My crisis of faith in Bill
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I appreciate you all supporting me through this unsettling time.
A couple wins and team growth and I should snap out of it.
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Ya I have zero faith in Bill Self at this point in time.
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Sure is crazy that the topic of questioning Bill Self is coming up this season.
Something has pushed some to ponder his coaching.
Is it just KJ and Harris, or are there other concerning factors to you @approxinfinity ?
I think it’s natural to worry about his health after the scare last year. What else?
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The fact that we’re not 16 - 0 and haven’t beaten every opponent by 40 is why I have completely lost faith in Billy Boy. He’s not even trying.
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@rockchalkjayhawk Self’s recruiting has declined, despite a sizable NIL budget, and not because he doesnt get coveted transfers.
I dont think he knows what he is doing in the portal.
And I think the 4, 5 or 6 year guys he has recruited have holes in their game that he increasingly cannot scheme for.
Timberlake was a shooter who cant shoot. Ditto Storr (though I dont think he is as broken as Timberlake was, he seems to be getting much less run)
Hunter is an abysmal defender, whom he is pairing with a 4 who isnt a rim protector or a good rebounder. Dedric was a bad defender, Hunter is worse.
I wonder if we need a coach who doesnt favor upperclassmen or people who have been in the program in terms of minute distribution simply because of seniority, because your younger talents WILL TRANSFER OUT and TRANSFERS AND RECRUITS WILL NO LONGER COME.
With all the money in the world how are we not recruiting a God roster and making the parts work?
Why are we paying millions of dollars for players who cant or wont play a lick of D?
I am becoming convinced its because good players, or specifically good players with a complete skillset dont want to work for Bill Self and have options.
College Basketball is entirely a business and Kansas basketball is Risky Business.
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Like I said… I might be wrong, this too might pass. I’m just not sure any more.
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This is not a new thing.
I’m sure there are plenty of examples of this, but two pretty dramatic instances that I can remember were in 2015 and in 2016.
The first was when we were coming off of years of having a dominant big man (Kaun, Jackson, Aldrich, Withey, T-Rob, Embiid), and in 2015 we just didn’t. We had a freshman who was showing immense promise and Self just wouldn’t give him a chance. He was FIXATED on playing Jamari Traylor and Landen Lucas over Cliff Alexander. Looking back at some of the box scores, it wasn’t just the eye test, Cliff was phenomenal. We would kill for that kind of production this season. Self stayed with Lucas and Traylor. Neither of which could score. Neither of which were greater rebounders. But they were in his circle of trust.
Come to think of it, Self did the same thing in 2017 with Cheik Diallo. He hardly ever played more than a few minutes here and there, while Landen Lucas got absolutely bodied by Jordan Bell from Oregon in the Elite 8. Bell had 8 blocks and 13 rebounds over Lucas in that game. It reminded me of Brady Morningstar in the Elite 8 against VCU (hey, another example!). Brady looked like a middle school boy playing amongst men. He didn’t belong on the same court.
The other major example I can think was the 2016 season. That was the year where yet again, we didn’t have a dominant post presence. But we did have some phenomenal shooters. THAT was our strength. But that went against Self’s basketball philosophy. This was the season where Self dropped his now infamous “fool’s gold” line about three pointers. It was maddening. Landen Lucas and Jamari Traylor were yet again our primary 5 men. They were the same players as the year before. I remember we lost at Iowa State and the fanbase was starting to get pissed about Self’s constant criticism of our three point shots. We kept trying to force it inside to a talentless big man. It was like banging your head against a brick wall. And yet, once Self dropped the criticism. Stopped benching guys for shooting threes…guess what? We won 17 games in a row, falling short to a great Villanova team that went on to win the title (I’m stilled pissed they were the two seed in our bracket that year–they were 33-5 for god’s sake…the same record as us!).
