Time to put Venue on the Menu: "touché" Wichita State!
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I have no problem with not scheduling the Shockers as it can only hurt us. No benefit for KU to play them.
Something we might want to consider is the history of the UK Louisville rivalry. I don’t know it well but it seems it might be a similar situation. Seems Denny Crum built one helluva program before UK was willing to play them. So it begs the question of whether the Louisville program seriously benefitted from the UK series? Or did the UK series help build the Louisville program? Anybody want to chime in on this?
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@globaljaybird - Thanks for the links. There were links attached to the “chickenhawk” piece. Here are those links:
The “chickenhawk” piece - http://www2.kusports.com/news/2011/apr/19/will-ku-basketball-team-play-wichita-state-zengers/
Why CS won’t schedule them - http://blogs.kansas.com/lutz/2013/01/29/self-answers-the-wsu-question/
I went online and tried to find Marshall calling us chickenhawks. Couldn’t find it. Went on youtube and found his speech returning from the NIT, you could hear Shocker fans calling out KU… but nothing with Marshall saying “chickenhawks.”
It’s media like the piece from Lutz that boils my blood. It’s part of the opening to the outside world why we won’t play the Shocks. Read that article… We’ve won our last 5 games with the Shocks by an average of 32 points.
Tell me it wouldn’t be entertaining and worthwhile today to beat a team ranked above us by 32!
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Allen fieldhouse is sold out no matter who is in town. So playing the Shocks in two neutral court sites away from Lawrence has a negative impact on the local Lawrence economy.
My parents and sister went to WSU, I went to KU. I have always pulled for the Shockers (I don’t rember 1981 as I was 3), but recently WSU has become increasingly annoying. The coach calling out KU? One final four and Marshall thinks he owns the state. I’m trying to figure this one out. It’s kinda like a chihuahua barking at you as you walk by. Not much substance behind that bark.
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@eastcoasthawk - The UK-UL rivalry goes way back to early college basketball, but rested in dormancy until 1983, when the teams met in the NCAA Tourney, and Denny Crum’s Louisville beat out Joe B. Hall’s Kentucky and went on to lose in the FF to Houston and the “Dream Team.” That sparked up the rivalry enough to create an ongoing game played every year (and is current). Pitino sparked up the rivalry considerably after he became coach at Louisville (previously at Kentucky).
This rivalry is a big deal not only in the State of Kentucky, but all over America. It has been years since I missed this game. I guarantee you that both sides are glad they have this game every year.
The revenue is monstrous… and for KU to use revenue loss as an excuse is ridiculous. We may never quite have the rivalry they have unless WSU can build up to the same level of prestige as Louisville has… but anywhere close would still make it colossal.
Kentucky did not build Louisville basketball (or this rivalry). The rivalry was in complete dormancy when Louisville won it’s first NC in 1980. KU will not build WSU into an elite school. It takes decades of top notch basketball for teams to earn that status, and a single annual rivalry game would not build them into an elite.
Here is a nice link on the Kentucky battle from Time magazine:
Obviously, the publicity extends far beyond simple scheduling of opponents like Towson.
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Bob Lutz is an idiot
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@drgnslayr Id love to see KU and KState do an alternating home and home with Wichita St. It is very possible that the Shockers can step in to replace Mizzou in terms of rivalry. Well, ok not replace. Nothing could ever replace that rivalry, but certainly hold its own rivalry factor with KU and Kstate. Clearly Wich St is a good team and I agree that playing such a good mid major would be excellent practice for KU in terms of getting ready for the NCAA’s. We’ve lost too many times to good mid major teams and this would help us for sure. Not to mention the $$ side that you thought out Drgn. Very well said.
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I don’t root against Wichita State. I sort of root for them. But mark me down for a vote* not* to electively play WSU. I certainly wouldn’t give them a home and home or even a 2 for 1 deal. Absolutely no benefit to playing them at their place. I agree with @dylans point re: lost revenue.
