It appears the WUG boosted our guys stock this summer!
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Mickelson, Selden, and Mason.
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Good info. This link will take you to the beginning where you can select “start slideshow” When you consider that Moore rise was due to his play with KU, it makes it 4 out o12 players from KU or KU connections. Not bad…:)
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Way-Too-Early List of the Top 2015-16 CBB Player of the Year Candidates
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I am starting to get pumped. I think we have a real shot at greatness this year. I know I expect Mason, Graham, Selden, Ellis, and Diallo to kick off games. I think Selden will move to the 2 when ever Svi comes in the game BUT Svi did start last year all the way up until after the first week of December. Svi could shake things up in the rotation. Mickelson did have a really good summer and could start up until some time in December? Its the same 3 that won the gold medal will be the same 3 that carry us in to April 2016.
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Svi is the biggest unknown. He started 6 games last season, same as Alexander. In comparison Traylor started 18 games and Lucas 14. Svi’s minutes decreased as the season went on and he ended up 10th in the team in MPG and only Mickelson, Manning and Self (in the current team) played less minutes.
What position do you see him playing and how much playing time do you expect him to get?
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@JayHawkFanToo He should play the 3 and will pick up some of the minutes Oubre left behind. He could play 15-20 mpg? Graham is a bigger question mark. He missed games his Freshman year with toe problems, then missed the WUG due to another injury. He could have issues again next year and someone will have to be ready if or when it happens.
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@Statmachine I don’t think Devonte is injury prone. He hurt his toe when that big fat Georgetown center stepped on him, and had a partially torn thigh(quad) tendon this summer. I think Devonte will be a star this year - he will be right there with Wayne, Bulldog, and Perry. I think he will be our best clutch shooter from the perimeter, our best ball handler and assist guy, and our leader in steals on the team.
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I’m optimistic about Devonte like you are. He has a great PG skill set plus the absolute PERFECT personality to lead a team!
What really got me rolling with Devonte was when I heard he is a natural BMOC! The guy loves people, and that is what it takes from your PG. A guy who bridges all communication possibilities because he wants to connect to everyone!
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@KUSTEVE partially torn thigh(quad) tendon
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@Crimsonorblue22 there…
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I was reading up on the toe issue he had called turf toe or something of that nature and it is something that can re-occur more easily after the first time! The partially torn quad is another issue that could rear its ugly head again? I hope I am wrong BUT its not out of the possibility.
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I am with @KUSTEVE on this one; I believe this is going to be the season when the basketball world takes notice of Devonte.
As far as Svi, if you have him playing that much at the 3 where do you have Selden playing? No question that the WUG proved that Selden belongs at the 3 where his performance was fantastic, even when at the next level he might end up playing the 2. Keep in mind that Green also plays the 3 and we might also see Vick and Ellis taking turns at the 3…it will be a crowded place.
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With Svi, I think he will flex between the 2 and the 3, with more time at the 2. Ask yourself this question – who are the top three ball handlers on the team? Mason, Graham, and Svi. Not even close. Next question - who are the top three passers on the team? Mason, Graham, and Svi. Easy. And there you go.
Mason and Graham start. Then assume Graham is taken out. Svi in for Graham. Then Graham comes in for Mason. When Mason is ready, Svi is back out. This all fits with the “playing two ball handlers” thing that now seems to predominate Self’s thinking, which is bolstered by its effectiveness at the WUG.
Next, we have Selden at the 3. Who is the most logical replacement when he needs rest or is in foul trouble? That’s where it gets tricky.
And that’s where the pecking order is much more in question.
Option 1 - Play Mason, Graham, and Svi together, with Svi flexing to Selden’s three spot when all three are in the game. Now we have three ball handlers.
Option 2 - Sub Greene in for Selden whenever Selden needs a break. If Greene’s hot, ride the wave.
These are Self’s two options. This assumes Greene to be healthy. I think from game to game, this is what Self will be choosing from. Sure, Vick could surprise and demand playing time. He’ll get time early when Self will play more guys. But when things settle in, the wise money has Vick waiting his turn.
While I love Greene’s game, using Svi over Greene seems to fit more with what I think Self is looking for. If Svi is better shooting the ball, he is easily a better option over Greene in Self’s offense. Svi is just as tall, is quicker, moves better laterally, is a better ball handler, is a better passer, and is better driving the ball to the hoop. Svi is much better in the open floor. Greene is a three point assassin.