My point is, this is nothing new. Self has always been this way. I saw someone say this sort of attitude has probably cost KU a couple more titles. Holding more talented players back because of some BS circle of trust philosophy that plays guys like Brady Morningstar over guys like Elijah Johnson. Landen Lucas over Cheik Diallo. Jamari Traylor over Cliff Alexander. This shortcoming is becoming a flashing red light in this current era. It was one thing when Self was doing this knowing that he had another year or 2 to build some of these guys up. Not only can Self not break a guy down in their first year to build them back up in their second, third, or fourth year for fear that they might transfer, but he sure as hell can’t do it over the course of 6-8 months with a transfer rental.
I love Bill Self. There will certainly be a statue of him in front of the Fieldhouse one day. But I’m starting to get very worried that he can’t be successful in this current era. I hope I’m wrong. Keep in mind, that Dajuan and KJ are holdovers from seasons where the NCAA investigation greatly impacted recruiting. Maybe next year is the beginning of a new era in KU basketball. But the memories of the 2011, 2015, 2017 seasons loom large. Those were good KU teams whose ceilings were lowered dramatically by Self’s stubbornness. With KJ out the next two games, we’ll see if this team can get up off the mat, and if Self can adapt to the situation.
I hope this was as therapeutic for you guys reading this as it was for me writing it!
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@approxinfinity He’s literally said that they don’t recruit for fit, they just recruit the most talented player. That is astonishing.
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Many interesting and some valid points have been raised. It’s so easy to look for mistakes, issues, etc. in coaches and players, especially when we certainly have been spoiled throughout the years. Chemistry is such a huge part of any team; this team right now doesn’t seem to have tons of it. Also seem to be similar to the past couple years in that we’re not very mentally or physically tough. Hard to believe that no one has brought up how bad David McCormick was several years ago and how HCBS protected him. Too soft to be a big winner. Seem to recall Remy was not too highly thought of either for a good part of the year.
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@MoonwalkMafia i loved it. Well said man!
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Self never lost his faith in big Dave and he was right, we were gonna need him. He was tough too, no whining about his foot! To many whiners on here about big dave, sickening.
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@nuleafjhawk LMAO you silly , silly boy lol – you so silly
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@approxinfinity – Was listening to a K/State pod cast this afternoon, see what they were saying about the game and they were talking, you remembe sky walker for them way back when don’t you ?- - thought he had a good point he was talking about NIL and how players have become more about money then wanting to represent the name on the front and the back of their Jersey. He was saying these guys don’t give a rats ass like they did back in the day - -it’s all about the Money now.
They don’t have it in them where they want to rebound or play defense, they just want the money. It was like he was saying when him an Beasaley was playing Clent Stewert was also playing and they talked about leadership- - if a team came down and scored three times in a row, timeout-- -he said a lot of times Coach would just walk away from the huddle and Clent would say ok now , now we need three stops in a row, being that leader.
So Question WHO IS KU’S LEADER ? - -Do we have a leader ?- -Against Iowa State , Devon Dotson tweeted out KU does not have a killer dog to close out a game. - -Do we have a closer ? - -That Dog ? - --Frickity- -frack HELL NO we don’t-- if w do where is he ? -Who exactly on this team is a leader ?- -Sure the hell not Dickinson- -Not Juan-- so who is it > – Where is he at ?
Like Walker was saying the players now just don’t care , like he said back when him and the crew Beasley was playing they played hard because of their love of the game- Today – pssst they don’t give a rats ass- -Again this NIL bullshit has ruined the game of College sports
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@Crimsonorblue22 Got to agree with you here, Dave in his late JR year and then his Sr season was solid -rebounded petty decent -and always good for 9-10 points per, which is all w really needed as long as the others were carrying their share in the game
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Well, there is certainly high drama right now, and I enjoy hearing some of the less belabored points of criticism.
Dramatic is good and I am all for a glorious finish to the season. But I think as you seem to be alluding to @MoonwalkMafia, one could argue that some of Bill Self’s greatest successes have hinged on having his hand forced by circumstances out of his control, and then adapting to it.
