Did anyone else see this?
About a week and a half ago, I was watching Sports Sunday on KWCH and the panel was discussing how Kansas +2 won the WUG and comparing how good WSU and KU were going to be. To my amazement, good ole’ Jeffrey Parsons thinks WSU will be better. He is probably basing this on last year, but as everyone knows, a lot can happen in a year. Does anyone honestly believe WSU will be better? I guess I have a hard time envisioning that.
@DinarHawk yes, can’t stand that guy! I’m really anxious to see how cf fits in.
KansasComet last edited by
I did not see it. I believe both teams will be solid this upcoming season.
WSU lost Tekele Cotton and Darious Carter and the only significant player they added in addition to their lower ranked freshmen is Frankamp. They have seniors Baker, Vleet and Wessel coming back, so they will have more experience for their 3 players and maybe a little less talent overall.
KU lost Alexander and Oubre. New players Diallo, Bragg and Vick more than compensate for the losses. Greatly improved Selden and Mickelson and hopefully Svi as wel as all the returning players make KU a much improved team and a very deep one as well.
WSU will have team comparable to last year’s and the year after that it will come back to reality when their top 3 players leave. KU will have a significantly better team than last year and also better that WSU.
Texas Hawk 10 last edited by
Most people still have WSU as a top 10-15 team this year so there won’t be much, if any, drop off from last season. KU on the other hand is projected as a top 5 team and serious national title contender by most people this year. Should a rematch happen this year, KU should legitimately be the favorite unlike last year when people who actually pay attention to CBB west of the Mississippi were the only ones not surprised by their win.
From a basketball analytical standpoint, I have no problem praising what Marshall is doing at WSU. His only limitation, is he is not a top-flite recruiter, and never has been. Bill Self, kind of has been a good recruiter, who then got ‘enhanced’ by being at a blue-blood school. But VERY early in his KU tenure, Self did get Rush, Chalmers, Arthur, Jackson (top 50), RussRob, Sherron…before he’d really done anything at KU.
Marshall’s teams play solid ball, but are less spectacular athletically, while Self makes his ranked recruits play solid ball at both ends.
All you saw last season and the year before, was that youth neutralizes a Self team’s tenacity and efficiency, and brings them back down to earth (“beatable”), which is how a solid mid-major like Stanford or WSU can win in any ONE game.
Extrapolating off of ONE game is a damn joke, and a bad one. I like Baker and VanVleet, but I like Mason better than VanVleet, and Baker is great, but we have Selden + Svi + Graham . Not mentioning Vick. Marshall adding some “top70” player, which was billed in Wichita as a top100 prospect. We add those guys as our 2nd or 3rd fallback choices.
On the flip side, I wouldn’t sleep on the WSU bench, as there’s some slender, athletic, and fast dudes on their bench that can shoot and run, and you know Marshall will make them defend.
Honestly I wish CFrankamp well, but he’s got a lot of competition on that WSU bench, we shall see how it goes for him.
Considering the KU bench? Well, there’s 4-5 guys that could start on 99% of Div1 teams, at least this year.
WSU vs KU boils down to recruiting differences, and the ceiling it puts on what either team is capable of executing. Experience is a BIG factor in this, and is usually a mid-major’s foundation. But what happens when you get a Self team, ready to hammer on every aspect of the game, on both ends of the court, yet the roster has several top30 type talent, including several McD’s. Give such guys that magical experience level, and it is about as good as it gets in college bball. Watch what KU does to KY this season.
@ralster think cf will start at 2, 2nd semester? Can he play D to satisfy Marsha?
I think it’s possible that WSU can be better. They routed KU last year and have 3 starters including their 2 best players returning. Plus they have a pair of quality transfers coming in in Frankamp and Anton Grady. Then again in the WUGs ku played with a toughness and a defensive ability that they did not show last year. Here is how I think the starting lineups will compare.
Frank Mason > Fred VanVleet
Devonte Graham < Conner Frankamp
Wayne Selden < Ron Baker
Perry Ellis > Evan Wessel
Cheick Diallo = Anton Grady
The Selden vs Baker matchup is subject to change if Seldens play from Korea carries over to the season, but Baker has proven himself in the college game more than Selden at this point.
