Can You Handle The Truth? Self's Traylor Comment A Targeted Farce
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I am firmly convinced that Diallo will solve the pt problem at the 5.
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I believe it was Jones
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@BeddieKU23 thx!
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@Crimsonorblue22 So it’s clear here, no, Traylor did not drive the basketball as you suggest to start the second half (nor at all in the second half). No he did not get fouled. He didn’t draw any foul in the second half. When I saw your post, I again reviewed my DVR before heading out the door, and made the post. It appears you didn’t even both checking a secondary sources, such as the ESPN play-by-play. Further Traylor “myth” morphs to assumed reality.
@BeddieKU23 Jones committed one foul in the entire second half, and that was on Perry Ellis at the 16:15 mark that resulted in free throws. It was Jones’ third foul.
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Self manages all his players’ egos, when he thinks it might help; that is part of coaching and managing.
Self has to protect the egos of those he intends to depend on. Whether Diallo starts, or not, pays big minutes, or small, Self has to get and keep both guys in a frame of mind to give the team what it needs, because he thinks both guys will be needed.
Diallo is not starting to protect him from his emotional ups and downs that were in strong evidence his first game. Diallo did not play well enough the first half to warrant the minutes he got the second half, unless a lead opened up. CD was played the second half because Traylor made some plays in a short stretch that finally allowed KU to separate against a cupcake enough for Self to play Diallo again; that was a huge contribution to the team in Self’s book. Self said before the game something approximating that Diallo would not start but hoped the game score would permit him to play quite a bit to help Diallo catch up. Traylor’s short stretch of positive impacts enabled that and for that Self sat Traylor and let Diallo get his confidence back. Self understood that sitting probably didn’t feel very rewarding to Traylor. He tried to make clear to Jamari and fans how much he valued Traylor’s accomplishment. Traylornmight well have gone on to his most productive game at that moment against the over matched Loyola, much as Diallo got to use Loyola to gain some confidence afterward. But either way, Self knows what happened vs. a cupcake in early December is not decisive. All it was was a chance for Diallo to get over his nerves. Traylor is the guy Self has to keep positive and confident, because it’s Traylor who has to deliver what Self asks of him game in and game out. Diallo is green wood and proved it with such a down and up performance against a cupcake.
Was Traylor the best player on KU? Probably not statistically except briefly. But what player was instrumental in buying Self and his team the separation both needed to play CD as much as he did, so CD could bounce back from a bad start?
It is not an exaggeration. Team players can contribute a lot that does not show on the line score. And it’s thankless, if the coach doesn’t notice and praise them. .
He has a 5 year guy sit in a blowout
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@jaybate-1.0 Traylor played to give Diallo time. Ok. I guess Bragg or Mick were incapable of the same thing? This stuff that we use to create this supposed value is offered by other players, as well. We heap this faux praise on Traylor as if he brings something unique. So he took up space for 4 minutes.
Bragg and Mick hustle and play with more energy than Traylor.
Why is it that Traylor’s poor play is completely ignored? The loafing down the court. The rebounds he simply misses. His poor positioning for rebounds. The failure to seal on the drive. The “double negative” is as if it didn’t happen.
The guy had one offensive rebound, and then a block that was called a jump ball, and because of the jump ball, they credited him with a rebound. That was it. He did literally nothing else in the four minutes.
I struggled to see any intangible during this time. It’s myth.
But your first sentence is right on point – “Self manages all his players’ egos, when he things it might help; that is part of coaching and managing.”
And that was exactly my point. Traylor’s performance did not warrant the praise. It was a psychological stroke to a player that sat all but four minutes in the second half. That is all it was.
To me, I’m curious how we even held and stretched our lead so dramatically with Traylor on the bench.
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@jaybate-1.0 Spot on analysis.
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@HighEliteMajor if all you are looking for is the negatives you are only going to find negatives.
If unwanted to waste my time reviewing a game that has no relevance at this juncture in time I could find everything bad that Humter did. Never focusing on any positives and make him look like the bench player he is.
If you want to argue that Hunter and Braggs production would go up if they had Traykors mins go for it it. It’s a void point. They aren’t playing those minutes. Maybe they aren’t practice players and if a coach bases his playing time on how a player produces at practice then I guess they need to work harder in practice.
If you want to argue that I don’t put in the time and effort to find all the things wrong Jamari does then you’d win cause I’m not going to knit pick at it. I’m not going to look for every negative a player does.
I guess I’m I’m just a blind fool for following coach Self and not questioning him. I guess I’m ill informed for not following you and believing in everything you say and not questioning you.
