Brannen Greene
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@Crimsonorblue22 Yea it does work both ways but Self and Co offer the scholarships to these kids that don’t fit in to his preferred system. If they didn’t target square pegs and then offer them the scholarships there wouldn’t be one to accept. And you’re right, Greene and White should have known better but the effects of KU offering you a scholarship has to cloud your judgement
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@Kip_McSmithers This isn’t just directed to you, but I’ve seen similar posts from several other people where the premise is that these very good shooters should not have chosen KU and its in part their fault that they aren’t getting the playing time they want. Wasn’t Bmac a similar mold to these guys? Wasn’t he the man when Greene chose KU? I don’t fault the recruits at all. Not to mention we have no clue what line they were fed by the recruiters. Its very reasonable to think that Greene could have been told his game is similar to Ben’s and led him to believe that they would use him in the same way.
I don’t understand how the offense ran so well for Bmac by getting him always involved in the offense but now we don’t come anywhere close to doing the same for even better shooters (according to Self). Mystifying.
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@HighEliteMajor yes, I am beyond reproach!
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@AsadZ Accountability is fine. But this year’s recruiting class is not complete. Last year’s was good with Bragg and Vick. We won another conference title last year. Maybe we will again this year. Maybe we will go to the final four this year. Or…maybe not on both. Let’s let it play out. We were in the final four in 2012 and missed the last 3 I just don’t think that is anywhere close to calling for a new coach.
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In real life, the only new coach who could possibly be better than Self is an improved Self.
@HighEliteMajor and others are not calling for another coach, they’re suggesting adjustments to improve the current one.
During the recent gale of criticism, I have been piling on a little, but I am such a featherweight that no one felt a thing.
There are some things I don’t understand, mainly “Fool’s Gold” and “Energy”. Usually when I don’t understand someone’s behavior, either I don’t have all the information or I don’t fully understand that person’s motivation.
Maybe Self believes in the Big 12 more than he believes in the NCAA? Maybe he just doesn’t care as much anymore about a tournament that enriches such an organization.
Personally, I wish we could find another end of year tournament to play in.
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@Hawk8086 I am on board with that and lets see how things turn out over the course of this year. Personally I will be Ok if we don’t win the Big 12 as long as we have a deep run in the tourney although getting both will be really fun. And I hope that we get to see an improved version of Bill Self in the areas I have been advocating here.
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I hope we don’t lose Self…
But if we did, the only guy I see coming in (at this moment) is Danny Manning. He has been cutting his teeth for a little while now. We know he can develop players, especially big guys. We could regain the title “Big Man U.”
Mark Turgeon is building some steam, too… I just don’t see him as being as popular as Danny.
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I agree with you. Coach Self’s comment need to be taken in context. The famous…or should I day Infamous comment about the 3 being fool’s gold was made referring more to “depending” on the 3 rather than using it, and he is right, the 3 can vary quite a bit from game to game where the more conventional inside scoring tends to be more even and reliable. Unfortunately, some will take comments out of context to fit their narrative, nothing really new there…standard fare in our daily lives and politicians and pundits make a living doing it.
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E. Elliot the RB from tOSU calls out Urban and Co in the national media and gets zero games on the pine. BG does it behind closed doors and gets slapped with SIX. Legit.
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@Kip_McSmithers wasn’t behind closed doors, started jawing on the bench. Plus he’s had a few other problems w/discipline
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I don’t think it was that out there. If it was then why was there any speculation on the why of his suspension? I know it started on the bench and then the locker room but he wasn’t mic’ed up for it. Do you know what BG said exactly? Anyone that hasn’t been under a rock the last two days knows what Elliott said.
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@Kip_McSmithers said:
E. Elliot the RB from tOSU calls out Urban and Co in the national media and gets zero games on the pine. BG does it behind closed doors and gets slapped with SIX. Legit.
I said this in another thread but it is worth repeating about Urban Meyers. He never suspended Hernandez at Florida even though he knew he was carrying a gun around. Look where that got Hernandez?
Urban isn’t about the players, or their growth as young men. He in it for his legacy and bonus checks for winning.
