing threat, that will change the timing inside and may actually make him a bit more efficient as an interior scorer.
Perry didn’t have a good game, scored 15 pts and grabbed 6 rebounds in 20 minutes. The team looked its absolute worst when Wayne was moved to the 2.
@BeddieKU23 Agree 100%. Let’s leave Perry where he is.
How about that Graham to Mason to Wayne fast break off the made basket?! Wayne gets the points, Frank the assist, but Devonte made the play! There is a reason those guys are getting 30 min a game.
I’m worried where BG is going to fit in after his 6 games. Especially with Svi showing some ability to drive to go along with his tre gun.
@HawkInMizery Bring on Kentucky!
HawkInMizery last edited by
@DinarHawk I can’t wait for the game! IT’s been a long time since Kentucky was in our house. I really want to be at that game. Should be a good preview of how well we’ve progressed from now until then and what we can expect come March.
Perry is playing with a bruised hip, him missing those bunnies and looking less athletic bother me some but it was just an off night at least in the 1st half. Good thing we got Diallo to play more minutes right now until Perry is fully healthy.
That play by Graham to Mason to Wayne is one of the top 3 plays of the season so far. Absolutely a play of beauty.
@benshawks08 I’m with you on BG, if I were him I would be worried even more now about minutes. I am som impressed that Svi is now, not just settling to be a 3 pt shooter, I think he is maturing some and learning that he can be aggressive and take the ball to the rim. A lot of the defenders have a tendency to want to close out tight, which in turn will allow him to drive, because of the over play. The best scenario for BG is come back with his head on straight, he could be so huge for us, accept your minutes play as part of the team, after all it is a team game, he can be such another big piece to the puzzle for us, but he needs to work together with the others, but ya with the way SVI is playing could mean trouble for BG. ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
5541 james last edited by
@BeddieKU23 Well I guess when you put it that way lol… my thought process was bring in graham off the bench, and start mason, seldon, Ellis, then any combo you like up front. I like Mickelson and Bragg right now. These are just thoughts I’ve had about where Ellis could help us the most because against length, he has struggled. I’m guessing the problem for him at the 3 would be can he keep a slasher type 3 in front of him ?
@5541-james and could Wayne at the 2 keep up the ridiculous assist/turnover ratio Frank and Devonte are putting up right now. Plus Perry at the three would likely reduce the tempo we are currently playing with. We are cooking right now. If it ain’t broke don’t fix it!
Red.Rooster last edited by Red.Rooster
As far as Cutting Down the nets and ending up with the NC … I would caution you … as I think our weakest link now is our Head Coach. Yes, he can recruit, wine & dine parents, talk a good story, sell the KU Story, is the BEST B12 Coach, but NOT the best Final 4 coach.
As I commented on another Post previously, Self gets ALL flustered, emotional, red faced at the end of tight games. He, mentally loses control of himself which makes me think that I’m NOT convinced that he can coach “end of game situations.” He gets flushed, tight, and I think that carries over to his players. They all tighten up too!
I seen it to many times to say that KU is a lock for a NC !!
@Red.Rooster I was ready to disagree when you said Self was the weak link but your reason and evidence are both valid. He looks tight in March and his teams have a tendency to play tight in March. I’m hoping these guys will have enough swagger and toughness accrued over the course of the season to be immune to his big game jitters when the time comes. He has quality leadership and experience this year to be able to let them play a little more this year without his influence dominating their psyche. At this point it’s on Wayne and Frank and maybe Devonte to take charge of this teams mentality.
KUSTEVE last edited by
@Red.Rooster We used to say the same thing about Roy.
@KUSTEVE It’s almost like winning in the tournament every year is hard or something. No matter who you are!
Self in 2008 seemed ok on the sideline vs Memphis… Or was it all Sherron, Mario, and Shady? But if it was the players, then they didn’t seem tight because of coach on the sideline, did they?
Self didn’t seem flustered during the 2012 Champ Game run, either.
Nor did he vs Michigan in the Elite8, despite that being a last 3min team-fail.
What would we say about Coach K not making the Final 4 for 9 yrs straight? The fact that he has come back and won the NC makes my point. Duke has had 1st and 2nd round Tourney exits also. Clearly they had a flawed team for those seasons. Remember Mercer?
What does Self himself say? “Getting the team to come together and play as efficiently & consistently as possible by the end of the season is what you hope for. Once you get to the Final 4, anything can happen.” (Notice how many statistical subcategories are concompassed in the phrase ‘efficiently and consistently’. Turnovers, A/T ratio, FT%, 3%, defensive efficiency, FG%. These numbers tell the story of a given year’s team.)
