Cliff
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@Crimsonorblue22 I know Nothing about this loan company. But agreements and contracts are usually going to be unique to the parties involved. Cliff may have an agreement with Kansas, but the Loan Company has no agreement with Kansas. It is up to Cliff to abide by the agreement he took, not the Loan company. Loans are given on potential frequently.
I remember in 2002 Gooden showed up on Campus with a navigator all of the sudden. And there was a Joke on campus when we saw him buying the brand name fudge pops from the grocery store that we knew he was a goner. Shady things happen. It’s up to our own moral compass to do the right thing in life. But as I’ve said before, I see large sums of money change people (Or reveal them) all too frequently. Greed is a monster.
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@Blown You are correct. There are good and bad, so when I write Sleeze- ball agent, it is specific to the bottom dwellers of the agents, not all of them.
Same with lawyers, etc.
I had a really bad situation with a finance person I was in a partnership with in a biz deal. We were partners for years-but this crook cooked the books. I swear if I wasn’t a church going man,the revenge I wanted and didn’t act on-_-
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@JayhawkRock78 forgiveness is divine.
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@JayhawkRock78 stinks!!
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@Blown yep!
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Probably the best thing that got me through it was we had moved 1500 miles away and I was focused on great things my kids were doing at the time. Good thing I left the company, town and got away from it.
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I don’t get it. Who the hell cares if the parents are borrowing on their kid’s future. Kids borrow on their parent’s reputation all the time.
Furthermore, if all those sh*tbag corner title and payday loan scum suckers are legal at 300%, how in the hell is getting ANY kind of loan “illegal” in this country? If someone wants to lend you some money… so what??? Please explain any recent situation where finding one dumbass to loan money to another dumbass has ever been prevented in the business world. Do we really have any moral or legal problem with that any more?
F’ the NCAA and the NBA too.
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@DanR that’s a lot of dumbasses!
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@DanR You make a very good point. I guess it is all about “minors”
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@Crimsonorblue22 Well, there are a lot of them–everywhere!
@JayHawkRock78 Good point–the music/entertainment industry is pretty bad about parents whoring out their talented kids. But Cliff was 19 as of 11/16/14, so he wasn’t a minor even last August.
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Too bad Cliff just didn’t keep the Illinois hat on.
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@DanR +100
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@wissoxfan83 Ya know, I’ve been thinking that very thing tonight after seeing Lucas go for the DD today. This was the Lucas I expected to see this year, & today he showed everyone he does have a skillset to play the high low, set picks & seal, & hit the boards hard. Age wise he’s a junior, but this is only his second year of eligibility. He knew, as most all of them did today, that he wasn’t going to get that angry, quick hook & played so much more focused & relaxed. Kid’s playing hurt too. Hey, I feel bad for Cliff, but I sorta hope he is done. He’s not been that much the factor with 10-15 min PT a game, & other guys are busting their asses for minutes too Guys that want to be here for four years too. . Cliff’s the talent & I get that, but the first time someone convinces him he’ll get picked he’s gone anyway. Damn shame too cause he’d be a helluva player with 3-4 years of CBB & is at best a marginal pro now. His family or whoever may have doomed him to a professional life of mediocrity when the ceiling was so much higher.
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Sorry. But I havent seen anything out of Cliff that suggests he will ever have an NBA career thus far. He may well get drafted. But kids get drafted every year. And you never hear about alot of them ever again. Right now thats where i see Cliff. Its unfortunate how things have worked out. I mean honestly hes already one of the biggests busts weve had here. And if this season gets vacated over this loan crap… There will be absolutely no question.
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@Blown I called the agents sleaze balls and like @JayhawkRock78 I was referring to the ones that seek out kids and families to take advantage of them and/or don’t inform those that seek them out all legality issues.