But here’s the bigger picture. Many of you might feel this is reaching a bit - and perhaps it is - but I don’t think it’s that far-fetched. I don’t want KU to play WSU because I think it gives their program a chance for more credibility. I think it helps an in-state D1 program trying to take that next step towards becoming something more than a flash-in-the-pan mid-major. Mid-majors who have sustained some recent success would include programs like VCU or Butler. Then perhaps the next step would be a Gonzaga. The ultimate goal for these mid-majors? Emulate Duke.
The common denominator for these programs are deep runs into the tournament. With WSU’s final four run last year, they can be mentioned in the same sentence as VCU, and maybe Butler. They are making that next step. If they can replicate a deep run and string together multiple years with NCAA bids, they will be able to be in the Gonzaga discussion. Will any of these schools ever be mentioned in the same breath as Duke? Extremely unlikely.
Why does that matter to us at KU? Recruiting. Now don’t get me wrong. I’m not saying it would significantly impact us. But guys like Perry Ellis and Connor Frankamp might more seriously consider staying at home if WSU became a more legitimate program. Why let a program 2 hours down the road try to become the next Gonzaga - a program who does have more than regional recruiting appeal.
Again - perhaps a little far-fetched. But I’m a zealous and jealous KU fan. I don’t want to share any money, attention, prestige or recruits with anyone else in the state. So I say do anything we can to nip this in the bud - which to me means not playing Wichita St.
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I guess we just have to put our feathery tail between our legs and continue to read press like this:
“The Top Basketball Team in Kansas Is a Shocker”
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303932504579256200047711062.html?dsk=y
Every once in a while I take a verbal shot from a Shocker fan. Now I’m getting it from my own family on the Duke side. This story is spreading. I caught a new angle on this from the Duke side that Bill Self doesn’t want to be the next Joe B. Hall. I didn’t understand what he was talking about until further thought.
I’m a basketball fan in general, and as one, I naturally was a fan of Joe B. Hall. He is the father of “Midnight Madness” and without him, I doubt we would have “Late Night in the Phog” because we copied Kentucky on this event. The brainchild came from Hall. He was a soft speaker, but Hall had the guts to call it like it was at Kentucky after proceeding one of his mentors, Adolph Rupp, after his forced retirement. Hall removed his big blue eyewear and let the world know that Rupp was slow to accepting black players at Kentucky. That took big time guts to challenge anything in the Big Blue Nation, and Hall may speak softly but the man carries a serious pair between his legs.
I remember watching that game in '83, when the Kentucky basketball world was turned upside down by Denny Crum and his Cardinals. There was an immediate outcry for Hall’s head on a stick within the hardcore Big Blue fan base. That was a far cry comparison to how Hall was previously respected at UK. Hall was the guy who had resurrected a damaged UK program and brought it back to elite. He retired two years later.
I don’t think Bill Self wants to step into any kind of risk of being the next Joe B. Hall, even though UK fans reflect back positively on Joe B. Hall, and in 2012 Kentucky honored Hall with a statue of him outside the Wildcat Coal Lodge.
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Comparing a game between WSU and KU to the game played between Louisville and UK is apple and orange vs. orange and orange. (WSU isn’t in the same league as the other three)
The Cardinals have won three NCAA championships (1980, 1986, 2013) and have been to 10 Final Fours (6th all time) in 39 NCAA tournament appearances (5th all time) while compiling 70 tournament wins (6th all time).
Kentucky has both the most all-time wins (2119) and the highest all-time winning percentage in the history of college basketball (.761). Kentucky’s all-time record currently stands at 2119–664. Kentucky also leads all schools in total NCAA tournament appearances with 52, is first in NCAA tournament wins with 111, and ranks second to UCLA in NCAA championships with 8.
