Brannen Greene
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@ralster I agree that BG did not handle it properly but the punishment was too severe. Coach Self has double standards. Recall how fans including yourself was asking Self to fire Snacks after his drug incident had come to light. And we all saw how Self had handled that incident.
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Apples vs oranges.
And out of curiosity what makes the Maui event more of a once in a lifetime experience than the Bahamas?
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@KUSTEVE I’d love nothing more, I want to win the NC. Its about time now.
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I think @AsadZ has taken the discussion to a little different level. It’s worth having, quite frankly, regarding Bill Self. I think it really frames for most of us where we’re at – we just want improvement. We don’t want him fired. Not even close. We all (generally) like the guy. We know he represents our program well. And as @drgnslayr said, “be careful what you ask for”. Heck, look at the mediocrity two great programs in our present tourney in Maui have fallen into – UCLA and Indiana. However, fan bases do make title demands. Look at LSU in football. Running off Les Miles who has the #1 recruiting class for 2016. It is an incredible roll of the dice.
Again, I hope @AsadZ posts his thoughts regularly as the season goes on and is not dissuaded by those that take the “stop posting” approach. You, me, any of us, are no more KU fans than he simply because of his opinion. His fire Self opinion is a nice counterweight to a few of the Self worshippers we have here. @AsadZ said “But I will continue to demand improvement and accountability for Self.” Nothing wrong with that. Keep it up.
On BG, one correction that seems pretty obvious – @AsadZ said that @ralster said BG was “a locker room cancer.” @ralster said “Self is trying desperately to not let Brannen Greene turn into a locker room cancer.” Much different.
I point that out not to be nit-picky, but because I will take that leap. Locker room cancer. When, as a player, you bitch and moan in public, to the face of the coach, that’s not just pre-cancerous cells. It’s stage 1 at least. More like stage 2. Self chose the aggressive treatment.
I believe Self’s suspension of Greene is a tremendous message to the rest of the team. It sets the right tone. And it is unequivocal. It draws the right line, in my opinion. Is it “player friendly” in the day of the pampered CBB player? Could it hurt recruiting? Different question. But in the vacuum of winning a national title, it was absolutely the correct path.
As @Crimsonorblue22 said, “coach didn’t take that chance away, BG did”. When you walk into Walmart and steal a shirt, you take the chance that some overweight security guard pulls out his taser. You risk an apparent overreaction. You become a criminal.
Mouthing off to your coach as Greene did in a public manner is crossing that line.
Six games, of course, is harsh on its face. But three games would have meant no Maui as well. And could you really permit a kid suspended for insubordination to travel and enjoy? I don’t think so. And we don’t know what else has occurred. Whether there have been behind the scenes blowups, maybe in Self’s office. Pure speculation. My guess is that the duration of the suspension gives us insight.
And don’t be surprised if sometime next week Self says that he’s very proud of Brannen Greene for how he handled the suspension, that he’s really attended to his business the right way – and he reduces the suspension to four games or something like that. That would not be surprising to me. Actually, I think it will be a bit instructive on Greene’s standing. If this suspension goes the full 6 games, that will tell me things aren’t likely to ultimately reconcile. If it gets reduced, it tells me that Self, in a measured fashion, is working hard to discipline and reconcile. It would be the perfect tact on this, if Self wants this to reconcile – "if."
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So there isn’t a beach to hang out with teammates on in the Bahamas?
You haves used the term once in a lifetime on a couple of occasions…just trying to understand your logic.
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@SoftballDad2011 think we need to test that out!
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@AsadZ apparently they did NOT put tanning beds in the new apartments for the players.
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@SoftballDad2011 All venues are not the same, different feel & experience
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Fair enough
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I have been considering the Bahamas trip next year.
Would be completely out of character for me, but it’s been a rough few years, so by then it might be just what the dr ordered.
Guessing I will talk myself out of it by then…but we’ll see!
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@SoftballDad2011 Dude - if you’re physically able to do it - DO IT. (I left the “just” off of there, don’t want to advertise for the competition)
Life’s WAY too short to not have fun when you get the chance. If you’re short on money, borrow it, have a bake-sale or a carwash but just go. Please - you will never regret it.
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@nuleafjhawk and take me!
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@AsadZ You recall correctly that I (personally) think Snacks should have been fired, simply because I want illegal things not be assoc with the Univ. of KS, but maybe Self had more info than anything we publicly know…its his call.
Now, this time we are not talking about illegal activity from BGreene (we wont talk about his past suspensions for smoking pot)–> no, we are talking about an emotional kid, who cannot, cannot see the reason for his frustration is his own shortcomings in playing this game on both ends of the court.
I think 100% of all of us alums (&fans) just want BG to shine & contribute. There is no victory in seeing him fail or transfer.
