KU Played Bad, OSU Played Worse; Predicted--KU +10, Actual--KU +10
-
@jaybate-1.0 said:
Bill knows they wouldn’t have a prayer playing inside out against a really good team with normal size for a D1 big. He has admitted it in his own indirect way.
So what we watched was another nostalgia game. It was one those games that Bill knows he has the talent and size to win playing it the old way–the inside out way.
And so he does it because he can, and because he thinks it looks smart, like his suits.
The only problem with this indulgence is that it offers the team fewer reps playing the way they will have to play against good teams–outside in.
I am a hand wringer by nature and so I worry about such things, but Bill clearly believes that you really don’t have to practice outside in much to be good at doing it.
Brilliance.
I know it’s fool’s gold and all, but I guarantee you that Ellis could shoot 1-8 from half court. And we’d get one more point out of the deal, to boot.
Free the three.
-
@HighEliteMajor said:
Ellis could shoot 1-8 from half court. And we’d get one more point out of the deal, to boot.
This is the essence of it. And he might have gotten fouled one of those half court shots and gotten three free throws on top of the 3 point make of one shot.
The percentages are with the three point shot almost every possession with this team, because of how limited they are inside, unless they just get a wide open lob, or a wide open lane drive, and even then its only 2 points, not 3. So even the wide open looks should not be taken until the three point shooting has created some separation.
One more thing: did you notice that in the second half when things got dicey, he did have the bigs start playing face to basket even when he was making them go down low. I am pretty sure he was experimenting to see if his guys maaaaaaaaybe could score inside if they faced the basket.
Ah, but we are 14-2 and in first place and all of us are having a whale of a lot of fun with this season, so let us eat, drink and be merry, for some day we lose…
-
I have also been a long time proponent of changing our gameplay to cater to the terrific three point shooting we have on our team. I’ve been saying this since the UK game on that ‘other’ site. Anyway, really hoping the light goes on for Self soon and we unleash our sharpshooters and play to our strengths.
Its pretty obvious to me that in games where its tightly called, the odds get heavier in KU’s favor. KU has more depth than almost anyone we’ll play this year and that becomes the difference. Games that aren’t called tightly KU will struggle more. The opposing team doesn’t have to go far into their bench and frankly, the team isn’t tough enough inside to consistently finish through contact. Luckily for KU this was a whistle heavy game tonight. Also, in a game called like this, it seems Self plays the guys that are more apt to get into the lane, draw that contact, etc. vs. the finesse guys that are typically spot-up and shoot guys (Greene, Svi). I don’t think its planned to play those two as little as he did but moreso a product of how the game is being called.
-
Very much agree. I would only add that I believe the light has gone on for Bill at least since the Temple game. Every game recently where it was obvious we couldn’t win it inside, he has very quickly moved to outside in, as some of us are calling shooting treys first to loosen it up inside second.
But whenever he finds a team that is short enough to play inside out, and hold down the number of treys to <15, he plays inside out. Part of it is that he keeps trying to give his short bigs chances against guys their size to learn to play basic back to the basket post basketball. I suspect he keeps trying because he is hoping to find a game where the light goes on for one or two of the short bigs. It would help their self respect and confidence a lot of there was at least someone they could score inside on sometimes; that I suspect is what he believes.
And then @HighEliteMajor and I have been somewhat irreverently, and playfully, but with some seriousness too been explaining Self’s fitful migration from inside out to outside in in terms of psychodynamics. @HighEliteMajor tends to see Bill as some one who can be rather stubborn and inflexible about change. I seem to view Self slightly differently. Where as HEM sees Self as desperately trying to make his team able to play the old inside out game, so he does not have to change, I see him as conceding he has to change, but simply preferring the old way for subjective, stylistic reasons. Bill gets nostalgic for the way he loves to see the game played, and so when he gets a chance to play the old way, well, he does it because he can.