Bottom line these teams are fairly evenly matched and arguing for either side cannot be considered rediculous.
@TheDrunkenJhawk cf better than Dg? No way! Cheick better! Bakers tough, but Selden has better gifts, if he uses them.
JayHawkFanToo last edited by JayHawkFanToo
Frankamp better than Devonte? In what planet?
Much like Green, Frankamp is a one trick pony, i.e. a spot up shooter. Devonte is much better at creating his own shot and shot .393 from 2 and .425 from 3 in his freshman year compared to .344 and .313 by Frankamp, also in his Freshman year. Devonte is a better rebounder, passer, dribbler and driver than Frankamp and a couple of inches taller to boot. It’s not even close. Remember that Frankamp left KU because he did not believe he could beat largely unknown Graham…he was right.
The Wayne Selden we saw at the WUG is at least as good or better than Baker and with a much higher ceiling. I am willing to call this one a draw.
How about Anton Grady, a transfer from powerhouse Cleveland State and the powerful Horizon Conference? He will be a good player in the MVC but in the Big 12, or more specifically at KU, he would ride the pine, where Diallo is a projected OAD that was the MVP of two All-Star games. Yes, Grady has more experience and is a decent player but with few games under his belt, Diallo’s aestheticism and skills will easily zoom past Grady.
Bench: KU >>>>> WSU.
Game, set , match.
@JayHawkFanToo you forgot Dg much better defender!
Indeed, thanks for the assist, I was just thinking about the offensive areas which are Frankamp’s forte. Defense is not even close.
jaybate 1.0 last edited by
Much as it irks me to say it, until we beat them (and punch Vleet’s nose out the back of his head), we aren’t better.
They hold bragging rights and serve until we beat them and their scum sucking coach.
For this reason we better hope the NCAA schedules us against them early in March.
I want a piece of them worse than any second rate bunch in a lonnnng time.
Marsha is who Fizzouri ought to hire.
Talk about a match made in Hell!
Marsha would be like having an Antler as coach!
Oh, I want to beat him into a hand shake line and stamp beaten on his high forehead.
Bring me the head of Alfredo Marsha!
It’s almost enough to make me want to waste a scheduling date on him…
But not quite!!!
@jaybate-1.0 that was beautiful!
KUSTEVE last edited by KUSTEVE
@TheDrunkenJhawk Bottom line these teams are fairly evenly matched and arguing for either side cannot be considered rediculous.
Jed Clampett: " I’m going to have to have a long talk with that boy".
( no malice intended ).
KUSTEVE last edited by
Please allow me to elaborate as to why I believe that Frankamp is better than Graham.
Devontés biggest strength is probably his ability to handle and pass the ball well. In the ncaa tourney 2 years ago CF showed that he had the ability to do that just as well as devonte. I believe he had something like 7 assists and 0 turnovers in the 2 ncaa games we played.
Then there is defense. DG is not a bad defender, but I think that Conner is just as good. While being less athletic he is a very crafty defender who always finds a way to stay in front of his man and annoy the cap out of the offense.
Finally there is the matter of scoring. This will be used as the tiebreaker in my analysis. While Graham is a more versatile scorer I believe that Frankamp has the advantage overall for one reason. Both Frankamp and Graham will be forced to play an off-the-ball combo guard position. This favors CF. Graham is more of a point while Frankamp seems to play the 1 and the 2 equally well. He has superior ability to try to run through screens and try to get an open look from three. If both players were going to run the point for their respective teams I would say that Graham is better, but that is not the case. Most of the time they will both be playing the 2.
Lulufulu last edited by
@TheDrunkenJhawk Why would Coach Self let him go then, if he was a better option than Devonte? Stats alone show that Devonte is better all around on both sides of the ball. (Kinda funny that a ball doesnt have sides, but I digress) Back to it, Devonte and Mason will be out on the court together, both of them will be revolving from 1,2 spots making them combo guards, both playing point, initiating offense, etc.
@TheDrunkenJhawk could you have possibly been drunk while watching? Jk! Conner is a great shooter during shooting contests. He’s probably a worse defender then BG. Could you possibly be cf? ( drunken) jk again!
drgnslayr last edited by drgnslayr
WSU will be better… better than they were last year. Their keys, VanVleet and Baker, are great players, but I feel like they are close to reaching their ceiling.