One thing Self has made CRYSTAL clear during his 12 years at KU: he will never… Ever… be a coach who loses control of his team, like Bruce Weber, for example.
JRGiddens BOOTED. CJGile BOOTED. Malcontent Micah Downs (allowed to) TRANSFER. Homeboy Brady SUSPENDED. Galindo homesick, allowed to transfer. Naadir Tharpe BOOTED. Mario Little allowed to stay as Self balances discipline-father with compassionate-father. Tyshawn and EJ, both SUSPENDED, & got the msg. Royce Woolridge, malcontent, allowed to TRANSFER. CJ Henry, locker room cancer/malcontent TRANSFERRED, right when we were short of guards?..yes. Wasnt right for the team’s goals in several ways. Anrio Adams malcontent: TRANSFER. Quintrell Thomas: transfer.
@AsadZ I was there in April with about 8 guys asking Self Q&A session on anything/everything. He was asked about Naadir’s dismissal. He said Frank was supposed to be “this good” even in his freshman season, but Naadir was a bad influence both on/off the court, and “had to go”. He called Naadir a “good player for sure, but a bad leader, then with his acts, HAD to go. Had to go” (yes, he said it twice like that). He talked about IowaSt players, plays, and scout film breakdown…it is amazing the level of detail he knows even about opposing players. He has had humorous exchanges with G.Niang, & shared those with us. I cannot repeat what Niang said that made Self chuckle, due to adult locker room language, but it was hilarious. It was also clear Self had everything Hoiberg was doing dissected down to minute details.
What became clear to me, that after years, decades of coaching, Self loves players, sees them as pieces performing roles in his playstyle, and the recruiting game is always running in the background. But we’ve seen that he will not tolerate ONE player trying to disrupt a team trying to gain chemistry.
The fact that Self hit the EJECT button on fellow Oklahoman, and McDAA Giddens, taught me early on, that Self is old-school disciplinarian, and would expend a high-talent kid, rather than tolerate repeated team disruptions. BGreene continues to stupidly provide Self with disruptions, and the lockerroom eruption was over the top. See the pattern??? High-talent kid keeps being a problem. Doesnt know who is boss. Doesnt know, even as a g-d-mn junior what he’s to do on court & off court. Self called him out in Oct about “not getting the big picture”.
@AsadZ You cannot say “6 game suspension too harsh” in some vacuum, no, no, no. This is a culmination penalty, which even required BGreene to go nuclear in the lockkerroom for it to happen. Again, see BG’s own foot in own mouth, despite Self’s bootprints already on his ass, repeatedly.
And frankly, how bad was it to still be happening when Greene’s parents were summoned? You certainly have heard about Self selling family atmosphere & fellowship, yet what was BG doing by yelling “I was the best player on the floor!!” right in front of his teammates. He chose to kick them all, and kick his coach when the were down & sad after a loss. BG chose absolutely the wrong moment, & absolutely the wrong manner to gripe about playing time.
Beware the dangerous logic of taking a shred of actual truth (fact BG needs more mpg), and using that fact in a negative, destructive manner. No good will come of it. That shred of truth will be lost in the fallout of the bad action. BG sits now with NO mpg. By his own action, no less, and @AsadZ , even BG’s dad agrees with Self. But you dont, of course, because you are garnering attn by your flawed “dissent”. Flawed, because it goes against decades of coaching principles (cannot lose control of your team). Even Calipari’s OAD factory teams…he maintains control & has benched players. He talks about each player doing their job, trusting one another, and bldg team chem by March. I say he’s in control of those OADs, he’s proven that. I say Self should be allowed to run his team the way he sees fit.
You want to ask questions about the last 2-3 yrs? Ask Self about this roster. He will tell you. Its about each position performing the designated role. After 20+ yrs of coaching, the pieces in the system must perform their roles with efficiency. Execution, both ends of the floor. One piece starts squawking? Well, now that’s about 180-degrees off course from the mission of team unity, team chemistry, and team-level execution, isnt it?
What did Self say on Hawk Talk the day after loss to Mich St? He said “this team, once it comes together as a TEAM, has the experience and talent to be very, very good”. He didnt sound flustered, and was calm & easy-going with the fans calling in. You see he knows, just knows where this team is at.
Once the team saw BG’s reaction in the lockerroom, then saw Self’s punishment of BG–> now things are clear for the team. They are playing with passion. They just got shown what line you-dont-cross. You play for THIS coach. This coach has said he himself is nothing more than a “caretaker of the Kansas Legacy”. The stakes are high. Its about sooooo much more than BGreene. He is nothing but an expendable piece, IF he chooses not to fit in with Self’s greater construct.