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@JRyman Ok, yet again, JT Barret blew a 0.09, was compliant with police, it’s his first offense, it’s a misdemeanor, etc. OSU was not required to suspend him due to university or NCAA policy yet they did anyways. On top of his suspension they took away the summer semester for him (i.e. doesn’t receive his stipend and still can’t work because of NCAA rules, nor can he take any classes, which puts him behind to graduate).
Stop acting like Barrett didn’t receive any punishment, and stop acting like JT is the second coming of a guy that is in jail for murder because he did something that each and every one of us did in college.
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@MoonwalkMafia ok what did I say about Barret? My comment was about Elliot their RB who spoke out against his coaches and the play calling to the press after their loss to Michigan state Saturday night. (Which is what is rumored BG did sans the media)
That’s what I was referencing and how Urban Meyer let’s his stars go Scott free like he did in Florida. Hernandez is the biggest of those names, but you could also look into the Pouncey brothers why they were at Florida. It was all clouded up by the ever popular golden boy Tim Tebow.
Urban wants to win and will do it at the cost of society and not his players.
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@JRyman Ok, but yet again, Elliott lobbying for more carries is not the same as Aaron Hernandez (a convicted murderer) getting caught with a gun… I mean, you have to know that, right?
Elliott has 2 mores games left at OSU. Brannen Greene got suspended because he’s a repeat offender. Elliott has been a model player and said something in the heat of the moment (which he was right about). Brannen Green and Ezekiel Elliott are not quite the same, wouldn’t you say? Urban Meyer has suspended every player for offenses that warranted a suspension. These offenses are not quite the same.
As a side not, I wonder if Self would’ve suspended Greene if KU were heading into the last/second to last game of the season.
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Going to a tourney with seeding biased for eyeballs, as Bary Hinson said, and apparently biased by Refs appearing to use no calls and phantom calls to manage some spreads and maybe some outcomes is like trying to win your girl a birthday present at a crooked carnival with a barker that doesnt like you.
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@MoonwalkMafia ok I’ll give that comparing Jernadez and Elkiot are a far cry from each other. Yet Jernandez was never suspended while at Florida. So that dismisses your argument that good ole Urb suspends players when they deserved it.
Urb actually covered it up at Florida so Hernandez wouldn’t be expelled. This has been mentioned by more than one ex player and U of Florida students.
As for Elliot going live after his coaches to the masses in my opinion, just mine, is more selfish than what Greene did at practice.
Is Greene a repeat offender for calling his coaches out? Or for just being a head case?
Both Elliot and Greene are hyper competitive athletes and that causes these issues about carries and playing time. Are they both deserving? Probably. Did they go about it the right ways? No.
Just because the .09 BAL(Blood Alcohol Level) isn’t against the university or team rules per the letter of their law it is against the law in all 50 States. Sometimes leaders, be it coaches or bosses need to step in and help young people understand that their actions have consequences. He could have easily killed someone at that BAL with delayed reactions. Then what???
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@JRyman Ok, he passed the sobriety test, so let’s not act like he was falling over. And like I already pointed out, Barrett received a proper punishment, in my opinion. As someone who’s gone to summer school every year in college, getting the summer taken away from me would be devastating. It puts you behind on graduating by 9-12 credits. So again, in my opinion, the Barrett case is shut.
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@MoonwalkMafia it is shut. But as someone who has spent a lot of time on the roads. City, highways and interstates .09 is dangerous behind the wheel of a 2 ton vehicle.
I have known guys personally and spoken with many state patrolmen that have blown or seen someone blow over twice the legal limit and yet passed the field sobriety test. Flawlessly.
Am I flawless in my driving after a few? No. So I will step down from the pulpit on this and let it go.
Jus saying Urban Meyers picks and chooses who he suspends and when.
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Are you down playing drunken driving? I can guess you have never had someone taken from you by an intoxicated driver. And your casual ways about it also make me think you drive under the influence. Barrett is only 20 years old. Legal drinking age is 21 last time I checked. Urban went easy on him like JRyman said. Brady Morningstar was 36 when he got his DUI at KU. He missed more than a game. That’s a punishment that fits the crime.