He has made more out of less with some of our more limited teams, less out of some of our more talented teams, and champions and runners up in 2022 and 2012 out of two teams where the talent he had was used to their max potential in the tourney.
It should not be a surprise to anyone that he sticks to his habits given the amount of success he has had with them.
But I do hope that KJs absence will force him to adapt because he is remarkably adaptable given how stubborn and resistant to change he is.
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@SlimShaddy54 BS on players not caring! Juan and KJ love KU, they came here before the NIL.
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@Crimsonorblue22 Sure. Dave was an interesting exception, though. He showed some real promise on a bad team in 2021. In 2022 though? He took a step back. His scoring average dipped quite a bit. Let’s not rewrite history, he really struggled.
Now, that being said, I don’t give a crap about the regular season given what he did in the tournament. And I’ll fight anyone who says his number shouldn’t be retired because Ochai won the MOP in the Final 4. Dave McCormack won KU the national championship. In almost every way that changes how he’s remembered. But over the course of the previous 30 games he really struggled.
Bringing up Remy, though…we should hang his picture at the top of this message board on this topic. Do we all have amnesia? Bill Self hated Remy Martin. He refused to play him. That was the case in the exhibition games. Bill Self was forced to play Remy Martin and it resulted in a championship. That wasn’t Bill Self knowing which buttons to press, he had no choice. The guy he was playing 30 mpg at point guard couldn’t score and we needed a spark. Remy carried us through that win over Providence, and there’s a case to be made that Remy was actually the MVP of the national championship.
I don’t know that I’m really trying to make a strong argument for anything. I’m consigned to our fate at this point, but I guess you’re right @approxinfinity that’s probably more or less what I’m getting at. I’ve watched KU long enough at this point to recognize the trends. And this is a fun therapeutic thing to do on Friday night while I watch the Sopranos lol.
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@MoonwalkMafia I don’t know who the hell this guy is but he articulates everything I’ve been saying but way better
It wasn’t just Brady it was Tyrel as well
Why Bill does this I will never know but it’s crazy to think but he would have won more had he played the best offensive players, adjusted his scheme and not favored some lesser players
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@MoonwalkMafia Landen Lucas was a better player than Cheick Diallo. Jamari was better than Cliff. Bill gave both Cheick and Cliff ample chances. At one point he started Cliff over Jamari for a few games just in hopes it would jumpstart Cliff and help him reach his potential. It didn’t. Sometimes players just don’t perform and need to take a back seat to others with less talent but who are just better players.
None of this is to say Bill is perfect or that he has never made a wrong decision in whom to play. But neither Cliff nor Cheick was benched for a lesser player just because of “trust” or anything like that.
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@kuballin10 I’m an old head. One of the originals from when there was an initial departure from KUSports.com to this site.
There are a lot of KU players over the years that fall into the category we’ve been talking about (Traylor, Lucas, Morningstar, even Marcus Garrett at times)…but I liked Tyrel Reed. He was a Kansas guy that was a 41 percent 3 point shooter. What I wouldn’t give for anyone on our team to shoot that well.
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@kuballin10 We went something like 35-3 with Brady and Tyrel starting as seniors. I don’t think there is any reason to doubt Bill’s decision to start them. If we really want to look at situations where Self played the wrong guys, I think not playing Naadir Tharpe enough in 2013 (I know that sounds weird, but Tharpe was the only true PG that year and we needed that) and not playing Andrew White III enough when he was here were mistakes.
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@Jhawk69 Those guys were never given the same opportunity of Traylor or KJ or Juan
Had they I think it’s obvious those guys would have helped the team more than the lower level guys playing above them because “Self trusted them”
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@Jhawk69 Yeah “Frank wasn’t ready” yet we got bounced in the round of 32 and Self was playing frankamp more minutes in desperation
Another point of complete roster mis-usage that from October to March Self still couldn’t figure out the best pg on the roster (Mason)
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@Jhawk69 Then why don’t their stats reflect it? Cliff averaged almost as twice as much scoring of either and outrebounded both of them. Even looking at totals he was clearly the better option than either of them only playing about 2/3 of the minutes played compared to Traylor and pretty much the same as Lucas. And as far as the games started…one was against Temple when we got blown out, and the other 5 were his last 5 games at KU, which suggests that Self probably realized who gave us the best chance.
