Big 12 projected to be top conference for second year in a row...
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For the second year in row, the Big 12 is expected to be the top basketball conference. Last year it sent and unprecedented 7 out of 10 (70%) of its teams to the dance and this year there will be at least 5 and as many as 7 dancing…
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@JayHawkFanToo Best conference on paper. In the NCAA tournament, the conference didn’t measure up.
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Being the top conference does not necessarily translate to success in the tournament. The tournament is all about match-ups and healthy dose of luck.
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Warning - Bleacher Report story. To me an article on BR is just as credible as any of our posts on here. Now with that out of the way… this article is obviously this guys opinion. There is no way that the BE is a better conference than the ACC and that’s just my opinion. Do you think if we gave 'Nova the choice of the BE or the ACC they’d pick the ACC because it’s a weaker conference and it would be easier to win??? I hate all the east coast bias but we can all agree that the ACC was a tough conference before the 'Ville and 'Cuse moved in, now it’s stacked. Since 2000 the current ACC schools have been to 13 final fours. The Big East 5. The last one to make it was Butler and before that 'Nova in '09. Can someone ask this dude if he is aware of the realignment that took place?? Because without UConn (4 FF with 3 NCs, also won NC in '99), Louisville, Syracuse and even Cincinnati they’re a shell of a conference.
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Here’s a question: Which makes a conference appear stronger? More teams in that don’t advance far or fewer teams in but they all make some noise??
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@KUSTEVE ISU and KU hopes were killed w/season-ending injuries. The rest… Let’s just say big 12 kills my bracket.
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**Make sure you read the criteria used for evaluation. **Yes. some conferences such as the SEC have a couple of teams (Florida and UK) that will usually be top 5-10, but the rest of the conference is not very good. Same thing with the ACC, it was good when it was smaller and a majority of the teams were good; now, it is a big conference with a a few good team and several poor teams.
if you look at the Big 12, 7 out of 10 teams made it to the dance and West Virginia was borderline. Yes, perhaps we do not have top teams but the majority of teams (70%) were good enough to make it to the dance, no other conference comes close.
For example, look a the SEC- Big 12 challenge. the big 12 won 7-3 and that included a rare loss by KU. How about the Big 12 - PAC 12 hardwood series? The Big 12 won the last 2 years 9-3 and 8-4.
Again, the article did not rank which conference did well in the tournament but which conference was strongest top to bottom. BTW, just about every ranking site including KenPom and Sagarin had the Big 12 as the top conference at the end of the regular season last year.
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I think you have to evaluate depth and strength separately. The Big 12 is very deep. However, beyond KU and ISU (and perhaps Texas) I doubt there is much strength. At the same time, only Tech and TCU will be bad. The SEC is strong with Florida and Kentucky, but not deep. The Pac12 isn’t strong or deep. Big 10 may be deep, but I doubt it will be strong. Big East will be strong, but without depth. Strength is created by teams that can win it all, or at least go deep in the tourney. Depth is having lots of teams that can go to the tourney.
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@JayHawkFanToo : I read the criteria. ACC is penalized for having more teams. You can’t argue that they diluted their product though with their recent additions. Syracuse. Louisville. And even Notre Dame have all made the tourney in recent years with Louisville winning it two years ago. Give me two teams that do good in the big twelve before 8 teams that embarass the Big12.
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Also the ACC with 5 in out of 15 is 33% vs 3/10 for BE. The BE may have fewer teams that don’t make the tourney (7 vs 10) but they do have more teams that’ll be watching the tourney at home percentage wise. Last year the top two teams in SEC were better than the top two for us which is really what matters. Who cares if our bottoms feeders are better than theirs? Does anyone know if TCU or Texas tech beat their respective SEC school? Probably not. But everyone knows KU lost to Florida.
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Syracuse, Louisville, North Carolina, Duke – our conference doesn’t come close to matching up. As @Kip_McSmithers said, kind of seems like a bigger conference gets penalized. Maybe we have less lowlifes?
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My opinion is that past performance helps (7 teams in last years tourney) and the coaching pedigree across the conference does the rest.
Hoiberg has gained respect, Kruger and Huggins are veterans, Barnes and Weber have final four experience. Tubby Smith and Bill Self have national championships. Not sure how respected Drew is… But Ford isn’t thought to be a lightweight.