Cliff should have hired George Lawson, Cam Newton and Johnny Manziel’s attorney. If this issue isn’t going to be resolved until after Cliff talks with the NCAA and his current counsel is telling him not to talk doesn’t that admit guilt? I know it’s the NCAA and prior rulings of similar cases doesn’t matter but if Cam could prove ignorance to his dad requesting $$ for his commitment (NOT A LOAN, but payment for his commitment!!!) and not be ruled ineligible then why doesn’t Cliff? Was he physically at these meetings in August which we make it hard to prove his ignorance to the issue? Wouldn’t he have been at KU at the time? And what’s the point of not cooperating? What does that solve? Because either way Cliff isn’t going to suit up so they should just pull the bandaid off and cooperate.
And you can tell from the interview yesterday that Self feels the same way about how the family attorney is handling the case. He’s asking for all parties to cooperate. Well we know the NCAA is cooperating so who does that leave? The loan company? The family?
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@Kip_McSmithers I thought Self was doing the best he could not to tongue lash Cliffs family in that interview, too, yet he could barely contain it. It appears there is some wrongdoing and Cliff knows it.
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These days, more than one way to shut down the playing time of topnotch recruits. Sic a bevy of slick charismatic loan officers on the kid’s family members. SHAZAM! Bye-bye college eligibility.
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@DanR - I know it easy to get upset with the NCAA, and rules. But what do you want them to do? If they are to preserve college athletics, there has to be rules just like the one that’s hanging up Cliff.
There is nothing “illegal” about his parents taking a loan. It’s just against NCAA rules.
Remember, a big issue with many of these supposed “loans” is that they never get paid back, or there are no payments required while the kid is in school.
To condense it down – if the NCAA doesn’t enforce this stuff, parents will simply get cash payments that will influence where the kid goes to school.
The kid is, well, a kid. So his parent or parents are the ultimate authority and influence. What better way to get a kid to go to a school than to give his mom a house or money or a “loan”?
A black and white rule ends the discussion as to whether the money influences a school choice, or whether the money or benefit came from a school, or had connections to the school.
I think Cliff is done here.
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@HighEliteMajor Pretty clear he’s done with no cooperation as advised. Also the lawyer is now adding more fees to the process & the vicious cycle gets more cyclonic every day forward. Hopefully Cliff can play ball somewhere but his chances in the L may now be slim & none. They don’t have the patience for a kid to learn unless it’s fast. Cliff doesn’t strike me as the valedictorian type. All the while we speculated about injuries, school work, his motor, his drive…it likely was this cloud hanging over his head. But we were correct that there was something bothering him even though we had no clue as to what.
Essentially this “family faupaux” has changed his learning curve to develop the skills for a fruitful professional career. Sad too, not only because he is in such a coveted program, but because he’s still a wet behind the ears. 19 year old kid, that really doesn’t know crap from apple butter. Certainly hope this is not the beginning of the end for another young career that could have been really great had there been more patience, & maybe prayer involved. Of course this is just one man’s opinion.
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I don’t know enough about the ncaa laws, but could this process be taking so long because Cliff wants to come back next year? Maybe, he didn’t know what his parents had done, and he told them awhile back he needed to stay another year in order to get a decent contract. The crap hit the fan and his folks didn’t know how to pay the money back. Maybe at this pt. Cliff told coach, probably the only guy he could trust, meanwhile his folks are in deep stuff w/loan co. and their son.
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@Crimsonorblue22 thats an excellent theory. I hadnt thought of that. Seems either way that its not gonna be a happy ending. But. I guess we wait and see
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@Crimsonorblue22 that a good theory.
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Cliff turned 19 in November of 2014, so he would have been a legal adult (18 years old) in August 2014.
As such, his signature would have been necessary to consent to his property being used a collateral for a loan for his parents or to provide guaranty for the indebtedness.
The Yahoo Sports story indicated a UCC financing statement had been filed with the Illinois Secretary of State.
When a lender makes a vehicle loan, its lien is noted on the title. When a lender makes a loan using real estate as collateral, the lender perfects its security interest by filing a mortgage or deed of trust (depending on the state) with the appropriate office (such as a Register of Deeds).
