Who are THESE guys?

  • I knew before the game even started could easily be or get ugly- - - which it did. So many things, where do I start? # 1 we got absolutely nothing from our backcourt # 3 spots, I don’t want anyone try and to defend Frank, he was nothing last night ya, ya until the vey last he scored a couple of baskets, what happened the rest of the game? Really frustrating Frank, Devonte WAYNE just looked so out of control on their drives to the basket, just flinging shots, forcing shots up, stumbling Ridicilious, Sooooo many forced out of control shots. Everyone keeps talking fools gold- - -sure showed up last night huh? like what 2-15 somewhere right in there, but yet we hear people giving Self crap when he calls it for what it is, you fall in love with it, your gonna die by it. I Agree I just do not get why lucas is in over Mickelson, I mean this guy has had so many point blank shots, and yet continues to miss the question is WHY? WHY do we continue to play him in front of Hunter? Agreed maybe Mickelson not much better, but I do know this he sure the hell can’t be any worse. For sure can’t help you sitting on the pine. Question Perry was absolutely killin them through out most of the game, yet we decide to go away from him, like we only had 4 players on the floor. Another poster on here was knockin Bragg ALREADY about his rebounding like 3 rebounds in 28 minutes or such and asking how could we justify him well here is a question- - - - how many Rebounds does Wayne have at the 3 spot in more then probably double the amount of time Bragg has played at his spot? Wasn’t one of the big reason we moved Wayne to the 3 was to be able to free him up? Take some of the ball handling pressure off him and more ability to create his shot, drive and REBOUND? how many rebounds does he have again please tell me. Bragg was in for I read 11 minutes- - - -took 2 shots, hit 2 shots that’s a better pct then anybody else came to having the entire night, get off the Bragg bashing ALREADY, I mean the kid is a fresh, gonna make Fresh mistakes this early, he has 2 games experience playing against other college kids. Whats the excuse for the Juniors getting beat time after time after time on Defense? whats the Juniors excuse for driving and forcing up crazy ass shots like a bull in a china closet? Northern Colorado is not Michigan State there were people so hyped after the Northern Colorado game well guess what? we stepped up in talent and we saw the results, I agree the weave isn’t cutting it anymore, Coach needs to find some answers, He stated he wasn’t concerned that much about the rebounding- - -we get out rebounded by what like 10 those lead to 2nd opportunities 3rd opportunities, you better be concerned about getting outrebounded. People keep screaming free Diallo, free Diallo, well guess what that’s not happening- - -not anytime soon anyways, so we better find a way to make use of what we got, People say well if we had Diallo, if w had Diallo, well we don’t , not now anyways so we have to go on the assumption that we ARE NOT going to have and get it together, not say when your practicing ok now this is how we will do if Cheick is here. Plus for someone to say that it looks like Frank was hurt, looked like Frank was tired. tired, TIRED? jumpin-gee-hossa-fats it’s only the 2nd game of the season if he is tired already, then that’s poor conditioning on his part, that’s his fault tired?- - - please. he sit on the bench a lot of the 1st half because he and Wayne both had 2 fouls, need to quit making excuses and get it done.

  • @jayballer54

    “Really frustrating Frank, Devonte WAYNE just looked so out of control on their drives to the basket, just flinging shots, forcing shots up, stumbling Ridicilious, Sooooo many forced out of control shots.”

    Kind of describes what Andrew Wiggins did at Kansas.

    This is the sort of thing that happens to players when they don’t run offense. We can say… “let them play” but without some structure (even if it is minimal), chances are even talented players will choke.

    What made Valentine effective, more than his shot, was his pass. He single-handed beat Kansas. We “attempted” to double-team him and he cut right through our two guys like a buttery knife through a baked potato. Valentine has high basketball IQ, poise and desire. He can’t dribble a ball any better than our guys. He has the right tools, and they played with just enough structure for him to go off.

    Look at our offense (if you want to call it that). I didn’t even recognize that we were running offense. We just put guys out there and must have told them their spot to stand on, and pass the ball around. That isn’t offense.

    Where were the ball screens? Where were the screens away from the ball? Where were guys making sharp cuts? Where was our back door alley-oops? Where were the plays to free up our BG, who in theory is such a great trey slayer.