Know this, defensively KU sucked the last 2 years (relative to other Self rosters). Couldn’t stop people. Midmajors like Stanford, WSU. Then there’s the 1 game failings of all the little things Self teams are usually good at, such as rbds, and defense…but we get away from our identity 1 time, and we get sent packing (UNI and VCU for sure). Each of these Tourney bounces has very specific tale of the tape. And they are not all the same. WSU and Stanford losses were markedly different losses compared to VCU, for example.
Hard to oversimplify something that is a complex phenomenon, other than, of course, the end result of KU getting bounced outta the Tourney.
Best summary: go back and look at the gamefilm for WSU and for Stanford–> Was our problem in that game(s) a recurring theme most of the season, or an uncharacteristic bad day? WSU and Stanford had recurring themes to what we saw all season. It wasn’t a surprise. Perry cant score over bigs, our hi-low was weak, and we couldn’t stop the opponent. But was VCU an aberration? YES. We were a solid team, and overall 1-seed, but had enough gaffes in 1 game, that we became beatable in that 1 game. But those MorrisHawks would absolutely wipe the floor (twice) against the KU rosters that lost to Stanford and WSU. Statistically, and in a hypothetical head-to-head matchup.
Moral: not all Tourney bounces are the same.
KUSTEVE last edited by
@ralster We’re simply a much better team than the past 2 years.
@ralster Self definitely seemed flustered and tight in the Davidson game in 2008 and the relief after the win was evident. The Purdue and NC State games were similar though not as blatantly clear as Davidson.
But with that I agree with your overall point that comparing tournament records is not the only way to compare coaches and even if you do Self’s success speaks for itself. I think he is mostly a victim of his own success. We go into every March thinking KU either should win it all or at least have a shot and that just isn’t always the case. Add in the crazy variability of the tournament and you have a recipe for odd looking upsets and disappointed fans.
Izzo I think is the only coach who has noticeably better tournament success than Self since he’s been at KU but I could be wrong. Thought this was an interesting chart: http://www.dbwoerner.com/basketball/coaches/hof.html
That clearly doesn’t take into account seed or show recent trends etc. And it obviously neglects the fact that KU is always in the tournament even on down years where as most other schools just go 0-0 on those.
No argument over your statement with Perry. He has never learned to use the pump-fake effectively or his body to draw contact when playing bigger players. I’m still holding on that when he’s fully healthy he can score against length, sometimes his shot selection seems rushed or forced when he’s adjusting for the bigger players guarding him. But he’s now a legit perimeter threat and still has a good mid-range game that makes it hard to sit him at any point.
HighEliteMajor last edited by HighEliteMajor
@BeddieKU23 You’ll be waiting quite a while, in my opinion. I believe the injury thing is irrelevant to his inability to score over height and/or length as he hasn’t been hurt his entire time at Kansas, of course.
Perry just plays smaller than he his. He crouches down most times on his post moves, he doesn’t elevate, doesn’t shoot at the peak on his post moves, and he doesn’t use his body effectively to help create space. When your best move relates to pivoting, the Withey method is best. Hold your ground, don’t leave your feet, and you’ll still contest the shot effectively.
His best spot is as the 4 in the high spot, so he can shoot, drive to the bucket, and then get a post feed on a quick slide or good matchup. Driving and using the pivot is more effective than from a static spot because the defender’s is moving.
Simply posting Perry up as Self has done many times nets the results we saw vs. Loyola, where, for some reason, the ball doesn’t go in the hole – that reason is that he has a thin margin for error, and when shots are contested, he can have very limited success. There are times where he can have great success on the block. We’ve seen him be successful, but those aren’t the norm.
His field goal percentage at the rim was 58.1%, and this season it’s 57.1%. Not good.
Last season he shot 39.1% from three and he’s over 40% this season, for what it’s worth.
Great player whose value can be maximized better with a guy like Diallo down low (or Mick, for that matter).
But I really disagree with @5541-james on bringing Graham off the bench. Our perimeter guys are our motor, our team plays fast – Self’s decision to start Mason/Graham has been a terrific one, and moving Selden to the three. Speed is going to be our calling card, along with effective shooting. Diallo will just make the speed thing more deadly.
Self has to just keep the pedal down, and not let teams slow us down.
JhawkAlum last edited by
@justanotherfan Remember what ISU did with Withey? I can see Perry do the same type of things that Niang did. We had to take the best shot blocker in the country off the floor!
Crimsonorblue22 last edited by
@JhawkAlum against mizzo too!
drgnslayr last edited by
“Moral: not all Tourney bounces are the same.”
I don’t have the stats on me right now… but I am willing to bet that Wayne had bad games in our March losses.
