Bleacher Report says...
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@Statmachine Certainly no intent to bag on your comment, but whoever ranked CF as high as he was didn’t know squat about playing defense at the college level, either by CF or from CF. All that hype was based on his offense & draining 3’s against hs competition. JMO
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I just hope he doesn’t like fighting dogs!
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Always grst to hear good recruiting news this time of year. Now- how does Vick signing affect our other targets ??
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@wissoxfan83 …Or have a pseudonym like “Don Peru”
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@globaljaybird and mine too!
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Maybe LaGerald should LaWait for 2016? He is pretty slender.
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@Statmachine Frank was an underrated #76. Devonte was ranked 36. Svi was considered the best prospect from Europe.
Vick’s ranking is more comparable to Lucas and Traylor or other players we’ve had who transferred.Again, not saying that he won’t contribute or that we shouldn’t have signed him, but was just asking if any of you have heard or seen something that suggests he is underrated and a steal (besides the fact that Self signed him and some other big names were after him)
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@FarSideHawk Rankings are educated guesses. Or, uneducated depending on the results. They’re predicting the future, which is a pretty cagey proposition. Didn’t the “experts” have Embiid way down there, until KU signed him? I distinctly remember Devonte being 100+ in the rankings, before he decommitted from App St, and he had a year to get better. Then he’s number 36.If we took the rankings seriously at first glance, then we would’ve written off Devonte. So, i personally take the rankings with a grain of salt.
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@jaybate-1.0 Great post! haha. But seriously, I would agree except that he can come in and work with an amazing college strength coach for an entire season, practice with the team, and learn the playbook before we might actually need him. It wouldn’t surprise me to see him redshirt this season either. If we have an injury or something we can rip his redshirt and he can fill in as needed.
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I do think this a big get for Self IF it is for 2015-16. But I think it’s a big get for other reasons, not because he’s some overlooked guy. I’m with @FarSideHawk on this one.
If Vick doesn’t reclassify to 2015-16, I don’t think we’ll see Vick at Kansas. He can only sign a 2015-16 LOI right now. He can’t sign a 2016-17 LOI until November. Lots of time between now and then. Personally, I would be completely surprised if Self did this if it wasn’t for the 2015-16 class.
The reason I think it is a big get is, first and foremost, for insurance. Five perimeter guys with one coming off surgery is perilously thin. Having the sixth perimeter guy is a blanket of security. Self is protecting his roster. He has to.
Second, it’s a perfect pick up because the guy would have no real expectation of playing in year one. He’s the presumptive sitter, so to speak. We have a killer five man perimeter rotation and he’s the sixth. Enjoy the view but be ready – you’re a torn ACL away from having a real role.
Third, he’s a multi-year guy. A possible foundational piece. His ranking is lower than the range that I typically prefer. It’s a “we’ll see” kind of thing though.
I wouldn’t ever take the rankings with a “grain of salt” as @KUSTEVE suggests. The Ben McLemore talk is the same tripe we hear from the AAU coaches every time a guy signs. I do recall Anrio Adams being Dwayne Wade.
Rankings are a very reliable guide. History proves that. It’s unassailable. Everyone has their opinion, but rankings are the best indicator of success that we have at our disposal as kids head into college. And they are pretty reliable. If one trusts Self, then one would see that Self recruits the guys that are highly ranked. There’s a reason. But guys can certainly be better than their ranking (Mason) or worse (Selden) or pretty much on par (Traylor, Lucas). Not a science, but a guide.
Let’s not kid ourselves. Mack, Vick, and Eubanks are/were complete afterthoughts. They are/were the back-up plans. Let’s be careful not to project their roles and their impact beyond “we’ll see.”
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@HighEliteMajor I 100% take the rankings with a grain of salt when they are outside of the top 15. The top 15 guys are typically as advertised and are going to be studs in college and play in the NBA. There are a few exceptions but for the most part the cream of the crop out of high school do great things in college and play in the NBA.
From there it gets very dicey and some guys flop and some guys play way above their ranking. Look at the All American team from this year. Frank Kaminsky was unranked. Delon Wright was unranked. Jerian Grant was not in the top 100. Malcolm Brogdon was not in the top 100. Seth Tuttle was unranked. The remaining All Americans were all total studs who were supposed to be incredible, Okafor and Russell type kids. I think the guys ranked from about 15-100 don’t have a ton of difference.
