THE WORD IS OUT: SELF STILL AT .821 AT KANSAS
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.821.
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@jaybate-1.0 The .179 were BAD ones though…
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But he’s still trying to get better than .821.
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If he were a baseball player he’d be phenomenal.
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@jaybate-1.0 To do that he’s really got to learn from and improve upon that .179.
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The word is out: playing in Allen Fieldhouse provides the home team a significant advantage.
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The word is out: Dunking the ball is illegal at Kansas per the original rules of the game.
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@JRyman that was my complaint the entire MSU game, Both Perry and LL had some balls roll off the rim that should have been dunked.
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Agreed.
New rule.
First basket has to be a trey.
Second has to be a dunk.
Then Coach Bill gets to run whatever he wants.
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Word is out (or ancient news) just crowd the paint against KU.
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@jaybate-1.0 Yes, but in the “what have you done for me recently category,” HCBS is a more pedestrian .548 away from Allen the past 2 years. 12-9 in 14-15 and 11-9 in 13-14. 0-1 this year. In the past years, we were a great road team, mainly because defense travels and we were an elite defensive team that could get stops and overcome offensive sluggishness. Hasn’t really been the case the past couple of years - defensive efficiency/tempo metrics are well below prior years.
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“The word is out: playing in Allen Fieldhouse provides the home team a significant advantage.”
Hope we can still say that after the Kentucky visit.
Calipari may not be the best Xs and Os coach, but I bet he is preparing to sit his team down in the video room to show them what happened the last time Kentucky came to Lawrence…
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.821.
Hold that close and treasure it. It will give you solace in March when Bill’s team bows out to a less talented team.
sidenote: If you wish to mock my post and have a valid argument against it, then take it on head on. The point of the article is in March. Taking a sideswipe and saying ‘He’s .821’ or ‘He won 11 straight Big 12 titles’ is irrelevant to the article and to my (and quite a few other posters’) problem with Bill Self.
If .821 and 11 straight satisfies you, then fine, good for you. Maybe you’re a Cubs fan too. But I’m sorry you can’t simply accept the fact that not everyone shares your attitude and you feel the need to mock them.
My disappointment lies in repeated losses to less talented teams in the tournament. Losses that have become such a trend that multiple posters here recognize it and post ideas to solve the problem. And now it’s so obvious that we’re beginning to see commentary in other media outlets on the issue. Which is the whole point of my post. The Word is Out.
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Believe me, I WILL!!!
And I will hold this close too…
And this…
And this…
And what will you be holding?
Yeeeee Hawwwwww
I love the smell of trolls in the morning.
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@DCHawker said:
Yes, but
But in the “yes, but” category of rhetoric…
Yes, but in what has he done for us lately? He has won two conference titles the last two years and gotten into the Madness during his “down years.”
Next.
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@jaybate-1.0 As usual, you dodge the point of the post. Fine. Go ahead and wave your pictures. I’m sure you’d also wave them in the face of WSU, Stanford, Michigan, VCU, UNI, etc. And they’d reply, ‘Good for you! Enjoy those pics while you reminisce on your summer vacation. But you’ll excuse us now–we have work to do. We have another game to play.’
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@jaybate-1.0 They don’t remember the Ted Owens years, or all the years that Roy NEVER won a NC. It’s a lack of perspective.
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@KUinLA You honestly don’t think those schools you mentioned wouldn’t trade places with KU in a heart beat? Those school fall in and out of revelency, but KU is always in the running.
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1977–78 Kansas 24–5 13–1 1st NCAA First Round
1978–79 Kansas 18–11 8–6 T-2nd
1979–80 Kansas 15–14 7–7 T-4th
1980–81 Kansas 24–8 9–5 T-2nd NCAA Sweet Sixteen
1981–82 Kansas 13–14 4–10 7th
1982–83 Kansas 13–16
Here is Ted Owens last 6 years at KU. Think we’ve made any progress?
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@KUSTEVE I would respectfully suggest it IS a matter of perspective, not lack thereof. And, the perspective is the recent past and heightened expectations. I am well old enough to remember the Owens years. A few great players, a couple of really good teams and FFs in 71 and 74, but otherwise very up and down. First with Larry and then continuing with Roy and through HCBS, we’ve had an unprecedented run of consistency at a high level. While Roy didn’t get the NC, he got us to several FFs and had some of the teams that were the most enjoyable to watch and easy to root for. It many ways, HCBS elevated us even further. 6 30 win seasons in 7 years, a NC, a runner-up and a couple of E8s. He has had a system and recruited players that fit that system with great results.