I’m betting Svi plays more minutes than Greene. Svi fits better with what Self is trying to do.
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@KUSTEVE what makes you think Devonte becomes a star this year? One more so than Svi? I’m just curious if it is a gut feeling or something you’re seeing and would like to enlighten me on!! Because the current situation I think actually plays more into Svis hands. Devonte has missed most of this summer to develop with his injury. And I would think it will be hard for him to replicate his 40% from 3. Where Svi is the opposite. He has put on a lot of muscle and spent the whole summer in the gym. He shot a horrid 3pt% last year but it is clearly in his arsenal and should improve. I just feel like maybe I’m missing something. A lot of people don’t expect much out of Svi but a ton out of Devonte. like I said, maybe I just need to be enlightened.
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@HighEliteMajor I don’t think Svi spends much time at the 3 this year. Even subbing exclusively for Mason and Graham, that’s probably going to be 20-25 mpg for Svi this year (about 5 mpg subbing for Mason, probably about 15 mpg subbing for Graham, and whatever time all 3 are on the court together). Greene’s probably going to sub exclusively for Selden. I think we’ll also see Svi and Greene together when Self needs more size on the perimeter.
There’s 120 minutes available on the perimeter and 5 guys will get the vast majority of them. Vick will be good, but he currently doesn’t bring anything to the table that KU doesn’t have a better version of with the 5 rotation guys. Mason will probably be around 30 mpg, Selden at 30 mpg, Graham at 25 mpg, Svi at 20, and Greene at 15 mpg. Those minutes are all approximate and could be off by 2-3 mpg on some guys.
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@Kcmatt7 Devonte is quicker, is a better ball handler, better passer, better shooter, better defensively, has quicker hands, and plays with much more confidence than Svi. Now, Svi is taller than Devonte, bigger, and probably much better on the boards, so he does have that going for him. Your assertion that Devonte hasn’t developed this summer due to his injury, imo, isn’t giving Devonte credit for the development he showed in the NCAA tourney. 17 points … 3 treys … 3 assts … 5 steals…1 t.o. in 29 minutes against the Shlockers. 5 steals against that back court is walking in some pretty tall cotton, imo. We don’t have a skill set on our roster that could match what Devonte brings to the table ( other than Frank).
What I loved about the 2008 team was the number of run outs our defense created. Our perimeter defense constantly disrupted other team’s offensive flow, jumping in the passing lanes, deflecting balls away, etc. Devonte’s speed and quick hands gives us a much greater chance to add that element back into our defense/offense.
What I saw with Svi last year was a kid who was trying too hard, and was playing very tight. The stage looked too big for him, where as Devonte nearly instantly fit right in. I hope that Svi puts it all together this year, and gets the confidence part down, because he definitely has all the tools.
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https://instagram.com/p/5PvzEJqiHG/
4th photo I’ve posted of Svi in the weight room this summer.
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@KUSTEVE I like what you’re saying that Devonte. But, Don’t you think that you really need to look more at how he played most of the season over just the one game? Over the last 11 games of the season he had 20 turnovers while averaging 20 minutes a game. Our worst stretch of the season… And not good for our second best ball handler. He does play decent defense, but he only averaged a steal a game. Nothing special. I guess I just see a very average season from him. especially if he hasn’t had a chance this summer to get better at anything. I hope you’re right! I think I’m going to stay on “team Svi” for a breakout player over Devonte though. Just purely on the upside. And the fact that if Svi does, nobody can match up with us.
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this is why HCBS recruited him…
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http://kckingdom.com/2015/06/22/kansas-jayhawks-basketball-expectations-for-sviatoslav-mykhailiuk/
Looks Like some others believe Svi can shake things up. Just because he can play the 2 doesn’t mean he will BUT he defiantly could start along side Mason, and Selden.
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http://kckingdom.com/2015/06/08/kansas-jayhawks-predicting-starters-for-next-season/
Starting line up of Mason, Svi, Selden, Ellis, and Diallo.
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http://www2.kusports.com/news/2015/jul/18/column-look-svi-be-key/
These guys think Svi will play the 2.