Kansas has the longest current streak of consecutive NCAA tournament appearances (24), has the 2nd longest current streak of winning seasons (31 with Syracuse having 43), has the most winning seasons in Division I history (95), the most non-losing seasons (.500 or better) in NCAA history (98), the most conference championships in Division I history (56), the most First Team All Americans in Division I history (21), and the most First Team All American Selections in Division I history (29), is third in Division I all-time winning percentage (.721) and is second in Division I all-time wins (2,101).
The Shockers have made ten appearances in the NCAA Tournament, ending in the Final Four twice, the Elite 8 twice, and the Sweet 16 once.
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Nice topic Slry: '81 stung as Valentine was fouled on last second in bound play not called and it still hurts. I had business in the Wich City and the next few years were painful.
I have mixed emotions on this: don’t want to feed or fuel the little brother on the occasional loss. Also don’t want to bring a full house to Sprint for them to split even a minority cut. That said cant’ see need for us to visit their gym even in a lopsided rotation.
With all the logic to not play them, I have a instinct that says, jump ball and play them, we have nothing of value to lose. Give them a shot, make their day, so we lose a few unexpected games, big hoot.
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@Kip_McSmithers love it, nothing to lose, they can’t take what we have away, so play them big deal. I defer to HCBS when he is ready and gets our terms, throw it up.
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@Kip_McSmithers - Louisville only had one NC when their rivalry started again on an annual scheduled basis. The Missouri Tigers have never made the FF… didn’t stop us from having a rivalry and getting tons of national press covering our games.
Saturday, December 28 (2013), at Rupp Arena, UK vs UL, live at 3pm CST on CBS. Give it a watch and maybe you’ll understand that it is time for us to leave our insulated bubble from the Shocks.
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@globaljaybird It’s hard to believe that Yael Abouhalkah (sp?), the guy who wrote that screed, is the same guy who used to write for the UDK in the mid-70s. Yep, a KU guy wrote this. As I recall, he used to write intentionally inflammatory stuff even back then.
I’ve still got mixed feelings about the whole WSU thing. I’d rather let it happen organically…i.e., in the NCAA tournament. That way it’d be at a neutral site.
Then again, maybe if we do schedule the Shockers and clobber them a couple of times, that’d shut 'em up. I remember that UK wouldn’t play us for years after we hung 150 on them…
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I recall Coach Self saying that KU gets $600K every time it plays at AFH. There is no way we get that anywhere else. KU has the highest resale value of any basketball team for its basketball tickets.
Now, playing WSU is the equivalent of a big, fit man (KU) fighting an little guy (WSU). There are two possible outcomes and neither is favorable to the big man. If he beats the little guy he is told he is a bully and he was expected to win any way; the second case, when the little guy beats the big man, the outcome is worse and incredibly embarrassing. As I said before, there is little upside for KU and big upside for WSU, monetary or otherwise.
Also, there are influential KSU alumni that do not want to see the KU-KSU game(s) take a second seat to a potential KU-WSU game.
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I don’t like adding KSU into this picture… now it’s not a real rivalry, it’s a 3-way in-state tourney or something of the sort.
How much money did we make in the Bahamas? I’d say about zero, when you consider the expenses involved and the gigantic 3600 seat “arena.” Our first game didn’t even get major TV coverage. It was bought out by AXS-TV… a body-deodorant outlet! (joke)
If we did this right, the eventual revenue stream would probably fly by any other game we could book anywhere… even the Champions Classic.
If you go to Kentucky, almost every resident in the state owns promo gear from their rivalry… they collect it and do their man caves up with gear from their rivalry. It’s that big.
I’d like to add that excitement to our schedule every year! Plus… I’d like to hang an early loss on the Shocks every year. We’d do it probably 90% of the time…
So are we bullying all these other teams, like Fort Hayes?
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I have always been firmly in the NO bandwagon for playing WSU. There is simply no positive to it.