We’re all spoiled rotten as a result. So, the angst expressed in the many posts and threads following MSU - and really on the heels of last year - seems to be from the perspective of an elevated perch - where we’ve been the past couple of decades and where we hope/expect to continue to be.
And, from that perspective, the last couple of years haven’t measured up. The most losses in a two year period during the Self era, along with early exits and some really bad losses. What everyone is struggling with, at least I am, is whether this an anomaly, or has it become a trend? Is it Self, changes in assistants, changes in the college game/recruiting environment (and failure to adapt to same), bad luck, or some combination of the above?
Self was a great hire and has demonstrated over time to be one of the best in the game. His record is a remarkable one and we should all be proud of what he has accomplished at KU. My concern is his “system” doesn’t work well in the OAD era. So, he either needs to change his approach to recruiting or adapt his offensive and defensive schemes to better fit the personnel. Playing amateur psychologist, my own view is that a lot of this is an overreaction to the loss to UK in the NC. He had a classic Self team - veteran and gritty, could score efficiently in the post, and shut down other teams in crunch time. But, he/we lost to a more talented team. I think he decided that he didn’t want to be “out-talented” by the other guy(s), and he started to aggressively and almost exclusively go after the OAD types. The problem is that his system requires time to learn and execute well - on both sides of the court. And, we know that he has a quick hook, so the younger guys rarely get much PT - Wiggins was really the exception. Now he/we’re in a box - it’s not clear that he/his system and OADs are a good match. And, if you’re going hard after the OADs and don’t hit on them, you’re left scrambling to get 3 stars and cast-offs from other teams, e.g, Mason, Graham, Traylor, Lucas, Black, Mickelson, Coleby, some of whom have been and will be really solid contributors, but they aren’t elite.
Hope springs eternal - perhaps Diallo will be cleared and will see some adjustments in Maui that suggest all will be right in the world again - at least in Jayhawk land - and all this sturm and drang will be a distant memory. RCJH.
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From Camp Destabilization course catalogue:
Site Destabilization 101–Learn to redirect responses and allege others of redirecting.
No prerequisite.
I’m really ok with this winning power 5 conference titles every year, making a run every third or 4th year and ringing out every 10 years.
I especially like never going to the NIT.
It’s all good. I wouldn’t swap places with Stanford hoops for all site destabilization course credits in the world, would you?
HOWLING!
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For some, but for others it troll-dom.
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You hit on a lot of great points.
I mentioned this earlier… we don’t have an identity right now with recruits. We have never been a “revolving door” team like UK and Duke. But yet, we are going after the revolving door players. And then our game strategy doesn’t jive with OADs. The “Self system” takes years to “get” for the players. The focus is on defense when the NBA teams are looking (mostly) for offense. Seniority obviously counts big in our system… what good will that do for a 1-year player?
Our coaching staff isn’t geared towards development any longer (after we lost Danny Manning)… so we aren’t geared towards the 4 and 3-star players either.
We really aren’t setup to recruit anyone except the unranked players that just want to say they play at Kansas.
If this was all my choice, I would go for the 3 and 4-star guys exclusively. Maybe even reject a player or two that has OAD potential just to send a message to all those guys that are ranked around 25 to 75. And then bring in real assistant coaches that are all about development. I’m thinking someone like Aaron Miles would be a good start. I’ve gone on and on about this before…
We look silly trying to compete with UK and Duke for the revolving door players. We must have the NCAA record for most recruits considering Kansas but picking another school. I’m starting to think we even look more silly with our McCarthy luxury dorms being used to house players ranked 100+… I can just imagine how easy it is for other recruiters to easily slam Kansas and have the recruits buy in to it all.
I hate to be so negative… but this is what we are going through.
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I never feel spoiled rotten. I feel we are accomplishing what hard work deserves and working to get better.
I have no concern that Self’s system is a problem. Give Self a long stack like UK and Duke had and its ring city. Give him and his system the talent Duke and UK have had and he would have added several rings.
As James Brown sang…
I FEEL GOOD
LIKE I KNEW THAT I WOULD!
I FEEL NICE
LIKE SUGAR AND SPICE!
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@KUSTEVE Bill has won ONE NC. I haven’t had time to look up numbers, but I would bet money that Roy’s teams went deeper into the NCAA than Bill’s every year but one. Roy was a couple of injuries, a couple of lousy calls and a couple of lucky breaks away from about 4 NC’s at KU. He had far superior teams. Emphasis on TEAMS.
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@jaybate-1.0 said:
I especially like never going to the NIT.