@AsadZ my simple straightforward advice to you is to think big picture, not try to champion some troubled misfit…you concerned about the early exits in March? Well, what is Self or any coach trying to build from right now, in Nov??? Rotations, competence in teamplay & execution, and above all, team chemistry. That’s what will serve us better in March. BG can only see it from his view, thats why he’s way too young to be a head coach at a royalty program.
Big picture goals will not tolerate such a stark, almost unprecedented disruption from any player. Fact: if you play for this man, there are things you must and must not do…
Self’s way, or the highway (outta here).
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Well said.
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PHOF!!! Way to go.
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@AsadZ Were you there when the BG incident took place? Actually there so you know something no one else outside of the locker room knows?
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@RockChalkinTexas (just my opinion, but I dont think any 3rd party like AsadZ needed to be there in the lockerroom, since BG’s own dad came out after witnessing his son’s tirade first-hand…and said Brannen “made a mistake” and that Self’s suspension “should get (Brannen’s) attention”.
This KEY fact, that BGs parents and Self are in agreement (about BGs mistake, maybe not the mpg issue), is why I sharply differ from people like AsadZ’s opinion. I see that as ignoring team chemistry and the big picture. We need a competent, tough, resourceful team come March, more than just about BGs mpg.
I love it when BG burys his 3s, but his post game act was way wrong: now its not about mpg, since BG turned it into a disciplinary issue. Again: his own dad agrees, and gave details that corroborate the whole situation. BG needs to grow up…of course we can use his talent, but dont need mouthy drama. Thats never been tolerated under Self (or Roy).
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@Texas-Hawk-10 Well stated.
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@ralster If Bill Self is such a disciplinarian than punishment for Snacks should have been severe. Snacks is coaching college kids, 18-22 year olds. He is recruiting HS kids, some as young as 16. How do parents feel when they get a visit from a coach who is doing illegal drugs, got caught and did not notify his boss. Could this issue be hurting KU recruiting? Why did Bill Self did not fire Snacks? I see double standards here Ralster.
Ralster, I am trying to identify the issues I am seeing with KU BB. I don’t dislike HCBS. I like him a lot. As I had said before I used to show his work to my own children as an inspiration. But is clear to me that Bill is losing the edge and I want that changed for KUs sake.
I don’t like continued early exits in the tourney. On top of that I see HCBS mishandling and misusing talent available to him. He has more BB knowledge than all of us combined but I cant understand the unjust treatment towards players like Mickelson & Greene, its pathetic that Traylor & Lucas are getting more PT than Mickelson, makes no sense to me whatsoever. He has misled fans with his conflicting comments, recall how he talked about learning at the WUG. When it comes to game days he is inflexible and not changing with time, I see him getting outcoached more & more. Recall how coach K implemented a zone strategy in the middle of the season when his team was struggling and it started to pay off the dividends, another NC banner for coach K. How often has coach Self implemented changes during crunch time in the last 2 years? Please tell me?
Ralster I am sure that you will agree with me that this year we have a NC caliber potential team, talent + experience but I am afraid that above issues could come in the way, another early exit will be hard to swallow Ralster, I hope not.
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@AsadZ 100% agree with you about Snacks, and I still feel that way. Your first paragraph was a carbon copy of my ideas. What would some parents think? But the fact it surfaced almost a year after it happened may have been a mitigating factor. Main point: there could be a LOT we don’t know about Snacks details. Plus, he may have absolutely begged for his professional life on his knees…and Self may have come up with some personal agreement between the 2 men?
Who knows? Eventhough I heard a few questions answered candidly by Self, and asked him some of my own…that is simply a drop in the ocean of all the details behind-the-scenes of KU basketball.
I appreciate your and every KU fan’s and alum’s concern-level for KU basketball’s success. My personal feeling is I think Self is keenly aware of how KU’s early exits have made him and the program look. What we can trust, is that he personally is a highly competitive individual who hates to lose.
But you know, Self is “closest” to what goes on on the court, and will take responsibility for it, as most coaches will. But it comes down to players who actually have the ball in their hand. You can absolutely make a case for more mpg for various bench guys, for various reasons…but it is Self’s final judgement, and I’m fine with it. If the $52mil dollar man cant figure it out…the team’s and program’s fortunes will slide accordingly. It all will sort itself out.
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Below is from BG’s twitter. I’m glad he is still all-in here at KU, looking forward to seeing him back out on the court and draining those threes!
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@RockkChalkk that’s a good statement from the young man. Especially about the rumors.
I Liked the way he called people out for believing what they want cause they don’t have nothing but time to criticize.
Sure I was down on the kid but, not for long and this helps see him in a different light.
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@JRyman oh no, tumors?
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@Crimsonorblue22 all edited now. Lol
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@RockkChalkk Thank you for sharing