I am kind of playful and I suspect HEM is a bit practical by nature than me, and so I if I had to bet I would say his interpretation may be close to the probability of what gives with Self. But my rather more playful take on Self is still a possibility.
I think what you add substantially to this discourse about Self’s adapting to three point shooting is the idea that things like the way the games are called feeds into his tendency to go back to the old ways, or to carry on with the new ways and new experiments. I think that makes a lot of sense and I will be watching for it.
Rock Chalk and welcome back aboard, if you haven’t been visiting us much lately.
-
Ick nasty muddy grimey game. Our missed free throws were putting the screws to the KU fans. Every miss in the second half was like another ratchet on the rack. Each miss another lash. Especially after the first 10 minutes of this game put us in the mood to stomp OSU. All the whistles killed the flow. There seemed to be a collective release and relief with the applause and crowd murmur when Graham’s free throw at 3:24 bounced way up off the back of the iron then dropped through the net.
Lucas had good night off the bench to help build his confidence. He was called upon late to be the big when Self went small. Which is more perplexing this year: figuring the minutes/rotation for the front court or the back court?
Impressed with Graham’s play considering he is a Freshman point, he sat for several weeks, and he is contributing solid minutes early in conference play. Graham’s fresh out of the boot and Greene is riding pine along with Svi. I noticed Graham sitting right next to the coaches most of the time while he was out on the DL.
-
@HighEliteMajor Do you feel that Selden still has a viable shot at making it to the L? What about Ellis? Traylor? When Selden first got here, I thought he was almost a can’t miss. Same with Ellis. And Traylor maybe in pro ball somewhere. But it seems that they have been regressing. If so, is it Self’s fault?
-
For the 2nd time already I’m chalking this game up to “A win is a win”.
37% shooting and we will win by 10. +17 in boards, 14 missed FT’s, 16 Turnovers. Usually that’s going to be a loss but at Allen Fieldhouse its a win.
What I thought was the game could have easily been +10 in their favor. A lot of missed shots from O. State. We lose this game in Stillwater if we play the same way. They won’t miss 35 shots at home.
Selden & Ellis shot a combined 3-15. What the frick is that??? Mason, Oubre, & Graham making 21 FT’s was huge for this win.
We continue to see just how important Graham is to this team. Can handle the ball so it saves Mason’s wheels. Can bench Greene to send a message without losing any high level play. His importance as the 1st or 2nd guard off the bench is noticeable. I’m honestly surprised how well he’s played but maybe we shouldn’t be, he was a supposed to be a College Freshman last year so maturity wise he’s got an edge.
Now let’s get ready for Saturday. Will need much better shooting to pull it off.
-
Pre-season hype has outweighed the true facts. Selden was expected to be the leader of this team as a top 15 All American. He has been inconsistent scoring the ball. His stock has gone down the drain. He will be back in a KU Jersey and will continue to work on his game.
Ellis doesn’t have a position in the league. With average athleticism and a finesse game he’'s destined to play in Europe without the consistency in his game.
The good thing is we will have a deep experienced team next year with legit title hopes.
-
@JayHawkFanToo Bingo. Hack a Hawk.
-
@HighEliteMajor Look at it this way - if Self wasn’t trying to occasionally pound it inside, we don’t have that highlight reel posterization dunk by Cliff on Anthony Allen. Puts a smile on my face every time
-
@jaybate-1.0 Nostradamus call on the game. If we had run the offense that works, we would’ve won by 20. Maybe this is a three dimensional chess strategery aimed at throwing off the Mayor- maybe it was a knee-jerk reaction to Napoleon Jr’s “hack a Hawk” game plan …maybe he simply forgot to try what works…
My predicted Big 12 standings:
1- KU 14-4
2-WVU 12-6
2-Clones 12-6
4-UT 11-7
4-OU 11-7
6=Faylor 10-8
6-OSU 10-8
8-Grapes 8-10
9- TCU 6-12
10-TTU 1-17
-
Lucas might not have had a TO in the box score, but he muffed a pass from Graham that was an easy dunk. Fumbled it right out of bounds. You know, the same thing Perry does every time he has the ball in traffic. I’ll bet if you shake Perry’s hand, it is one of the weakest, limp-wristed handshakes ever. Grab ahold of it tight Perry! Frustrating!