And losing to Robert Morris in the first round.
@nuleafjhawk said:
@KUSTEVE Bill has won ONE NC. I haven’t had time to look up numbers, but I would bet money that Roy’s teams went deeper into the NCAA than Bill’s every year but one. Roy was a couple of injuries, a couple of lousy calls and a couple of lucky breaks away from about 4 NC’s at KU. He had far superior teams. Emphasis on TEAMS.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but HCBS owns Ol’ Roy at UNC.
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@jaybate-1.0 You keep saying give Self a long stack and he’ll win a ring (I don’t doubt that), but also talk about the embargo diverting recruits elsewhere. How does Self get a long stack when the embargo prevents that?
When you have a blockade around you, you have to find a new strategy that will work. In this case, going after the 25-75 kids that aren’t part of the funneling is how to do that, but those kids are no longer Self’s top priorities. The twins, T-Rob, Cole, Tyshawn, EJ, Ellis, Releford, and so on are the kids Self needs to focus on because they aren’t big enough priority players for the embargo to have an impact on.
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Exactly!
Or that those schools don’t know what their all-time mark against the Jayhawks is?
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@nuleafjhawk Roy is like a former girlfriend - you remember her fondly the longer you’re away from her. Get around her again, and you’ll remember why she is a former. My ass was chapped with Roy when he left. The misses on the big stage, the godly reverence for all things Dean, including limiting our recruiting for 15 years. The way he left…the promises he made which he didn’t mean, and didn’t keep … Yeah, I loved Roy’s teams, but I love Bill’s teams , too. And we’re every bit as relevant as we were then. Actually more so in some ways.
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You got me excited by framing the issue correctly but then you leaped to a simplistic solution: the silver bullet of 25-75.
When Self is unable to sign three draft choice grade players at the three cornerstone positions of basketball: 1, 3, and 5, and have them developed and ready, there is no single grade of player to sign that overcomes that disadvantage, when UK and Duke do it every year, and, often sign 3-7 more.
There is rarely a silver bullet in strategy for structural obstacles amidst comtext.
So: Self is dealing with this on many levels, exactly as he should.
He has added two offences to his high-low: Good Ball and Bad Ball. These are intended to allow him to play away from the 1, 3, and 5 in a way the conventional High low does not.
He has moved to shooters, but plays away from them in games, when the law of averages says they won’t be hot enough to win with.
He has moved younger with assistants in Jerrance and Aaron.
He has move abroad to Hill and Fratello.
He has moved to summer play to get his team more development time.
He has emphasized weight training.
He has taken more risks on long shots like Mason (low ranked conversion from 2 to 1) and Diallo (clearance risk).
And he has to make every move anticipating the apparent embargo will then counter his counter move.
The goal is a moving target.
And bottom line the real mission has to be to find a way to break the apparent embargo and sign draft choices at the 1, 3, AND 5 and have them on the floor and ready to play, not a year away.
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N I K E
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@KUSTEVE I really like the “old girfriend” analogy - it’s a good one. I disagree about the current team(s) being more relevant though. My memory isn’t that great, but I don’t remember Roy’s teams winning 30+ games during the season and getting buggy whipped in the first or second round of the NCAA’s on a regular basis… Roy’s teams could get a big lead, expand on it, and win by 25-35 points on a regular basis. If Bill’s teams get a 15 point lead, that means time to put on the brakes, take a Gatorade break and lose by 5.
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Bate, I really enjoy your posts however I don’t understand the reasoning behind this post. Your defense of Self is getting old. While Self is still .821 at KU look at the trend for the past few seasons, going downhill. Self has been a great coach but it is clear that he is losing the edge - continued recruiting misses, early tourney exits to lower quality teams, drop in winning %, increase in home losses etc. And my biggest issue with Self is with his Rigid nature and inflexibility. For the past two years he has failed to use his talent to the advantage while forcing the players to play with his way. With Self its like My Way or the Highway.
After the WUG I was hopeful that he will make a change in his style by allowing more freedom to his players when he said something like I learned a lot from the experience however so far its the same old Self. Extremely Frustrating. This has been the biggest issue for me with Self and I wont be surprised if other fans feel likewise. And Self has to be blamed for the BG fiasco currently happening. Self is hurting KU BB.
At this point KU BB and Self will be better off if he moves on. KU BB need a fresh start.
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And playing at the Dean Dome provides UNC a significant advantage.
And playing at Rupp arena provides UK a significance advantage.
And playing at Cameron provides Duke a significant advantage.
And playing at Hilton provides ISU a significant advantage.