Look north to Nebraska. Nebraska and Creighton have long played an annual game. Creighton has controlled that series for the last decade or so. That really cuts into the Huskers recruiting, especially with in-state players. Granted, the KU program is miles ahead of NU, but WSU and Creighton were both members of the Valley for a long time. Creighton used their consistent dominance over NU to help build them up regionally, as they always had a win against a major conference team on their resume. That makes a difference.
The other challenge is simply avoiding making WSU a national program. Right now, WSU is a regional program that had a good run. They can’t compete for top national recruits because it’s a waste of their resources. But play KU every year and you give them a marquee game. That game is on national TV (or at least broadcast to a large regional audience. They get highlights in the main portion of SportsCenter. That means a kid in California, or New York, or Philadelphia, Chicago, Houston, Atlanta, Seattle, etc. that has never heard of Wichita State can now be introduced to them. And if a kid is going to leave a place like Philly, NYC, LA, Atlanta, etc to come to Kansas, the difference between Lawrence and Wichita isn’t that distinct.
If we see them in the tourney, go at them. If not, no reason to put them on the national stage.
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Lots of good responses… I’m doing everything I can to play devil’s advocate against a big crowd in here… but I want to see this subject played out at every angle. It makes for a good overall read, regardless of your position on this.
My emotions are in this because I want to see the game every year, it would make interesting basketball. I doubt anyone can deny that. And I don’t like being told we are “scared to play.” The recent needle keeps moving in their favor, and it helps them build momentum and rationale for it to happen.
If anyone else has something new to offer, please post it.
Consider this like getting your annual flu shot.
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I think we look bad nationally for not wanting to play Missouri and WSU. Just sayin!
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Why?
Like the above posters have mentioned, KU sells out all games regardless of opponent. Unless all games are played at Allen Fieldhouse, KU would lose money.
Wichita St is off to an 11-0 start, playing the 86th ranked non-conference schedule in the country, and currently ranked 11th in the AP Poll. They are a good team this season for sure. Are they going to be good in the future? Can they stay consistent? I don’t know, but I suspect not. 1412-1145 (55%) record in their history, and have been to 2 final fours, once in 1965 and then again last season. Scheduling a game with Wichita St might help KU’s tournament resume this season, but most season’s it wouldn’t do much of anything.
I don’t know, I just don’t really see the benefit for Kansas. I couldn’t care less what Wichita St fans are saying, college basketball rankings in December don’t mean anything.
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Bill Self is not Marty McFly getting called a chicken. He will not concede to his anger/annoyance when scheduling next season. No one tells Bill who to play. Begging would’ve been a better place for Marshall to start.
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@KirkIsMyHinrich I assume your why is towards my post. I like exciting games, and year in and year out there was rarely a more exciting game than the Missouri games. I miss that. Yeah, I’m ticked they left, but so what. I’d rather see us play them than Georgetown. It’d be a huge annual game.
As for Wichita St. I’d rather see us play them than Iona or San Diego St. Why? Because it’s exciting. People will talk about it. I don’t care too much for the reasons you gave. We’d lose money? We’ve got plenty I’d guess. If they’re not ranked like you say they may be many years, so what? We play a lot of non-conference teams that aren’t ranked. Why play them instead of Wichita?
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@wissoxfan83 Oh no, my why wasn’t directed at anyone specifically.
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This year we played at CU at UF and UNM at Sprint. Last year at Ohio State and Oregon State at Sprint SLU at Sprint and wash state at Sprint, 11-12 at USC and Davidson at Sprint, 10-11 at Cal Berkeley at Mich and CSU at Sprint, 09-10 at Temple and LaSalle at Sprint, 08-09 at Zona at Mich State and Syracuse at Sprint and UMass at Sprint, 07-08 at USC at Ga Tech at BC and Ohio at Sprint, 06-07 at DePaul at S Carolina and Toledo at Kemper…
It seems we always play at least one game in KC and a few non-con road games which aid in recruiting I presume. I seem to remember HCRW always tried to play a road game in the seniors home town or state.