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I’ll toss in this quote from the KC Star on July 3:
“The staff as a whole, we feel like playing Frank and Devonte’ together will make us a lot more dangerous offensively,” Townsend said. “We’ll be able to put a lot more pressure on (other teams) because they both can drive it, they both can shoot it, and they’re both pretty good defenders. We definitely talked about that. It’ll free up Wayne a little more, too.”
This was in an article discussion moving Selden to the 3.
Back when I suggested in the spring we start Svi, I felt it was better to have him at the 2 and Selden at the 3. Svi’s a much better ball handler, passer, etc. Svi is much closer to a point guard than Selden. I see where the KC Kingdom link as Selden at the 2, and Svi at the 3.
But the Kansas staff, per Townsend, seem to be looking at a Mason/Graham combo. Regardless, we’ll see a lot of Svi and Graham.
Personally, I’d start Svi at the 2 and bring Graham in off the bench. But I think Self will flip that.
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@Statmachine That’s where I’d like to see Svi as the backup to Graham at the 2. Selden starting at the three backed up by Greene. Mason backed up by Graham at the 1. Down low I hope Diallo is starting soon alongside Ellis.
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@HighEliteMajor Svi has to make Coach trust him first before he starts, or comes off the bench for starters minutes. Not saying he cant do it.
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Svi is not going to sub for Mason; he is not a PG and he has not show that he can be one. 6’-8" PGs are a rarity at any level and I just don’t believe Svi is one of those rare super tall PGs. Svi’s natural position is SG or SF and I will guess that he will play mostly those positions. I do not know how much he has developed in the Summer…I guess none of us knows, but based on what I saw at the end of last season, I would have to say that Devonte was ahead of him.
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That article predicting the starters was written before the WUG and before Devonte’s injury. After the WUG, there is absolutely zero doubt that Selden will start at the SF and not at the SG. The only question is whether Graham or Svi will start at SG. I just don’t see Svi backing Mason since he is not a PG; I do see Graham switching to PG when Svi is in and Mason is resting.
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@JayHawkFanToo You do realize that if Mason and Graham are on the floor together and Svi subs in for Mason, that moves Graham over to PG. So yes, Svi can sub for Mason without Svi being PG.
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Isn’t that what I wrote in my post just above yours?
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@Statmachine Here’s the pull quote from that article:
So it’s time to talk about sophomore Sviatoslav Mykhailiuk. If he can play high-speed basketball well enough to be the guy who can spell both Frank Mason and Devonté Graham, that will enable Wayne Selden to stay at one position.
Unless Devonte is still hurt, Svi isn’t going to start ahead of him.
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@KUSTEVE That is assuming HCBS moves Selden to the wing permanently. As far as size goes Svi is a 3 and could fill the void Oubre left. No one ever said Selden would play all of his minutes at the 3 moving forward. Selden was successful playing the 3 during the WUG and we were missing 4 of our guys and borrowing a couple. HCBS put his best 5 on the floor which doesn’t mean Graham will be better than Selden playing the 2 when the season rolls around. HCBS could go with a taller line up and put Selden right back at the 2 and Svi at the 3. There was a buzz around Seldens play during the WUG and just because he played well doesn’t mean he will stop attacking the basket and hitting 3s because he is labeled a 2. What I saw during the WUG was a coming out party and I believe he can do everything we saw this summer playing the 2 spot (except rebounding). A starting back court of Mason, Selden, and Svi could actually happen.
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@Statmachine I’m just thinking how sweet it is to have all these choices!
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@Statmachine PREACH!!
I mean maybe i’m crazy but in Self’s system I just don’t see much of a difference in the 2 or the 3. Maybe a few times going in for offensive rebounds. But other than that I just don’t see a difference. B Mac is a great example of what a 2 can do in Self’s system. And, like you said, you just saw the light turn on for Selden during the tourney. It wasn’t that he was playing the “3.” He didn’t drop 20 point games because he made that move. He didn’t finish around the basket better because of some allocated number on his position. He did it because he was aggressive, while still letting the game come to him. He can still be aggressive playing the “2.” See Wayne vs Florida. It can be done folks.