-
@ZIG stat HUDY immediately!
-
So much for Devonte’s return spelling rest for Mason. Cannot believe a word Self says!! His tendencies override him.
I thought last nights game was going to be a good indicator of how the rest of conference will play out. They won by 10, but the PHOG brings 10 so I call last nights game a wash. I’m predicting 5 losses for this group in conference play, but that will still be enough to win or tie it.
-
@jaybate-1.0 said:
Perry played his increasingly usual bad game
I cannot count how many times I yelled at the tv after Perry gave OSU the ball… over and over and over. I know it was at least 13 (5 official turnovers and 7 out of 8 missed shots) but there were unofficial ones too. Every. Single. Time he touched the ball I said “here it comes” and unfortunately I was right waaayyy too often. It was painful.
Coach even kept running plays especially designed to give him a shot late in the game! ACK! I get the whole confidence building thing for a player we’ve relied so heavily on earlier in the year. But if insanity is doing the same thing over and over and hoping for different results… well, if HCBS isn’t a little crazy for continuing the Perry lovefest when the guy is obviously having a rough night, he sure is driving me nuts.
Notice how Ford gave practically his whole bench minutes in a high pressure game (11 guys with two or more fouls!!)? There were various reasons for that (foul trouble, winded, etc) but I sure wouldn’t have minded seeing a few more of our guys see some real action so they won’t be so rusty come March.
But hey, we won another hard fought game.
And almost as good as that… did you see the Misery Kensucky score? 86-37, 1-18 from 3. I wish there was a way for both of them to lose, but since someone had to, it’s gotta be the Kittens. All in all, not a bad night
-
We did play some defense.
-
We beat the crap out of Forte. That poor boy is counting his bruises and limping to advanced basketball theory class right now.
-
Brannen Greene all of three minutes played.
-
@wissoxfan83 We certainly did play some D. They scored 57 points. That is pretty abysmal. Too bad we only scored 67.
-
Two different KU technicals. Two men from Chicago. I think a lot of us would like to see some of this attitude in the Validictorian from Witchita. Jamari is very high strung and filled with explosiveness. Self’s job is to constantly calm him down., something he doesn’t have to do with Perry.
-
@wrwlumpy I’m from Chicago and I even got a technical once at a KU intramural game. My teammate came into the game without checking in. He got T-d and I slammed the ball on the ground for his stupidity and I got T-d up too.
In all seriousness I hated the T against Cliff because it was bogus. He did nothing wrong except flex his muscles. He knew he was going sportscenter with that throwdown. He’s a freshman. Let him show some emotion!
I hated Jamari’s T. I hated Oubre’s bushleague move for starting that whole stupid episode. I work in an environment like that that kids start fighting over the exact same thing. He bumped me, he said something to me, etc. etc. The difference is I teach kids, not grown men.
-
I was surprised to see 38 minutes for Mason as well, however, he got to spend a lot of that time off the ball and he rarely had to be the one chasing Forte all over the floor. I think that alone is a saving grace for our star point guard. I’m really starting to see why Frankamp transferred. No way does he beat out Frank or Devonte this year. Sure he could have earned some minutes with Graham’s injury but there was no predicting that.
As for Greene’s 3 measly minutes, he had to come out. A: he could not guard their tiny little quick guards B: he clearly tried to make that game about him with that 3 attempt. It was a moment that he tried to take over and that just isn’t what we need from him right now. He could have gotten that shot at any time over Forte. That was a play where he was trying to show the other team up. It was not about the team and he deserved to be set. I’m sure he heard about it which led to the pouting (which I didn’t see) which led to more sitting.