Article 9 of the Uniform Commercial Code outlines how a lender is able to perfect a lien against other property that is not titled or deeded.
A UCC Financing Statement filed with the Secretary of State is a way for a lender to put other potential lenders on notice that a lien has already been filed against assets of the borrower.
Article 9 outlines very specific language that must be used in order to properly perfect the lien.
A lien against a Debtor’s interest in contractual benefits could be obtained, although normally a contract (presumably and NBA contract in this case) would need to be in existence or at least imminent (technically can’t pledge collateral that doesn’t yet exist) . And for that lien claim to be enforceable, its use as collateral would need to be acknowledged by the person who was set to receive those contractual benefits.
At any rate I completed the UCC search on the Illinois Secretary of State web site Latillia Alexander (his Mom) and found an overview of the record, but in order to see the actual document a copy must be ordered from the Secretary’s Office.
I did not find results on a search for his father - Clifton Terry.
I also searched for Cliff Alexander and Clifton Alexander, but did not find any results…although if Cliff is a nickname, his middle name or if Cliff is not the first part of his first name the search criteria would not have found any filings.
Long story, made short…if Cliff wasn’t involved the lender did not have the authority to place a lien on his future earnings.
Mom could sign the loan, but without Cliff’s consent or guarantee the lender would not have claim to Cliff’s future income stream…and they might not even if he had been involved…and the enforceability of the contract were contested.
So…in an ironic twist - if it was the UCC financing statement that tipped off the NCAA to possible improprieties - in filing a potentially worthless UCC the lender may have compromised their ability to get repaid by impairing Cliff’s ability to improve his draft stock,
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@SoftballDad2011 Interesting stuff. Thanks for the update. In the information age it’s amazing what you can find just with common search tool if you know where to look.
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Ok, so we need a new big man. Any recruiting suggestions?
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I thought we were after Zimmerman.
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I’m not a big fan of the NCAA either. However understand why the NCAA was really created. It’s to keep the money schools from cheating in every aspect of the game especially in recruiting.
We can see what getting all the best talent can do to the game, by just looking at UK. Everybody is preaching the greatness that is happening before our eyes. I’m like really, they should win, they have all the talent.
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@JayhawkRock78 We’re best positioned with Thon Maker and Cheick Diallo. I’d be happy to add either. Ivan Rabb likes Self, but it looks like he’s going to spend his collegiate life out west. Same for Zimmerman, for the time being.
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This situation with Cliff is just another example of why the NCAA will not be in control of the Power 5 conferences much longer.
The NCAA is outdated, frankly. These rules worked well when there was a threat of corruption in college sports due to gambling influences (there were several point shaving scandals in the 40’s and 50’s). They were practical when most pro leagues didn’t offer anything in the way of large salaries.
Now, however, the rules can’t keep up with where the game has gone.
In 1985 the NBA salary cap was $4m. That’s less than the veteran’s exception is now. Simply put, the NCAA is trying to cage a bear in a litter box. There’s just no way to do it.
The NCAA’s rules are really best suited for athletes that do not have a future at the highest professional level. There is a reason that the best baseball, hockey, soccer, tennis and golf athletes generally do not play NCAA sports. The truly elite players in those sports go to the pros straight out of high school. Baseball’s rules are such that there is more talent often times at the junior college level (where players can leave before graduating) than there is at the D1 level. Most elite soccer players head to Europe or other elite academies. Same in hockey. In tennis and golf, most elite players hook up with elite coaches as teenagers and turn pro while still in high school.
But basketball and football cling to this old model. That model works for non-elite players. It puts elite players in a position where they will always be under intense scrutiny because there is so much financial benefit available if you locate even a below average pro.
Think about it this way. The average commission for a sports agent is between 4% and 10% of the total contract. If you can sign up a guy that can just stay in the league for a while, you stand to earn hundreds of thousands, if not millions of dollars, over his career.