I guess my other thoughts are this:
Devonte very may well start and be better than Svi. But, Devonte doesn’t provide a favorable mismatch in my eyes. Svi has the obvious size advantage, and thus creates mismatches we wouldn’t have with Devonte. On top of that, everyone can tell Svi has the “it” factor that Devonte doesn’t have. I can’t envision Graham going off for 25 points at all this season. Svi seems to have that ability. If he puts an early 3 in, **look out! **Then you don’t just have a mismatch. You would have a matchup nightmare. Who guards Svi? Who guards Wayne? Oh wait, Frank just drove in and made a layup again because we can’t help off of anyone right now.
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@Statmachine You’re forgetting how poorly Wayne takes care of the ball, which is why they moved Wayne to the 3 in the first place. We all watched the WUGS. We all saw what happened to Wayne’s game once they moved him to the 3. Wayne isn’t very good handling the ball, which is why Devonte will play the 2.
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@KUSTEVE So moving Selden to the 3 had nothing to do with not having a true 3 to take with us to the WUG?
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How many times have we heard HCBS say Ellis would play some 3 last year? Its the same old broken record. Selden will play the 2 like always. Ellis at the 4 like always.
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@Statmachine I don’t think its relevant. If he didn’t have a 3, why would he ask for two guards from SMU and FGCU if he wasn’t already planning to move Wayne…why not just ask for a 3??? His move to the 3 isn’t temporary - on that, we’ll just have to disagree.
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@KUSTEVE I would be happy to disagree with you.
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I wasn’t expecting Wayne to be moved to the 3 at WUG. I don’t know if it was the move to that spot that helped lift his game, or was it just because he was facing off against athletically inferior opposition?
Who would be our 3 this year if it isn’t Wayne?
Very unlikely to be BG or Svi. They both have the height but neither play aggressive ball like what we need out of a 3. We need someone who can take the ball to the rack and a good rebounder, as well as a respectable 3-pt shooter. The only guys I can think of that fit that definition are Wayne and Perry. Vick might end up playing some 3, but wouldn’t count on his contribution this year.
How many 2s do we currently have? Devonte, BG, Svi, Wayne, Vick… Frank was a 2 in HS and can still play it.
We have to pluck at least one guy from the “2 nest” to move to the 3.
Will it be Wayne? Granted he played against lessor competition sometimes at WUG, but he did show he could be productive at the 3.
Let’s say Devonte heals up quickly. How do you keep Devonte on the bench because Wayne is playing at the 2? That alone makes me think Wayne will move to the 3.
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Here’s a chunk from the KC Star article I cited above:
“We dissected last year’s season a lot,” Self said.
Among the many pressing issues was the matter of Wayne Selden, a sophomore who appeared to possess all the traits of a standout wing at the college level — but who had slid backward during his second season at KU. There had to be a way, KU’s staff surmised, to unlock Selden’s potential. When talks were over, Self says, the staff realized that the answer lay not with Selden, but with two other KU guards: Frank Mason and Devonte’ Graham.
If the Jayhawks could play with Mason and Graham in the backcourt — two smaller guards with point-guard skills — the offense could be more dangerous and creative … and Selden would be free to be himself on the wing.
“I think it’ll just free Wayne up,” said KU assistant coach Kurtis Townsend, who is tasked with working with the guards in practice. “Where he doesn’t have to handle some of the so-called ball handling duties. He’ll just be able to attack the rim and go score and play with more of a free mind.”
Wayne is our starting 3 as we sit here today. The WUG simply re-enforced that. Could something change between now and the start of the season? Sure. But that is where we sit right now. Further up this thread I quoted an additional item from Townsend about the staff liking Mason and Graham together.
Next, Svi is a more natural 2 than Wayne. The ball handling, etc., clearly makes him the clear choice at the 2. But Svi can flex between both spots, the 2 and the 3 if needed. No doubt he can play both (and for that matter, if we had another Mason like player, we could have three PGs on the floor at once, too). And if Graham and Mason are hurt, fouled out, whatever, and neither is on the floor – Svi is our next best (emergency) PG choice (better than Selden or Manning for sure). He handles the ball pretty well, just not PG “well” at this point.
How far have we come? Remember the silly “combo-guard” stuff? I was clearly on record that the combo-guard stuff with Selden was baloney. It still is baloney. It’s just chatter. Wayne Selden is not, and never has been a “combo guard.” He can’t handle the ball adequately enough.
Self said it best last season … an insight I have quoted a few times … when he included Wayne Selden in his comment about his team’s “big wings.” That ain’t a combo guard.