-
@benshawks08 you are exactly right about BG. I hate it too. Somebody said he didn’t hustle after a rebound either. After the game Self talked about us being selfish and not playing team ball.
-
@benshawks08 Thanks for the Greene explanation. I came home from a game and had to watch the KU game on semi fast forward before bed time. Didn’t really allow me to fully grasp what was going on.
-
@wissoxfan83 I hated that entire scenario too. I guess the problem is these are not grown men. They are certainly not kids but they are not men either. They are 18-20 year olds who are still at a point in their life where bad decisions come quite frequently. That said, Kevin Garnett is a grown man and he head butts Dwight Howard and then punches his hand while staring at him. Perhaps some of these guys never mature.
-
@joeloveshawks Well, Garnett is from the same neighborhood in Chicago as Cliff and near to Jamari!
-
The high minutes were a direct result of the importance to Self of winning a home game. It was a must win. Lose that game and the chance for another title would have been hugely jeopardized. The formula for winning the conference is win at home at any cost, and try to steal road wins when and where you can grab a little edge. Any time we are pushed at home, you are going to see the starters minutes on this team spike, if their performance level that night will permit it. In a close game, you raise your chances of winning the most by playing your best players the most. Mason is currently our best player and he had to play the most he possibly could to ensure that ten point separation survived. Self did NOT want a close game against a team with a guy like Forte. This time I totally agreed with Coach Self’s decision to play players huge minutes. The next game is not till the week end and its a Saturday Monday situation, so we’ll lengthen our bench then.
-
Neural nets not grown in.
Still unlearning aggressive territorial habits from childhood.
Keep close tabs in a hotly contested game against an agent provocateur like Travis Ford.
-
Totally agree. I wasn’t disagreeing with the decision. It really seems to me that Frank is just a beast and will play nearly every minute of every game this year. He is so important to the offense of this team it is very difficult to sit him. It is nice having Devonte back to get him some in game rest as mentioned above. I am guessing we will see much more “resting” of Mason in this way throughout this tough Big 12 slate. We simply can’t afford to have him out.
I have noticed these last couple of games some similarities developing between Devonte and Frank. Every once and a while I find myself wondering, “did Frank teach you that?” And they are a Freshman and Sophomore! Is it bad that I don’t miss Conner at all? Like seriously, zero!
-
I know Self was pretty pissed with how we played. I thought for the most part we showed great energy and aggressiveness which he’s always preaching. Of course he found plenty of other things to get on them about but that’s coach being coach. The game was muddied with fouls, those same fouls 2 games ago in Waco don’t get called. It shows you just how different Ref’s are from game to game. There was zero rhythm to the game and it dragged on forever because of it.
I was disappointed in the 2 called Tech’s on us. We did nothing to get either. Oklahoma St. is still proving they are a bunch of punks that try to come to Allen and show us out. The same situation with Mari happened last year. Cliff had a freshman moment and the refs picked on him for it. Now they will use that situation to fuel their fire when we return the visit in a few weeks.
-
@wissoxfan83 I live in Chicago. Somehow I can keep from physically threatening people. But hey, we can’t all be cool and calm.
I like Mari and Cliff for their emotions and drive. Just need to point that aggression in the right direction!
-
Travis Ford sent players to foul, plain and simple or as @KUSTEVE put it hack-a-hawk. The strategy was to slow the game and not allow KU to get into any kind of rhythm and the game was choppy and lasted 2-1/2 hours. Early in the second half, OSU had played 11 players and ALL OF THEM had at least 2 fouls, including the ones that had played only a couple of minutes. The strategy worked in the first half when KU shot 15-24 (62%) from the FT line and fortunately it got better (for KU) in the second half when it shot 17-22 (77%). OSU shot 22-25 (88%) from the FT line. A physical game with lots of fouls obviously favored OSU which is the better FT shooting team and only the shear volume of fouls committed by OSU (29) helped KU.
-
@joeloveshawks I grew up in Downers Grove, Although I don’t live there anymore, I still have to keep from physically threatening someone whenever the Bears are on!