I’m not gonna sit here and act like Cliff didn’t have his problems. He clearly did. That’s why he didn’t even finish out the season. But at the time it was clear he was the better option. I’ll give you Diallo, he probably didn’t show enough. But he also averaged 7.5 mpg. At the time it was frustrating because we all knew what Lucas’ ceiling was. Diallo’s was much higher.
I watched every minute of KU bball during those years and, I’m sorry, Landen Lucas wasn’t very good. He was serviceable. He was a nice kid. He was in some of my classes at KU. But he wasn’t the caliber of player we see very often here. I don’t think he would’ve started for any other team in the Big 12 at the time.
I agree with you about both takes on Tharpe, White, and Reed. I honestly liked Tharpe. I thought he was better than most KU fans remember. White was a good player too. He looked good when he was on the floor too. He would’ve been a great guy to have for 4 years. And I’ll never say a bad word about Reed. When @kuballin10 kept saying Tyrel I thought there must’ve been another Tyrel that I forgot about lol.
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@MoonwalkMafia Cliff averaged 2 more points and 1 more rebound than Jamari with approximately the same amount of minutes. Cliff was also a HUGE liability on defense. Jamari wasn’t a great rim protector but was still miles better than Cliff.
As for Cheick vs Landen, Landen scored more ppg although Cheick had more points per minute. That is where Cheick’s advantages stop. Landen was clearly a better rebounder, a better post defender, had a better shooting percentage, fouled less, and turned the ball over less.
I am not saying Landen was great. I would have loved for Cheick to play great and take the starting spot, making Landen a solid backup. But Cheick was not good enough. He had tons of potential, but was a project. He should have stuck around a few years honestly.
If I recall correctly, for the first half of the 2016 season, we were playing musical chairs at the 5-spot. Sometimes it was Cheick, sometimes Bragg, sometimes Lucas, sometimes Mickelson. We struggled at times because of it. Then, when we settled on Landen, we started playing much better. He wasn’t great, but he was good enough, unlike the other options.
That’s my take anyways. Interested in hearing all of your thoughts.
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@MoonwalkMafia Reed hit a big shot against missery that we are all forever grateful for and was a great moment for the local kid
However, he and Brady’s shooting were the reason we lost against vcu. That game haunts me
2/21 from deep….we were the best team that year
Same with 2016 nova we were the best team that year as well but didn’t deliver in the tourney.
https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/boxscore/_/gameId/310862305
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@SlimShaddy54 Good point. A true leader will not only take control of things but will not be afraid to get in a teammate’s face (literally &/or figuratively). I definitely do not see that attribute. Easy to talk a good game and leadership but extremely difficult to actually do it.
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@Jhawk69 Wasn’t there something about some of the other players telling HCBS they wanted Landen?
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@kuballin10 It is technically possible that Cliff, or Cheick or Josh Selby could have helped us but it is by no means “obvious”. There is no evidence that they would have and it is pure speculation to say that they would have. In fact, I think they would have made our seasons worse had they played more (and there is evidence to support this).
As for our loss in the round of 32 to Stanford, I actually agree Frank probably should have played more that season. (though this is debatable, freshman Frank was not the same beast as senior Frank) But in that game he actually played more minutes than Frankamp and it is pretty clear we lost because Embiid was injured and Wiggins disappeared. I don’t think minutes distribution has much to do with it.
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@COHawk Yes!