Finally, please read the last sentence of the quote from Townsend … is he taking quotes from our board here?
Wayne as a 3 will " … just be able to attack the rim and go score and play with more of a free mind."
Exactly. And a reminder to all that coach at AFH, this rule applies to shooters too. They are better with a free mind. But I’m sure they already know that. It’s just a matter of how much they care. It shows that as a coach, Townsend understands how much ball handling and additional responsibilities weigh on the minds of players. The more they have to think and deal with, the more that effects their play. It is an important underlying theme that perhaps now, maybe, we can get unanimous acceptance of. It is an undeniable truth. It’s not an opinion.
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@Statmachine No way, I just dont buy that. Selden is breaking out at the 3 spot! Why would Coach move him back to SG and lose production on both ends from him? It doesnt make any sense. Its like a lion eating some hummus.
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Selden’s transition could lead to a couple of things for KU.
First, Selden could have a huge season after being freed from ball handling duties. This may allow him to be one of our top scorers and just go get buckets and be aggressive. However, this may also mean that his NBA stock could fall because he would be very one dimensional offensively if he can’t take on ball handling responsibility. That’s good for KU, because it means Selden is probably a 4 year player, but bad for Wayne personally because he probably won’t ever make it as a pro if that is the case.
At the college level, I believe Wayne can score enough as a wing to justify him not doing much in the way of ball handling. Wayne has shown that he can score 12-15 and sometimes explode for 20+. However, at the pro level, that type of moderate scoring punch won’t be enough for a non-ball handler wing. He would either need to elevate to being an elite wing defender or a more dangerous scorer to have NBA value. Ultimately, that could mean Wayne could end up leading KU through a couple of deep tournament runs over the next couple years, first this year with Perry and then again next year teamed with Bragg.
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I could go dig up where HCBS said Selden can play the 1-3. He is going to transition between the 2-3 all year long. When Graham is at the 1 because Mason is resting he will move to the 2.
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Ball handling is not so taxing on players that it causes them to disappear in games! Wake up people the difference in Selden is his maturity and letting the game come to him.
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“However, this may also mean that his NBA stock could fall because he would be very one dimensional offensively if he can’t take on ball handling responsibility.”
Unfortunately for Wayne, if he stays at the 2 and still can’t handle the ball, it might even make his draft stock plummet further than if he hides it at the 3. NBA scouts are already aware of his handle issues.
The best thing for Wayne to help lift his stock is to polish his ball handling, whether he plays the 2 or the 3.
"Ball handling is not so taxing on players that it causes them to disappear in games! "
Typically, I would agree with that statement. But we need to find out why Wayne was a superstar at the 3 at WUG, and a mediocre D1 2 a few months earlier. The answer will show us where Wayne needs to be. We simply have to structure it so Wayne can continue to play like he did at WUG.
Last year, Wayne was “thinking” too much at the 2. He looked slow, partially because of his weight, but also his moves were slow and over-calculated. Most of his moves and passes were telegraphed.
I believe it was a factor of 3 things why Wayne became Superman in Korea:
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He dropped 10 to 15 lbs. That alone, makes a tremendous impact on a players speed, hops and stamina.
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He moved to the 3. He now goes against guys that are typically a half step slower than the 2s. Easier to drive on, and Wayne has the strength to create his own scoring space. Self and Townsend told him to stop thinking about dribbling and start thinking how to get to the rim.
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WUG isn’t D1. I know the teams were good. But Wayne often played against lessor opponents. Many of those guys did play D1, like at Princeton. Also, even though many of our opponents played many years together here and there, they still weren’t typically as “tight” as a D1 team, that learns to play as a team.
Can Wayne make it happen this year at the 2? Yes… but I am now believing we need him at the 3. He is our only chance at having a really productive 3. We need his rebounds as much as anything. The 3 spot gives him more places to setup on the floor and attack. He can be anywhere from baseline to top of the key. We now see how offensively potent he can be, and we need to make sure and keep him going like he is now.
We still may end up having problems scoring points this year. We shouldn’t. We have so many offensive weapons, but if we fall back in to the hi/lo and we don’t produce in the paint, we will need every point we can get because we will be looking at a season of BAD BALL!