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Agree with your post, but isn’t Vick the guy us “developer plan” guys want to recruit? There is nothing OAD about his game. He completely fits the prototypical Self “utility guard” concept to a T. Long, athletic (or will be), capable all around.
He is the afterthought because we were first focused on guys that could possibly make a monster impact next year, enough to put us over the top for a NC. Vick may not be that guy, but maybe he has 3 years in him as a Jayhawk and can make solid contributions all along the way. Maybe even a 4 year player. He is thin and a long ways from showing up on a NBA draft board.
My biggest like is the 11 rpg. That tells me he maintains a good amount of energy on the court at all times. Something we often lack. He might even be able to give us some fruitful minutes this year with his energy.
It is too early to say what he will become. I dream of him being the next TRele, but longer and more athletic later on. It would be something if this young man can become a defensive monster!
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He sounds like a kid that if he stayed in the 16 class and had more tournaments to be evaluated would have been one of those major risers this summer as talked about how his spring was going. Committing so early to SMU could have kept people from seeing him as much. AAU coaches have commented on how much improved he had been this spring. Seems like a kid that just needed exposure and when he got it people finally realized hey this kid has talent. Assuming he goes with us to Korea it will be interesting to see if he plays and what kind of player he might be.
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@HighEliteMajor Have to agree wholeheartedly:
"Let’s not kid ourselves. Mack, Vick, and Eubanks are/were complete afterthoughts. They are/were the back-up plans. Let’s be careful not to project their roles and their impact beyond “we’ll see.”
I’d add that after “we see” how his defense & ball handling skills/decisions are, we’ll also see how Bill handles him going forward. The memory of how Self handled Rio Adams is still fresh & Bill’s way too stubborn to change his approach on those factors this late in life. The clock will tick for Mr Vick…
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@drgnslayr I disagree. The biggest stat is the steals. It seems like Mario Chalmers was the last guy to even have his steals per game mentioned. That is one thing we have seriously been lacking sense the departure of Chalmers and RusRob. Oubre had quick hands but for some reason it did not translate into a ton of steals. We need someone with the ability to anticipate a pass and go get an easy 6 points a game just on that. Obviously Vick won’t be that right away. But that would be my hope for him. Can’t really tell much from the video above. Nice to see the guy play but catching lobs and selected pull up jumpers that go in don’t tell a lot about a player. Definitely a wait and see type guy. But he is an uninjured american guard which we sorely need for the WUG.
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I like those steal numbers, too. You just can’t count on steals like you can rebounds. A lot of guys would have more steals if they played the passing lanes better and “sold” the passer on throwing the pass they are anticipating. There is a definite talent to that and it appears Vick has that talent, and as you said, we’ve been lacking in that department. I think Vick has what it takes to become a very good defender!
Rebounds are mostly a question of attitude and hustle. Of course there is technique involved also… but if a guy just wants the ball and goes for it, he is going to build his rebounding stat line.
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@HighEliteMajor It’s your job to talk me off the cloud, and most of the time, you do a good job of breaking me out of my self induced myopia. Not on this guy. The hook has been set, and I’m like one of those big tunas being reeled in on “Wicked Tuna” with Vick. I get it - you’re thinking Doyle, and I’m thinking Brandon Rush with better handles.
As for the rankings, who is better right now? Number 12 Wayne Selden, or number 100+ Frank Mason? Who was better last year…number 4 Cliff Alexander, or number 100+ Devonte Graham ( Graham was originally 100+ before playing an extra year). My point is rankings are educated guesses, based on all kinds of factors. We’ve all seen cases in our experience in sports where a guy with seemingly better physical attributes gets pushed around by guys that are tougher- more determined- more aggressive. There’s no list that can adequately measure the human heart + desire to succeed. Every year, there are guys littered throughout college bb who, when given opportunity, makes mincemeat out of the rankings. My belief is we got a steal with an underranked guy, and he will provide some valuable minutes this year.
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You are no tuna… your a friggin’ killer whale!
I’m on board with your idea that we got a steal. He’ll only become a steal if he develops though. And why shouldn’t he? Well… there is a lot to that.
@HighEliteMajor also knows Self’s tendency to recruit OVER existing players. What if we land the #1 shooting guard in the country next year? What happens to Vick then?