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@Crimsonorblue22 - the MAJORITY of the players today are all about the money. You names TWO players at KU- I can name THREE without evening having to try and think about it. Do you really think for one second that players like the # 1 recruit this coming Season AJ/ Ba would seriously commit to BYU without BYU throwing limitless NIL at him he would land there ? - - Coleman Hawkins would be at K/State ? - -and even Dickinson here ? - -pssst come on surely your not going to say that – The amount of players in it for the NIL and NIL only far out weighs anything such as you quote BS they don’t give a rats ass and is ruining the College game. I would be willing to bet any amount for every ONE player you name for the " love of the school "-- there would be people who could tell you there is THREE that’s playing for the NIL & NIL only. I wasn’t pointing out this pin pointing out KU although we have our 7’2 sloth Dickinson raking in the NIL, sure I’m sure every school might have that one player that LOVES the school, but then you have the others at that same school that is there only for the money.
Your in the vast minority if you truly think this isn’t the case by far. It’s not me making this up many , many others will tell you the same, College Basketball of the earlier 2’000 is GONE those days/players never exist any longer, it’s turned into one huge meat market and the game you use to see is history
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@MoonwalkMafia Ronnie Kellogg could challenge Tyrel. – seen many Saturdays where Ronnie and Pony could light it up
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For starters, we probably don’t have as much money as people think relative to other programs.
Second, I thought some people were leaving, but here they are.
I’m intrigued to see what happens going forward this year and how things change without KJ. Then next year we are looking at a completely different core.
Obviously I don’t think this year is a title caliber team. That’s disappointing sure.
Bill is a really good recruiter, it’s going to be a fafo moment once he actually does retire.
I also like how all this is being said when KU has a ranked team, #7 on KP. I can only imagine the discourse when the next coach has us unranked/on the tournament bubble. Oh boy.
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Cliff Alexander played more minutes than Landen Lucas, for reference. 492 to 485. This was despite missing some time. He played 17.6 mpg when available.
@MoonwalkMafia said in My crisis of faith in Bill:
@approxinfinity He’s literally said that they don’t recruit for fit, they just recruit the most talented player. That is astonishing.
I believe he has said this several times over the years. I do think that needs to change.
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@MoonwalkMafia said in My crisis of faith in Bill:
Bringing up Remy, though…we should hang his picture at the top of this message board on this topic. Do we all have amnesia? Bill Self hated Remy Martin. He refused to play him. That was the case in the exhibition games. Bill Self was forced to play Remy Martin and it resulted in a championship. That wasn’t Bill Self knowing which buttons to press, he had no choice. The guy he was playing 30 mpg at point guard couldn’t score and we needed a spark. Remy carried us through that win over Providence, and there’s a case to be made that Remy was actually the MVP of the national championship.
Remy played 26.5 mpg in the non-con, then he got banged up in the last non-con game against Nevada. Bill was playing him plenty. While he continued to play for a bit after the knee thing, he wasn’t the same player after that until he healed up some more.
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I wonder seriously how much longer Coach will be here?- - I men look natives getting restless, , Questioning his Coaching ability/decisions. This whole NIL fiasco how it’s changing the game - -we have seen some of the Foundational/Seasoned Coach’s walking away because of things such as this NIL and rule changes /portal and such.
I just wonder , Coach Self how long ? --We know it’s coming , sooner then what some may believe , sooner then some want , not soon enough for some. He has mentioned he is on the back nine, not all the way yet, but on the back nine.
I had thought he qaa probably good for five years yet. Now ?— not so much , I think Bill is another HOF Coach that really is tired of the BS. Having to deal with being on the road so much/recruiting - – the NIL BS - -The Portal - - being on the road so much recruiting & evaluating takes a toll, can really drain a guy after so many years. - -Bill’s health is always going to be something to keep an eye on too.
With these Coach’s walking away big reason with the way College ball is changing - -Jay Wright - -Jim Boheim-- - - Coach K- -and a few others, they just don’t want to put up with it anymore. --Coach has said he wants to be able to have time to spend his life with the Wife/ Cindy ? Travel - -and enjoy his Grand kids-- - I just beginning to think Coach is gone more likely then not in two years- - give two more then done, thta’s what I’m thinking now.