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@drgnslayr You JUST opened the door for a new topic! Was it that Selden was moved to the 3 OR was it that HCBS didn’t draw up plays and trusted his guys to make plays??? That would completely fix Selden’s THINKING too much issues! Could it be the move from the 2 to the 3 OR the fact that HCBS let his guys just play and Selden didn’t have to do a whole lot of thinking? Could be a combination of both OR we might see the same Selden again next year playing the 3? Could also be the weight loss? There are more things to factor than just moving from the 2 to the 3. There was also a lot of talk about HCBS letting the guys play through their mistakes during the WUG. HCBS wasn’t red in the face and screaming every time someone turned the ball over. That could factor into how Selden played. Maybe he was more relaxed? Look at how many shots Selden took in the final game? No one player EVER takes that many shots during the regular season especially when they are missing as much as he was.
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Ball handling is taxing. Offensively, ball handling is probably the most taxing responsibility. With the ball in your hands, you cannot take a break - ever. You don’t get to relax. You don’t get to hang out on the weak side and be a decoy. You can’t put your hands on your knees and let your mind drift. You get zero rest on the ball.
That’s why I monitor PG minutes when a guy is his team’s only real ball handler. Those minutes are a huge grind and add up. That’s why I worried about Frank wearing down as the season went on (and he did, along with getting banged up).
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I feel like I am in a argument at my in-laws where everyone jumps in my Wife’s corner. I have a lot of very valid points that could all be contributing factors in Selden’s summer transformation! Weight loss, not using a play book (thinking), HCBS not red in the face chewing on players, maturity, letting the game come to him, and last but not least changing positions. Everyone is so focused on the changing of positions that they are dismissing all other factors. HCBS will sniff it out and come November I could be right or all of you could be right? Until then I will stand firmly on my position in this matter.
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Interesting post.
Yeah… we weren’t successful with the hi/lo at WUG. There were times you could see Self trying to beat that round peg in the square hole and it just didn’t fly. Our best low post scorer was Hunter, and he often got his off the rebound or even around the FT line. We just don’t have back to the basket players. Maybe Cheick can help some… but does it make sense to base our entire offense on sets that focus on players finishing that are not good at finishing in this capacity?
Another thing… they were playing in front of small crowds, mostly foreign and zero knowledge of Jayhawk basketball (for the most part). So there wasn’t any pressure applied from the venue. Wayne was cut loose in a low pressure environment.
I’m going to start a thread on this…
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@Statmachine Yikes, that means that we’re wrong and you’re right, because your wife can’t be right!
I do respectfully disagree with you on Wayne’s positioning. Sure, I could see him slide to the 2 every so often. It could be for stretches. If Self sees that Svi is better at the 3 and Selden the 2 when they are in, sure. But Self saying Selden can play the 1-3 is much different than it being part of our game plan. Self said Releford could play the point, too. Selden can play the 1 if Self puts him there. He has to because he is placed there. It will happen every so often. But that is not really the issue. It happened in the WUG just based on some personnel. Selden will absolutely, positively not be a “1” on this team unless we have a catastrophe with injuries or suspensions.
So no doubt, Selden could play a bunch at the 2. As we sit here today, he’s the 3. Fluid.
The more important point, though, is I think the misconception on this ball handling thing. Ask yourself this, is it more stressful for you to do something over and over that you are good at? Or is it more stressful to have pressure on you to do something you are not good at?
What is a more stressful event one could imagine in sports than having the ball in your hands, coming into the front court, with some athletic freak, with quick hands, long arms, guarding you, in your face, as you then have to initiate the offense by delivering a pass to the wing, on target, with a defender in deny position? And in front of 16,000 friends or foes? Eeesh.
Wayne played the 2, and didn’t face that a lot. I do agree. It is not so significant that it would cause one to disappear as Selden did.
Also, and don’t forget, that the 2 has “back” responsibility. Meaning, either the 1 or the 2 has to get back on defense every possession. Further, the 2 likely has “reset” responsibility with the offense, where the 3 does not. The 3 has a number of set plays for him.
Wayne is not a good ball handler. It is quite easy to understand why that lack of responsibility could “free (his) mind” to play better. But a combo of factors makes sense.
You make an outstanding point about Self screaming at them, and other possible answers. It would be silly for us to point to one and only one thing at this point, and @drgnslayr makes good points too. But I do think it to be reasonable to believe that a large part of Wayne’s positive performance at the WUG was related to the position change.
Fair?