…and water is wet…
There is a reason why it is called home advantage…
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Roy’s NCAA Tournaments
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Bill’s avg wins per season is around 29 games…as per Dickie V on every KU broadcast he does.
Bill plays a tougher schedule, largely because the Big 12 is now a double round robin, whereas before it was home and away vs the northern tier of the Big 12 and a single game against the southern tier.
But Bill’s non conference schedule is also tougher. Roy liked playing directional schools early in the year.
Can’t speak as to why we don’t blow teams out now like we did with Roy. We are no longer a transition heavy offense with an aggressive full court press defense that led to run outs, which is probably part of it. .
I have also wondered if Bill manages the game to keep it close so as to keep the pressure on, but I have nothing to support that.
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@AsadZ said:
Bate, I really enjoy your posts however I don’t understand the reasoning behind this post. Your defense of Self is getting old. While Self is still .821 at KU look at the trend for the past few seasons, going downhill. Self has been a great coach but it is clear that he is losing the edge - continued recruiting misses, early tourney exits to lower quality teams, drop in winning %, increase in home losses etc. And my biggest issue with Self is with his Rigid nature and inflexibility. For the past two years he has failed to use his talent to the advantage while forcing the players to play with his way. With Self its like My Way or the Highway.
After the WUG I was hopeful that he will make a change in his style by allowing more freedom to his players when he said something like I learned a lot from the experience however so far its the same old Self. Extremely Frustrating. This has been the biggest issue for me with Self and I wont be surprised if other fans feel likewise. And Self has to be blamed for the BG fiasco currently happening. Self is hurting KU BB.
At this point KU BB and Self will be better off if he moves on. KU BB need a fresh start.
Increase in home losses?
He lost in Allen Field House 6 times between his arrival and the end of the 2006-2007…he has lost three times at home since 2/3/07 and was undefeated at home last year…
And as a college head coach it is completely his call if he chooses to Make it his way or the highway…after all he is ultimately responsible for anything that happens under his watch…
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@SoftballDad2011 wouldn’t we agree that most recruits know selfs system including his passion for D, before they come here?
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@SoftballDad2011 Wow - that’s some great research - thank you!
The thing that sticks out to ME about those stats are that Roy’s teams had two “bad” losses; UTEP in '92 and Rhode Island in '98. “Bad” meaning upsets. All tournament losses are bad…
Self’s teams had five “bad” losses; Bucknell in’05, Bradley in '06, Northern Iowa in '10, Stanford in '14 and Wichita State (yes, f-ing WSU) in '15. A lot of us would throw in Michigan in '13, when we blew a 98 point lead (something like that), but it was a Regional Semifinal game…same could be said for Roy’s '97 loss to Arizona - Regional Semifinal game that we should have won, but “upset”, I don’t know…
I don’t know what the deal is, but anyone that says that Self doesn’t do something different in the tournament than in the regular season has got their head in the sand or is just not paying attention. I see the “play not to lose” mentality in many games, even in the regular season. How about just getting a lead and then keep doing what you’ve been doing to GET that lead?
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@SoftballDad2011 Go ahead and keeping defending him , you are most likely satisfied with the tourney early exits too. I am not. I am tired of it.
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Take your personal vendetta and go troll somewhere else.
You have been a member of this board for two years and only have about 90 posts. About a third of them have come in the past week while calling for Self’s head.
Pretty obvious you have an ax to grind.
But as an FYI if you are going to troll, it is a lot more effective if you at least put in enough time and effort to get your facts accurate, so that you don’t show your true colors when you get your panties in a bunch and have to redirect the discussion when someone calls you on your inaccuracies.
No not satisfied with the early exits. Just enough of a realist to know that from a historical perspective what we are experiencing is nothing unusual for us or for any other team in America.
astute enough to know that no other coach could have done what we have done with the cards that have been played.
And enough of a KU fan to support our coach and our team through good and bad.
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@jaybate-1.0 said:
Site Destabilization 101
So it’s destabilization that’s bothering you? Making the site a little uncomfortable for you? Getting that queasy feeling in your stomach? Sorry to rock the boat. I, for one, enjoy the differing viewpoints on this board. Maybe you should try some dramamine, lol.
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I don’t disagree. Good points.
Over the long haul, a strong defensive mind set will win a lot of games.
But on any given day you might run in to a team that is so hot from the floor or so effective at executing their game plan that you have to be able to out score them.
Ali F. and Nothrrn Iowa was a great example of that. They were a good team, but on that given day they were so hot that they could have beaten anyone.