We think we have it bad here with the way the Season is going – You ought to see what’s going on with Arkansas, they sound about like our fan base does = and there too this fricken NIL is causing major issues,- -People saying that certain players are just not good fit – players not playing to their capabilities -most of these problems are revolving around NIL.- - Some saying Coach Cal is past his prime, the new era of College Basketball has passed him up , Cal not being able to adapt
Has the new era of the game passes Coach Self by?- -is Bill past his prime ? - -being stuck some say by his not rotating the right players ?- -Two years , Two that’s my call now
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Bill Self had a phase where he recruited some questionable character guys. It really impacted this program, saddling us with the black eye of the half decade long investigation. The dude with the car accident (I’ve repressed the memory of his name and couldn’t care less to learn his name), the dude with the shoebox money (ditto my other parenthesis), Josh Jackson the most talented of all the lowlifes we brought in. The dude who raped the woman. Vick, had some issues, forgetting exactly, Jalen Wilson DUI, and the aforementioned Cliff Alexander, a victim of his own ma if I recall correctly. I might be wrong but Selfs first decade with us was his strongest and we avoided these headlines.
The original post, excellent btw @approxinfinity, and @MoonwalkMafia, was what’s happened to recruiting. Bill Self is still struggling to recover from the black eyes of the last decade.
But part of this is waiting for NCAA to work out the negativity of the NIL and portal eras. We brought in some highly ranked 5 star for next year. Normally I’d be stoked but now I’m just thinking he’s another Grady or Furphy (who had like 1 good game while he was here using us to get to the league). So while maybe the character issue has been resolved, finding loyal guys to the program who see all of the ‘trappings’ that come with being a KU player has been difficult. I laugh at guys like Grady Dick who took the money and play for a gosh awful Toronto team. Must be really fun playing in a boring league in front bored fans. He was getting paid here and would be a huge part of KU lore had he stuck around. Instead he’s an NBA afterthought. Would’ve gotten paid after this year or even his senior year a bunch.
88, 08, and 22 have forever etched themselves into my mind and make enduring these down periods a little less difficult. But I fear the aura of KU ball wearing off a little bit and always look at IU basketball, or Nebraska football as examples of programs that ruled their sport that haven’t been able to get it together since. Anyone see IU fans abandon the Assembly Hall the other day against Illinois before the first half was even done? My worst nightmare for KU right there.
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@BShark I’ll be honest with you. I question whether Remy was actually hurt. That dude was doing tomahawk jams in warmups during the period of time that he was supposedly hurt. That was also the word on the street at the time. I do think that Remy might’ve said something like ‘ya i’m not feeling 100%. Probably best to hold me out until March.’ Which would definitely check out with what Self said in the locker room after the national championship, “hey guys, he told us ‘just wait till March’.”
Regarding the Cliff vs. Lucas split. Yes, I said that. They basically played the same amount of minutes and Cliff had more points, rebounds, blocks, FTAs, FTMs. Lucas did beat Cliff in one stat, if we’re gonna nitpick. Turnovers. Cliff was the better player. I also feel vindicated by watching Lucas play 3 more years at KU and seeing how low his ceiling was.
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Cliff was absolutely the better player. Unfortunate situation with his mom that stopped him from staying another year. I think he would have been a total stud for us year two.
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@BShark Aint’ that the truth. He was good as a freshman. Imagine how much he could’ve grown in year 2 or 3.
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@wissox This is something I think about. In general Goff has made good hires but if we make a bad hire after Bill the program could end up like Indiana, UCLA or worse…
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@wissox said in My crisis of faith in Bill:
I laugh at guys like Grady Dick who took the money and play for a gosh awful Toronto team. Must be really fun playing in a boring league in front bored fans. He was getting paid here and would be a huge part of KU lore had he stuck around. Instead he’s an NBA afterthought. Would’ve gotten paid after this year or even his senior year a bunch.