    We ran nothing.

    I never want to see another Kansas team go abroad for a summer to “gain experience.” What hogwash. Kentucky was full of freshmen and they were a million times more prepared than we were.

    Oh my gosh… we still have to play KENTUCKY!

    Maybe we need to lose to them in our own backyard for guys to be motivated enough to really execute. Or maybe it won’t even matter.

  • @drgnslayr If the whooping they received last year from UK and WSU haven’t motivated them, I don’t know what it will take.

  • @DinarHawk

    Well… it might just take losing 11 games this year.

    That is what it took in '88. We were the team with the most losses ever to win a National Championship!

    Danny had a chip the size of China. In the '88 tournament, he REFUSED to lose!

    As we see from last night… sometimes it just takes one guy with an overwhelming chip to carry his entire team to victory over another team.

    Danny was the example for his teammates, and even though he was the vital piece, it was a team effort. Our guys all stepped up and were fueled by Danny and his chip. So they all ended up playing with a chip and won it all even though they were a huge underdog.

    I think we all (Jayhawk fans, coaches…) have lost sight of what it takes. We just think we can sign enough talent to win it all. That isn’t likely to happen, regardless who we sign. Just ask Oklahoma how that strategy worked!

  • @jayballer54 Offensively & defensively these guys looked just like last season’s squad only not as efficient without as much firepower & D missing Oubre.I believe their ceiling has come down, & even the much more looming query to me is mark to me is this:

    Has Bill Self reached his ceiling?

    I thought about starting another separate thread on this topic but there is more than enough emotional dissention out here already. I’m attempting to remain objective but am seriously beginning to ponder @HighEliteMajor 's “red & blue pill” scenario. Ive accepted the fact Bill hasn’t been able to recruit capable bigs in several years (T Rob, Twins, etc.) now & when you have talented freshman & even sophs, juniors & 5th yr seniors that sit when your team spirals outta control, who does it seem this loss should be credited to? Tip the hat to Izzo & his guys for sure but when BG goes 6-6 in the prior game & is riding the bench under 6 min in this one, how can that be rationalized? I can’t do it. Vick didn’t even see the floor (no surprise) & Wayne struggled tremendously. Vick is extremely athletic & we witnessed hs value in the WUG games with virtually NO practice time in Self ball. Lucas & Traylor combine for very little given the min they played & Mick’s getting 3 min & Bragg 11? Someone has to explain to me why Bill can’t trust his players enough to play them until they have gone through at least 2 damn boot camps & other coaches get stellar performances outta freshmen like Izzo, or Konsonants, or the Squid. I’m beginning to think maybe this show has peaked & is on a downward trend. Somebody smarter than I may have some better insight, about these issues but I’m at seemingly another repetitive juncture of shaking my noggin again hearing over & over & over- “How in the hell did this just happen?” Who has some real answers? Like Self’s team last night with under 6 minutes, I’m really laboring to find many others…RCJH

  • @globaljaybird Vick was out due to a scratched eye, I think it happened in practice yesterday. No basketball for a couple of days per the medical staff.

  • @globaljaybird

    Vick wouldn’t have played yesterday anyway. Get used to it, hes a bench warmer unless an injury occurs.

  • @RockkChalkk Vicks a frosh-the only way he sees the court is absolute necessity by injury to others even if he is healthy…JMO

  • @globaljaybird Vick finished the last game of the WUG due to his D. I think coach would have tried him on valentine last pm.

  • @globaljaybird understand completely, there may be a little weight to what you say about Self hitting his ceiling, now me and it’s just me personally, I tend not to believe that, although I DO FEEL his weave offensive is a thing of the past I have a tendency of more to believe like someone mentioned in another thread I believe that ever since Danny left, then so did our big man advantage leave. Danny was great with working with the big men, not even sure who has that responsibility now, we have things that are just not right. I agree, said it earlier, and had a friend call me since I posted and echoed what I said how the hell does Lucas see the floor more then Mickelson, I just can’t grasp that. Now as far as Vick, he was out of the game anyways, not that he was going to see the floor, but he was out due to injury, had a scratched eye, just really searching for answers, I fully believe we took a step back last night, our experienced players are surpose to be an advantage this year, sure didn’t see it last night, just way to many out of control stumbling crazy drives to the basket , ending up with nowhere to go, nowhere to pass, and then getting your sling swatted back at you. totally drustrated this morning

  • We needed Vick last night, in my opinion. What’s most disconcerting to me are two things.