Deshawn Stevenson went straight to the pros out of high school and had a pretty meh career overall. Never averaged even 12 points a game as a pro. Never went to an all star game or won any major awards. He was just a pro for 13 years. In that time he made nearly $28m. That means his agent made between $1.1m and 2.75m over 13 years. And that’s just one client.
DeShawn Stevenson was worth probably more per year to his agent than most of us make annually. That would not have been the case 60 years ago. That wouldn’t even have been the case 40 years ago. Honestly, up until the last 20 years or so, that would not have been the case.
And that’s for a lower level, non-star player. A guy like Kevin Garnett has made over $300m in his career. Chris Webber made nearly $180m over his 15 year career. If you were his agent, you made at least $7m over the course of his career, if not more. And people knew Chris Webber was going to be a star when he was a freshman in high school.
The NCAA isn’t prepared for this. They can’t be. You can’t serve the interests of the guy that is just playing sports to pay for school and also make sure that the interests of a guy like Chris Webber are protected.
If you knew you could make $7m over the next 15 years by lending someone that really needed the money $50,000 today, would you do it? I would take out a $50,000 loan today so I could lend the money to somebody else. That’s not just return on investment - that’s basically printing money.
The NCAA can’t do it anymore and that has become clear. Within a few years, the big conferences will break away and structure their own rules, knowing that they can prepare the elite players for pro careers. The death of the NCAA is coming, and when it happens, they will be buried in a pile of rules and red tape.
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@DoubleDD I love your last point. All year I have been hoping that I am not the only person in the country who thinks that UK winning is not a big deal. Of course they are winning. They have assembled a team with more height and more talent than anyone else. UK winning does not impress me. Not in the least. If they won every game by 25 points I might be impressed.
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In all likelihood, if there was a loan it was not recorder via the method you outlined since it applies when there is physical property against which a lien can be issued. This is what lending institutions do when they lend you money to buy a car or a home and basically insures their money will be protected; when you pay out the loan, you get a lien release of quit claim document that you file with the proper government agency that effectively removes the name of the lending institution as a “co-owner” if you will. I will guess the record you found for Cliff’s mom is one of this type.
If money was lent based on potential earnings, it was likely a private contract that would not be filed and if it is not repaid, it would be pursued in Civil (not criminal) Court which could order a “garnishment” of future earnings but without a Court order the lender has very little recourse. Most of this type of contracts are risky for the lender since they are based on future earning above a threshold and if he never earns that money the loan probably would go unpaid with little recourse to the lender. This type of loans are structured more along the lines of what in business we call “seed money” or “good will money.” You basically invest some money in good faith with the hope that you will be rewarded with a contract later. It is perfectly legal and I do this even with Government agencies, but it is against NCAA regulations. The NCAA has zero legal authority to force compliance or even compel the interested parties to come to the table; all it can do is rule the player ineligible and the school will stop playing him. This is the extent of the NCAA authority since the NCAA is not a government agency (as many think it is) but simply a private association with voluntary membership. Coach Self made it clear that if the Alexander family is unwilling to talk to the NCAA (which they appear to be) they cannot be forced and there is zero chance the issue gets resolved and Cliff is done at KU.
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@JayHawkFanToo Yah, knowing absolutely nothing about the politics/procedure involved with this type of stuff, I just feel like Cliff is done dudes.
He hasnt really impressed me at all, I kinda feel like I did with Josh Selby.
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@Lulufulu Ironic that you mention Selby. I see them as very similar. If they would have stayed, developed in school, that (in my opinion) would have led to productive NBA careers. Selby left too early. Cliff will be making the same error. He may get 1st round money, but his long term career is what is at risk. We don’t know “for sure” of course.
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The UCC filing I located listed the same creditor in the yahoo article.
I have been a lender for 20 years.
The method you mention is basically unsecured lending…no collateral taken. or you could take collateral but choose not to “perfect” the lien, meaning you chose not to file the appropriate documents to put other lenders on notice that you filed the lien.
If a lender goes this path, they risk another creditor gaining the legal right to seize the collateral…even if that lender loaned money after the first loan.