Put that group against the other conferences and it’s pretty favorable.
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@Kip_McSmithers Sorry dude but I feel the ACC is way over rated. Wait till the season starts and ESPN starts it’s the ACC is the greatest. I have no doubt you will join me.
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Shepherds need sheep.
Managed Bettor Expectation Hypothesis:
Big gaming needs suckers.
Big media creates suckers.
Suckers betting as they are told enable more changing the line to get more informed betters to bet.
More betting by informed and uninformed equals more “vig” sooner.
More “vig” sooner equals house solvency and minimum yield reached faster.
House solvency and minimum yield reached faster means more time and opps for rigging game spreads with refs for big kills in betting against media shaped expectations to achieve profit maximization.
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P.S.: when you can generate huge betting amounts in the EST with hype, you have to create counter hype in the CST balance the betting.
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@DoubleDD : Not disagreeing that the network over hypes the ACC but I’m not so addicted to the KU Kool aid to think that we’d still have this amazing conference title streak if we had those teams (Duke, UNC)in our conference instead. Duke has one title and UNC two since our run started. That’s more titles than Big12 -KU FF appearances. Thanks a lot mizzou.
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Again, the analysis is about the conferences as a whole and not a few (good or even outstanding) teams in isolation. Yes, the ACC has more teams and the bottom teams dilute the conference as a whole…that was the jest of the ranking. The Big 12 might not have superior teams, although I would argue that KU falls in that category the majority of the time, but the majority of the teams are solid with normally 2-3 in the average or below category, and thus the overall strength of the conference.
This article is not the only one that has this conclusion; essentially all the computerized,objective rankings that look at the numbers without the subjective bias, unanimously had the BIG 12 as the top conference at the end of the regular season last season. The ACC as a basketball conference has been overrated for while now; it used to be the top basketball conference at one time but that is no longer true, particularly since lately they are making a push on football. They do have a few good teams but they have greater number of poor teams that bring the overall conference strength down.
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@Kip_McSmithers why is it drinking the KU Kool aide? For crying out loud KU has a won 10 conference championships in a row. Enjoy it.
That’s like well you won the NC but you didn’t play Duke, UK, or UNC so it doesn’t really count.
Whether you want to drink the kool aide or not The Big 12 is pretty good, and I be willing to bet not one other school in the country could’ve won the last 10 big 12 conference championships in a row.
Something KU did. b)
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How did it work out for Duke and UNC in the last tournament? Duke lost to Mercer in the first round. UNC barely beat #11 seed Providence by 2 points in the first round and lost to Iowas State in the second round…and how has UNC done against KU in the tournament lately? Also keep in mind that UNC was in the NIT as recently as 2010 where it was beaten by Dayton…when is the last time KU was not in the NCAA?..it currently has the longest streak of making it to the tournament with 25, Duke is a distant second with 19.
Again, this is not an assessment of Conference strength over the last 15, 10, 5, or even 3 years. The Big 12 was ranked at the top last year and it is projected as the top conference for the upcoming season. These are snap shots in time and not long running historical movies.
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@DoubleDD : Just saying that even if the network over hypes the ACC it still doesn’t mean it’s not a tough conference. I’m proud of the fact that KU has bragging rights against other Big12’ers and no I don’t think any other school could have duplicated our feat of being consistently good. But do you think we could duplicate the same feat in the Big10 or ACC??
@JayHawkFanToo : Never said the Big12 wasn’t tops. Said the BE wasn’t better than the ACC. The Bleacher Report MCBB early preseason polls ranked by their so called experts have Big12’ers KSU at 18, OU at 15, ISU at 13, Texas at 11, and KU at 3. They ranked 'Nova 12, the only BE team in their poll. For the ACC they had Louisville at 10, Virginia at 9, Duke at 6 and the UNC at 5. That’s what my beef is all about. How can the author of the title article think that the BE is better than the ACC when they’ve got 4 teams in the preseason poll? When are we hanging the banner for the best conference RPI??
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@Kip_McSmithers I don’t know what KU would have done the last ten years in another conference. Mostly likely they wouldn’t of have won 10 consecutive, however it’s not a fact they wouldn’t. Also as we agree, no other school could have done what KU has done playing in the Big 12. Not saying you, I just don’t understand how somebody can come to the conclusion that the Big 12 is weak because KU wins the conference title every year??