And the whole taking the summer semester from him! Oh no! He’s a red shirt sophomore which means he can declare for the draft if he’s stock is high enough. C Jones is going to declare and Barrett beat him out so what’s to stop his people from hyping him in to declaring and forgoing his last two years?
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@Kip_McSmithers 1) JT Barrett is not going early in the draft. 2) Basketball has almost four times as many games as football 3) Brady Morningstar was twice over the legal limit, tried to bribe the cop, and was not cooperative; are you kidding me with this? 4) I’m not downplaying drunk driving. I’m saying he passed the sobriety test and was hardly over the legal limit (the video of it is all over the internet. Go watch it.). So don’t act like he was falling over. And I’m realistic enough to know that every single one of us (without exception) drank underage in college. So it seems beyond hypocritical to act like the kid deserves to be crucified for this.
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Brady Morningstar was twice over the legal limit, etc.
Another thing about the Brady case is that Boot Camp had just disbanded and Self had lectured the team about toeing the line after the fights with the football team. Brady picked exactly the right time to get the book thrown at him.
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0.08, 0.09, or 0.16. Over the legal limit is over the legal limit. Be it double or by a 0.01. Intoxicated is intoxicated. It’s against the law. Can’t argue that fact. Did his passing of the sobriety test change the fact that he was still breaking the law?
40 games in basketball if you make it to the final game of your conference tournament and the NCAA finals. Brady missed 9. KU played 36 that season. He missed a fourth of the games.
Ohio State can play a total of 15 games. 12 reg season. One conf championship. Two in the playoffs. Barrett will have missed 1/13, 1/14, or 1/15. But it’s ok because he’s a kid. And kids are invincible. And he didn’t kill an innocent bystander, this time. And he can’t get into an accident because it was only 0.01 over the legal limit.
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I watched several sports shows and many analysts seem to think that if he is indeed gone after the season, i.e. will get drafted, the he might not see the field again this season. Having said that, Meyer was very casual about Elliot and said that maybe he should have gotten more touches…if he needs him to win games he will play him; unlike other coaches Meyer is, like you said, all about his own record.
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@AsadZ Nope. Cannot have players questioning the coach. Doesn’t work in high school, nor college, nor the NBA, nor the NFL. Rethink your statement please. You don’t see practice, you don’t see the blow-by’s defensively (see gamefilm) --you had to have missed those facts to post what you did.
Again: cannot question the coach publicly at any level, regardless if right or wrong. Cannot use end justification, as you are trying to do, either.
Greene is wrong.
The tirade Greene went on in the locker room was him proclaiming “I’m the best player on the floor!” in front of teammates and coach. Ugly scene. Any parent who walks in and sees their son blasting his own team and coach, would then understand Self’s reaction.
If parents side with their son even after witnessing his tirade, then they need to have him transfer schools…*
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@AsadZ Man, just STOP. Listen to yourself: “totally justified”, “time for Self to go…” Oh, really?! So you would pick a Junior guard who is almost incapable of playing D, OVER the coach that built the program his way, with his recruits, and he merely expects those players to run and execute his playstyle…but has no right to be frustrated with a junior guard that still doesn’t get the big picture? This isn’t Roy Williams, this isn’t Larry Brown, this isn’t Ted Owens.
It is however, a future Hall of Famer coach.
Did you watch the Chaminade and UCLA games? Methinks the playstyle has indeed evolved from last year. It also seems the myriad of mistakes we made vs MichSt were corrected…right?
Let me tell you where YOU sit… If you are a fan of KU, then you are almost guaranteed that your team will make March Madness. And IF the team comes together, they have a chance of actually getting farther than the 2nd round, right? So what the hell would you do if you see some kid trying to disrupt that very chemistry after a tough loss??? Self is trying desperately to not let Brannen Greene turn into a locker room cancer.
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@ralster I have pointed out the issues as I see them with Self. I have acknowledged that he has been a great coach and HOF caliber but his issues over the last few years are crystal clear, can’t hide the facts, and I can understand that truth hurts.
You may not like it. That’s OK. But I will continue to demand for improvement and accountability from Self.