I’d like to think Vick has this all figured out so he is super psyched to come to Kansas and start busting azz! If he does that… maintains a great attitude… stays out of Self’s doghouse… he should earn some minutes this coming year and not just be thrown into the deep freeze. He might even get to the point of landing some of the more vital minutes. Maybe he’s a “money guy”… meaning… when the going gets tough, this guy gets going and will drag the rest of the team on his back if needed. Been a while since we’ve had one of those!
Vick can make his future so compelling that the next #1 shooting guard in the country wouldn’t dare come to Kansas!
Nothing is stopping him from achieving that but himself. Let’s hope when he packs his bags for Kansas he brings a bag full of toughness, one full of hustle, and one full of open mind.
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@KUSTEVE You could be right BUT his biggest hurdle will be how quick he learns the play book. That is the one thing that will keep his butt on the sideline more than anything? If BG is healthy I don’t see this particular freshman seeing court time with Svi and BG in the mix. With Mason and Graham there was only Tharpe/Frankamp standing in their way and I cant see HCBS flexing his muscles to force a RS or transfer on ANY guard currently on our roster to facilitate PT for Vick. Just not happening IMO.
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@drgnslayr Wayne shoots the worst % of anyone on our team. Wayne made the same number of turnovers as Frank, even though Frank played 300 more minutes, and handled the ball far more than Wayne. Many of the turnovers Wayne makes show up as missed shots, as he lunges straight into the heart of the paint, hoping to get fouled, and ends up bricking from 4 feet away> if he is fouled, then he stands in as a 65% free throw shooter. He has trouble with any kind of pressure when dribbling, and doesn’t pass the ball well under duress. To me, he plays slow, without having another gear available. Now, he could certainly play at a higher level this year, and I am very hopeful that he does play better this year, but the thought of a #2/3 with great ball handling skills has me salivating. I love the aggressive drives to the basket, and love the way he passes off once the defense collapses on him. I am not saying he is a replacement for Wayne, but I love the thought of him playing in a line up with Devonte and Frank, and how our offense could take off with three great ball handlers in the lineup.
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likely situation that we do land the #1 SG as Fergy Ferguson is likely a Jayhawk with the speculation out there.
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I hear exactly what you are saying. I thought Wayne should have been pulled early last year and forced to up his game early on. It hurt us that he slumped for most of the year. I was one of the guys in here that couldn’t believe Self just let him play through an entire year of bad basketball. He did turn his game up a lot towards the end… but if he repeats a year like last year in this coming year, and Self just lets him ride it out, we are going nowhere in March! And I’m not even sure we win conference title #12.
Every player is going to have to be held personally accountable. If Self doesn’t hold the same standard for everyone on the team, we will have a subpar year.
@Statmachine makes a great point about learning the playbook. I know I’m not expecting to see Vick owning all the early season minutes at the 2. But if he plays his cards right, he might own some minutes later on.
Let’s hope Vick shows enough potential that he puts pressure on Wayne to perform well at the 2. I guess BG wasn’t able to do that last year… enough to make it a real challenge for those minutes.
I think DEFENSE will be the deciding factor for minutes at the two after Christmas. Between Christmas and our first couple of conference games, Self will settle down on a lineup, and then after that it is tough for anyone to break in to the starting lineup. By that time, Vick needs to show he can score out of the Self playbook, and he needs to show he can lock down on D1 guards. The door is open for him because Wayne has shown weaknesses in both his offense and defense… unless he comes out this year where he left off last year and brings a big presence for every game! That is what we really need this year… Wayne bringing game every single game!
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@Statmachine Even if BG is healthy, let’s face it, his ball handling skills just aren’t there. If you’re talking sitting on the 3pt line and bombing away, he’s got it. But BG putting the ball on the floor and driving the basket always has me with hands covering my eyes so as not to see the wreck. So if Vick comes in, readily adapts to HCBS style, displays desire and determination, BG could find himself last in line.
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@brooksmd I looked up our team stats, and our 12.8 turnovers a game last year was good for a tie for 201st in Div 1, while Wisky, Virginia, the Shlockers, are all top 10 in least turnovers. Experience will help that number this year, but anybody we can get that values the basketball, can pass and dribble effectively, and has shown ability to create his own shot, and can penetrate has to find minutes in our program. I’m thinking Vick’s quickness will be a great asset on the defensive end as well. Maybe we have someone now who can stop guards from penetrating so easily.