As for who is better the ACC or the Old Big East? Well they’re kind of one in the same to me.
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@DoubleDD "Not saying you, I just don’t understand how somebody can come to the conclusion that the Big 12 is weak because KU wins the conference title every year?? "
That’s a far cry from the original subject, which was this : **"For the second year in row, the Big 12 is expected to be the top basketball conference."
1- We WEREN’T the best conference by any rational metric last year. ( Please, don’t get me started on what a fraud the RPI system really is.)
2- The MWC WASN’T the “best conference” two years ago, when they were anointed with the same “best conference” title, and all 7 teams except 1 lost their first game in the tournament.
3- The fact we had 70% of the league make the tournament is nice to know, but the goal is to WIN in the tournament, and the league was pummeled in the tournament.
4- If you tried to run a take that the Big 12 is the best conference in basketball by anybody outside of Big 12 land, you would be laughed at - the same way I was laughed at last year, when our “best conference” was exposed in the tournament. You want to claim you’re the best? Fine, then win some games when it counts.
5- NONE of this discussion has anything to do with our amazing streak of conference titles, even though that argument has been tried to show that not proclaiming the BIG 12 as the best is somehow “dissing” our wonderful streak.
I refuse, after last year’s debacle, to get sucked into the “best conference” meme. I understand the compulsion to find a metric that makes us “feel” like we’re the best. The best metric is found on the court in March. Beyond that, I think we’re whistling in the dark.
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I think it is important for the B12 to make a better showing in March. In recent years, our RPI as a conference is very strong. If it wasn’t for mathematical tools used to computing RPIs I’m pretty sure we would be under-appreciated as a conference.
The one big area of focus for our conference should be to show better in March. Last year we had misfortune. It was a big blow when we lost Embiid, and when ISU lost Niang. Hard to say the outcome if those two guys would have stayed healthy.
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I will answer each one of your point one at the time:
1- We WEREN’T the best conference by any rational metric last year. ( Please, don’t get me started on what a fraud the RPI system really is.)
What exactly do you think the RPI is? By definition, the RPI is an objective (that means without bias) and rational way to measure performance and compare teams. There are several way to do this and the better known are Pomeroy, Sagarin and Massey and they all had the Big 12 at the top. Please note that this methods look at more than just wins and loses; they look at the team strength of schedule, offense and defense, margin of victory and even home court advantage, not only for a team but also for the opponents and the opponents’ opponents and so on. This is not something that can be calculated by hand or in your head but something that only a computer can do as it involves literally millions of interconnected events that have to be updated after each game. The polls, on the other hand, are 100% subjective estimates that more often than not are based on the computer rankings.
2- The MWC WASN’T the “best conference” two years ago, when they were anointed with the same “best conference” title, and all 7 teams except 1 lost their first game in the tournament.
I would like to know where you got this information since I don’t recall the MWC ever being in the talk for top confernce.
3- The fact we had 70% of the league make the tournament is nice to know, but the goal is to WIN in the tournament, and the league was pummeled in the tournament.
This makes absolutely no sense. Since there are automatic qualifier from smaller conferences that would not be even in the top 100, the majority of the field is select from the top 50 teams. The fact that the conference sent 7 teams means that all seven teams were ranked in the top 50, a claim that no other conference in the land can make; even our automatic qualifier, i.e. the winner of the Conference Tournament, ISU, was a number 3 seed, so you can not even say (unlike other conferences) that our automatic qualifier would not have made it to the tournament otherwise.
If the best indicator of conference strength is winning the National Title, and if Wichita State (they could have) makes a magic run in the last or previous tournament (they made to the final four), would you have said that the Missouri Valley is the top conference in the country, even when they sent only one team to the dance and the second best team in the conference was nor even ranked in the top 100? Do you really thing that UConn was the best team last season? Before the start of the tournament, UConn was not ranked in the top 20, neither on the AP nor on the Coaches poll. The NCAA title by no means indicated which was the best team in any particular year (and by extension conference), it simply indicates which team got talent AND luck to win 6 games. Do you really think that KU was the best team in 1988? I certainly don’t think so and I am a die hard KU fan; however, there were several other years when KU was THE best team in college ball and yet it did not win the tournament.