You label BG demanding PT as disturbing team chemistry and a locker room cancer. I don’t view these in a similar fashion. He has all right to ask for more PT. I agree that the situation could have gotten messy in the locker room but 6 game suspension is too much, simply Cruel. The kid could not play in Korea due to injury and now the coach took away once in a life time experience of playing in Maui away from him. Very Harsh treatment.
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@AsadZ Pretty ridiculous to want to have our coach fired, or to take the side of a player trying to start a mutiny, imo. If you told anyone outside of our program you wanted Coach Self fired, you’d be laughed off the internet.
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@AsadZ coach didn’t take that chance away, BG did.
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Obviously we disagree on this too.
He certainly has the right to express his opinions and feelings with the coaching staff…just pick the correct forum in which to express them.
It began On the sideline during the game and spilled into the locker room… not the correct places.
Even BG’s dad acknowledged he made a mistake.
He had to be reprimanded to prevent it from happening again with him…and to prevent another teammate from thinking Brannen’s actions must have been ok (had there not been consequences for Brannen’s insubordination)… Precedence has been established, albeit at BG’s expense.
So maybe the punishment was too harsh …even for a third known disciplinary infraction…reduce it to three games…not nearly as harsh, but he still misses Hawaii.
that being said, he did go to the Bahamas with the team two years ago. And if a tropical vacation over thanksgiving is really important to him, he can hang around another year and go back to the Atlantis event next year.
Three once in a lifetime experiences would sure be better than just two. but two once in a lifetime experiences is still better than just one.
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Anybody think his teammates might be tired of BG’s crap? He very well could be a cancer to the team!
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@KUSTEVE People can laugh all day long. I care about KU BB and I am asking for improvement over the areas I have highlighted in several posts. You may very well be happy with the way things are going on over the last couple of years & that’s fine with me, you have your own right. But I am not happy nor satisfied with Self’s performance and I am asking him to learn from his mistakes & make changes. That’s very fair as a KU BB fan.
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@Crimsonorblue22 Punishment was too severe & harsh. BTW I like how BG shows emotion on the court. We need more flavor from KU players on the court
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@SoftballDad2011 Its not about tropical vacation. Its about playing in Maui tournament. Coach has double standards here. His punishment towards Snacks & Traylor was no way near as harsh as towards BG. People on this board were asking Self to fire Snacks immediately for what he did and we all know how Self had responded?
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@AsadZ I will patiently wait for your retraction as we kick ass this season. We will do so well, you won’t have any other choice…lol.
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@ralster I agree that BG did not handle it properly but the punishment was too severe. Coach Self has double standards. Recall how fans including yourself was asking Self to fire Snacks after his drug incident had come to light. And we all saw how Self had handled that incident.
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Apples vs oranges.
And out of curiosity what makes the Maui event more of a once in a lifetime experience than the Bahamas?
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@KUSTEVE I’d love nothing more, I want to win the NC. Its about time now.
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I think @AsadZ has taken the discussion to a little different level. It’s worth having, quite frankly, regarding Bill Self. I think it really frames for most of us where we’re at – we just want improvement. We don’t want him fired. Not even close. We all (generally) like the guy. We know he represents our program well. And as @drgnslayr said, “be careful what you ask for”. Heck, look at the mediocrity two great programs in our present tourney in Maui have fallen into – UCLA and Indiana. However, fan bases do make title demands. Look at LSU in football. Running off Les Miles who has the #1 recruiting class for 2016. It is an incredible roll of the dice.
Again, I hope @AsadZ posts his thoughts regularly as the season goes on and is not dissuaded by those that take the “stop posting” approach. You, me, any of us, are no more KU fans than he simply because of his opinion. His fire Self opinion is a nice counterweight to a few of the Self worshippers we have here. @AsadZ said “But I will continue to demand improvement and accountability for Self.” Nothing wrong with that. Keep it up.
On BG, one correction that seems pretty obvious – @AsadZ said that @ralster said BG was “a locker room cancer.” @ralster said “Self is trying desperately to not let Brannen Greene turn into a locker room cancer.” Much different.