Maybe Jamari was at your local gym and didn’t pick you for his team or he out played you so wildly you were laughed out of the gym. I don’t know. But your über dislike for Traylor is well known and documented. We get it.
Does anyone have the number to the Kansas Humane society? There’s a man beating a dead horse again.
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@HighEliteMajor and @JRyman As I was watching the first half of the game I was doing exactly as JRyman suggested and was looking at every negative thing Hunter did. I noticed when he failed to seal on a drive. When he botched ball screen defense and allowed easy buckets. Twice. How he went the wrong way on a set play and blew it up. I could go and document every mishap in the first half if I thought that would be productive but I just don’t see how it would be.
Most importantly for me, I watch KU basketball for entertainment. I have fun watching the games. I have fun analyzing the game during and afterwords. But what I realized watching the first half with a similar lens as HEM watched the second I realized it was not fun. It is not entertaining to find every mistake a 20 year old makes playing a game he loves for probably the last year of his life (maybe over seas for Hunter with his height and touch). I don’t see the enjoyment in taking to a blog to then tear that kid down.
If you want to blame Self, do it. He gets paid to take the criticism and bear the burden. But what did Self do wrong? He played Traylor 4 minutes which is just about exactly what he should have done on Diallo’s opening night. So he wanted to give a kid he cares about and has watched grow a pat on the back. It even sounds like HEM agrees with the purpose of the comment. So I guess I can’t handle the truth? Or maybe I just don’t see the point.
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Good stuff, HEM. I too went back to the tape to see what I had missed with Traylor … only to realize I hadn’t missed anything.
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that has been my belief all this time. The “trickle down” effect of him taking minutes and reducing the PT of Mari as well as Lucas. I could live with Hunter getting minutes, his defense is valuable at the rim.
The only issue is now Bragg is in a serious crunch for minutes
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@Jesse-Newell But you did rate him as your 5th best player! I think I saw HEM had him at 12 which is “just untrue” and probably a “myth.”
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5th-best player for the season. I’ve been highly critical of him in the past, but he’s made some real improvements this year and has been a perfectly acceptable role player. Those have value too.
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Who was the actual winner after this line was spoken? I believe it was Tom rather than Jack.
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@HighEliteMajor If we’re having this same conversation in March, then there will be 10 threads just like yours. I get the frustration over the sop to Jamari, but I think Jaybate hit the nail on the head with the ego massaging. Last year, when he quit starting Jamari, Jamari pouted for weeks. Diallo, imo, will be the locked in starter by conference play.
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@benshawks08 @JRyman Realize that I did not watch the game the first time with an overly critical lense, nor did I even really notice Traylor to be honest other than the good block.
I only got focused on this because of Self’s quote, and then the reaction to that quote. So I rewatched again, to see what I missed.
So, I take it then, many just don’t want to see for their own eyes, judge with their own eyes, or just really don’t care to see? So I guess I appreciate that the factual basis of what I’ve suggested is not being challenged, it is more because the exercise is painful or makes you uncomfortable.
Some really don’t want the facts.
And it seems incredibly timely given what we saw from Diallo, right?
Funny, the point @jaybate-1.0 made is exactly why engaged this exercise. Because the day after the game, I said Self made those silly comments to pump up Jamari. Any dispute?
By the way, my ranking of players that was referred above is based on what our team would look like without the player. Who can we live with, or without, based on performance, and still succeed? I ranked Vick higher than #12 because of the uncertainty with Greene. I ranked Lucas ahead of Traylor because Diallo brings everything Traylor might (rendering his skill set irrelevant) from a depth perspective, and because Lucas is a superior rebounder and defender on the block. Injury or circumstance can change this sort of stuff at any time.
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Mason
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Ellis
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Selden
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Bragg
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Graham
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Diallo
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Svi
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Mick
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Greene
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Vick
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Lucas
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Traylor
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@HighEliteMajor I would rank Evan Manning above Traylor because he has come in and closed out games with a couple clutch 3s!
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My 12 best players so far this season would be:
- Selden
- Mason
- Graham
- Ellis
- Bragg
- Traylor
- Svi
- Lucas
- Diallo
- Mick
- Green
- Vick
But if you want to say most important to the team or base it on what our team would look like without the player it would be:
- Traylor
(just kidding)
- Mason
- Selden
- Graham
- Ellis
- Diallo
- Svi
- Traylor
- Bragg
- Vick
- Mick
- Lucas
- Greene
And just to be clear the above discussion regarding Traylor was not painful, nor did it make me uncomfortable, I just don’t see the point. Traylor didn’t play! Isn’t that what you wanted? Why pick apart and bash his four minutes in the second half.