If the creditor mentioned in the yahoo article filed a UCC it was to perfect is claim in non-titled property - commonly called chattels - a UCC financing statement is used to accomplish this.
A UCC financing statement is nothing more than a public notice to let other potential creditors know that a lien has already been filed against some form of property. This minimizes the risk of a borrower double pledging collateral to different creditors.
Inventory, account receivable, contract rights, non-titled machinery and equipment, general intangibles, tort claims, etc all use this method.
some non-titled consumer goods loans are also perfected this way…household goods, small watercraft, etc.
If there was a specific contract involved you can also take an assignment of that specific contract which involves additional steps…but in this case, Cliff had no contract to take on assignment on.
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READ BETWEEN THE LINES -
This situation has damaged our year, mostly because we don’t have a resolution and it doesn’t appear it will be resolved anytime soon. It will also damage us in the future!
If any of you caught Self’s interview yesterday, he mentioned how frustrated he is because it appears that attorneys have clogged the process. He mentioned that Cliff’s family needs to allow an interview with the NCAA to get a quick resolution, perhaps opening the door for Cliff to become eligible for March Madness.
What Self didn’t say, and why he is really upset… is that Cliff’s status of UNKNOWN has also put our big man recruiting on hold and UNKNOWN. The big men that are coming available have waited because they want to see how school positions shake out. They are looking for certainty.
It appears we may not have certainty for a long, long time.
So what should Kansas do? Throw Cliff under the bus now and announce he won’t be offered an annual scholarship next year?
I clearly say YES! We should give this thing perhaps another week or so. Give Cliff’s family notice about how their lack of communication with the NCAA is hurting Kansas’ future. It is very unlikely Cliff will ever get reinstated for college ball again. But what should we do? Let it go and forget our hopes of recruiting his replacement?
Sorry Cliff… but unless your family starts playing ball with the NCAA now, you should be cut from any hopes of a future scholarship next year.
Self did say… “If we don’t hear anything before March Madness, it is unlikely it will be resolved in time for our first exhibition game next fall.”
Read between the lines… If we don’t have a resolution soon, we know for certain that Cliff won’t be back. I hope I’m reading more in this, and that Self will step up and stop the madness on Cliff. Cut his scholarship.
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@drgnslayr Slayr, as much as I’d like to see Cliff back next year to benefit both him and Kansas, I believe you’re right. Give the family an ultimatum with a time limit and if they don’t go for it, bye bye. They want to play their games fine, but not on KU time.
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I think also it sounded like Self was saying. If its not resolved so Cliff can play in the tournament this year. Hes just done. I felt that was the message…without actually spelling it out. And perhaps that’s somewhat of an ultimatum. But also it could be not wanting the uncertainty in recruiting. He may be saying youre in now. Or youre just out for good. We cant wait on you. Other irons in the fire
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@konkeyDong Believe me I don’t do much research compared to many on this site. Thanks for painting a clearer picture. I don’t want to mislead anyone.
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@drgnslayr Cliff will just run out the clock, and declare for the draft.
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I agree with what you are saying when it applies to tangible items and items such as copyrights and even statements of WIP or receivables can be considered tangible; however, when it comes to intangibles items, such as undefined future earnings, there is nothing really that can be filed since there is not tangible property involved. All of this was extensively discussed at the time that LeBron was graduating from High school and his mother got a big loan and the consensus was that the lenders were taking a big risk because other than the good will of LeBron to repay his mother’s loan, there is no assurances that they would get re-paid and they would have to go to civil court and get awarded whatever property the could prove she had, and more importantly, they would have to actually get possession of whatever they get awarded, the last part a tall order. Other than that it is really a personal, unsecured loan, and if Cliff was not part of the agreement, he is under no obligation to repay it. Because of this, the assumption is that Cliff had to be involved for that loan to take place, no lender in his right mind would make a loan without the likely payer of the loan not being involved, which leads me to believe that Cliff had to be involved and likeley he is done at KU.