I point that out not to be nit-picky, but because I will take that leap. Locker room cancer. When, as a player, you bitch and moan in public, to the face of the coach, that’s not just pre-cancerous cells. It’s stage 1 at least. More like stage 2. Self chose the aggressive treatment.
I believe Self’s suspension of Greene is a tremendous message to the rest of the team. It sets the right tone. And it is unequivocal. It draws the right line, in my opinion. Is it “player friendly” in the day of the pampered CBB player? Could it hurt recruiting? Different question. But in the vacuum of winning a national title, it was absolutely the correct path.
As @Crimsonorblue22 said, “coach didn’t take that chance away, BG did”. When you walk into Walmart and steal a shirt, you take the chance that some overweight security guard pulls out his taser. You risk an apparent overreaction. You become a criminal.
Mouthing off to your coach as Greene did in a public manner is crossing that line.
Six games, of course, is harsh on its face. But three games would have meant no Maui as well. And could you really permit a kid suspended for insubordination to travel and enjoy? I don’t think so. And we don’t know what else has occurred. Whether there have been behind the scenes blowups, maybe in Self’s office. Pure speculation. My guess is that the duration of the suspension gives us insight.
And don’t be surprised if sometime next week Self says that he’s very proud of Brannen Greene for how he handled the suspension, that he’s really attended to his business the right way – and he reduces the suspension to four games or something like that. That would not be surprising to me. Actually, I think it will be a bit instructive on Greene’s standing. If this suspension goes the full 6 games, that will tell me things aren’t likely to ultimately reconcile. If it gets reduced, it tells me that Self, in a measured fashion, is working hard to discipline and reconcile. It would be the perfect tact on this, if Self wants this to reconcile – "if."
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So there isn’t a beach to hang out with teammates on in the Bahamas?
You haves used the term once in a lifetime on a couple of occasions…just trying to understand your logic.
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@SoftballDad2011 think we need to test that out!
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@AsadZ apparently they did NOT put tanning beds in the new apartments for the players.
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@SoftballDad2011 All venues are not the same, different feel & experience
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Fair enough
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I have been considering the Bahamas trip next year.
Would be completely out of character for me, but it’s been a rough few years, so by then it might be just what the dr ordered.
Guessing I will talk myself out of it by then…but we’ll see!
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@SoftballDad2011 Dude - if you’re physically able to do it - DO IT. (I left the “just” off of there, don’t want to advertise for the competition)
Life’s WAY too short to not have fun when you get the chance. If you’re short on money, borrow it, have a bake-sale or a carwash but just go. Please - you will never regret it.
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@nuleafjhawk and take me!
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@AsadZ You recall correctly that I (personally) think Snacks should have been fired, simply because I want illegal things not be assoc with the Univ. of KS, but maybe Self had more info than anything we publicly know…its his call.
Now, this time we are not talking about illegal activity from BGreene (we wont talk about his past suspensions for smoking pot)–> no, we are talking about an emotional kid, who cannot, cannot see the reason for his frustration is his own shortcomings in playing this game on both ends of the court.
I think 100% of all of us alums (&fans) just want BG to shine & contribute. There is no victory in seeing him fail or transfer.
One thing Self has made CRYSTAL clear during his 12 years at KU: he will never… Ever… be a coach who loses control of his team, like Bruce Weber, for example.
JRGiddens BOOTED. CJGile BOOTED. Malcontent Micah Downs (allowed to) TRANSFER. Homeboy Brady SUSPENDED. Galindo homesick, allowed to transfer. Naadir Tharpe BOOTED. Mario Little allowed to stay as Self balances discipline-father with compassionate-father. Tyshawn and EJ, both SUSPENDED, & got the msg. Royce Woolridge, malcontent, allowed to TRANSFER. CJ Henry, locker room cancer/malcontent TRANSFERRED, right when we were short of guards?..yes. Wasnt right for the team’s goals in several ways. Anrio Adams malcontent: TRANSFER. Quintrell Thomas: transfer.