Grady Dick is one thing! Not only was he phenomenal at KU (don’t get me wrong, he shrank in big moments, and it was easy for good teams to take him out of the game–imagine if he had another year to develop!) he’s been great in the league! He’s averaging 16 points. Side note: you said a gosh awful Toronto team. Personally I don’t understand anyone leaving KU for the NBA. The whole league is garbage.
But Johnny Furphy is the one I don’t understand the most. Johnny Furphy showed promise. But he wasn’t that good at KU. He had a stretch of like 8 games where played well. That’s it. KU fans were shocked when he fell to the second round. Why? Would you take a chance on him in the NBA? He’s now averaging 8 mpg, and 2 ppg. Woof.
I feel like this would be a better convo over a beer instead of a message board. But alas…
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@MoonwalkMafia Cliff had moved into the starting line up before the NCAA ended his season.
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@wissox said in My crisis of faith in Bill:
Bill Self had a phase where he recruited some questionable character guys. It really impacted this program, saddling us with the black eye of the half decade long investigation. The dude with the car accident (I’ve repressed the memory of his name and couldn’t care less to learn his name), the dude with the shoebox money (ditto my other parenthesis), Josh Jackson the most talented of all the lowlifes we brought in. The dude who raped the woman. Vick, had some issues, forgetting exactly, Jalen Wilson DUI, and the aforementioned Cliff Alexander, a victim of his own ma if I recall correctly. I might be wrong but Selfs first decade with us was his strongest and we avoided these headlines.
The original post, excellent btw @approxinfinity, and @MoonwalkMafia, was what’s happened to recruiting. Bill Self is still struggling to recover from the black eyes of the last decade.
But part of this is waiting for NCAA to work out the negativity of the NIL and portal eras. We brought in some highly ranked 5 star for next year. Normally I’d be stoked but now I’m just thinking he’s another Grady or Furphy (who had like 1 good game while he was here using us to get to the league). So while maybe the character issue has been resolved, finding loyal guys to the program who see all of the ‘trappings’ that come with being a KU player has been difficult. I laugh at guys like Grady Dick who took the money and play for a gosh awful Toronto team. Must be really fun playing in a boring league in front bored fans. He was getting paid here and would be a huge part of KU lore had he stuck around. Instead he’s an NBA afterthought. Would’ve gotten paid after this year or even his senior year a bunch.
88, 08, and 22 have forever etched themselves into my mind and make enduring these down periods a little less difficult. But I fear the aura of KU ball wearing off a little bit and always look at IU basketball, or Nebraska football as examples of programs that ruled their sport that haven’t been able to get it together since. Anyone see IU fans abandon the Assembly Hall the other day against Illinois before the first half was even done? My worst nightmare for KU right there.
Having met Jalen Wilson and seeing as he has had no other issues I take offense to his inclusion on the bad actors list. He made a childish mistake, atoned for it, and didn’t have another single issue - if I’m not mistaken. His attitude and demeanor improved drastically after that and he became a model student athlete on and off the court.
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@wissox said in My crisis of faith in Bill:
Bill Self had a phase where he recruited some questionable character guys. It really impacted this program, saddling us with the black eye of the half decade long investigation. The dude with the car accident (I’ve repressed the memory of his name and couldn’t care less to learn his name), the dude with the shoebox money (ditto my other parenthesis), Josh Jackson the most talented of all the lowlifes we brought in. The dude who raped the woman. Vick, had some issues, forgetting exactly, Jalen Wilson DUI, and the aforementioned Cliff Alexander, a victim of his own ma if I recall correctly. I might be wrong but Selfs first decade with us was his strongest and we avoided these headlines.
The original post, excellent btw @approxinfinity, and @MoonwalkMafia, was what’s happened to recruiting. Bill Self is still struggling to recover from the black eyes of the last decade.