-
@joeloveshawks your neural net must be complete. I can’t fault the support, just temper it. They’re learning. Like to see Perry show some of that emotion! Just a little.
-
Don’t have much time so here’s my quick take.
That game was a chore to watch. It was so slow, boring, a foul-fest, etc. Jamari Traylor may not have played well, but I really like the way he’s played lately. A big reason for that is because I think Perry Ellis is an empty uniform. Seriously, ponder this question: Does Perry Ellis even like playing basketball anymore? He was a better player as a freshman. He’s soft. He looks like he’s just going through the motions.
Thought we did a nice job of shutting down Forte. Graham and Selden played well defensively, and Frank was Frank. I’m falling in love. Landen Lucas must have vaseline on his hands at all times; he’s also soft under the basket. Thought Cliff was ok; vicious dunk. If Bill’s trying to prove a point to him by sitting him almost the whole second half, his point is getting tired. A slop-fest for sure, but a win nonetheless. RCJH! Have a good day everyone!
-
@jaybate-1.0 said:
But whenever he finds a team that is short enough to play inside out, and hold down the number of treys to <15, he plays inside out. Part of it is that he keeps trying to give his short bigs chances against guys their size to learn to play basic back to the basket post basketball. I suspect he keeps trying because he is hoping to find a game where the light goes on for one or two of the short bigs. It would help their self respect and confidence a lot of there was at least someone they could score inside on sometimes; that I suspect is what he believes.
I think this is exactly what’s going on. Self believes the safest winning strategy is to pound it inside, and he’s not going to give up on it. It’s not a bad strategy; we’re just really bad at executing it. It doesn’t bother me to see Self still working on it now because it’ll be another weapon in the arsenal if they get it figured out. Cliff is starting to get it, and I’m hopeful that Perry will get his mojo back. If he could start drawing some damn fouls at least, we can keep opponents bigs on the bench.
-
Anyone think Self is saving Cliff to breakout in later in the year the way Kelly has recently? Is Cliff just that far behind? Are there conditioning issues? We have heard injury talk (back, soreness, etc.). Is he not that good? Was this just a result of the T? Did he want to save him from the temptations you know Ford would throw at him? There has to be something going on because Alexander is too good of a player, too high profile a recruit to be spending this much time on the bench. 3 fouls. Has he ever had more than 3? That was the excuse early but let a guy foul out once. Let him learn to play with 3 or 4 because we may need him to come tourny time.
My secret hope is that the answer lies with the first question. Maybe Self knows Cliff will breakout if he just gives him the minutes and the scheme and he is waiting to unleash it vs someone soon. The leash is definitely tight on the big red dog. Let’s set him loose and see if he takes off!
-
I don’t believe Cliff is being saved by Self. The only thing he’s saving by not starting him is the possibility of the 2 quick early fouls. Defensively he’s still behind. Offensively he gives us the biggest momentum boosts with his lobs and dunks. He’s still learning the game and that’s okay
-
" I think a lot of us would like to see some of this attitude in the Validictorian from Witchita."
I know I would.
Perry’s softness is really starting to hold this TEAM back!
We have a team with a lot of “Chicago-tough” guys. Cliff, BamBam, Frank, Kelly, sometimes Wayne. Perry has become the odd-man-out. Imagine what the psyche of this team would be if Perry was another stud?
All these guys I mentioned… think about it… what other team in the country could win a street fight against us? Kentucky? ha… they are a joke. I know basketball isn’t street fighting, but actually it is. It is about swagger, toughness and will.
-
Now slayr, your playground side is coming out, and you know we live in the post play ground era.
And, yes, I know exactly what you mean. Rock Chalk!
-
Ha… true.
I’d have Perry “manned-up” in a week, if he visited my “Slayr’s Camp For The Swaggerless.”
He would have a few bumps and bruises, and he would thank me for the rest of his life!
-
@Wigs2 Sure, I think Selden could play in the NBA.