I also think HEM tends to discount the value of experience and mentality. More often than not, (and certainly more often than Hunter or Bragg or Diallo at this point) Traylor is in the right place at the right time and will often explode (as jaybate has mentioned) beyond his position to make plays. I agree Bragg and Diallo are better players with more talent. But that doesn’t mean Traylor no longer has a place on the team or is worthless in the pursuit of a national championship.
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Man… you work hard on your posts. Great work!
There must be a reason for all of this.
I was over reading on KUSports this morning… about Vick. And he mentioned how Jamari helps him… kind of mentors him. Of course, we hope Jamari isn’t passing on his basketball knowledge! Yikes!
But I am starting to think that Jamari is the “example” of how a player earns PT. He isn’t our most capable player but earns PT. I think the message to the players is that it really isn’t a matter of making a mistake or not. It is all about having the right attitude, hustle, yada yada…
I’m not at practices… this is just speculation. I am trying to find an angle to address the situation with Jamari.
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@drgnslayr maybe, just maybe Mari’s bb IQ isn’t as low as you think, or hope for. Bragg has also mentioned Mari helps him.
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I am sky high on Vick.
Not on what he can provide us right at this moment (though he does offer plenty).
I’m thinking we have a player that could easily be with us for 4 years and will eventually make a huge contribution over 4 years!
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@drgnslayr I picture Vick and Graham hounding opposing guards in the future and get giddy!
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I am curious why Jamari thinks he is going to get a rebound by positioning himself directly under the basket. He will get more rebounds by standing at the top of the key.
That one fact blows me away. It did last year, too. I captured still images from a game and posted them as proof. He spends all that energy wanting to get a rebound and totally gifts over the position to our opposition.
I’m not desiring to bash Jamari. But I also can’t glaze over reality.
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@HighEliteMajor glad you made this thread as my jaw dropped while I was listening to Bill Self after the game when he made the Jamari statement.
I do understand @jaybate-1.0 point about helping players egos and i figured that was the only reason Bill would say something like that.
Do keep in mind its the beginning of December and this is the time of year we start guys like Jamari to send a message to other players. I see what Jamari brings to this team and its the same thing he has had over the past three years. Come on folks is he a guy who you start on a top 10 program in conference play and post season play? Jamari is best used as a spark off the bench always has, always will.
Look i am not bashing Jamari, really i like the guy. But think about it @JRyman; Do you really want a guy who is barely 6’8’’ tipping off each game? Do you think he is going to set the tone against 7 footers of Kentucky to start the game? Do want to rely on his offensive production in big 12 play?
Like I said its December so i am not too concerned. HighEliteMajor is not beating a dead horse, there are a LOT of KU fans that understand his views.
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I kind of hope Coach plays all his players. Sure Taylor will see less and less playing time with the emergence of Diallo. Yet I’m not sure why he can’t still get some playing time.
KU has one of the deepest teams in the country, and it’s a veteran team. A team that has played together. Why not use that strength? Just overwhelm foes. No reason any player should average 30 mins plus of playing time a game.
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@DoubleDD Except Graham and Mason. One of those guys needs to be on the court at all times are we are clearly best with both in the game. But agree even then they should be at 25-30 in blowouts. Rest em now while we can!
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Exactly, it would be nice to roll into the Tournament with a healthy and rested team. It seems the last couple years KU has come out of conference play pretty beat up, and worn down.
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Diallo needs to start now. Traylor needs to play just enough to keep him interested. The only way this team makes a deep run in the tourney is if Diallo develops into a legitimate threat to score 15-20 points on any given night, grab 12 rebounds and block 5 shots. The only way that happens is if Coach Self lets him play through his mistakes and gives him the minutes. I like Traylor a lot. At one time I thought he would be our next TRob. Unfortunately, I was WRONG in that assessment. He can and will play an important role for this team but his minutes have got to drop and he should not be our starter anymore. DIALLO SHOULD START FOR THE REST OF THE SEASON!
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I asked someone this:
Can you please help me out? After the last game Coach Self said Traylor was the best player? Is there something he brings to the game that I am not seeing on a score card? Just really curious?
This was the response I received:
Nah. Mari was really good that night
There you have it guys and gals!!! HCBS has brainwashed everyone lol!
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@HighEliteMajor Can’t argue with your list.