    One is how inflexible our players seem to be. Perry cannot dish and goes up for shots blindly at times. Wayne had a two-on-one situation late in the game and got his shot blocked (rather than dish to the driving Traylor) because he was boring and predictable in his movements. Watch the replay. He’s easily readable. Wayne has always been like this. He will do things that he think will work without adjusting to the situation. (Heck, many of our players follow this template). Against an effective defense, we wilt. We don’t have the ingenuity to improvise. Our guards will normally pick up the slack, but they played poorly last night.

    The second thing that concerns me is the persistent lack of defense. This is why early in the season I thought Vick would be a key piece. A rim protector would be great, but why can’t we defend the way the Spartans do? It’s a serious problem and one that I think that is again rooted in player deficiencies in awareness and desire.

    I don’t care about Hunter not playing or the lack of threes. The bottom line is that in order to beat a team like Kentucky, we needed to be able to win yesterday without those things. It’s a lesson to the players.

  • @jayballer54 I know the leopard can’t change his spots, but what I just cannot fathom is why no Greene with a one possession game ? WTH ?

  • @globaljaybird I wondered too, someone said he was doing a lot of stretching on bench. Stiff from riding the pine or was he having hip problems again?

  • @globaljaybird

    My guess would be because he had not even been unable to get off a single shot during his previous minutes because he couldn’t create any seperation / space on his own…and that was when MSU was still defending the paint. No way he could have gotten off a quality shot if the Spartans were giving us the paint and over playing the perimeter. Best he could have done was to occupy their attention so that maybe someone else could get one…but no one else could consistently hit one last nite either.

    If we want a KU team to rely on the three point shot as our bread and butter, we will have a lot of games like last nite.

    Our threes tend to fall best when we’ve had success in the paint and the opponent has to choose to guard one or the other.

    We aren’t as good of a three point shooting team when we have to have them in order to win.

  • @SoftballDad2011 Greene doesn’t need much space to get off his shot. They were hounding him, no doubt. Greene did work to get open and was ready for the ball on the wing once when Graham ignored him and instead chucked his second or third brick.

  • @DanR said:

    @SoftballDad2011 Greene doesn’t need much space to get off his shot. They were hounding him, no doubt. Greene did work to get open and was ready for the ball on the wing once when Graham ignored him and instead chucked his second or third brick.

    And last night he showed he can dribble by them when they crowd him, I believe he did it twice in the first half and got to the line both times. If he keeps doing that then they will have to play him straight up and that will give him even more space to get his shot off.

    Svi blew by a defender last night and got into the paint, but once he got there he tried to fade away and left his shot short, with the new rules early in the season take it right at them.

  • @SoftballDad2011 said:

    If we want a KU team to rely on the three point shot as our bread and butter, we will have a lot of games like last nite.

    Nah, I don’t think that’s true. Or at least you can’t use last night as evidence to support your statement because the team only took 15 threes last night and 4 were in the last minute or two as desperation, heavily contested, heaves towards the basket. If you want the three to be an effective part of your offense, you need to take more than 11 of them and you can’t have your best two shooters (Greene and Svi) not take any.

    I mean, Self claims that Greene is the best shooter he has ever coached. That means better than McLemore. KU used to run offense to get Ben open threes all the time. I remember him running back and forth on the baseline around screens to get a open look. So now we have a better shooter than him but don’t fight to find ways to run any plays for him?

  • @RockkChalkk does BG work as hard to get open as Ben Mac? Not saying he doesn’t, he did look a lil more aggressive to me these last few games.

  • @jayballer54 To give a short, not-so-funny reply to your title question: ‘Who are these guys?’

    Well, these guys are the same ones that have given us 2 x 2nd round Tourney losses. Want to change the team, I totally agree about putting in Hunter. The LucasExperiment is done, its failed, time to cut that cord!!!

    Lucas should only come in for a 2min breather-time for someone. That’s it. So no more than 2-3min per game.