But KU will also be better… MUCH better than they were last year! The closest player we have near his ceiling is Perry, and I’m not expecting him to bring a lot more developed tools to his game this year. All he needs to do is NEVER QUIT in games like he has in past years. When he is having a tough night he just has to continue to take shots and push it to the rim. That should be his big lesson from WUG, and for the entire team. NEVER QUIT!
These should be two teams destined for success in March. Hope we get another chance at the Shocks in March!
I like our chances against the Shocks this time.
Let me say this and I assure you I mean no disrespect, but…are you nuts, drunk or both? Have you actually seen Frankamp and/or Graham play? If you had you would know why Frankamp left…he knew that he could not beat Graham for playing time, and both play the same position.
The only time where Frankamp would have an edge is in a 3-point competition with no one guarding him. I posted the numbers under game time conditions and Graham’s numbers are much better than Frankamp; I would be curious to know on what you base your opinion since the numbers do not support your assertion.
Defense? Not even close, Frankamp is a smart player with high IQ, but when he was on the court, he was the weak link on defense. Devonte is a much better defender than Frankamp.
Let me ask you a question…if you had to select one player between Frankamp and Graham, who would you pick? If you select Frankamp then there is no sense in continuing this discussion since we would be 180 degrees apart, and I believe the great majority of the posters in this forum, who are very familiar with both player, would agree with me.
I see what you did there…wink, wink…
Lulufulu last edited by
@Crimsonorblue22 I think you’re right. DrunkenJhawk is Conner Frankamp!
nuleafjhawk last edited by
@TheDrunkenJhawk My argument: Frankamp WAS a Jayhawk. Graham IS a Jayhawk.
Ding! Ding! Graham wins in a first round knockout!
jaybate 1.0 last edited by jaybate 1.0
Thanks for posting that biblical quote from Ephesians. I had forgotten that one. Those guys that wrote the King James version had a way with words. But the core meaning had its own strength, regardless of translation.
Ephesus, Turkey, man, I still have to go there before my time card is punched as “expired.”
P.S.: Note that Kusadasi is 19 km. away from Ephesus. Could it be that the ancient spelling of Kusasdasi once used more caps?
Were the Ancient Greeks and the Bible trying to tell us something?
KUSTEVE last edited by
@jaybate-1.0 We spend lots of time discussing huge conglomerates with massive power manipulating and corrupting college basketball. In some ways, it is a microcosm of the country and the world we live in. Nice catch on the KUSAdasi name.
jaybate 1.0 last edited by jaybate 1.0
Yes,outside of the actual game action, and strategies, which always thrill and fascinate me, it is the overlap between the institutional and regime processes in sport and in culture/economy/government/private oligarchy that are next most interesting, at least to me.
Once one recognizes sport and entertainment have not infrequently played significant roles In historical transition from insular republic to extroverted private oligarchic dominated empire, what goes on in sport at home and abroad today has interest much beyond Xs and Os to teach us IMHO.
KansasComet last edited by
The ability to step up and be (please excuse me everyone, but I need to get my point across) Mr. Big Nuts and make clutch shots and not turn the ball over in times of crisis are some of the ways guards lead their teams on deep tournament runs. Solid defense, and rebounding are important as well. I think both players are capable. I think Graham is a better defender and rebounder with a very good offensive skill set… I think Frankamp when he is on, can be real dangerous on the offensive end. I still wish we had both.
ParisHawk last edited by ParisHawk
If you want a player that you can fit into Self’s system, Graham trumps Frankamp.
If you want to get the most out of Frankamp, you have to adjust the system more. Self is not great at adjusting his system to fit a player, particularly a fringe rotation guy.
Basketball doesn’t have a DH.
Of the two, I would take Devonte, hands down. However, Frankamp looks to be the kind of player who gives Bill Self’s teams fits in NCAA Tournament play.