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Jamari has been valuable to the program for the past 5 seasons. Unfortunately for him, there are better options this year. To play Jamari Traylor max minutes in my opinion would have a negative impact on recruiting, not to mention on the team itself. Potential recruits are watching everything.
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I am not bashing on Mari but I am not sure how on Gods Green Earth he was the best player last game?
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Excellent analysis HighEliteMajor. I have wondered why Self continues to play less talented players in times where he has more talented players on the bench, and he is going hard at OADS on recruiting front. On top of that he make comments that you have pointed out regarding how Traylor was the best player. It might be a coded message to Traylor but what effect does it have on other players and fans.
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@KansasComet Good point Comet
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@JRyman Totally agreed. HEM’s constant harping on Traylor (a player who legitimately won us games last year) is completely unbecoming of his/her username. It makes it hard to take some of HEM’s other analysis seriously. Wasting time on this negativity especially at this point in the season is a waste of life.
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@betterfireE @JRyman I would have to disagree.
This is different than the MSU game where there was a new thread everyday harping on the same topic over the a same situation.
@HighEliteMajor is simply stating his case again because Traylor proved him right… Again. Top that with Self’s comments on Traylor, he analyzed what Traylor did to be “the best player” KU had that night.
This thread is more about Self’s absurd comment than Traylor being underwhelming again.
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Maybe I am CRAZY but didn’t Wayne score 18pts 6reb and 4 assists? I am curious how Mari gets such high praise? Best player of the game? I am on board with what HEM is saying? Why such HIGH praise for an underwhelming performance? 2pts 6reb and a block for Mari? He was sooooo clutch!
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@betterfireE I did not view this post as negative at all. As a matter of fact I commend HighEliteMajor for his excellent analysis and commentary on a very concerning issue that can have serious implications in the future.
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@HighEliteMajor Yep, thats a good old horsey, now out to pasture you go. Thats what Coach’s comments on Traylor mean to me. Youve done your time, done your hard work, now its time for new legs to come in and rock the chalk.
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I think it is best we DON’T START Cheick for a few more games. Let him see the game for a while on the bench and gather his thoughts before going out there.
And that also shows some respect for Jamari. We might have some less-than-perfect opinions about his play… but he has been around for over 4 years now and has been a soldier to Self and our program. It shows some class to not quickly whack him from the starting lineup. Let it happen but over several games.
That doesn’t mean Cheick shouldn’t get more minutes of PT over Jamari and the rest of our bigs fighting for those minutes. That part should be determined during games based on performance and fouls.
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Starting off a sentence by saying, “I’m not bashing, but”, always ends in bashing.
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@JRyman You are dead right. Dead right. Well i DID watch the game again this aft. Tralor played well, boxed out well, missed a few things like every one else did. Btw my close re-watching of the last 3 games (espn 3 replay) has opened my eyes to poor defense by several KU starters, Perry for one. Both mason and graham are late often fighting thru picks to get their man who drains a three. Bragg… Well he’s a freshman with considerable talent and great upside, but who needs to work on his D.
its getting a bit weird the way Certain posters here keep hammering away on Traylor.
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@Bosthawk This isn’t weird at all. Traylor has been bashed for 3 years. You must not have read kusports before this. Brady was hammered, bashed and dumped on for 2 years. As the old saying goes “the more things change, the more they stay the same”.
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Bill Self has an entire team to think about. He displays a great deal of appreciation and respect for kids who don the jersey for 3 years or more. I’m hoping that Cheick Diallo bears the maturity to wait for his moments, maybe even come back for a second season if he is not a sure thing as a top 4 lottery pick in the June draft. Bill Self has manned up, stuck out his chin in a big way, both for Traylor and Diallo. I look to see them repay his staunch esteem.
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@sfbahawk Interesting… Apparently self playing brady incensed some posters sounds like…
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I think the best explanation is that HCBS was feeding comments to the media that would supplant the minutes that Traylor lost to Diallo. He needs Jamari to stay engaged. He can’t afford to lose him (mentally, emotionally or spiritually) because Jamari knows the system and, as a senior, is less likely to have lapses and is more predictable in critical moments in games. That said, Self knows that Diallo has more talent and is going to need to get more and more minutes.
Self is always coaching… And he knows how to use all the tools at his disposal to get the most out of the team. Don’t take this the wrong way, but the media is a sort of tool for him.
I think he’s savvy, not delusional. Maybe I just choose to see it that way… (but I’ll look at his .800 winning percentage as exhibit A)