    Totally agree with @jayballer54 that we cannot expect Diallo. NCAA has shafted us, too much East Coast Big Money to “allow” a small market team to win the NC. Make us look like a contender by parading Self’s record, but make sure to hamstring us somehow: Selby suspension, McLemore ineligible, Diallo circus. SSDD.

    If Self can pull another 08 out of his tail end somehow, someday, then great.

  • @Crimsonorblue22 I agree, he did look better than usual last game in the limited minutes he had. But to answer your question… Ben had plays designed and run for him with screeners to run off of and use to free himself up. Brannen doesn’t have that. Its comparing apples and oranges. If they ran those same plays for Brannen we might be able to tell if he would work as hard to get open but we don’t so we don’t really know the answer to that.

  • This is largely the same team team as last year except worse at rebounding because they lost theor 2 best rebounders from last year and Diallo can’t play yet.

    Last night, Perry Ellis and Brannen Greene were the only players to have a good game for KU. I know Greene didn’t attempt a FG all game, but he was open a lot and nobody looked for him at all. On the rare occasion he did get the ball, he blew by his defender and actually drew some fouls to take advantage of his FT shooting.

    Frank Mason reverted back to his freshman form of driving and not even thinking about passing. KU had 12 assists on 23 made FG’s while MSU had 20 assists on 28 made FG’s. Valentine had as many assists by himself as KU had as a team.

    KU’s absolute biggest weakness is their inability to get rebounds. MSU was +7 on the glass and had on possession in the middle of the second half where the got 3 offensive rebounds. That was also the moment when MSU seized all the momentum and their comeback started.

    This is not a physical team, and they still don’t have a guy who steps up and leads this team when they really need it. I hope this team doesn’t win the Big 12 title because they are soft and shy away from physical play. This is a finesse team with a coach who doesn’t know how to or doesn’t want to play finesse ball and that square peg is never going to fit into a round hole.

  • @Texas-Hawk-10

    “This is not a physical team…”

    Amen to that!

    This is why we need to focus squarely on Udoka for next year. We need force and size in the paint.

  • @Texas-Hawk-10 said:

    MSU was +7 on the glass and had on possession in the middle of the second half where the got 3 offensive rebounds.

    I believe they got a three on that after a missed three and two missed bunnies. KU had two guys down low trying to get the ball but what I noticed on the replay was Graham, ran out as the shooter, never put a body on him and then didn’t look to see if the ball went in or not and ran down the court to play offense. Leaving the shooter standing there and wide open for kick out and nailing a three.

  • @jayballer54 So far you & I seem to be the only ones willing to go there about HCBS. Since the twins & Trob the well has been PD low if not dry. Also often in the past I’ve referenced Danny & get showered with the Norm this & Self that rhetoric… This thing is starting to quack like a duck & a wounded one at that. Let me say this first; I really like Lucas but his production just ain’t cutting it & think back about our lack of recruiting bigs to recent transfers…KY, Tarik, & now Hunter? Sure hope I’m missing the target here, but I don’t see Bill’s coaching patterns evolving in the least.with the rest of CBB. Losing to Izzo is no disgrace, but we controlled appx 2/3 of that that game handily. then looked like scared rabbits under 10 minutes. Under 5 we looked simply lost. JMO

  • @SoftballDad2011 " We aren’t as good of a three point shooting team when we have to have them in order to win." Profound statement for sure.

    Yet I still wonder & agonize with countless others as to why we cannot do this ? More than half of the teams in CBB actively use 3 - pt strategies while Kansas bangs their head on the wall with snipers waiting in the wings for a call that rarely if ever comes ?

  • @RockkChalkk we were 2 for 10 at one point in the game and as you said we missed several on our last possession.

    I do not believe we are a great three point shooting team when we are hoisting contested shots.

    I do believe we have a number of people who can light it up when they have their feet set and receive a pass.

    I saw several times last nite when BG wanted to hoist a shot but couldn’t because the defense closed out too quickly.

    I believe the three needs to be a viable part or our Arsenal…

    I do not believe we can expect the three to be our saving grace…especially against a team like MSU who is capable of playing solid man-to-man defense.

    Our best success will come from shots that are created as a part of a multi-faceted approach…high-low, dribble drive, etc…when the defense is forced to commit to stopping one attack at the expense of leaving another unguarded.

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