A couple of huge IFS: If the seeding committee once again sets up a match between WSU and KU, and if Frankamp’s threes are on target, we had best place our quickest and best defender on him before he hits his second shot from beyond the arc. Otherwise, we lose. Baker and VanFleet are a genuine force, destined to keep the Shockers into most any last minute close contests. When hot, Frankamp would be the DIFFERENCE.
drgnslayr last edited by
My question… WHERE will Conner get his minutes? Their PG and SG is VanVleet and Baker. Move Baker to the 3?
It looks like Conner will have to get mop up minutes left from these two.
Kcmatt7 last edited by
@drgnslayr Tekele Cotton was a SG last year and played 31 minutes a game. So there is definitely minutes up for grabs.
drgnslayr last edited by
I thought Cotton was a SF? I thought Baker was their big minute SG? I know Baker and VanVleet played tons of minutes and they are both out on the perimeter.
Kcmatt7 last edited by
@drgnslayr Cotton was only like 6’3. Baker is definitely the bigger of the 2 guys. Cotton may have been the best defender at the time and guarded other teams 3s. Or he guarded them because they didn’t want Baker in foul trouble. Either way, they can still play Frankamp. I am sure that WSU probably plays a more 3 guard system than a true PG, SG, SF. It makes them more flexible when trying to just get the best recruits possible to come.
Weasel played 4, remember them pitting his good buddy against each other? Cotton played 3, him and oubre. They had a quick back up guard that came off the bench who along w/weasel had the best games of their lives. Weasel didn’t score next game, I think! Cf is going to have to play some D to see the floor, IMO. I’m guessing if Marsha want to start him(2nd) semester, baker goes to 3.
REHawk last edited by REHawk
@drgnslayr Hypothetically, if WSU is playing neck and neck with the Jayhawks going down the stretch, I would look to see Conner enter the game with both VanFleet and Baker. So, Mason/Graham/Selden vs. VanFleet/Frankamp/Baker. Tough call, but I would give the Jayhawks the edge, as Graham can do so many different things. If the back court should become a tie-up, then we have Perry and the “Five Committee” to make the difference. Diallo must learn how to avoid foul troubles, and Mickelson+Lucas must keep-a comin’. (…and I must not forget Bragg!)
bskeet last edited by bskeet
Who is better? KU or WSU?
Fortunately, I have a bit of a mental litmus test I can play with any potential Div 1 competitor this season. Here’s a simple question I ask:
Could they emerge out of pool play at the WUG (one of two teams) and then could they beat Lithuania, Russia and Germany. If the answer is “no” (or in this case, “Hell No!”), then I think KU is better.
@bskeet I gotta concur with you. Those KU victories in the WUG were fantastic. Maybe unusual, at least considering the way that Selden was playing 6 months ago, and the fact that Self had buried Mickelson in the seasonlong fridge. Toss the 4 missing KU players into the 2015-16 mix, and this could be one really fine season for the Jayhawks. I can’t envision WSU winning that WUG series, even if Frankamp shoots 45% from beyond the arc. That said, I think that KU could have won the WUG with Baker and VanFleet as our two extra additions…esp. if VanFleet could have blended with our troops and coaching staff (perhaps a big IF). His blow to Perry in the Tournament probably still rankles with our team and mentor.
“SHOCKED” to see someone postulate that CF is better than Devonte Graham…
Having watched both players play, Devonte Graham HAS everything that Connor Frankamp wishes he had. CF frosh season was THE worst 3 % shooter on the KU team for the season, including his pointless 3s in some Tourney loss (so they don’t matter one iota). DGraham shot 42% from 3 in his frosh season: MARK MY WORDS (just my opinion), BUT DGraham IS MARIO CHALMERS GOOD.
People forget Graham spent an extra year in prep school after h.school Graham is one of the biggest under-radar finds by Bill Self. So was Frank Mason.
On a pure logic point: How can we say CF is better than DG, when CF washed out of KU, couldn’t even cut it at KU? (seems a contradiction to elevate CF, when Self gave him the ultimate demotion!)
@TheDrunkenJhawk “Please allow me to elaborate as to why I believe that Frankamp is better than Graham.”
It’s OK man, no sweat. I still get rip roarin ass drunk myself on occasion, just not nearly as often as when I was younger, hangovers hurt a lot more than they used to.