4- If you tried to run a take that the Big 12 is the best conference in basketball by anybody outside of Big 12 land, you would be laughed at - the same way I was laughed at last year, when our “best conference” was exposed in the tournament. You want to claim you’re the best? Fine, then win some games when it counts.
Again, you are tying strength of conference to winning in the NCAA. The year before last (and almost last year as well) UK won the title but there is no one with half a brain that would claim the SEC was the strongest conference, now way, no how, no ma’am. I periodically talk basketball with die hard and knowledgeable basketball fans mostly on the East Cost (ACC and BE fans) and they are always impressed with the Big 12 overall strength.
5- NONE of this discussion has anything to do with our amazing streak of conference titles, even though that argument has been tried to show that not proclaiming the BIG 12 as the best is somehow “dissing” our wonderful streak.
The streak and the conference strength while not mutually exclusive, they are not completely unrelated either. The fact that the Conference has been picked as the top, only helps make KU run more impressive.
I refuse, after last year’s debacle, to get sucked into the “best conference” meme. I understand the compulsion to find a metric that makes us “feel” like we’re the best. The best metric is found on the court in March. Beyond that, I think we’re whistling in the dark.
Nobody is trying to find a metric that places the conference at the top. It is what it is. I would agree with you if one lonely analyst (and KU/Conference fan) manipulates the numbers to favor the team/conference. However, when all the unbiased metrics come up with the same or similar result, it hard to say that were are “trying to find” a metric to fit our desired outcome, wouldn’t you agree?
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@KUSTEVE you can believe what you want to believe. However I think it’s quite sad that you want to take away from what KU has accomplished. You know winning 10 conferences in a row? So if UK, or Duke wins 10 conferences in a row are we going to dismiss their conference. Ah hell no they are east coast baby.
Maybe that doesn’t mean anything to you? Are you going to demean a KU championship if they don’t play a east coast power? Nah right?
The Big 12 is pretty tough. Don’t forget everybody has to play everybody in a home and home. That doesn’t happen in these other conferences. You know play at home and then play them on the road?
Your whole argument is based of tournament success. When are you people going to realize in a one and done lose one game and go home tournament the best team doesn’t always win.
If you want to crown all east coast conferences and teams as the best then by all means, but know this I will be rooting against.
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Kansas was selected to represent the United States in the 2015 World University Games, the school announced during a press conference on Tuesday afternoon.
Wonder why we were picked?
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Are they projecting any Big (?) 12 teams to make it to the Final Four?
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KU, ISU and Texas are pre-season top 10, so I would think they would be considered final four candidates as well.
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@JayHawkFanToo You have accepted voodoo math, and there’s no talking you out of it. I understand - I used to smoke that one myself. The Big 12 did have the highest percent of teams last year to make the tournament. Which, along with $3.00, will buy you a cup of coffee.To me, it is a meaningless accomplishment without success in the tournament. I used to be a wrestler back in the day, and my grandmother made it to one of my matches where I was wrestling the 2 time defending Kansas state champion ( I was a Sophomore-he was a Senior). I had lost 22-2( the 2 points I scored were for the two times he let me up, so he could try and pin me again.) And after the match, my grandmother leaned over to me, and said, “your uniform looked a lot better than that other guys”. Your argument reminds me of Grandma.
**@DoubleDD Ok, so somehow if I don’t believe the Big 12 is the best BB conference, I am somehow slighting KU…is that the gist?
The Big 12 isn’t the best bb conference at the moment, though we’ve had years where we were clearly the best conference in basketball. During our run of conference championships, Texas has made the Final Four, Baylor has made several Elite 8’s, and of course, who could ever forget Misery’s amazing victory over Norfolk St…oh wait a second… Misery stunning loss as a #2 seed in 2012 against the 15th seed ( had to throw that one in). You keep mixing up love of KU with love of conference. They aren’t one and the same.
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@JayHawkFanToo : @KUSTEVE is referring to the 2012-2013 season in which the Mountain West Conference was ranked as the number one conference RPI wise… Here’s the proof --> CBS Sports RPI Rankings
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Just because you think it is “vooodo math” and you don’t understand it, it does not mean it is not a valid and defensible system. One last time, the story and this thread are NOT about tournament success, they are about which conference is the strongest top to bottom. Your argument is a red herring that does not address the topic at hand and you keep bringing it up even when your premise has been shown to be a canard.