Anyhoo, we should play WSU!
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@wissoxfan83
Missouri has its best start in years and if you watch the games on TV, the arena is half empty. It is actually embarrassing watching free throws and the seats behind the basket are empty.
If we play them, no question it would be a sellout. Why give them the additional income and exposure considering that when they left, the placed the conference, and by extension KU, in jeopardy?
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@dylans - let’s consider an alternative action to appease WSU.
Bill Self vs Gregg Marshall boxing match.
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@JayHawkFanToo I agree somewhat, but I guess I’m selfish in that I want to watch KU in good games and I think KU-Missouri would be a good game. And if you don’t want them getting the home gate then play it in Kemper every year, just like Missouri and Illinois play in St. Louis every year.
@nuleafjhawk, how about keeping it in the sport and having them play one on one? Full court. In fact since most coaches are former players lets have a national one on one tournament between the coaches. You might have to have age brackets. And you might get to see another NC for Danny.
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@drgnslayr The border war existed because we were in the same conference as MU for many years. Since they bolted and we don’t share a conference anymore we aren’t required to play one another and we’ve all seen how that rivalry has played out. And the only time those games got press was when MU was good as well. Their off years it was just another game to the national media. Just like the kstate games.
WSU hasn’t always been good. They’ve made the NCAAs 4 times since 88. And they’ve only picked up two league crowns during that time. Moral of my story… they’re up and down. And they’re down longer than they are up. Fortunately for them Creighton is now gone so they’ll start winning their league more, or should, so they’ll be talked up more.
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@wissoxfan83 - I’m ambivalent about WSU, but I also have NO desire to play Missouri. They jumped ship ( like the rats they truly are ), why should we play them? They’ve done no favors for us and they’re not in our conference. They don’t exist in my mind. Unless they’re on the tube and I’m rooting for whoever they’re playing.
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I grew up in Wichita and around WSU. I grew up attending basketball and baseball camps. However, I’m mixed about playing WSU. Ever since The Battle of New Orleans, there have been a lot of strange angst that continues to this day between KU and WSU. Just typing that brings back memories. My dental hygenist here in OKC is a WSU grad and she was a cheerleader. I’ve gotten my ear full of how KU is “scared to play WSU.” I just let her talk. She especially rubbed in this last years F4. I respect WSU and hope one day this will work out either way.
I don’t care either way at this point. I just hope that whatever happens, it will be completely justified and the game is played for the right reasons. I want it to benefit both programs. I do have some reservations and WSU people need to stop their idle talk about something they obviously are pushing for the wrong reasons. Let’s give this some time. It will happen in due time.
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@drgnslayr …ok…how about this angle: schedule a game against WSU next fall in the first annual “KU invitational” and play the game in Cameroon.
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My final take on it is this is not going to happen until another event happens first.
I only have to look at the UK-UL rivalry to see it. UL finally got their game with UK in March and knocked them out. That created the rage in Kentucky fans to want the game, so they gave it a try, and they’ve never looked back since. Both schools circle this date on their calendar every year and look forward to the game.
It is going to take the same event again. @truehawk93 mentioned the Battle in New Orleans. That came just a bit too soon for WSU because they hadn’t established themselves and was a university smothered with shady donors and scandal.
I can’t believe it took so many posts to bring up the Battle of New Orleans. That was one of our most-painful losses in March, ever. A last-second buzzer-beater taken basically from the bench. I’m trying to think of the guy that nailed it… oh yeah, Mike Jones. I think I punched a hole in the wall.
http://webs.wichita.edu/dt/shockermag/show/dept.asp?_s=124&_d=6
Wow, he still has a VCR!
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@drgnslayr - the article says that Darnell Valentine missed a layup to set up that last shot. Actually, he missed (seemingly) 10 layups. That dude could NOT put the ball in the basket that night.