But part of this is waiting for NCAA to work out the negativity of the NIL and portal eras. We brought in some highly ranked 5 star for next year. Normally I’d be stoked but now I’m just thinking he’s another Grady or Furphy (who had like 1 good game while he was here using us to get to the league). So while maybe the character issue has been resolved, finding loyal guys to the program who see all of the ‘trappings’ that come with being a KU player has been difficult. I laugh at guys like Grady Dick who took the money and play for a gosh awful Toronto team. Must be really fun playing in a boring league in front bored fans. He was getting paid here and would be a huge part of KU lore had he stuck around. Instead he’s an NBA afterthought. Would’ve gotten paid after this year or even his senior year a bunch.
88, 08, and 22 have forever etched themselves into my mind and make enduring these down periods a little less difficult. But I fear the aura of KU ball wearing off a little bit and always look at IU basketball, or Nebraska football as examples of programs that ruled their sport that haven’t been able to get it together since. Anyone see IU fans abandon the Assembly Hall the other day against Illinois before the first half was even done? My worst nightmare for KU right there.
Most basketball players don’t dream of peaking in college, they dream of playing in the NBA. I’m telling you this from experience with my football career. My dream was the NFL, if I had gotten to play for KU, that would’ve been cool, but ultimately wasn’t my end goal as I would’ve chosen whatever school was going to provide me the best chance to reach my goal of the NFL.
Unfortunately for me, I destroyed my ankle and missed my senior season and all of my scholarship offers pulled. I did have a couple of low level FBS offers from Sun Belt schools and Air Force before my injury.
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Agreed, think Jalen owned it, did great things here and continues to show solid work ethic in the league. But I do believe at the time it happened we were tossing around “here we go again”s on the board.
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Regarding Cheick and Cliffs playing time, I thought there were reasons we kept them out of some games to avoid forfeiture of wins or some such. Not just because Self deemed someone else a superior player.
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@Jhawk69 We can do this all day. Jamari played 222 more minutes than Cliff. That’s quite a difference. Cliff obviously played less games, so that makes sense. And yet, Cliff still scored more than Jamari (73 FGM compared to 67) and outrebounded him (148 to 130), and they tied with the team lead for blocks.
This is the age old debate, though. Short vs. long-term gain. Cliff was the better player. It seemed obvious then. It seems overwhelmingly true now. So he was out of position at times? Cool. He had the higher upside in the long-term, but was probably the better strategic move in the short-term. I remember people debating this at the time. It was infuriating.
As far as Cheik, this debate is kinda pointless because Cheik never played very much (only about 7 mpg), he was also held out of the first 10 games or so of the season. But we knew his upside. And I’ll just never buy into the Landen Lucas stuff. He wasn’t good. He committed to KU after Andrew Tarcewski committed to Arizona, who we had banked the future on. If I remember right, Lucas was like a consolation from the bargain bin when that whole thing fell through.
But who cares about picking over the details from a decade ago. KJ is the perfect representation of this debate. KJ’s great at being in position and defending. But he’s undersized and easy to score over. Flory isn’t a 4 so they’re not playing the same position. But he scores more, rebounds better, gets blocks while KJ…does none of those things.
So I pose this question to everyone with about 2 hours till game time. What do we think is gonna happen today? Do we think we see an actual change today and this team finds its stride? Or do we think guys still play with nerves and struggle to fit together. I think a game in the fieldhouse could really lift this team up if things start off well. My guess is we start Dajuan, Shak, Mayo, Griffen, and HD.
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@dylans someone correct me if i’m wrong, but isn’t it the law in Kansas that if you’re underrage, and drink one beer, then drive it’s a DUI? I was never under the impression that he was hammered and got busted. I could be wrong though.
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Allen .729 (590-212) 24 conference championships 3 final fours 3 Nattys (1 NCAA, 2 Helms)
Owens - 19 years .657 (135-44) 6 conference championships 2 final fours 0 Nattys
Brown - 5 years .754 (135-44) 1 conference championship 2 final fours 1 Natty
Williams - 15 years .805 9 conference championships 4 final fours 0 Nattys
Self - 21 years .804 (588-143) 17 conference championships 4 final fours 2 Nattys
36 years of winning at over 80% we are lucky!