I still see this as “Wayne’s team.” Not because he is a definite leader… but we seem to sort of go however Wayne goes. For whatever reason, he seems to own the reins on this team… at least when it comes to final score.
drgnslayr last edited by drgnslayr
“Perry just plays smaller than he his. He crouches down most times on his post moves, he doesn’t elevate, doesn’t shoot at the peak on his post moves, and he doesn’t use his body effectively to help create space.”
I’ve said this for 4 years now… Perry needs to spend a summer on an asphalt playground court somewhere… somewhere where the games are tough (if it still exists).
He doesn’t seem to have any understanding about using his body as a shield to create scoring space and also being more effective using the backboard to get his shot off safely.
However… kudos to Perry for using one of his first ever SHOT FAKES in our last game! He used a fake around the FT line, got his defender airborne, and then drove it to the hole for an easy finish.
Shot fakes are one more tool for Perry… he has nurtured the defense long enough by never using them so they can jump freely on all his moves. He should be using a few shot fakes in every game EARLY IN THE GAME so defenders have to second guess his shot. This one factor alone will knock his blocked shots down in half or maybe more.
It is a real pity it takes a guy 4-years of D1 at a blue blood to figure out how to use a shot fake.
Your right I didn’t go into detail about the way he tries to score over length and you have brought out very good points regarding him. I hate to use Niang as an example but he’s an unathletic kid who finds all the ways to get shots off when playing guys bigger and more athletic than him. He uses the pump fake and angles and just is savvy getting buckets. But your right Perry’s margin for error is very small and he is who he is. His % at the rim must improve into the high 60’s as the season goes.
I do think Perry is nursing an injury that is limiting him right now. He really didn’t look to have the same hops against loyola as he did in that jam against Vandy where he beat Jones off the dribble. And his close range shots were not falling, usually some that he makes. He just had a rough 1st half but to me he looked less than 100% on some plays. Maybe I’m overplaying it and hopefully its a none issue.
@drgnslayr You would think that at some point the coaches would tell him that.
Perry should watch some Creighton film of Doug McDermotts play his junior and senior years.
He could post up, use his body to crest space to get a shot off.
He could play the wing and find the lanes to get open to receive a pass and be open for a jumper without a dribble.
He moved well without the ball to get open. It worked for his game but also drew defenses to him to open up his teammates either in the paint or on the outside.
drgnslayr last edited by
Always makes me wonder how much coaching these kids get on their individual development.
There are time limitations on how much they can be directly coached. But this is something that should run through their walk-ons. Our walk-ons should be helping the other guys work on their individual development in their off time.
justanotherfan last edited by
I think all of you have made great points on Perry Ellis’ ability (or lack thereof) to score against length. But this shouldn’t be a surprise. The first time I watched Perry Ellis play I remarked to a friend of mine that I wasn’t sure how well he would do if he wasn’t the biggest guy on the floor. They asked why. I said simply “he doesn’t dunk enough.”
If you watch his HS videos, notice that even then he’s not up dunking on people, despite playing against smaller guys all the time. Check out these two videos. One is obviously Perry. The other is Ricardo, better known as Rico Gaithers. Notice the difference.
Perry is clearly the more skilled player. He handles the ball better, shows a better shooting touch, higher basketball IQ, etc. But even then, if I had to pick, I’d say that Gaithers had the opportunity to become the better player because he’s clearly the superior athlete.
Gaithers dunks on everyone in that video. He shoots a couple of jumpers and makes one layup. Other than that, its him dunking on anyone and everyone in sight.
Ellis dunks in his video, too, but the dunks aren’t as powerful, and in traffic, he’s content to lay the ball up. Against a 6-6 guy, that’s a nifty looking bucket. Against a 6-10 guy, that’s a blocked shot or an off balance flip.
Perry had a lot of success in high school and it is tough to dominate the way he did in high school, and have the type of success he has had in college (realize, he is a legitimate top level collegiate player) and yet change your game because 5-7 times a year you run into someone much bigger and turn in a 3-11 shooting night. 80% of the time, Perry will do what Perry does because there aren’t many guys that size in college to give him problems.
Perry has every move in the book. His footwork is very good, he handles the ball well, his fundamentals are solid and sound. He has mastered the game below the rim. Against most opponents, that is plenty. But 20% of the time, he needs to go above the rim. He has yet to develop a counter for the biggest opponents. He can get you off balance with fakes and jabs, but if you just stay big, he has yet to counter that. He is a jujutsu do expert on the floor, using his opponents momentum against them at every turn. But what happens when the opponent makes him use his own momentum? Perry is good at the counter, but has not developed the devastating frontal assault or brute force attack.
@justanotherfan But you would think after 3 years he would know to stay outside instead of trying to bang with guys bigger than him. Does Self not tell him this?