@AsadZ I was there in April with about 8 guys asking Self Q&A session on anything/everything. He was asked about Naadir’s dismissal. He said Frank was supposed to be “this good” even in his freshman season, but Naadir was a bad influence both on/off the court, and “had to go”. He called Naadir a “good player for sure, but a bad leader, then with his acts, HAD to go. Had to go” (yes, he said it twice like that). He talked about IowaSt players, plays, and scout film breakdown…it is amazing the level of detail he knows even about opposing players. He has had humorous exchanges with G.Niang, & shared those with us. I cannot repeat what Niang said that made Self chuckle, due to adult locker room language, but it was hilarious. It was also clear Self had everything Hoiberg was doing dissected down to minute details.
What became clear to me, that after years, decades of coaching, Self loves players, sees them as pieces performing roles in his playstyle, and the recruiting game is always running in the background. But we’ve seen that he will not tolerate ONE player trying to disrupt a team trying to gain chemistry.
The fact that Self hit the EJECT button on fellow Oklahoman, and McDAA Giddens, taught me early on, that Self is old-school disciplinarian, and would expend a high-talent kid, rather than tolerate repeated team disruptions. BGreene continues to stupidly provide Self with disruptions, and the lockerroom eruption was over the top. See the pattern??? High-talent kid keeps being a problem. Doesnt know who is boss. Doesnt know, even as a g-d-mn junior what he’s to do on court & off court. Self called him out in Oct about “not getting the big picture”.
@AsadZ You cannot say “6 game suspension too harsh” in some vacuum, no, no, no. This is a culmination penalty, which even required BGreene to go nuclear in the lockkerroom for it to happen. Again, see BG’s own foot in own mouth, despite Self’s bootprints already on his ass, repeatedly.
And frankly, how bad was it to still be happening when Greene’s parents were summoned? You certainly have heard about Self selling family atmosphere & fellowship, yet what was BG doing by yelling “I was the best player on the floor!!” right in front of his teammates. He chose to kick them all, and kick his coach when the were down & sad after a loss. BG chose absolutely the wrong moment, & absolutely the wrong manner to gripe about playing time.
Beware the dangerous logic of taking a shred of actual truth (fact BG needs more mpg), and using that fact in a negative, destructive manner. No good will come of it. That shred of truth will be lost in the fallout of the bad action. BG sits now with NO mpg. By his own action, no less, and @AsadZ , even BG’s dad agrees with Self. But you dont, of course, because you are garnering attn by your flawed “dissent”. Flawed, because it goes against decades of coaching principles (cannot lose control of your team). Even Calipari’s OAD factory teams…he maintains control & has benched players. He talks about each player doing their job, trusting one another, and bldg team chem by March. I say he’s in control of those OADs, he’s proven that. I say Self should be allowed to run his team the way he sees fit.
You want to ask questions about the last 2-3 yrs? Ask Self about this roster. He will tell you. Its about each position performing the designated role. After 20+ yrs of coaching, the pieces in the system must perform their roles with efficiency. Execution, both ends of the floor. One piece starts squawking? Well, now that’s about 180-degrees off course from the mission of team unity, team chemistry, and team-level execution, isnt it?
What did Self say on Hawk Talk the day after loss to Mich St? He said “this team, once it comes together as a TEAM, has the experience and talent to be very, very good”. He didnt sound flustered, and was calm & easy-going with the fans calling in. You see he knows, just knows where this team is at.
Once the team saw BG’s reaction in the lockerroom, then saw Self’s punishment of BG–> now things are clear for the team. They are playing with passion. They just got shown what line you-dont-cross. You play for THIS coach. This coach has said he himself is nothing more than a “caretaker of the Kansas Legacy”. The stakes are high. Its about sooooo much more than BGreene. He is nothing but an expendable piece, IF he chooses not to fit in with Self’s greater construct.
@AsadZ my simple straightforward advice to you is to think big picture, not try to champion some troubled misfit…you concerned about the early exits in March? Well, what is Self or any coach trying to build from right now, in Nov??? Rotations, competence in teamplay & execution, and above all, team chemistry. That’s what will serve us better in March. BG can only see it from his view, thats why he’s way too young to be a head coach at a royalty program.
Big picture goals will not tolerate such a stark, almost unprecedented disruption from any player. Fact: if you play for this man, there are things you must and must not do…
Self’s way, or the highway (outta here).
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Well said.