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Sad, sad deal. Dumb dumb situation. Understandable, perhaps, but DUMB from the getgo. The cap situation should have warned Jayhawk fans that trouble was on the wind. I feel for Cliff. He needed two years in the program, probably much more than we needed his slowly developing collegiate game, as it turns out. A healthier and stronger Cliff, spending a second year in Lawrence, most probably would have moved into NBA lottery consideration. In his current predicament, he will be fortunate to be selected somewhere between 15th and 21st in this June’s draft. Guaranteed multimillions of dollars most probably have dwindled to a few million, at best, his first five years as a professional. His skills most probably will undergo extensive developmental time in the D League. Franchises will not risk time and millions to cope with future injuries or retarded development. Understandable complexity, I say, because hasty bird-in-hand greed is almost impossible to turn down for the families of many players who live in poverty or near poverty. Without one hell of a bundle of good luck, Cliff will sail off into the sunset as an American Sports Tragedy. Opportunity thwarted and denied. A very tough bullet for Bill Self and Jayhawk fandom to bite.
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@brooksmd Yeah,ya gotta give them the news to either step up or step out. I said this very thing a couple of days back. If that contract was consummated on a non-recourse premise, it’s not worth the paper it’s written on cause Cliff has no future earnings they can garnish. Hell, he or the borrower may die in their sleep tonight. I’m under the impression that some family member hooked Cliff into co-signing on a potential contract & yes he is done if he has. He should not have been compromised by his family. Also making him ineligible to be able continue to work towards receiving this “potential” contract by filing these public documents by the lender, they may have damaged his ability to earn a contract, so they may be essentially screwed too. JMO, but I hope they are. Credit is just waaaaaaay too easy for people to come by. When I was a kid & first married the rule of 78ths was still in effect & all car, trailer, boat, & mobile home financing was recourse-just like the Lizard Lick guys-you don’t pay, we come after the property then you. If you bought a house you had to be squeaky clean, have 20% down, & obligate not a dollar more than 25% of your income towards a mortgage-virtuallyA-1credit. My, my, how the American Dream has become a damn sham…
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@globaljaybird lizard lick? Should I ask?
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@drgnslayr said:
If any of you caught Self’s interview yesterday, he mentioned how frustrated he is because it appears that attorneys have clogged the process.
Doesn’t help that Cliff is the crown jewel recruit from Snacks. Everything surrounding this is getting more tarnished. I agree with @REHawk that the Karma from the Cap incident is catching up.
The only glimmer I see on the horizon is that the hope that none of these rules apply to the World Games and Cliff might be eligible for that.
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@Crimsonorblue22 Certainly you may ask. By all means miss lady-That’s a ref to buy here pay here of this day & age-recourse finance. The seller co signs the buyer & gets paid his commission on delivery, of the property exchange & signing of the contract. basically in advance, of the fulfillment. Should the buyer default, the seller is obligated for payment to the lender. So then he must pay back not only his commission which was paid in advance, but also the entire loan he recoursed (co signed) to the lender. Then he retrieves the property if he can & tries to re sell said property, cars, trucks, etc; to recover his loss. That’s what recourse is- Mean & nasty when it needs to be. We didn’t do it often but back in the 60’s & 70’s it was a necessary way of life. We repossessed a few through the years, but it was always a major endeavor. Never got shot at, but was cursed many times.
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@bskeet I didn’t think about Cliff and the games! What a mess!
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@globaljaybird thx!!!
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@Crimsonorblue22 Like the Germans say, Danke’ Schönen (Donkey shit) …LOL !!
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If Cliff is ruled ineligible by the NCAA then I would rather we not take him with the team to World Games. My hope is we can fill his scholarship with one of the remaining top bigs that were are currently recruiting. Unfortunately Thon wouldn’t be allowed to play for us at WGs so if he commits and we had an open roster spot I would rather it go to a more experienced former big that could help teach our current bigs if their current NBA club would allow it.