That is the beauty and the agony of the NCAA tournament. It is a six game season with short window in which to game plan (get the players adequately schooled) for personnel and schemes you aren’t familiar with.
I too get frustrated. To me, a great team uses every available tool in their tool belt when conditions warrant.
We don’t do that well.
Coach Self is a system guy who leads with defense… In an 18 game conference season - especially in a double round robin format - that grind it out mentality works because most teams in the conference can’t win on the road and because of famialiarity every coach knows what the other coach is going to do before it happens. And if you have a bad loss or two, the law of averages have time to play out. And that favors Self’s game plan and approach.
In a one game winner take all format, a system guy will get burned by a hot team, a better executing team or unexpected game plan, because all we have to go to is our bread and butter…and on some days that isn’t going to be good enough. Especially on a day when we can’t throw the ball in an ocean, let alone make a basket (like vs MSU on Tuesday).
I thought Coach Self would become more flexible after gimmick defenses allowed us to steal wins from Purdue and NC State in our 2012 run…games that we didn’t deserve to win, but did because he caught them by surprise when he threw the triangle in.
But for whatever reason, he hasn’t. I used to think he didn’t do those things in the regular season so that there would be no tape on it for other teams to study so that we could use it in the tournament.
But now I just think Bill Self’s confidence in his system gives him the Coach Hayes syndrome that said everyone knows what we are going to do…but we are going to do it so well they can’t stop us.
The OAD movement made this less effective because those guys don’t stick around long enough to truly learn the nuances of the approach to execute it well enough.
But I also think the OAD movement has caused a change in the mindset of the typical 50-100 ranked kids.
No longer do these guys have the patience or willingness to come to a school like KU because of its history and sit on the bench for 2-3 years until it is their turn. Most of them want immediate gratification, so they go to an Alabama or a Mississippi State where the can get immediate playing time.
That creates a real dilemna for Self. OADs don’t stick around long enough and he can’t get enough talented 3-4 year players who are willing to work hard, learn their roles and earn their playing time to keep the pipeline full of system guys that can execute well enough to make unstoppable.
Plus because of the greater distribution of talent there is more parity now than ever before, which makes apparent upsets in the NCAA tournament even more likely.
Frustrating, no doubt.
But the fact we have done what we have done and remained consistently successful despite the change in the landscape of college basketball is a testament to Coach Self.
The girl friend analogy offered early about Roy Williams is a great one, because I would contend that while he was here that he was just as much of a system guy and just as stubborn as Bill is. It is just that those memories have faded and we now only remember the big picture stuff
I get frustrated. I cuss at the TV. I cuss at Bill Self too.
But at the end of the day I do think what he has done is incredible. He is never going to be satisfied with three or four years of mediocrity in an effort to load up for a deep tournament run every four or five years. He is going to get the guys he can get and he is going to run his system because he know that it will win 80% of the time and give him a chance to advance in the tournament every year.
I admire that.
I am a KU Fan who is estatic with the blue blood heritage here. And the consistent excellence that we can rely on as KU Fans.
And I see no no reason to run off someone that has helped keep us there.
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@AsadZ I share your frustrations w/ Bill as much as anyone, but it’s WAY too early to be calling for his head. Although I’ve posted that it wouldn’t bother me too much if he moved on, I’d be more happy to see him change and adapt his game.
Sacking Bill for anything less than a total collapse this year (like a losing record, or a majority player revolt, a la BG, or some type of scandal) would only serve to make the University look bad.
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Enjoy enjoy pathetic attempts at site destabilization. Often fascinating to watch inept technique. Fun to laugh at.
Rock chalk!
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@jaybate-1.0 Certainly seems to have gotten your goat, hasn’t it?
Don’t destabilize the site! Don’t destabilize the site!
Ohhhhhhhhh!
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@SoftballDad2011 Yeah right and now you start personal attacks. Its time you take off your HCBS glasses off and look in the mirror.
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“START” being the key word in your post that possesses a clear lack of understanding Of the concept of cause and effect.
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I’ll never understand this idea that because things were bad forty years ago we should be ok with falling short of our present goal (a national championship) every year, or at best, failing to even make a respectable run in the tournament. I don’t understand how winning three titles since the Great Depression should make us feel ok about seeing constant trends that lead to our team not living up to expectations. UConn’s won, what, 4 national championships in 20 years? UNC three in 20 years? Duke 5? Kentucky 3?
Do you know how many conference titles Calipari has won at UK since he arrived off the top of your head? I don’t. But I know how many Final Fours he’s been to in that time…