Good teams lose to inferior team all the time in the tournament, it is called an upset. You bring up MU’s loss to Norfolk State a couple of years ago and while on their way out of the conference, but you don’t mention Duke (the best team in the ACC) losing to Mercer just this year, or UNC trip to the NIT a few season ago. Since you insist on Tournament success, just this past season, how many ACC teams made it to the tournament? 6 out 15 (40%) and how many Big 12 teams did ? 7 out of 10 (70%). Now, how many ACC made it to the Sweet 16? The answer is 1. In comparison, how many Big 12 teams made to the Sweet 16? The answer is 2 or twice as many as the ACC. By your this criteria, the ACC could never be considered a strong conference. The ACC used to be the premier basketball conference a long time ago. when they were a primarily basketball conference, but since they increased the membership and emphasized football, they are no longer the premier basketball conference.
It is obvious that we do not agree on the subject so any further posts would be a waste of time and bandwidth.
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@KULA : KU is the only consistently ranked Big12’er in the top 10 (around 3-6 in the ones I can find) early preseason brackets. Texas makes an appearance as number 9 on one but in the others they’re lower double digits (11-13). Iowa State hovers around 13 to 17 range. Other Big12 teams are OU that’s and KSU. OU is in the mid to late teens with KSU on one bracket in that range but completely missing from the others. Probably ranked in the others as 26 or 27 on those brackets. So to answer your question KU is a possible FF team with Texas and ISU as outside chances.
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@KUSTEVE actually I’m not mixing up anything. All I said was the Big 12 is tough, and winning 10 consecutive conference championships is quite impressive. You’re the one trying to apply rocket science to has the best conference. When did you become an expert on which conference is the toughest?
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I hope you bring that same energy and focus for a national title all season long!
We all agree that we need to find a way to perform at our best in March… and it is a long season, so keep pushing and pulling on everything to keep us focused on the big prize.
I don’t know where I would put our conference, strength wise, with the other conferences. I would rather focus on winning in March. I do think we have some good things brewing in our conference, like ISU and Texas should both be strong teams in March.
We can’t go backwards and change anything, but we can look ahead and try to make things better. And we should because we all agree that Kansas and our conference should be performing better in March!
I know one thing… I’m not going to pat our conference on the back until we start performing better in March.
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One thing to think about, is that these projections are made by people outside of the Big 12. The fact that KU is in the Big 12 is one of the major reasons that the Big 12 is the toughest conference.
Imagine that your another school looking to join a conference, and you want to be able to win the conference title. Would you pick the Big 12? With KU’s dominance for the last decade, you would probably pick another conference to join. Plus, if you were worried about your regular season record to be good enough to get to dance in March, you wouldn’t want to have to play a true round robin with any of the top 4 teams in the Big 12.
Honestly, the rest of the country should feel sorry for the lower half of our conference! Because after they go through the gauntlet of conference play, their records look pretty bad.
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@jayhawkbychoice To me the round robin is what makes the Big 12 so tough. There is no ducking anyone. You’re playing them at home and at their house.
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I agree. despite all the talk about the super-conferences, I still think that 10 is the ideal number of members for a conference; 18 basketball games home and away, and 9 football game alternating home and away.
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So I guess the answer is, even though the Big (?) 12 is rated the top conference, they will probably fail to place a team in the Final Four.
Again.
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@Crimsonorblue22 Probably has something to do with their shoe contract, lol
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@JayHawkFanToo I have read this entire thread & I think it is really great that so many are slapping & banging each other around over such a simplistic statement as this thread title. Guys are srambling for loose balls, banging for rebounds, & fighting for minutes (copy). It clearly only means one thing to me & one thing only. The juices are freely flowing & all our guys (rats) are tired of beating up on each other over & over & ready for the tip-off to open the can of whoopass on a different opponent.
…Two more days to LATE NIGHT !!
…ROCK CHALK !!
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@globaljaybird
Amen brother, Amen indeed…
Hopefully our enthusiasm is transmitted to the players and we are rewarded with an even better season that what we normally get.