I love the “is it Self’s fault” question.
I have always felt that Self’s system negatively affects some players, and positively affects others. But it’s more complicated. I think the system puts a cap on what extremely talented perimeter players can do. It also helps guys not as talented on the perimeter. But I think his system helps post players and can really put a spotlight on what they can do.
The quote from the NBA scout last season I have posted a few times about Wiggins:
“In general, interesting kid. In fairness to him he played in a very restricted system at Kansas. All interchangeable parts with designated spots, a lot of structure. When he got the ball, there wasn’t a lot of room to create.”
Now that doesn’t mean that Self’s system hurt him in the final analysis … it may just mean it limited his production – emphasis on “may.” Maybe not. And obviously scouts are smart enough to figure that out.
Is Selden’s lack of production Self’s “fault”? I would say no. Selden’s went 2-7 last night. Self didn’t do anything to cause that in my opinion. Selden has had ample opportunities to hit threes. Selden gets many chances to drive and get lobs. Rarely does he finish the deal. Coaches need to put players in positions to succeed – I don’t see that Self isn’t doing that with Selden right now. Self may scheme our defense where steals are less likely, based on overplays, but Selden gets nothing in that category. He doesn’t rebound like you would expect. Others do find a way to rebound (Mason).
I do, however, think much of Ellis’ failure is Self’s fault. Not from the aspect of completing a play, but from a scheme that unreasonably continues to place Ellis in a position to fail, based on his skills and abilities. Coaches need to put players in positions to succeed. That isn’t happening right now for Ellis.
-
@HighEliteMajor said:
Others do find a way to rebound (Mason).
I wanted to say this for some time, so this is as good a place as any:
Doesn’t Mason guard the other team’s PG most of the time? And the PG is probably the last guy who is free to hit the offensive boards: he has to be ready to get back on D. So maybe Mason is on to something: his guy can never try to block him out, so he is a free agent to go unhindered for the defensive rebound.
Maybe this is not just a Mason thing, but a new wrinkle for any PG on defense - provided he is tough as nails and has no fear.
-
@ParisHawk It depends on each team’s rules. An example would be that the high man is primary. So the perimeter player nearest to the top of the key would have the primary responsibility. I never liked the PG being solely responsible, as that would necessitate him exiting regardless of position. But you make a good point. Perhaps Mason has more opportunities. I would also say that he has thus exploited those opportunities very well.
Who’s complaining about our small point guard now?
Louisville didn’t complain about theirs, and UConn didn’t about theirs – while hoisting the big prize.
Mason has gone from a question mark, to a main reason why we’re NCAA title-relevant.
-
@jaybate-1.0 Nice post dude! Man that game was awfully painful to watch and yet entertaining at the same time. Selden can still dunk! Wow!
Perry, man he keeps stinking things up, 5 to’s? and 4 in a row!? but yah he did give solid effort defensively and came up with a couple good hustle plays.
Oubre made me laugh when he nudged Cobbins and got pushed. Did ya’ll see his face? He was like, Whaaaat? I didnt do nuthin to that guy! Pity his 3pt shots werent falling, or his FT’s he probly would have score 20+
Cliff, man that flex after his gorilla slam, I didnt think that was Tech worthy. What a bs call.
Anyhow, I’ll see your 2 conference losses @jaybate-1.0 and raise you two more. WVU is playing lights out right now, gonna be hard to beat them in their place. Same with ISU and Texas. I’ll leave one loss undecided, cuz you just never know. But, I still think we Atleast share the conference title. But that opinion is subject to change. Will reassess after January.
-
Did you see Selden’s block? Much better than the dunk.
-
@benshawks08 Self said that he did not put Cliff back in the 2nd half because the team was playing well with Lucas in there. Lucas played good D and got some rebounds. But…he missed a layup and fumbled the ball under the basket also. Defense and rebounding mean a lot…that’s why Selden plays as much as he does even though he is not scoring.