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I’ve known Darnell since his days in the league. We’d play 1-on-1 for hours. He kicked my a$$ a million times. I could never figure out how a guy could d-up like he could. He’s as good a human being as they come.
He didn’t have a good night in New Orleans, especially on layups that were always second nature to him. Fortunately for Darnell, he has enjoyed an illustrious career after that game that helps put his efforts in basketball into full perspective; he’s a winner, 100%, as a player and man.
His nickname was “thunder thighs” because he had the best developed thighs of any player ever to play the game, and it helped him become the very best defensive guard in the league during his days. KU should contact Darnell and see if he’ll visit this team and show them how to play M2M and stick to the ball handlers. Darnell bent his knees and had the best defensive stance a player can have, and it all made a difference. I like our current team, but none of these guys have a clue what defense is. Darnell wrote the book on guard defense.
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@wissoxfan83 . Kemper??? As many good memories as we have of AFH East, including the 1988 Championship, it is no longer feasible as it is scheduled to be razed in the near future. The place might have been state of the art in the early 70’s when it was deigned and built, but towards the end it was dump in a crappy location.
As far as the Sprint Center, why leave even more money in Missouri that we already do? Any game played at the Sprint Center would have both team splitting the money; KU makes more playing at AFH, where it keeps the bulk of the money.
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@JayHawkFanToo I wrote Kemper reluctantly as I haven’t been back to the Lawrence area since I graduated and I wasn’t even sure if the building still existed!
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@wissoxfan83 . Got to move with times. The Sprint Center has been open for 6 years now; did you not just watch the New Mexico game at Sprint Center?
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Coach Self always does what’s best for KU. He says no and I say no. I saw the last border war game, it was awesome! I’d put money on Self vs Marshall in anything! He’s such a drama queen!
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@JayHawkFanToo I keep up with the times, I just don’t keep up with the arena’s . They’re all so bland and non-descript and all have corporate names I really don’t care to figure out where they’re playing. I did watch the NM game.
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@wissoxfan83 . I respectfully disagree. The Sprint Centre is a very nice arena with a distinct exterior design and excellent visibility from most every seat and the Power and Light District to party, before and after games, right next door; bland is not a name I would use to describe it. KU has been playing there for 6 years including yearly games, Big 12 Tournaments and last year NCAA Regionals. Night and day compared with Kemper arena.
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@JayHawkFanToo-Agree, Kemper was a dump built in the stockyards/railyards from day one. A close friend of mine worked for the inspection service company that x-rayed the welds after the roof caved in, in June of 1979, and over 90% of all welds were bad. That was a 70mph wind & rain storm which flooded the plant I worked in five mi away, but that structure was lucky to still be standing afterwards. KC put almost as much $ into the repair as they did original construction costs, though I’m sure their ins co paid the lions share. Sprint Center is like a Taj Mahal by comparison & houses the CBE HOF which is pretty damn kool IMO. Although Sprint is beautiful from the outside, tic prices are enormous, the parking is archaic, & if you slip up & try to meander in with your pocket knife in your jeans they’re likely to call the goon squad!. I wouldn’t give them mine so took it out & placed it under a doormat & snatched it back when I left. $50 knife & no friggin way I would just donate it.
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@globaljaybird . Security is now that way anywhere you go, be it arenas or airports; an unfortunate consequence of the times we live in.
Parking is not bad, lots of parking lots within a few blocks from the arena, which is typical of most venues located smack in the middle of an urban area. I usually park at the underground parking lot by Allis Plaza and its is just few short blocks; cost is not bad compared to what you pay at venues in other cities. I just wish it would have been built it in the Kansas side, somewhere around College Boulevard or maybe the Legends.
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Parking is simply spread out so much that walking after hours downtown is bad enough even without the nut cases hanging on the fringes. Also Police presence is inadequate for the areas they cover. CC always works for me but I’m not legal on the misery side.
